Charisma is a bit low actually, Half-succubus give +8 to that, +4 to con, and +2 to int, wis, and dex. I know in a lot of other APs the main baddies are built with higher point buys. It's usually listed but could that account for the remainder?
Is the Half Succubus template listed anywhere? I just thought it was a variant Half Fiend which is usually +4 to three stats of choice and +2 to the other 3 stats.
That would explain why I have not seen it. I don't have that splat book and it doesn't appear on the SRD yet. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.
Using those stat bonuses and putting the +2 from human into Int you end up with the following:
Str 08 (08 + 6enh = 14)
Dex 16 (16 + 2race + 6enh + 4inh = 28)
Con 15 (15 + 4race + 6enh + 4inh + 8myth + 6prof + 5lvl = 48)
Int 17 (19 + 4race + 6enh + 4inh + 4prof +3age = 38)
Wis 10 (10 + 2race + 6enh + 3age = 21)
Cha 12 (12 + 8race + 6enh + 3age = 29)
That's a 30 point buy if I'm not missing bonuses somewhere. Usually when they do a point buy above the standard 15 point buy "heroic array" they tend to list it in the stat block. 30 points is not outside the realm of possibility but it's not listed anywhere on the sheet so unless you deconstructed her stat block like I did you might not know where some of her bonuses are coming from. That's not usually going to matter but it is handy info if you plan to make adjustments.
Hi everyone,
@Aldarionn: half-succubus gives Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +2 and Cha +8. Hope this helps.
I have finished Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth. Of course as my party advances through the AP I'll have to see if I need to adjust the enemies, but right now I consider it done. Only City of Locusts remains...
For Svendack I decided to use the advanced template and add the two golems I talked about earlier.
As for Areelu, I think the easiest solution (aside from a full rebuild)is to give her an ability that allows to count demoniac levels as if they were witch levels for the purpose of calculating the save DCs of her hexes. That deals with the worst problem I encountered with her stats: her most effective means of attacking (hexes) were heavily nerfed due to taking a prestige class. This gives her a respectable save DCs (34). You can also go and give her an ioun stone that ups her Caster Level to 20th, so she has the same as the PCs.
Some of her feats could be changed (Combat Expertise) or used to improve the encounter (Craft Construct). Give her some additional support in the form of some nasty mythic construct she has built to protect herself.
Her spell list should be customized so she exploits the PC's weak points. At this point in the campaign she should know them.
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I have done quite a bit of investigation into this exact thing, actually, and when I asked Mr. Jacobs, he didn't have his work notes on him. Phooey.
BUT! I have determined the following:
1. She is missing one path ability, which presumably is used on a +2 stat increase, which is applied to either Con or Int.
2. She applied all of her mythic stat increases to Con.
Add that in with your calculations (which are disturbingly similar to mine) and you get...a 25-point buy. Still not outside the realm!
First, thanks. I've been using these upgraded stats against my party in Heralds of the Ivory Labyrinth, and it's been a fantastic improvement. The fights with Odeenka, Orengofta (using, as suggested, the upgraded stats given for "Ibaheniel" in the Midnight Isles section), and the Father of Worms, were all terrifying fights that the party still won.
Likewise, the two other suggestions for upgrading fights worked well: (1) making the crystal ooze advanced and giving it 2 extra attacks (and moving the two half-fiend cyclopses to this area), and (2) giving Svendack a pair of the upgraded Baphomet Golems with a "Shield Other" effect between them.
The only disappointment so far has been the fight with Inger-Maggor---even with the upgraded stats, he didn't last a single round. Inger-Maggor appeared, the ranger hit him with a few arrows, and then the sorcerer hit him with a channel-powered empowered maximized augmented mythic magic missile, followed (using the Quicken metamagic rod she got from Vang) with a quickened version of the same, dropping him.
The latter development worries me quite a bit. For the cost of 2 mythic power, 2 spellpower uses, 2 6th level spell slots, and 1 use of the Quicken Metamagic Rod, the sorcerer inflicted 390 points of damage that bypasses spell resistance, and ignores effects that normally block the spell, like Shield. The sorcerer can pull this off 3/day, and still have plenty of spells (mythic and otherwise) to use the rest of the time. And given how well this worked for her, I suspect this is something she's going to do regularly in the future. Any thoughts/suggestions as to how to modify future encounters to deal with this?
Counterspell, spell turning, and antimagic field should still do the trick?
I wouldn't use it in every fight. Let the mythic heroes play with their toys.
If all else fails, have Eustoyriax get returned by Deskari. The upgraded version found here must be his strongest ally. Possess the sorcerer and have fun
Counterspell, spell turning, and antimagic field should still do the trick?
I wouldn't use it in every fight. Let the mythic heroes play with their toys.
I completely agree that it's no fun to just nerf the players toys! (At least, not in the middle of the campaign, after they've already chosen their feats, path abilities, etc., with the assumption that things would work a certain way.) Ideally, I'd like to modify the opponent side of things to allow this tactic to still be effective, but not fun-killingly powerful...
I guess the three options that I'm currently considering are:
Option 1. Pair up Big Bad Guy encounters, so that if one of them drops quickly, the other is still around to wail on the party. So (if I could do it again) pairing the tarn linnorm with upgraded Inger-Maggor, and in future encounters, pairing upgraded Igramalash with Alderpash, and upgraded Ylleshka with the upgraded Herald.
Option 2. Assume the Herald's Repulsion Field works against things like magic missile, and use the upgraded Ylleshka stats, but return the "defending" enchantment to all of her swords, making her effectively impossible to hurt in any way besides spells (making this tactic a necessity, rather than just an easy way to win the fight).
Option 3. Keep the encounters the same, use the upgraded stats, and then double the hp of all of the mythic Big Bad Guys from now on. (So 390 hp of magic missile damage would be enough to take away the opponent's "bonus" hps, but not enough to drop them in their steps.)
Hrmm...
@Porridge,
Glad you had a good time with the statblocks and my advice! please keep the stories coming, I would like to have as much information as I can to see if some adjustments are needed, and of course to see if you managed to challenge your players ^_^
Sorry to hear about Inger-Maggor. I think his improved abilities should help the DMs deal with powerful characters, but against the tactic you describe he has no defense other than teleporting if he survives and joining another fight later.
Since the sorceress in my game has taken mythic magic missile, I'm getting worried that she may realize how powerful it is when you mix empower, maximize, quicken, and channel power with the augmented version. Ironically, a lvl 1 mythic spell is one of the best ways to deal damage.
Unfortunately, the bad guys have little in the way of defense against it. Remember that magic missile has a target line, so the caster needs to see a part of the target. Blind him or try to get total concealment with the enemies (easier said than done, I know...)
Also, a lesser glove of invulnerability should stop magic missile. The problem with this spell is that it's stationary, so its usefulness is debatable.
If your player starts killing monsters left and right using this tactic, I say hit him with everything you have. At this point in the campaign, you can assume that Baphomet can see what players are doing or can use divinations to get more information, and then update his minions. The same goes for Deskari. Metagame a bit if the player wants to use this trick over and over.
My herald has a corrupted aura that benefits him and his allies. One of the benefits is a mobile lesser glove of invulnerability. Of course the player can heighten the spell so it counts as higher level and ignores it. If he has this metamagic feat, I suggest you upgrade the Repulsion Field to work as the greater apocalypse locust's "block attacks and spells" defensive ability (pg. 31 of my document), but he repels the attack automatically. If you want to be really evil, You can even allow him to repel area attacks that include him.
I'm sure the sorcerer will have plenty of time to shine and have fun through the last module's encounters. Make him sweat once or twice before the campaign is over.
I thought I had asked thus before, can't find the post though. Did the brazen bull You built replace the basilisk so outside the ivory sanctum?
Thanks for the stats, great work
Yeah, it's supposed to replace those basiliks. At the level the players will be, they are close to useless. The bull should have a better chance at challenging the PCs.
Thanks for your kind words!
Quick update for everyone: March is going to be a busy month for me, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to update the document. The next big thing on my list is updating Baphomet's stats and the Demon Lord traits.
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Yesterday I played the Staunton fight with my group. The PCs had already cleaned the right side of the citadel, so only the right side and the entrance remained. Of course, after their first incursion, the enemies were ready for them and Staunton planned a "pincer attack". Also Kiranda is in the PCs camp, disguised. At night she teleported into the citadel and updated Staunton on the PCs' powers, abilities and strategies. Then she returned to get more information before finally teleporting to Chorussina's side.
This is the list of combatants involved in the fight:
- Barrid Isen (he survived the bridge encounter)
- 4 brimoraks
- 4 gargoyles
These guys were at F4.
- 3 babaus
- 2 minotaur bodyguards
- Joran Vhane
- Staunton Vhane
- Nurah
These were at F18 and F20.
At first, the PCs didn't fight the enemies at F4, and instead holed up in F17 after taking 5 fireballs (brimoraks plus Barrid) from .
After two turns, enemies started emerging from F18. First, the minotaurs, and later the babaus and Joran. Staunton waited until the last moment to join the fight. Nurah stood most of the fight inside F18 while invisible, bolstering their allies attacks using bardic music.
In retrospect, I think my players made a bad mistake by hiding in F17 instead of going after Barrid and his brimoraks (I love this guys after I upgraded them). Barrid's fireballs were a constant threat throughout the fight.
When Staunton joined the fight, the players were mostly healed. He first went after the dwarf cleric of Torag, killing him after 4 succesful hits (fleet warrior + full attack, sudden strike and another standard action from amazing initiative). The cleric was later revived by the paladin using relentless healing.
He took a lot of damage from the sorceress' fireballs and the inquisitor' attacks. After another four attacks, the inquisitor was also dead. Things started to look grim for the heroes...
Then the paladin full-attacked Staunton, inflicting quite a bit of damage. At this point, he was at 0 hit points. Nurah came out of the room and healed him, enough so he could also kill the paladin with a critical hit.
Staunton had little hp, the dwarf cleric was alive but prone, and the sorceress casted another fireball, killing him for good.
Barrid and the two remaining brimoraks fled using teleport/dimension door. Nurah was captured.
The players cheered after a gruesome fight :-) The dead will be revived with some raise dead scrolls they bought and found during their adventures (I added some to the treasure inside the lost chapel).
The combination of amazing initiative, sudden strike, fleet warrior and precision gives Staunton an edge against the PCs. The precast prot. from good gave him a standard AC and good saves (except for Reflex, wich is supposed to be his weak spot). Nurah had also cast displacement on him, and her bardic music made him a lot stronger.
Again if you want to go easy on your players, don't use mythic power attack from the beginning. His standard hits are scary enough.
I found the same thing with the party I'm running. Even without your additions but with help from the NPCs Vahne was a very mobile combatant that could hit very hard and often. My PCs were very scared of him.
Edit: and thanks for your stat blocks. In general they are too powerful for my PCs but they have given me ideas that I can work from.
March is going to be a busy month for me, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to update the document. The next big thing on my list is updating Baphomet's stats and the Demon Lord traits.
My party's going to be running into Baphomet soon, so I'm looking forward to it!
Yesterday I played the Staunton fight with my group...
Wow. That's pretty epic...
An Update: With my massive magic missile worry in mind, I ran the Ylleshka encounter using the upgraded Ylleshka stats, but with two modifications: (1) I doubled her hp, and (2) I let her keep the "defending" enchantment on all of her swords, though I only allowed her to shift enhancement bonuses to AC that came from the swords themselves (not her greater infuse weapon ability), giving her a +12 boost to her AC and a -1/-1 on her longsword attacks. (The party just gained 2 levels and a tier (now L17, M8), and was greater teleporting in fully buffed, so I wanted to make sure things were appropriately challenging.)
I was afraid this would be overkill, but it actually worked very well. Combat lasted 10(!) rounds, with a brief intermission when Ylleshka teleported out to heal herself up at a Baphomet statue. (They hit her with a dimensional anchor when she came back, so she couldn't repeat this trick.) And despite her frightening number of attacks, no one in the party died, due to the amazing number of ways high-level mythic characters can blunt attacks and re-distribute damage (Divine Interference, Paladin's Sacrifice, Mythic Contingency, Sudden Block, Absorb Blow, Invincible Stand, ...). Ylleshka did end up falling to a pair of massive magic missiles from the sorcerer, but it was a properly climactic ending, after she had been beaten down to 200ish hp.
I also ran the Igramalash encounter using the upgraded stats, just doubling his hp. This also worked well: although the fight barely lasted 3 rounds, it was plenty challenging---at the end, the paladin was dead, the ranger almost dead, and only a massive magic missile (again!) at the end saved the day (Igramalash had about 70 hp at the time). But the doubled hp were crucial---without them, the party's melee attacks would have dropped Igramalash in the first round.
I'm now thinking maybe the massive magic missile spells aren't the problem. Against a mid-to-low AC opponent like Igramalash, the melee characters are now reliably doing 200-350 damage a turn; comparable to a pair of massive magic missiles. (The paladin's ability to share his smite with everyone, coupled with the party's new mythic critical abilities and feats, have really turned things up a notch.)
I tend to dislike "outside the rules" tweaking of opponents, but I'm considering multiplying the hp of mythic opponents by something like x(1+CR/20) from now on. These upgraded stats are fantastic---they make these opponents genuinely frightening---but without some kind of hp boost, I'm finding it hard to keep them standing long enough to challenge the players...
I'm curious to hear what other people's experiences have been like, though. Have other people running the Ivory Labyrinth run into this problem?
Your party is not alone there. 200-350 damage per round sounds about right for a mythic PC at that level. Possibly even a bit low. They will almost always be making full attacks, and they have a high enough attack bonus to ignore most of the AC's as written and that's being conservative with stat-stacking.
The enemies in the books as written have nowhere near enough HP to stand up to a single round of combat from a single heavy hitter, let alone an entire party and Paizo's attempts to craft mythic enemies have been pretty laughable so far. There are a few exceptions but by-and-large the Mythic rules for PC's are just horribly broken and I won't be using them again in any official campaign. I may use them for something homebrew, using homebrew enemies but if another Mythic AP comes out I will be re-writing it to suit my needs.
I think the biggest issue is that there are many MANY ways to pump damage within the Mythic rules, but very few ways to really pump AC and HP to keep up. Most Mythic PC's will kill themselves within 2-3 of their own attacks, and have no trouble hitting their own AC. If this is the case, you have an issue because any true Mythic encounter at that point comes down to whoever has the highest initiative killing the lower initiative.
This AP has an excellent story, and Sc8rpi8n_mjd has done well to improve enemies in such a way that they are able to present a challenge through clever tactics and pumped up defenses, but without his efforts I fear my run as DM of this AP would crumble very soon.
@Seannoss,
Glad you find my work useful. If you can, I would like to hear about your modifications and encounters.
@Porridge,
It seems you had two challenging and interesting combats! I might also adjust HP in the future if I find my PCs are dealing too much damage. I fear the paladin's aura of justice will break the game when suddenly everyone can smite in boss encounters. Certainly hit points don't scale well in mythic games. The problems is either they last enough to knock unconscious/kill a character or two, or they die miserably without even taking a turn. I also dislike tweaking opponents outside the rules but depending on the circumstances it may be the only option. Only time will tell.
Thank you for giving details about these fights. Can you post your party composition? Do your players min-max or do they just build characters intelligently? This information could be very helpful.
As for the information you requested, I'm still running Sword of Valor, but the two mythic opponents my party faced were killed fast after they appeared. The inquisitor and the paladin deal a lot of damage.
Just so you know, I have updated the document with the revised demon lord traits and Baphomet's stats.
@Aldarionn,
+1000 to what you said. Mythic has some design problems (IMHO) that I'm not sure I'll be able to fix even with harder monsters.
A solution I've already used in my document is to give a monster more than half HP per hit die, or give it maximum HP per hit die (only once).
I don't think players need more HP.
I like the ability you gave many of them to spend a mythic point to use a spell like ability as a swift action. I did use that idea with the mythic vrock.
Your scions of Baphomet may be too powerful, I know that they're supposed to be throw away troops. I made mine as half vrock barbarians, could be a fair compromise.
In general, yes, bosses and all encounters need more hp. I'm running at about 100-125% hp for all encounters. Now fights can last 4-5 rounds and feels like a better use of time.
Unfortunately it does not feel like the mythic rules or this AP were very well tested so we're all learning on the fly.
@Caius,
You were wise holding back on using the breath weapon. Just because a monster has an ability, it doesn't mean you always have to use it. That's why I made those comments about mythic power attack. If the DM needs it he can power-up the monster's damage to put the party against the ropes, but if they struggle against the enemy you can use the standard damage.
I prefer to give the monsters powerful abilities that they may not need to use rather than regret not having them available if I need them.
@Seannoss,
One of the problems I saw is that demons have interesting spell-like abilities that they don't use in the end because it's more efficient to full-attack if you have the option. That ability (and the free mythic casting X times per day equal to mythic rank) is supposed to address this issue. It gives the DM more tactical combinations without wasting useful actions.
How was the fight against the mythic vrock? Did you add anything to the encounter?
The scions of Baphomet are supposed to be mobile and resilient fighters. Maze mastery is key to their build, so they can teleport as a move action and then hit with mythic vital strike, dealing respectable damage. With this tactic they can even target the casters in the back, wich are usually hard to reach for melee monsters. Their ability to roll saving throws twice should help them last a little longer, but their AC isn't high, so melee characters will hit them regularly.
If you want to use them more efficiently, they can drop the glaives and full-attack with smite on top.
I'm trying to imagine what a half-vrock minotaur looks like... bulls with beaks :-)
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An interesting discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has been running into these problems!
One thought I've been playing around with for dealing with the low-creature hp problem is introducing a simple template to apply to key opponents, like this:
- Robust Creature (CR +1)
Creatures with the robust template are harder to kill than their ordinary relatives.
Rebuild Rules: Hit Dice: Increase HD dice by 2 steps (in the same way as damage dice are increased: i.e., 1d6 to 2d6, 1d8 to 3d6, 1d10 to 3d8, 1d12 to 4d6). Hit Points: Maximize hp per HD. Ability Scores: +4 to Con (or Cha if undead).
Applied to the key opponents in the Ivory Labyrinth, this roughly doubles their hit points, which seems about right for my party. (If one needed further hp-boosting, one might try a Very Robust Creature template (CR +2?) which increases HD dice by 4 steps and Con by +8...)
This doesn't, unfortunately, address the problem raised by Aldarionn and Krinn about the low hit points of the players and (much more importantly!) the low hit points of mythic NPC opponents built using the same rules...
I think the biggest issue is that there are many MANY ways to pump damage within the Mythic rules, but very few ways to really pump AC and HP to keep up. Most Mythic PC's will kill themselves within 2-3 of their own attacks, and have no trouble hitting their own AC. If this is the case, you have an issue because any true Mythic encounter at that point comes down to whoever has the highest initiative killing the lower initiative.
A good point.
Aldarionn mentions that the mythic rules don't really provide ways to pump up player hit points. Perhaps one could mitigate some of these problems by adding a couple of universal mythic path abilities, like?:
- Boost Hit Dice: Increase the hit point dice you use by one step (in the same way as damage dice are increased). You can select this path ability up to three times. (Yielding the following possible dice progressions: 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6; 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6; 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8; and 1d12, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6).
- Maximize Hit Dice: You gain the maximum number of hit points per die at each level.
(Unfortunately, these path abilities make the mythic Toughness feat look bad, though not strictly obsolete. But perhaps that's a bullet we should be prepared to bite...)
Something like this might give players and mythic NPCs a way to boost their hit points enough to withstand a round of their own attacks. And if players use precious path ability slots to boost their hit points in these ways, it would decrease the number of damage-boosting mythic path abilities they can cram in...
As per some of this HP discussion I've gotten rid of mythic vital strike. Unless I give all foes mythic dodge I can't see how that feat is balanced.
With the half vrocks I thought they matched thematically being an aspect of the sin of wrath. I plan on just giving them feathered wings. Being barbarians with mirror image they still should be fairly mobile.
And I know its bad to say it, but I wouldn't use the template as I don't want to give out extra xp for something I'm doing anyways that the game seems to need. Also, PCs have a lot more outs and escapes than NPCs do, they rarely need the additional HP boost.
One of the biggest issues with just increasing HP without giving enemies tactical advantages to exploit and increase their survivability through other means is that it makes fights long and boring.
The goal should be to have a long and INTERESTING fight, 4-6 rounds of combat is about right before it becomes clear one side has won. To this end, there are a few problems I tend to see with enemies in these modules.
-Players rarely need to buff: PC's can usually go unbuffed into any fight except for a boss and not care. This saves resources, and the melees are usually able to deal with most enemies. The casters can rely on wands and scrolls to deal a bit of damage against most "average" fights. When going against a BBEG, a lot of times it is obvious enough the encounter is coming that the players have at least a round or two to put up Haste and the odd protection against X spell. Many of these types of spells last minutes or even hours per level, so they may have even been put up well ahead of time, and refreshed during short downtimes between fights if dispelled.
-Enemies ALWAYS need to buff: If you look at almost every enemy stat block ever created for an AP, they have a "before combat" and "during combat" section. The "before combat" section lists the buffs the enemies always keep active during the day, and those they put up if they sense combat is coming (if the alarm is raised). The "during combat" section almost always has them casting at least one buff spell on the first round of combat, or putting up any buffs they are missing if they were surprised. Combined with the fact that players rarely need to buff, are ready for combat going in, and have much better action economy than most bosses, this means that the boss-level enemies often die before they even get a swing off if they follow the as-listed tactics.
-Players never do what you expect: Try as they might, the AP's almost never account for what players will actually do. Case-in-point, in Drezen the players are expected to use the doors. I ruled that they were all locked as you moved closer to the heart of Drezen (read Staunton's Chamber), so my players stopped using doors and started using Stone Shape to make their own doors in the walls. This lead to some very odd and unexpected angles of attack, and alarms not being raised until much later than they might have otherwise.
-Players are focused, enemies must be broadly built: In a campaign like Wrath of the Righteous, players know they will be fighting Demons and their allies. In Reign of Winter it's a safe bet players will be fighting things that deal cold damage, and may be vulnerable to fire. In these kinds of adventures, it's relatively easy to build a focused character that can play well to the campaign. Unfortunately for the writers of the AP, they cannot predict what four classes players are going to pick out of the multitude that are available. Even if the DM forces the players to pick only core book classes that's still a fairly wide variety of options available. Enemies have to be good against anything that might come their way, while players can focus on fighting just evil outsiders and evil mortals and know they will be good against whatever they run up against.
-High HP Slug-Fests are not entertaining: If all you do is batter an enemy down for 4-5 rounds using the same tactics for every fight, it's no more fun than just killing that enemy in one full round attack. Probably less fun, actually. Enemies need mechanics that allow them to take advantage of terrain, avoid party strengths,exploit party weaknesses, or outright break the rules in order to keep things lively. If the party Wizard uses a Grease spell heightened to 9th level to force Baphomet to drop his Glaive, but it disappears when it leaves his hand and he chuckles, then summons a new one, the party will get a much more real sense of danger from him than if he drops it and fumbles around trying to pick it up while they curb-stomp him.
All of these things combined with a dozen others are where my issues lie with high-level and Mythic play. I feel that Paizo has made too many assumptions regarding how PC's will be built, and so they have made an AP that is woefully inadequate to the realities of play at these levels. I don't even need to do anything silly to do enough damage in a round to kill Bephomet before he can attack. Amazing Initiative, Vital Strike, Mythic Vital Strike and a host of Critical feats on a straight Fighter/Champion using a x3-x4 weapon will do the job without breaking a sweat. Probably with several feats to spare.
I like what Sc8rpi8n_mjd has done so far because it gives the DM a number of tactical options to use in various situations without simply increasing the enemies HP to account for the wildly overpowered damage PC's can dish out at these levels. I feel that my party will respond better to some of these enemies better than if I just multiplied HP by 2 or 3 and played the enemies as written.
Anyway, my lunch is over so I need to get back to work.
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As a note for Stone Shape, it's only 10 cubic feet plus 1 per level.
So a 8th level caster only gets to shape 18 cubic feet, 20 if he's using mythic to increase his CL. That's a 2 foot by 2 foot hole five feet deep. Drezen's walls are five feet thick everywhere, so any 'door' you create is squeezing at best to get into.
One of the biggest issues with just increasing HP without giving enemies tactical advantages to exploit and increase their survivability through other means is that it makes fights long and boring. ...
I like what Sc8rpi8n_mjd has done so far because it gives the DM a number of tactical options to use in various situations without simply increasing the enemies HP to account for the wildly overpowered damage PC's can dish out at these levels. I feel that my party will respond better to some of these enemies better than if I just multiplied HP by 2 or 3 and played the enemies as written.
Just to be clear: I completely agree with all of this.
Just adding a "robust" template to the key opponents in the AP as written won't yield challenging encounters. (At least not for my party!)
Using Sc8rpi8n_mjd's upgraded stats alone is much, much, better. But I've been running into the problem of still having enemies drop too quickly---sometimes before they even get a chance to attack.
The thought was to take Sc8rpi8n_mjd's upgraded stats, which make the creatures interesting and tactically challenging, and then add something like a "robust" template to boost their hit points high enough to let them last more than one round.
(Why bother with a template? Because it provides a principled way to boost hit points, and does so in a way that doesn't clearly conflict with the existing rules. And I'm a sucker for quasi-principled tweaks like this.
But this is just window dressing. Using Sc8rpi8n_mjd's stats and then just doubling the hps would yield essentially the same result.)
And I know its bad to say it, but I wouldn't use the template as I don't want to give out extra xp for something I'm doing anyways that the game seems to need. Also, PCs have a lot more outs and escapes than NPCs do, they rarely need the additional HP boost.
I definitely get that. (The "CR+1" was just to make it feel a little more "within the rules"---like something which Paizo could come out with. But I agree that it could mess up the rate at which you want the party to advance.)
Also, PCs have a lot more outs and escapes than NPCs do, they rarely need the additional HP boost.
By and large, I agree. It was the low hit points of mythic NPC opponents built with the same rules as PCs that I was more concerned with. (I'd like to have those enemies last more than one round too!)
Can you post your party composition? Do your players min-max or do they just build characters intelligently? This information could be very helpful.
The party has four players: a Half-Orc Paladin (Mythic Paths: Champion and Guardian), a Half-Elf Urban Ranger (Mythic Paths: Champion and Guardian), a Dwaven Cleric of Milani (Mythic Paths: Champion, Guardian and Hierophant), and a Halfling Groveborn Sorcerer (Mythic Path: Archmage). (All but the sorcerer took the mythic Dual Path ability at 1st tier, and the Cleric took the Extra Path Ability feat at 1st tier in order to take it twice.)
The characters were constructed using a 10pt buy, with no bonus points for ability scores below 10. (So no min-maxing in that sense.)
I'm using the slow XP advancement, which has put them a little over a level behind through most of the AP. But the extra XP they get from the higher CR builds that appear in the updated stats document have almost caught them up to the levels the AP recommends.
I don't allow magic item crafting, and I don't allow them to buy magic items whose cost is greater than the Base Value of the biggest settlement they have access too. (As of the Midnight Isles, that's 32,000gp.)
In general, the players have picked a mix of obviously good combat abilities and feats (Power Attack, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Rapidshot, Multishot, Improved Critical, Precision, Armored Might, Fleet Warrior, etc) and "just in case" defensive abilities and feats (Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Divine Interference, Lucky Halfling, Absorb Blow, Relentless Healing, Mythic Resolve, Invincible Stand, etc).
Just so you know, I have updated the document with the revised demon lord traits and Baphomet's stats.
Excellent!
I really like the Demonic Aura; a clever way to prevent players from just using fleet warrior to just rush up and full attack, or from starting combat by unloading with a pair of massive magic missiles...
I'd recently run the stats to determine what "point build" the Advanced Template would be for 15-point characters. It came to 78, I think, assuming a 15/14/13/12/10/8 build. +3 to each stat is 52 points, +2 to each stat is 37 points, and +1 to each stat is 10 points.
You see, I've run into a problem with rolled stats with the players having rolled well (in one campaign around 35 point builds, and in the second over 40 points). But the Advanced Template is... well, overkill in that it increases armor class by +4. So I wanted to determine the best way to balance the stats of enemies with that of the players.
It's just a little something to consider for those GMs who allow rolled stats. There is a way around it to balance the enemies' stats to those of the players.
Wow Porridge. I can't imagine creating characters with those sets of rules. If they over balance things then mythic is way overpowered. I a already taking notes on what to change if I do this again (wild arcana and inspired spell being at the top of that list)
As a note for Stone Shape, it's only 10 cubic feet plus 1 per level.
So a 8th level caster only gets to shape 18 cubic feet, 20 if he's using mythic to increase his CL. That's a 2 foot by 2 foot hole five feet deep. Drezen's walls are five feet thick everywhere, so any 'door' you create is squeezing at best to get into.
I misread the spell. I thought it was 10 cubic feet per level.
The characters were constructed using a 10pt buy, with no bonus points for ability scores below 10. (So no min-maxing in that sense.)
I'm using the slow XP advancement, which has put them a little over a level behind through most of the AP. But the extra XP they get from the higher CR builds that appear in the updated stats document have almost caught them up to the levels the AP recommends.
I don't allow magic item crafting, and I don't allow them to buy magic items whose cost is greater than the Base Value of the biggest settlement they have access too. (As of the Midnight Isles, that's 32,000gp.)
If with these obstacles they still destroy everything, I fear my guys (who work with other restrictions) will do even more. Good to know.
I misread the spell. I thought it was 10 cubic feet per level.
Well, they still can stoneshape a door out of its frame, I guess. ^^
Also, they can stone shape a tiny sliver of stone around a much larger piece of stone with a wedge at the bottom so the Paladin with a decent strength score can just push it and have it fall out of the way. Or even use it to slice that large piece of stone into much smaller blocks. At that point you are only manipulating a small volume of stone.
There are plenty of ways to abuse that spell if you try hard enough.
Wow Porridge. I can't imagine creating characters with those sets of rules. If they over balance things then mythic is way overpowered. I a already taking notes on what to change if I do this again (wild arcana and inspired spell being at the top of that list)
I'm not normally this draconian. But I was worried about balance issues, and James Jacob had a post saying something like: "If you're worried about balance issues, I recommend using a 10pt buy and using the slow XP advancement track." So I thought, "What the hey, let's try that..."
If with these obstacles they still destroy everything, I fear my guys (who work with other restrictions) will do even more. Good to know.
I think the 10 pt buy ended up making surprisingly little difference once the mythic stat point increases kicked in. But I think the slow XP advancement and the magic item restrictions have made a difference.
But I've been surprised too, and continue to be surprised. And there keep on being battles that we realize later should have been much easier for the party, because they (or I) forgot about some mythic ability of theirs. (The most recent example: I just realized the party's fight with Alderpash should have been much easier, since the 5th tier Mythic Saving Throws ability means they take no damage on successful saves from non-mythic subjects. So instead of being knocked down to half hit points by his opening salvo of Meteor Swarm, Quickened Empowered Fireball and Delayed Blast Fireball, they should have taken no damage at all. Damn...)
One thing I've mentioned before is my plan to only do 1-point increases for Mythic Stat points. It does make the mythic increase less in-your-face and immediate, but it also allows for a more strategic use of them... and is far less invasive.
Though with rolled stats, I also have a problem with too-high stats already so... ;) (but I also found a way to compensate - for instance, +2 to every stat of an enemy is much like a 37-point build, which is quite close to the stats rolled by the group).
I have uploaded the document again. Please try accessing it, and let me know if you experience any problems.
I see the pages just fine right now.
I'm loving these updates to Baphomet and Khorramzadeh.
(Two potential typos?: Baphomet is given a +31 Fort save, but had a +36 Fort save in the AP. Khorramzadeh is listed under SQ as having a +5 inherent bonus to Str and Con, but the two stats that are increased from the AP are Str and Cha.)
I'm loving these updates to Baphomet and Khorramzadeh.
(Two potential typos?: Baphomet is given a +31 Fort save, but had a +36 Fort save in the AP. Khorramzadeh is listed under SQ as having a +5 inherent bonus to Str and Con, but the two stats that are increased from the AP are Str and Cha.)
I changed Baphomet's base saves so he gets a higher reflex save. In his original statblock, Reflex was the poor save and Fortitude one of the good ones. I swapped them to get better bonuses overall. I think most demon lord's statblocks adjust saves this way so usually the save with the best ability modifier is the poor one.
Your are right about Khorramzadeh, I corrected the inherent bonus score and uploaded the document again.
Thanks for pointing out this error.
If you use Baphomet, please post here the battle details.
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My players just got into the Sanctum last night. They found the tunnel entrance and went in that way.
Vang's Retrievers went off a lot better than just a standard retriever. The double eye rays scared the hell out of them.
For the Derakni, I used the Lord of Swarms as my players never did much searching so I was able to reuse certain enemies.
They actually skipped Vang's chambers and went north instead, so I had an interesting fight with the Templars and the Adepts, summoning in a bebelith and stripping the paladin of his armor.
One of the adepts managed to d'door away, so I had him alert Vang who sent him to wake the rest of the Sanctum up. Cue two Scions and four half fiend minotaurs coming in. The Scions were very dangerous with their teleport and mythic vital strike.
So thank you very much for giving me enemies that my players didn't ROFLstomp.
I know that their spells can be swapped out, and probably should be, but what point do the adepts have? They look woefully underpowered and with their given spells look ineffectual.
Since you're barely farther Lochar; what did you do to change them?
My players just got into the Sanctum last night. They found the tunnel entrance and went in that way.
Vang's Retrievers went off a lot better than just a standard retriever. The double eye rays scared the hell out of them.
For the Derakni, I used the Lord of Swarms as my players never did much searching so I was able to reuse certain enemies.
They actually skipped Vang's chambers and went north instead, so I had an interesting fight with the Templars and the Adepts, summoning in a bebelith and stripping the paladin of his armor.
One of the adepts managed to d'door away, so I had him alert Vang who sent him to wake the rest of the Sanctum up. Cue two Scions and four half fiend minotaurs coming in. The Scions were very dangerous with their teleport and mythic vital strike.
So thank you very much for giving me enemies that my players didn't ROFLstomp.
Hey Lochar, happy to hear about the stats being succesful. Thanks for letting me know :-)
How did the Lord of Swarms fight went? do you have any comments about that particular monster?
I hope the greater apocalypse locusts can protect Vang enough for him to cast a few spells at your party when they get to him.
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The lord of swarms has the capability to be a nasty opponent, especially since I put him in the enclosed area of the Sanctum where his aura was a beast.
Sadly, the Paladin quite literally tanked it all day long with a +17 to fort.
Scared the hell out of the arcane trickster when he waded in and ate Con poison though (first person to fail it), so that was fun.
I never tried the drone, as my party has a +13 to Will at a minimum at this point.
Spending a mythic point to do his Summon as a swift was nasty fun. All of a sudden, more swarms! My party hates me. :D
Honestly, I will say that the ability to swift an SLA is probably the greatest combat equalizer for what amounts to a solo mythic enemy.
Lochar:
That information is very helpful. In fact, going over the Lord of Swarms' stat block I realized I made a mistake when establishing its Abyssal Swarm ability DC: It should be based on Constitution, upping the DC from 21 to 23.
I have updated the document to reflect this change.
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If you use Baphomet, please post here the battle details.
My party just finished the Ivory Labyrinth with the Herald/Baphomet encounter. I used the updated stats, but doubled their hit points. I was happy with both encounters, though in each case the party ended up getting a little lucky, and doing better than I expected.
The Herald part of the encounter lasted 2 rounds (barely). The Herald got off the first attacks, but then the sorcerer cast a Resilient Chains of Light, the ranger put his heart back, and they spammed him with Iomedae's gifted Atonement spells. The quickness of the encounter didn't bother me, though, since the party was trying to redeem him, not take him down in some drawn-out epic brawl.
The Baphomet fight was more exciting and scary, though the party again ended up with the upper hand. At the start of the 4th round, the three Balors, one Labyrinth Minotaur and 16 Half-Fiend Minotaurs Baphomet had summoned were dead, Baphomet was down to a little below 600 hps, and he teleported away to his tower. (If I hadn't doubled his hit points, Baphomet would have been knocked down to 200 hp at the start of the 3rd round, and fled then.) The party ended up surprisingly well off---two players had around 50 hps (one prone), two had full hps, and none were suffering from any major negative effects (though a bunch of their buffs had been dispelled by Baphomet's Quickened Greater Dispel Magics). But they had expended a ton of mythic power (about 9 apiece, over 3 rounds) and the sorcerer had burned four uses of mythic Spellpower.
A couple of things that made the Baphomet fight more do-able for the party:
1. The encounter with the Herald was over quickly, and cost very little in party resources. And since the party knew that Baphomet would probably show up after they killed or redeemed the herald, they were buffed to the gills (even more than usual) before teleporting in.
2. Three of the four party members have both Mythic Resolve (allowing them to make every important save) and Invincible Stand (allowing them to weather full attacks from Baphomet), which did a lot to keep the party standing.
3. The cleric got lucky in her caster-level checks to heal damage done by Aizerghaul (the cleric's Heal spells only had a 25% chance of getting through, but she made both checks). If she'd failed those checks, the paladin and ranger would have probably died, and things would have gone very differently.
4. I didn't take advantage of Baphomet's ability to buff up with scrolls beforehand. Played to the hilt, I'm confident that this would have allowed Baphomet to TPK the party. (There were a number of good suggestions for how to do this in the "Fighting a demon lord" thread. Against my party, the following Baphomet strategy would suffice: use scrolls of Extended Mind Blank and Greater Invisibility before entering, spend several rounds using the Greater Dispel Magic spell-like ability to dispel the party's buffs, cast a mythic Time Stop, summon minions, cast Unhallow tied to a Dimensional Lock to keep the party from escaping, then finish with a bunch of buff scrolls (Mage Armor, Barkskin, Shield, Greater Heroism, Haste, Greater Invisibility, etc).)
I was looking through the City of Locusts, and I realized that I've become completely dependent on these upgraded stats... Other than the three big encounters (Khorramzadeh, Areelu Vorlesh and Deskari), the encounters presented in the AP are so far off, balance-wise, that it's hard for me to even imagine how to make them challenging. (Happily, there are upgraded stats for Aponavicius to crib, but I'm not sure what to do with the rest of it.)
Any thoughts?
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Hey Porridge,
Unfortunately right now I'm very busy so it's hard for me to get some time to work on the document. Lately I've been working on the Echo of Deskari, but it's not finished. I'll try to get something done on the weekend.
If that helps, I can tell you what I wanted to create/change to improve the module:
- The assault on Drezen should involve more of the Worldwound's heavy hitters. I plan on including Carrock and Zelmisdria (plus her green dragon) as mythic opponents before the characters face Aponavicius.
- Aponavicius' lair will include Staunton as a graveknight and a mythic Pyralisia. Maybe I'll include some sort of mythic construct to replace the iron golems.
- Terendelev will be mythic, as she was transformed into a ravener using the energies from a cluster of nahyndrian crystals.
- I'm getting rid of the Fileted man and Lord Stillborn. I don't like them, simple as that. Instead I'll use a Son of Shax (advanced mythic babau that can create weapons with its acidic blood) and Shaorhaz, the Glutton of the Green (a vrolikai inquisitor with mythic power).
- If you want to be reeeeeally evil you can give Khorramzadeh a devastator or two. The bonuses to his Strength and Charisma scores from the aura of corruption will help him in challenging your party.
- Make Diurgez mythic, but different from Khorramzadeh.
- Improve the Echo of Deskari, the Favored of Deskari, and Gimcrak.
Hope this helps.
BTW, thanks for the details of the Baphomet fight. It seems it was interesting and fun.