I could potentially offer streetwise for the theurgic brigand in lieu of trapfinding. Which of those two abilities do you think would you prefer to have?
I think Streetwise. Definitely has that urban, Aladdin-stealing-fruit feel.
And for the record, my vote would be to keep the BAB as is. This class feels very powerful. Something else would probably have to be lowered to keep it balanced.
I can see how a stealth specialist in a class that's already pretty great at stealth might be a little underwhelming. Your suggestion gave me an idea to work with, I'll let you know when I hammer out the details.
And for the record, my vote would be to keep the BAB as is. This class feels very powerful. Something else would probably have to be lowered to keep it balanced.
IIRC only the order that really heavily draws on the BAB is the ghastly claw. Other than that order (which I admit is probably the strongest order in a combat focused game), it just adds a little utility to a beguiler who would otherwise be knocked out of combat by an enemy with serious magical defenses (ex. antimagic fields, high SR). With the poor BAB most beguilers would be close to useless against such a foe since they can't hit very hard and they won't be able to keep themselves out of danger like a wizard or sorcerer would be able to. This extra combat proficiency does bump the beguiler up from something like a high tier 3 ranking to a mid tier 2 ranking, but tier 2 is really where a full caster belongs.
Honestly I really think the higher BAB would be far less destabilizing than some of your recent suggestions like sneakspell which increases the (untyped) bonus to basically all a beguiler's spells from +2 to +4 (this is the equivalent of giving them at least four free feats: spell focus and greater spell focus for illusion and enchantment, while still letting them take those feats for further boosts); streetwise which provides massive boosts to four of an already skill heavy class's skills; or master of deception which boosts three of the beguiler's most powerful skills without even taking away trapfinding.
I don't mean to seem rude/aggressive, but it really feels like alot of your additions to this thread have been along the lines of 'I worry this class might be too powerful, but here are some incredibly overpowered goodies I'd like added to my favorite order.'
I don't mean to seem rude/aggressive, but it really feels like alot of your additions to this thread have been along the lines of 'I worry this class might be too powerful, but here are some incredibly overpowered goodies I'd like added to my favorite order.'
That's a little out of line. I'm open to all suggestions here and I'm the one who gets to determine which ones are worthwhile for this conversion. Please do try to keep things civil here.
Here are some updates for the Arcane Hand and the Baleful Shadow (previously the Obscured Step). The Baleful Shadow would likely only be put in place if I increased the BAB (which I'm still not certain about).
Order of the Arcane Hand:
Order of the Arcane Hand
The order of the arcane hand represents the raw magical talent of the guild. These beguilers are masters of magical deception and employ a wider range of spells than most other orders. Arcane hand beguilers may also maintain memberships in local mages’ guilds and, when the beguilers’ guild requires a public face, are often considered the most upright of the guild’s members. In order to maintain this illusion of trustworthiness, the arcane hand rarely permits entry to beguilers of evil alignments.
Preferred Alignments: Any non-evil.
Class Skills: Knowledge (all).
Bonus Spells: 1st—Beguiling Gift1, 2nd—Steal Voice2, 3rd—Arcane Concordance1, 4th—Wreath of Blades3, 5th—Mirage Arcana, 6th—Unwilling Shield1, 7th—Deflection1, 8th—Prediction of Failure2, 9th—Communal Mind Blank3.
Order Powers: Magical deception is at the core of the arcane hand’s power. By exploiting this proficiency she can easily protect her own spells from outside disruption and can even siphon the arcane powers of other spellcasters.
Arcane Bond (Ex or Sp): At 1st level, a beguiler gains the wizard’s arcane bond class feature. She must immediately choose between a familiar or bonded object. Once she makes this choice it is permanent and cannot be changed.
False Theurgy (Ex): At 7th level, a beguiler may use a swift action to adjust the verbal and somatic components of her next spell to mimic those of another spell of the same level. Any creature using Spellcraft or any other means to identify the spell she is casting believes it to be the other spell instead.
This trick renders her spell immune to the normal method of counterspelling, though dispel magic or a similar effect still works normally. Once the spell takes effect, it can be identified and dealt with normally.
Stealspell (Su): At 13th level, a beguiler can steal arcane spells from her foes and add them to her list of spells known for a brief time. She can steal a prepared spell or spell known from another creature within 30 feet of her with a ranged touch attack as a full-round action requiring concentration. The target receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the beguiler's level + her Intelligence modifier) to negate the effect. The beguiler can use this ability once per day at 13th level and she gains an additional daily use for every two beguiler levels she gains thereafter (to a maximum of four daily uses at 19th level).
The beguiler may name a spell to steal, but if the target does not possess the spell, the ability is wasted with no effect. Otherwise the spell stolen is random, but it always of the highest level that the beguiler can cast, if possible. The target loses the prepared spell or spell known and the beguiler adds it to her spell list for 1 minute per beguiler level, after which it reverts to the original recipient. While stolen, the beguiler can cast the spell using her available spell slots. This does not consume the stolen spell, however the spell immediately reverts to its original owner if the beguiler attempts to steal another spell during this duration.
Aspect of Mastery (Su): At 20th level an arcane hand beguiler’s body glimmers as arcane power illuminates her hands and eyes while her soul becomes a conduit for raw arcane energy. She can add any metamagic feats that she knows to her spells without increasing their casting time, although she must still expend higher-level spell slots. She also gains the benefits of a constant mind blank spell cast upon her.
When her aspect is visible she receives a +5 luck bonus to Spellcraft checks.
Order of the Baleful Shadow:
Order of the Baleful Shadow
The order of the baleful shadow employs a bizarre, dark magic to empower both their arcane and martial prowess. These beguilers harness the power of the plane of shadow into powerful strikes, to move nimbly about the field of battle, and to hide themselves from prying eyes. Baleful shadow beguilers often maintain close contact with local thieves' guilds and other organized criminal enterprises, though they rarely expose their magical nature openly.
Preferred Alignments: Any.
Class Skills: Knowledge (dungeoneering), and Knowledge (planes).
Order Powers: Infusing her masteries with the essence of shadow makes an obscured step beguiler a fierce presence on and off of the battlefield.
Shadow Strike (Su): At 1st level, a beguiler can strike a vital spot for extra damage against an opponent who is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack.
The beguiler's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). This extra damage is 1d4 at 1st level, and increases by 1d4 every four beguiler levels thereafter. Should the beguiler score a critical hit with a shadow strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as a shadow strike only if the target is within 30 feet.
In any condition of illumination other than bright light, a beguiler is able to empower her shadow strike with dark magic. While making a shadow strike when she is located within these lighting conditions, she uses d6s to roll shadow strike damage instead of d4s.
At 9th level, a beguiler's ranged attack counts as a shadow strike if the target is within 60 feet.
Entangling Darkness (Sp): At 7th level, a beguiler can see through any darkness or deeper darkness spell she casts without penalty (including those cast as a spell-like ability). Three times per day a beguiler can cause all creatures except for her within these spells are entangled unless using freedom of movement or a similar effect. She must choose to use this ability before casting the spell.
Shadow Magic (Su): At 13th level, a beguiler can empower her spellcasting with the power of her shadow strike. The extra damage of her shadow strike is added to any casting of shadow evocation or greater shadow evocation against a single target who would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). If the illusory evocation affects multiple targets, the beguiler may appoint one foe as the subject of the shadow strike. The target does not suffer the extra damage of the shadow strike if he successfully disbelieves the beguiler's evocation.
The beguiler fiercely empowers this shadow strike as she channels the raw power of the plane of shadow. Regardless of lighting conditions, the beguiler uses d8s to roll shadow strike damage instead of d4s for her evocation.
Aspect of Mastery (Su): At 20th level a baleful shadow beguiler’s skin darkens and her body is shrouded by a black mist which flows off of her shoulders and back as her soul becomes one with the plane of shadow. In any condition of illumination other than bright light, she blends into the shadows, giving her concealment (20% miss chance). A beguiler can suspend or resume this protection as a free action. She also gains the ability to see perfectly in natural or magical darkness, as well as resistance to cold 10, and DR 5/slashing.
When her aspect is visible she receives a +5 luck bonus to Stealth checks.
I admit I'm still fairly new to Pathfinder and even tabletop gaming in general. I don't entirely understand the full scope of different bonuses.
I only suggested Sneakspell because it seemed like the Pathfinder translation of the 3.5 bonuses. I honestly thought it would be less powerful in the long run without the ability to overcome SR and the DC was a boost from +2 to +3, not +4.
I also never meant to imply the other abilities I mentioned should be added without consequence to any of the orders/archetypes. I assumed it would replace trapfinding or possibly be another option for a talent, but mostly wanted to just pass along relevant ideas to ertw for him to make the call.
My motivation has been to help ertw to repay him for all of the hard work he's done. Most of my suggestions have been more for Theurgic Brigand because that's the archetype I've been studying the most.
I apologize for kind of being the noob that jumps in the middle of a thread throwing unqualified ideas into an already mostly stable build. I appreciate the apology, but your criticism was not without merit.
I'll back off to keep the thread clean. I'll PM ertw if I think of anything significant. Sorry again, everyone.
It wasn't my intention to chase you out of the thread, I'm really sorry. I had just had a bad day and ended up taking it out on you. It was inappropriate, it was uncalled for, and I apologize to you again. You have had some really great ideas too, like the unique brigand tallents. I really don't want you to feel unwelcome to post in this thread because I stupidly snapped at you about something you had every right to do. Please don't go, this thread as a whole will be the poorer for less viewpoints.
I can't disagree with that; the order was originally written to provide an alternate apostasy besides the shambling bones, but I really liked some of the unique things it had to offer. I still think I'll leave it in, even if it's just to give the bad guy's some neat tools to cause trouble.
Dreaming puppet is really the only thing unique to the restless mind, you could potentially turn this into a beguiler spell and scrap the weak order. It's similar to magic jar, but if it can be used at distance, that's a pretty powerful tool. You might distinguish it from magic jar further by shortening the duration to something like 5 minutes per level and cutting out the search phase altogether (only works on targets the caster names). It would probably fit in as a 7th or 8th level spell.
Dreaming puppet is really the only thing unique to the restless mind, you could potentially turn this into a beguiler spell and scrap the weak order. It's similar to magic jar, but if it can be used at distance, that's a pretty powerful tool. You might distinguish it from magic jar further by shortening the duration to something like 5 minutes per level and cutting out the search phase altogether (only works on targets the caster names). It would probably fit in as a 7th or 8th level spell.
That's a distinct possibility. Hmm, I'll have to think on that for a while. It might make a little less clutter so I could add a little more equipment (since there seems to be plenty of interest there).
Did you have a chance to check out the order updates I posted yesterday? I'd be interested in hearing your take on them.
This +1 furyborn sap calls upon the rage that surges through the darkened alleys of an urban ghetto. When successfully concealed using Sleight of Hand, the wielder of a slumlord's convincer can draw it as an immediate action to deliver an attack of opportunity. That opponent is treated as flat-footed against the attack with the concealed weapon.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armour, rage; Cost 9,200 gp
Dreaming puppet is really the only thing unique to the restless mind, you could potentially turn this into a beguiler spell and scrap the weak order. It's similar to magic jar, but if it can be used at distance, that's a pretty powerful tool. You might distinguish it from magic jar further by shortening the duration to something like 5 minutes per level and cutting out the search phase altogether (only works on targets the caster names). It would probably fit in as a 7th or 8th level spell.
That's a distinct possibility. Hmm, I'll have to think on that for a while. It might make a little less clutter so I could add a little more equipment (since there seems to be plenty of interest there).
Did you have a chance to check out the order updates I posted yesterday? I'd be interested in hearing your take on them.
I glanced over them briefly and they both looked very interesting. I'd want to take a closer look at their particulars before I gave my full comments but right now I'm in the middle of exams. I might be able to give more comments in a few days.
The baleful shadow seems to be an odd case of balancing. The decreased dice, slower rate of getting more dice and lack of a flanking option make the sneak attack option significantly depowered from the rogue version. However, it should be easy enough for one of these beguilers to ensure he's in shadow and his enemy is flat footed most of the time at higher levels, so that builds it up a bit. I think it would still be fairly balanced if you were to increase the new dice to one every three levels instead of one every four. I can't help but wonder if maybe it would work better as a "study for one round then attack flat footed" attack with damage dice boosted to 1d8 in bright light, 1d12 in dim light/darkness and 2d8 for shadow evocations. This provides the same average damage on a per round basis and keeps a beguiler from just dropping sneak attacks every round by swift feinting.
I'd recommend a stated duration on the entangling ability since deeper darkness casts can last for quite a long time.
Shadow magic is pretty creative, since most of the evocations that would be used are save for half type spells rather than attack spells a multiclassed rogue-sorcerer-type character would have access to for sneak attacking. Did you intend this ability to have the same 30/60 ft. range as the shadow strike ability? If so you might want to mention that explicitly.
The baleful shadow seems to be an odd case of balancing. The decreased dice, slower rate of getting more dice and lack of a flanking option make the sneak attack option significantly depowered from the rogue version. However, it should be easy enough for one of these beguilers to ensure he's in shadow and his enemy is flat footed most of the time at higher levels, so that builds it up a bit. I think it would still be fairly balanced if you were to increase the new dice to one every three levels instead of one every four. I can't help but wonder if maybe it would work better as a "study for one round then attack flat footed" attack with damage dice boosted to 1d8 in bright light, 1d12 in dim light/darkness and 2d8 for shadow evocations. This provides the same average damage on a per round basis and keeps a beguiler from just dropping sneak attacks every round by swift feinting.
That might invite problems if people are playing with massive damage rules, since it wouldn't be too hard to average 50 damage with one of those upgraded strikes.
The massive damage rules are a little different in pathfinder than they were in D&D. It takes a hit equal to half your hp to trigger the massive damage condition now instead of the flat 50, so it would be fairly unlikely to trigger even with the doubled extra damage.
Woops, hadn't realized they had changed that one since we don't use it. I've got my last exam this evening (currently putting off some last minute studying), so I should be able to leave my thoughts this weekend.
Apparently my timing is awesome. Ive been thinking about looking into conversions for about five months now, but only just found that I actually needed it. I'm honestly loving the work, especially since this makes my life a hell of a lot easier XD I'm converting pretty much the most badass Beguiler to a Pathfinder campaign.
I can't help but wonder if maybe it would work better as a "study for one round then attack flat footed" attack with damage dice boosted to 1d8 in bright light, 1d12 in dim light/darkness and 2d8 for shadow evocations. This provides the same average damage on a per round basis and keeps a beguiler from just dropping sneak attacks every round by swift feinting.
I'm not keen on the idea of bumping the extra shadow evocation damage up to 10d8 (or 14d8 if its progression is increased) since it's primarily limited by spells per day rather than by the action economy. I might consider a study round with the every third level progression, but right now I like the simplicity of the way it is.
In order to offset BAB progression increase, skills per level have been decreased to 4 + Int and the following skills are no longer class skills: Appraise, Climb, Swim.
Specified that beguiler's spellcasting does not count as qualification for feats or traits that provide spells from other spell lists.
Added pass without trace and dreaming puppet to the spell list and description of the latter at the end of the document.
Stealspell added to arcane hand, aspect of mastery updated to include constant mind blank in lieu of using spells slots in place of item charges.
Order of baleful shadow replaces obscured step, significant changes to all order powers.
Ghastly claw adds a save to paralyzing strike, restrictions added to spell kill. Aspect of mastery weakened.
Order of the restless mind removed.
Wandering heart aspect of mastery altered: DR changed to 10/piercing, once per day dimension door replaced with ability to change form as per alter self.
Favoured class options added (updated since last post to reflect changes to baleful shadow and restless mind).
New talents for theurgic brigand as discussed on previous page.
Sylvan added as bonus language for elusive wildling.
Changes to set bonus for baleful shadow and ghastly claw.
Two new weapons added to magic items: razor of the drakeslayer, and slumlord's convincer.
Kinda bummed to see the skills per level lowered to 4 since part of the reason this class caught my eye initially was for its skill monkey applicability. Obviously the spells make up for any lack in skill, but IMO that high functionality for non-lethal alternatives was one of the staples of the original class. Not saying it wasn't a wise choice for balance, just disappointed to see it go.
Love the other changes, though. Thank you for the sap and integration of some of my other suggestions.
I've had a chance to look over the changes and I have a few comments.
I see the logic in the decreasing of skill ranks since it's not a major hindrance to the beguiler still being a top notch skill monkey, but I think this may be a bit of an issue for the archetypes (since they're Cha casters rather than Int casters). I'd recommend keeping the 6+Int progression for the theurgic brigand at least (since it's more rogue-like than the elusive wildling).
The arcane hand changes look really great except for the typo Penumbral Shadow already pointed out.
A few issues with baleful shadow. 1) Have you considered adding shadow weapon to the list of spells effected by shadow magic? It seems like it would fit the theme. 2) The duration of the entangling darkness ability seems a little long to me, I'd cut it down to 1/4 the beguiler's level. 3) If it's your intention to limit shadow magic by way of spells per day, you probably need to think about how metamagic interacts with the ability. If they are allowed to work with the ability that's every cast between spell level 5th and 9th that could be used with the ability, which is not an insubstantial amount.
The spell kill of the ghastly claw may also benefit from thoughts about metamagic like shadow magic.
I think you made some really good choices with regards to the wandering heart capstone.
Most of the favored class options look good. I'd reduce the drow option to +1/4 rounds to match my suggestion above.
I had a thought about the stolen knowledge ability: since the bard spell list often gives early entry on many wizard/sorcerer spells, you should add some specifics about whether or not he can learn a spell that's already on his list (only at a lower level).
You still haven't discussed unrooting for the elusive wildling, did you decide against that change?
The two new weapons are really cool. Small nitpick: a drake isn't a magical beast, it's type is dragon.
I think the material components for dreaming puppet might be a bit too cheap. Even at 100 gp per HD that's only about 2000 gp for a max level character (which is far cheaper than most spells that effect such high level creatures).
Altogether I think these changes are really great and the conversion is definitely getting close to a nicely balanced finished product.
Thank you both for your comments. I hadn't thought about the change in casting stat when I decreased the skills and I'm definitely on board with returning the skills per level for the archetypes. Out of curiosity, would you just do the theurgic brigand or both archetypes?
LT Silverstar wrote:
A few issues with baleful shadow. 1) Have you considered adding shadow weapon to the list of spells effected by shadow magic? It seems like it would fit the theme. 2) The duration of the entangling darkness ability seems a little long to me, I'd cut it down to 1/4 the beguiler's level. 3) If it's your intention to limit shadow magic by way of spells per day, you probably need to think about how metamagic interacts with the ability. If they are allowed to work with the ability that's every cast between spell level 5th and 9th that could be used with the ability, which is not an insubstantial amount.
The spell kill of the ghastly claw may also benefit from thoughts about metamagic like shadow magic.
I had actually planned on including the shadow weapon in with the original shadow stike ability as an automatic d6 damage die, I guess it slipped my mind when I was writing it up.
I'll decrease the duration of the entanglement (for the favoured class option, too).
That's a good catch about the metamagic. To limit their uses, I'll make a note that they cannot be used in conjunction with metamagic feats.
LT Silverstar wrote:
I had a thought about the stolen knowledge ability: since the bard spell list often gives early entry on many wizard/sorcerer spells, you should add some specifics about whether or not he can learn a spell that's already on his list (only at a lower level).
Another good point about stolen knowledge, I'll make a note that it cannot be used to learn a spell already on the beguiler's spell list at a lower level.
LT Silverstar wrote:
You still haven't discussed unrooting for the elusive wildling, did you decide against that change?
I did forget the unrooting discussion, I'll fix that.
LT Silverstar wrote:
The two new weapons are really cool. Small nitpick: a drake isn't a magical beast, it's type is dragon.
Well that's what I get for not doublechecking my facts. Razor of the Worgslayer it is.
LT Silverstar wrote:
I think the material components for dreaming puppet might be a bit too cheap. Even at 100 gp per HD that's only about 2000 gp for a max level character (which is far cheaper than most spells that effect such high level creatures).
Where would you say the price of the components would be fair? 100 gp per HD? 500 gp? More?
Thank you both for your comments. I hadn't thought about the change in casting stat when I decreased the skills and I'm definitely on board with returning the skills per level for the archetypes. Out of curiosity, would you just do the theurgic brigand or both archetypes?
I'd say just the theurgic brigand, they're closer to rogues and bards which have more skills. The elusive wildlings are more like druids which make do with a 4+Int skill progression.
Ertw wrote:
Where would you say the price of the components would be fair? 100 gp per HD? 500 gp? More?
I'd say somewhere in the middle. 200-250 gp per HD.
I'd say just the theurgic brigand, they're closer to rogues and bards which have more skills. The elusive wildlings are more like druids which make do with a 4+Int skill progression.
Alright, I've returned the old skill ranks per level to the theurgic brigand.
LT Silversar wrote:
I'd say somewhere in the middle. 200-250 gp per HD.
I'll change the material components to 250 gp per HD.
edit: just uploaded revised files, same links as above.
I see the logic in the decreasing of skill ranks since it's not a major hindrance to the beguiler still being a top notch skill monkey, but I think this may be a bit of an issue for the archetypes (since they're Cha casters rather than Int casters). I'd recommend keeping the 6+Int progression for the theurgic brigand at least (since it's more rogue-like than the elusive wildling).
Obviously I'm biased, but these were my thoughts as well.
Question: The shadow strike ability of the baleful shadow doesn't mention anything about immunity, are creatures immune to sneak attacks also immune to a shadow strike?
Suggestion: I had a thought about a spell that could be useful to a beguiler. Something similar to the wizard's "mage's lubrication" spell. I'm thinking a 5th level spell that lets you get back 4 spell levels of spells per day (so a 4th level spell, or both a 3rd and a 1st level spell, etc.) without letting him go past his normal maximum spells per day. This gives up some high level spell power to get more casts of some of the more useful utility spells like invisibility.
Question: The shadow strike ability of the baleful shadow doesn't mention anything about immunity, are creatures immune to sneak attacks also immune to a shadow strike?
My initial intent was that those immunities would also count against shadow strike, but now that you've mentioned it I'm not sure if those immunities should count with the shadow empowered strikes (save for incorporeal creatures). I'll have to think about that option.
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Suggestion: I had a thought about a spell that could be useful to a beguiler. Something similar to the wizard's "mage's lubrication" spell. I'm thinking a 5th level spell that lets you get back 4 spell levels of spells per day (so a 4th level spell, or both a 3rd and a 1st level spell, etc.) without letting him go past his normal maximum spells per day. This gives up some high level spell power to get more casts of some of the more useful utility spells like invisibility.
What kind of game do you guys play? Do you perhaps mean Mage's Lucubration? LOL. It's an interesting idea, though it would potentially cause issue with the ghastly claw's spell kill ability.
What kind of game do you guys play? Do you perhaps mean Mage's Lucubration? LOL. It's an interesting idea, though it would potentially cause issue with the ghastly claw's spell kill ability.
Oh god! facepalm I've been saying that wrong for years now. I had to look lucubration up in the dictionary and it said
Quote:
laborious work, study, thought, etc., especially at night.
so I might not be that far off. Maybe you could make it so it could only be used in certain combinations (a 4th level spell or two 2nd level spells)?
Oh god! facepalm I've been saying that wrong for years now. I had to look lucubration up in the dictionary and it said
Quote:
laborious work, study, thought, etc., especially at night.
so I might not be that far off. Maybe you could make it so it could only be used in certain combinations (a 4th level spell or two 2nd level spells)?
ROFL! I think limiting to specific combinations may help reduce the abuse of it, I'll take a good look at the whole spell list and see how that arrangement would work.
What kind of game do you guys play? Do you perhaps mean Mage's Lucubration? LOL. It's an interesting idea, though it would potentially cause issue with the ghastly claw's spell kill ability.
Oh god! facepalm I've been saying that wrong for years now.
That makes two of us.
On the subject of beguiler spells, Gina and I have been tossing this idea around for the last few days and wanted to get your feedback on it:
Reflected Decoy
School: illusion (figment)
Level: 4th
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, F (a flat, mirrored surface at least 1 sq ft in area)
Range: personal
Target: you
Duration: 1 round/level
When the beguiler touches the mirror, she creates an extradimensional space containing a mirrored duplicate of all things within line of effect of the mirror. The beguiler is then pulled into this extradimensional space leaving behind a single illusory double of her self as per symbol of mirroring. This image lasts for as long as the beguiler remains within line of effect of the mirror.
Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it, however spells of the illusion school are reflected by the mirror and act as if cast by the figment. The beguiler cannot break the plane of the mirror without ending the spell. If the mirror is broken by outside forces, if the beguiler's double steps out of line of effect with the mirror, if the duration of the spell ends or if the beguiler dismisses the spell, the beguiler is instantly teleported to the space occupied by the figment.
The mirror can be moved while the beguiler is within it, changing the extradimensional space contained within. While the mirror is being moved, both the figment and the beguiler remain stationary while the extradimensional space shifts around them. This shifting space can be difficult to navigate and thus, if the mirror is moved, a beguiler must succeed an acrobatics check (DC of 1/2 the number of feet the mirror is moved) or fall prone. If the mirror is tilted such that it no longer has line of effect with the ground, the spell ends and the beguiler falls prone and is teleported to the space occupied by the figment.
I've been thinking about the mage's lucubration (I had to type that three times before it didn't come out as lubrication, I think it might be infectious) spell and I'm still not sure about it. A beguiler probably gets 8 or 9 of these spells (invisibility and greater invisibility being the big ones) and I don't know that she needs access to another 6 or 7 on top of that.
LT Silverstar wrote:
On the subject of beguiler spells, Gina and I have been tossing this idea around for the last few days and wanted to get your feedback on it:
Reflected Decoy
School: illusion (figment)
Level: 4th
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, F (a flat, mirrored surface at least 1 sq ft in area)
Range: personal
Target: you
Duration: 1 round/level
...
I really like this. I think I'll add symbol of mirroring to the beguiler spell list anyway since it fits well with the theme. A few changes I might recommend to this spell: bump the duration up to 1 minute per level but add a range limitation on it (if the beguiler steps out of the range from the mirror the spell ends). Also, since this is a visual spell, I'd use line of sight rather than line of effect for the spell. Other than that the language might need a little bit of a clean up, but not much. I really like the bit about moving the mirror. I'll see what I can hammer together from this.
Also I think this spell would be a good candidate for a named spell (like Tenser's Transformation from 3.5) and I think you and Gina deserve naming rights on that. Do you guys have any thoughts about a name for the spell?
I really like this. I think I'll add symbol of mirroring to the beguiler spell list anyway since it fits well with the theme. A few changes I might recommend to this spell: bump the duration up to 1 minute per level but add a range limitation on it (if the beguiler steps out of the range from the mirror the spell ends). Also, since this is a visual spell, I'd use line of sight rather than line of effect for the spell. Other than that the language might need a little bit of a clean up, but not much. I really like the bit about moving the mirror. I'll see what I can hammer together from this.
That's a cool idea about increasing the duration and adding a range to the spell. I think 1 min./level might be a bit too short, though, since similar spells like rope trick or shadowy haven have durations of hours/level.
Ertw wrote:
Also I think this spell would be a good candidate for a named spell (like Tenser's Transformation from 3.5) and I think you and Gina deserve naming rights on that. Do you guys have any thoughts about a name for the spell?
We've given names and a short backstory to each of the beguiler builds we've put together for the play testing and our arcane hand beguiler seems like a good fit for this. Her name is Lady Seriana Braggard ("Bragg" for short). She's a human noble who has decided to "slum it" by joining the beguilers guild instead of the wizards guild. She's far from modest, hence the nickname: so maybe Bragg's Reflected Decoy?
I don't want to make the duration nearly as long as rope trick since the beguiler can still cast illusion spells within the extradimensional space. I put this version together, let me know if you lie it:
Bragg's Reflecting Trick:
Bragg's Reflecting Trick
School illusion (figment); Level beguiler 4
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, F (a flat, mirrored surface of at least 1 square foot)
Range medium (100 feet + 10 feet/level)
Target you
Duration 3 minutes/level (D)
When a beguiler touches the mirrored surface of the spell's focus, she creates an extradimensional space populated by mirrored duplicates of all objects and creatures within line of sight of the mirror, as by the spell symbol of mirroring. If the beguiler is in contact with the mirror's surface she can exchange places with her double as a full round action requiring concentration.
Spells that are not from the illusion school cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. The beguiler's illusion spells are reflected by the mirror and act as if cast by her figment. Objects or creatures which are created or summoned within the extradimensional space after the spell is cast do not receive illusory doubles and are become trapped in the extradimensional space when the spell ends. Gaze attacks still function as long as both the target and attacker are within the spell's range and line of sight of the mirrored surface, even if the target is looking at a figment.
A number of conditions can end the spell other than the standard methods (the end of the spell's duration or dismissal by the caster). The spell is ended immediately if the mirror is broken by outside forces, if the beguiler's double steps beyond the range of the spell, or if line of sight is broken between the beguiler's double and the mirrored surface. If the spell is ended while the beguiler is in the extradimensional space, she is instantly teleported to the space occupied by her double.
If the mirror is moved while the beguiler is within the extradimensional space, both the figment and the beguiler remain stationary while the space shifts around them. It can be difficult to balance in this rapidly shifting space, as such a beguiler must succeed on an Acrobatics check at the beginning of her turn or she falls prone. The DC for this check is equal to 1/2 the number of feet the mirror has moved since her last turn. If the mirror is tilted such that it no longer has line of sight with the ground the beguiler immediately falls prone, she exchanges places with her double and the spell is ended.
That looks really great. I'm digging the new name too. I like the stuff you added about summons and gaze attacks (I hadn't thought about those situations). One thing I would change is that, with the new description, the beguiler no longer starts the spell in the mirror which could be problematic if she uses it tactically during combat. I would change the line:
Quote:
If the beguiler is in contact with the mirror's surface she can exchange places with her double as a full round action requiring concentration.
to:
Quote:
Immediately after casting the spell, the beguiler exchanges places with her double in the extradimensional space. On subsequent rounds, she can again exchange places with her double as a full round action requiring concentration only if she is in contact with the mirror's surface.
You may also want to add a minimum price to the mirror to prevent people from assuming it'd be in a spell component pouch.
We got together tonight for a little play testing and things went pretty smoothly. One thing we caught is that you might want to keep a close eye on teleportation spells: the example we came up with was that, once we realized that we could use bard's escape to cross a chasm, this previously difficult skill-based challenge became trivial. If that's your intention then that's fine, but without levitate or fly (the typical magic approach to these kinds of problems) I had originally assumed that the class was meant to struggle a little with those kinds of situations. I'll try to post a more detailed summary of our findings tomorrow but right now I'm pretty tired and I'm going to hit the sack.
Those suggestions for Bragg's Reflecting Trick are good, I'll make those changes.
LT Silverstar wrote:
We got together tonight for a little play testing and things went pretty smoothly. One thing we caught is that you might want to keep a close eye on teleportation spells: the example we came up with was that, once we realized that we could use bard's escape to cross a chasm, this previously difficult skill-based challenge became trivial. If that's your intention then that's fine, but without levitate or fly (the typical magic approach to these kinds of problems) I had originally assumed that the class was meant to struggle a little with those kinds of situations. I'll try to post a more detailed summary of our findings tomorrow but right now I'm pretty tired and I'm going to hit the sack.
That's a really good point about teleportation; it would also be problematic for climbing cliff faces. Looking through the spell lists there are only three teleportation spells on the list: bard's escape, getaway, and shadow walk. The uncertainty in shadow walk's destination makes it unlikely to be used in those situations and getaway has to be cast at the destination first, so those two probably aren't problems. I do like the tactical options afforded by bard's escape, but it could definitely step on the toes of skill challenges. I see two possible solutions:
1) remove bard's escape and give the beguiler early entry to getaway.
2) remove both bard's escape and getaway. Add a beguiler spell at getaway's level that functions as a hybrid of the two spells; requiring casting at the destination first, but permitting repositioning within the range of the spell.
Any thoughts about these options? I look forward to hearing about the playtesting.
We got together tonight for a little play testing and things went pretty smoothly. One thing we caught is that you might want to keep a close eye on teleportation spells: the example we came up with was that, once we realized that we could use bard's escape to cross a chasm, this previously difficult skill-based challenge became trivial. If that's your intention then that's fine, but without levitate or fly (the typical magic approach to these kinds of problems) I had originally assumed that the class was meant to struggle a little with those kinds of situations. I'll try to post a more detailed summary of our findings tomorrow but right now I'm pretty tired and I'm going to hit the sack.
That's a really good point about teleportation; it would also be problematic for climbing cliff faces.
The beguiler still has spider climb to take care of climbing tasks.
ertw wrote:
Looking through the spell lists there are only three teleportation spells on the list: bard's escape, getaway, and shadow walk. The uncertainty in shadow walk's destination makes it unlikely to be used in those situations and getaway has to be cast at the destination first, so those two probably aren't problems. I do like the tactical options afforded by bard's escape, but it could definitely step on the toes of skill challenges. I see two possible solutions:
1) remove bard's escape and give the beguiler early entry to getaway.
2) remove both bard's escape and getaway. Add a beguiler spell at getaway's level that functions as a hybrid of the two spells; requiring casting at the destination first, but permitting repositioning within the range of the spell.
Any thoughts about these options? I look forward to hearing about the playtesting.
The second option still falls into the original trap. The beguiler can initially cast by the edge of the chasm and then use the repositioning move to shunt his party to the other side. Even if he has to leave the original area of casting, he can just backtrack through areas that have already been cleared in order to get across. The only way I could see the second option working is if the spell range was near (which maxes out at 75 ft.).
The beguiler still has spider climb to take care of climbing tasks.
Good point.
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The second option still falls into the original trap. The beguiler can initially cast by the edge of the chasm and then use the repositioning move to shunt his party to the other side. Even if he has to leave the original area of casting, he can just backtrack through areas that have already been cleared in order to get across. The only way I could see the second option working is if the spell range was near (which maxes out at 75 ft.).
I think it would still have tactical use with near range.
Even with the near range, you'll probably want to leave it as a 6th level spell. It'll be pretty powerful and the only reason bard's escape ends up being a 5th level spell IMHO is because bards are only 6-level casters. It might be worthwhile to give it some unique powers like being able to pull unwilling members (with a failed will save) along with you, instead of just being a mash-up of the two existing spells.
It might be worthwhile to give it some unique powers like being able to pull unwilling members (with a failed will save) along with you, instead of just being a mash-up of the two existing spells.
Now that is something to think about. Are there any existing teleport spells that permit unwilling creatures to be targeted? Most of the big ones I can think of don't (teleport/dimension door). I'll see if I can get something written up in the next day or two.
Still looking forward to hearing about the playtest from you or LT Silverstar.
It might be worthwhile to give it some unique powers like being able to pull unwilling members (with a failed will save) along with you, instead of just being a mash-up of the two existing spells.
Now that is something to think about. Are there any existing teleport spells that permit unwilling creatures to be targeted? Most of the big ones I can think of don't (teleport/dimension door). I'll see if I can get something written up in the next day or two.
Still looking forward to hearing about the playtest from you or LT Silverstar.
Luke's got the list of comments we made during the play test. I'll let him post that but he's been sick for the last few days so I'm not sure when he'll be able to do that. I'll just say we had alot of fun with the class and I can't remember anything other than the teleport that seemed like a big issue to me. I know I had a run of really bad rolls with our 1st level ghastly claw beguiler that meant that I couldn't paralyze s+%@, but that was down to the dice not the class.
The only teleportation spell I know of that allows you to move hostiles is JEster's Jaunt but that has specific rules forbidding using it to throw people off of cliffs and whatnot.
Sorry to hear that he's been sick, I hope he's feeling better soon.
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The only teleportation spell I know of that allows you to move hostiles is JEster's Jaunt but that has specific rules forbidding using it to throw people off of cliffs and whatnot.
I don't think I'd want this spell to allow the beguiler to place an opponent in peril like that since it would run on a single Will save. Here's the spell I've put together to replace both bard's escape and getaway on the beguiler spell list:
Lightfinger's Last Resort:
Lightfinger's Last Resort
School conjuration (teleportation); Level beguiler 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range unlimited
Target you and up to 1 creature/2 caster levels; see text
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Lightfinger's last resort can be used to escape peril and return to a predetermined location, as well as moving affected targets to achieve tactical advantage. The beguiler must initially cast the spell at the destination—all targets affected by the spell must be designated at the time of this initial casting. At any time before the spell's duration expires, she may trigger the spell as a swift action. When the spell is triggered all valid targets (or their remains and gear) are teleported to the location where the beguiler cast initially. A targeted creature who does not wish to travel with the caster can be left behind with a successful Will save. This spell permits transport over any distance within a plane, but does not allow travel between planes.
In order for a creature to be considered a valid target for the spell must be within close range (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels) of the beguiler both at the time of initial casting and when the spell is triggered. If a creature is designated as a target at initial casting, but he does not meet both of these criteria, he is left behind when the spell is triggered.
Once the spell has been triggered the beguiler can move all affected creatures to any other space of her choosing within close range of the spell's destination. Those spaces need not be in line of sight or line of effect from the location of the spell's original casting, but must be open locations on surfaces able to support the creatures teleported; this shift cannot place a creature in a space that is by nature hazardous to him.
Speaking of will saves. I'm new to casters but seems like all of the beguiler spells have a Will saving throw. I dread the day I encounter someone with a high will. Is the only strategy at that point to just use a weapon?
Speaking of will saves. I'm new to casters but seems like all of the beguiler spells have a Will saving throw. I dread the day I encounter someone with a high will. Is the only strategy at that point to just use a weapon?
Yes, that's one of the weaknesses of the class that keeps it from getting too out of hand; with the spell list the way it is (heavy on illusion and enchantment) Will saves are your bane. The saves of your highest level spells will still scale roughly with the good save progression, but that still means a 65% chance that they'll save across the board (down to a 50/50 shot if you can get the +2 from cloaked casting). If those odds don't look good to you (which, to be fair, they shouldn't) you can still attack with a weapon.
The other thing to remember is that few things in pathfinder happen in a bubble. Even if you are weak against foes with good Will saves, chances are you'll have a party member who can do well against them (good Will save classes often have poor Reflex saves so just have the wizard/sorcerer blast him with evocations). Good Will save characters also tend to surround themselves with beefier fighters, so why not turn you enchantments around on one of them and have them beat the tar out of their boss.
Sorry to hear that he's been sick, I hope he's feeling better soon.
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The only teleportation spell I know of that allows you to move hostiles is JEster's Jaunt but that has specific rules forbidding using it to throw people off of cliffs and whatnot.
I don't think I'd want this spell to allow the beguiler to place an opponent in peril like that since it would run on a single Will save. Here's the spell I've put together to replace both bard's escape and getaway on the beguiler spell list:
** spoiler omitted **...
I still think you should be able to put an enemy who fails the save into danger. Maybe some kind of rule like they must be within 5 ft. of a flat surface (so they get a climb check to catch themselves before falling to their doom).
I still think you should be able to put an enemy who fails the save into danger. Maybe some kind of rule like they must be within 5 ft. of a flat surface (so they get a climb check to catch themselves before falling to their doom).
Given that it gives an escape option as well as a tactical repositioning, adding a save-or-die option would be too powerful for a level 6 spell. I prefer to limit the lethal options given to the beguiler so that she doesn't stray too far from her niche.
I still think you should be able to put an enemy who fails the save into danger. Maybe some kind of rule like they must be within 5 ft. of a flat surface (so they get a climb check to catch themselves before falling to their doom).
Given that it gives an escape option as well as a tactical repositioning, adding a save-or-die option would be too powerful for a level 6 spell. I prefer to limit the lethal options given to the beguiler so that she doesn't stray too far from her niche.
I guess I can see where you're coming from on that point.
