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Hello there.
I was just asking myself and JJ if there is the possibility of something like that. Could be Tian Xia independant too.
Any way it would really be appreciated and judging how famous Kitsune boons are in PFS i´m sure i´m not the only one out there wishing for this!
Of course the japanese Kitsune are the main inspiration, but in western culture there are also many fox themes. Reinecke Fuchs (something european/german) i believe is called Reynard the fox in english for example. Or with Loki you have a fox themed norse trickster god.
Could be a good fit in the river kingdoms and is kind of half fey anyway.
Could also have a racial swashbuckler prestige class.
Is something like that planned for the near future?
Would be awesome!
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Heck, I could definitely see a book for animal-like humanoid races. Advanced race guide doesn't do catfolk, nagaji, and kitsune enough justice. Many of my players have interests playing them Humanoid animals have significant places in mythology. This is a design space worth looking at.
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And tengu, don't forger tengu.
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Heck, I could definitely see a book for animal-like humanoid races. Advanced race guide doesn't do catfolk, nagaji, and kitsune enough justice. Many of my players have interests playing them Humanoid animals have significant places in mythology. This is a design space worth looking at.
I could see a player companion titled 'People of the Dragon Empires' that focused on the new Core Races from that region (Samsaran, Wayang, Nagaji, Tengu, and Kitsune), but the "animal-like humanoids" tagline is extremely weak at best and racist at worst. Those races don't share a common bloodline trend (like the janni-kin that Blood of the Elements is focused on) and most of them don't share a common region (As far as we know, there are no catfolk in Tian Xia.) Lumping them together for no reason than they are all animal-like humanoids would make for a disorganized product with a very weak theme.
Not to mention that SO many creatures would be up-in-the-running for this book (gnolls, adlets, and about a hundred other creatures that actually ARE in the Inner Sea) that its likely this product would turn into another Blood of the Night; many customers being dissatisfied because the product didn't contain enough of what they expected.
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Yeah catfolk would make that problematic probably.
A Tian Xia theme might be possible, Kitsune, Tengu and Wayang, maybe add Samsaran and Nagaji. But that would already be a bit much for a player companion i guess.
I'd second that, along with the elemental races.
The Dragon Empires primer has a fair bit for kitsune, including a racial pounce.
The Dragon Empires primer has a fair bit for kitsune, including a racial pounce.
Personally, even with that I feel like we know almost nothing about the race.
The other issue is that there are still a ton of 'real world' mythological powers that kitsune have that are unavailable in pathfinder. That, and that no one wants to burn 8 feats to build a 9 tailed fox, so a lot of people are hoping for a book that gives alternate methods (I vote sorcerer bloodline).
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Personally, even with that I feel like we know almost nothing about the race.The other issue is that there are still a ton of 'real world' mythological powers that kitsune have that are unavailable in pathfinder. That, and that no one wants to burn 8 feats to build a 9 tailed fox, so a lot of people are hoping for a book that gives alternate methods (I vote sorcerer bloodline).
If you are into 3PP, keep an eye out for something written by yours truly in the next couple months that will make the 9-tailed build MUCH less painful (fun, even) to undertake.
Not to toot my own horn, but how I solved the problem is pretty GENIUS.
Especially if they make Magical Tail viable somehow. It's cool, but not 8 feats cool.
Thanks Chris Lambertz.
I´m aware of the Dragon Empires stuff. That´s where Kitsune come from^^
Only there could be much more.
See first post.
More kitsune all over golarion.
Like in the river kingdoms as an european fox people variant.
(I like the asian trickster thing though, but many have problems with the asian themed side of golarion)
A Swashbuckler racial archetype (one that rocks actually).
More racial feats are always welcome. Some racial spells could be a good idea too. A sorcerer bloodline or oracle stuff, after all that got already mentioned somewhere as Kitsune with white fur.
Then info on Kitsune societies or in general could be a good idea too.
I would really love to see them get rid of that "furry" taint.
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My hunch is that there's no chance of a kitsune/expanded dragon empires race book (I'm way more interested in the samsaran than I am in the kitsune =P) until we have another Tian Xia AP.
I'd like to see another Tian Xia AP, but I'll be surprised if there's one in the cards for 2015. I believe the AP team already knows where they're going next, but as normal we won't be finding out until later this year.
That being said, keep an eye out for Paizo doing an androids book to coincide with Iron Gods. If Paizo's willing to try a book for just androids, that puts much better odds on a kitsune or samsaran-dedicated book happening.
Well, as i see it, Kitsune seldomly reveal their true form and wear their "human" form normally.
Furry taint means exactly that, weird double standard things i don´t really want to know about. Ponies are already way to close there. And unicorns too. But please don´t let this discussion here be about such things.
I think there are pretty cool ways to implement more Kitsune in Golarion.
Not been very interested in Samsaran, Wayang or Nagaji yet. I think those are even more specific.
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I've always found it interesting that players consider the kitsune, vanara, and catfolk, "furry" but not gnolls and rakshasa. Because most of the time I notice that it's people who dislike something who label it; you never see people who are into that sort of thing exclaiming, "OMG FURRY RACE GUYS YIFF YIFF YIFF!"
It saddens me that people who are subjected to that sort of typecasting (like ALL RPG players are) would be so quick to typecast others.
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I've always found it interesting that players consider the kitsune, vanara, and catfolk, "furry" but not gnolls and rakshasa.
It could be that gnolls and rakshasa have been around since the '70s (as D&D monsters, anyway, obviously rakshasa have been around for thousands of years...), and the perception that 'furry fandom' equals 'anthro fetishists' has been around for a shorter time.
It saddens me that people who are subjected to that sort of typecasting (like ALL RPG players are) would be so quick to typecast others.
That's certainly true.
Divides between D&D players and Vampire players, for instance, never made any sense to me, since I loved both games.
I think you hit the nail on the head, Set.
Well, the thing is i´m not a furry fan, nor do i have an anthro fetish.
Seth is right probably though.
I see Kitsune as tricksters, seducers and pranksters, fooling humans and others. As a former exclusive rogue player, i´m more of a trickster fan than anything else. Kitsune and their feats so far fit that role perfectly. Realistic Likeness is a super fun feat. I would love to see more along those lines.
Formerly halflings or gnomes fit that very much, but i played both a lot. And halflings are a little bit different in Golarion, weaker and in too many countries just slaves or seen as underlings. That´s setting a rpg background already.
What are your ideas, wishes and expectations?
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I would definitely love to see the Tian races get some more love. The samsaran is, in my opinion, one of the most interesting races from an ecology standpoint, and very little has been said about them. I mean, they're practically Time Lords (like the Doctor from Dr. Who), but there are so many unanswered questions.
How long does it take them to reincarnate? Can they be resurrected as normal (as a playable race, I assume so)? Where do they reincarnate? Do they need to be raised as children, or can they essentially raise themselves, having already undergone a former life? What causes samsaran children to be human? Where did they come from?
And several dozen more.
So, yes, I would like to see a race guide with the Kitsune, Samsaran, and Tengu, at the very least.
I would definitely love to see the Tian races get some more love. The samsaran is, in my opinion, one of the most interesting races from an ecology standpoint, and very little has been said about them. I mean, they're practically Time Lords (like the Doctor from Dr. Who), but there are so many unanswered questions.
You and I think alike. If you see a Rogue Genius Games product with my name on it in the near future, you'll probably like what you see.
I see Kitsune as tricksters, seducers and pranksters, fooling humans and others. As a former exclusive rogue player, i´m more of a trickster fan than anything else. Kitsune and their feats so far fit that role perfectly. Realistic Likeness is a super fun feat. I would love to see more along those lines.
Even without Realistic Likeness, I find that a shapechanging race is crazy fun to play because there's so much you can do with the idea of having two different faces. I think skill-focused kitsune are a blast to play, personally, and the more trickster options the race gets, the better.
That's one of the strengths of the kitsune race compared to something like the human or halfling or elf. The kitsune has a very strong racial archetype that you can play with, adapt, or subvert to your liking. My kitsune samurai, Kyr'shin, is one of the most enjoyable characters I've ever played and I'm looking forward to building some kitsune swashbucklers in the very near future.
What are your ideas, wishes and expectations?
Whoa, nelly. Okay, I'll share. But I'm warning: you asked for this.
First, as a newer addition to RPGs in general, I honestly think that Paizo needs a designer who is EXTREMELY passionate about the kitsune (or any of the new races) in order to pull the product off well. All of the "Blood of" and "Race of Golarion" books thus far have been VERY safe and serve to incorporate iconic races into Golarion's tapestry; even the janni-blooded races have RPG History to draw upon in the form of D&D's gensai.
Second, there is some core information that is missing from the kitsune flavor that could use expansion. Specifically, what human ethnicities do kitsune adopt when they shapeshift and how is this determined? In games I play and GM in, I personally say, "any ethnicity" because no source to date has bothered to note it. This also leads to the interest idea that kitsune might actually intermingle with humans on occasion (which they certainly do in Japanese lore) and the resulting offspring might bare the likeness of both their human parent and their kitsune parent's human form. It lends itself nicely to the possibility of small, undetected kitsune settlements existing all over the world, and given the source material, that's certainly possible. In the real world, foxes can be found on virtually every continent (sans Antarctica).
Third, more information on kitsune communities and family units. While the Dragon Empires Primer notes which nations have kitsune populations, it doesn't appear that they have any notable nations of their own. That should be something that gets some light shed upon it.
Finally, in terms of player options, I want to see more stuff along the lines of the Skinwalker options; options for all characters, but thematically appropriate for the kitsune. Feint specialists for fighters and rogues, Charisma-based monks, and a white-furred oracle. (Ironically, I wrote this archetype in Abandoned Art's Amazing Races! Kitsune.)
Allow me to iterate on myself.
First, as a newer addition to RPGs in general, I honestly think that Paizo needs a designer who is EXTREMELY passionate about the kitsune (or any of the new races) in order to pull the product off well. All of the "Blood of" and "Race of Golarion" books thus far have been VERY safe and serve to incorporate iconic races into Golarion's tapestry; even the janni-blooded races have RPG History to draw upon in the form of D&D's gensai.
When I say that previous race-based player companions have been very safe, I'm not talking about the content of those products. All of them are very progressive in their own way. From my own collection, Kobolds of Golarion and Halflings of Golarion are excellent at taking races that are normally very saturated in their own source material and giving them a Golarion paint job. Although you can see the influences, Halflings of Golarion doesn't rely on Tolkien as a crutch to explain the race. Replace "Tolkien" with "3.5" and "Halfling" with "kobold" and the above sentence will be true about Kobolds of Golarion too. Although Blood of Angels and Blood of Fiends does not have a strong Golarion sense about it, the new tidbits it does present breathe new life into two races that most people would deem very tired and overdone. But ultimately, all of the Golarion Race books thus far have featured racial concepts that Paizo did not invent. This includes the upcoming Blood of the Elements, which has a lot of Dungeons and Dragons background to draw upon in the form of the planar gensai. (Notable exception: suli. This will be the first truly unique race to be featured in one of these products, but that's anywhere from 1/5th of the product to less.)
A book on the kitsune (or Tian Xia races in general) would have none of that. It would have to rely completely upon itself and the creative minds working for Paizo in order to help it sink or swim. This is why I said that it would take Paizo getting people who are truly passionate about these races on board with the project in order to make this happen; even if Jason Nelson isn't a huge fan of sylphs, he can whip out his copies of Planescape or Forgotten Realms and look at air gensai for mechanical inspiration if he wants to. You can't do that for the Tian Xia races, so you would need people who have played as kitsune, nagaji, samsarans, tengu, and wayangs and are familiar with the mythological lore behind each of them in order to make this product work.
A second strike against the idea is that it would be a product that features races that aren't truly native to Paizo's campaign setting; its been stated multiple times that the Dragon Empires are more like a separate setting from the Inner Sea, which honestly works against the chances of this product happening.
That´s exactly why i mentioned Reynard the Fox in the first post here and asked for a Kitsune population in the River Kingdoms. European Lore has some fo stories for inspiration. Especially for trickster heroes and the like. I did a scientific work on that some years ago, comparing the tradition of the chinese 36 stratagems to similar things and traditions in europe. It´s pretty interesting.
Due to my background, i know a lot about asian lore and can always find out more. I´m also very passionate about such things. Just as i am passionate about Pathfinder and Ktisune^^ Perhaps i should try to write something like that hehe. I´ll soon have more time.
Didn´t see Abandoned Art´s Amazing races! Kitsune! yet, but maybe i´ll take a look at it. I´m hoping for a Paizo product though, since i play a lot of PFS.
By now i played one Kitsune sorcerer and two Kitsune bards and both are great fun to play. I´m really looking forward to the swashbuckler, which i will definately try as a halfling and a Kitsune. Wanted both as a sword saint already, but just couldn´t make that good enough to play it somehow.
I see the points of you argumentation and they seem pretty good. I also know that many people don´t like the asian setting too much and be it only because they can´t keep or pronounce the names. Paizo listens though. And i think they have a lot of good chances there. That might also prove to be a strong point in the future, when they perhaps need to keep pathfinder ahead of similar products.
Hehe, then you might vote for a Kitsune, nagaji, samsaran, wayang, tengu book too :D
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A kitsune book is pretty niche. There's a player with that race in my Runelords game, who would probably love it, but they're not that common.
A "Races of the Dragon Empires" giving four pages to attention to kitsune, nagaji, samsaran, wayang, and tengu. Add some advice on bringing eastern races to the Inner Sea.
I don´t think it´s that niche. Judging from the popularity and demand of Kitsune boons in PFS, many people seem to be interested in playing them.
I don´t think it´s that niche. Judging from the popularity and demand of Kitsune boons in PFS, many people seem to be interested in playing them.
Its important to remember that forum-goers are virtually always the vocal minority.
Take, for example, the Crane Wing errata. All of the uproar over that was mostly the same five-six people complaining THOUSANDS of times in a very short time.
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I don´t think it´s that niche. Judging from the popularity and demand of Kitsune boons in PFS, many people seem to be interested in playing them.
They're popular enough to be supported in a Player's Companion but I don't think they need their own. I love me some tengu but I don't think 32-pages on them is an adequate use of space.
Every featured race from the ARG doesn't need its own book.
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Man id love a Blood of the Fox book. in my gaming circles there is a lot of interest in that race.
Tell everyone in your gaming circle to pop onto this thread and voice your interest.
The llama is listening ....
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Personally, even with that I feel like we know almost nothing about the race.The other issue is that there are still a ton of 'real world' mythological powers that kitsune have that are unavailable in pathfinder. That, and that no one wants to burn 8 feats to build a 9 tailed fox, so a lot of people are hoping for a book that gives alternate methods (I vote sorcerer bloodline).
If you are into 3PP, keep an eye out for something written by yours truly in the next couple months that will make the 9-tailed build MUCH less painful (fun, even) to undertake.
Not to toot my own horn, but how I solved the problem is pretty GENIUS.
I have a kitusne wizard/monk in the Tian AP. It is painful to get the 9 tails with the trade-off not being so great.
A Book on introducing Kitsune (or Fox-Folk) to the inner sea would be awesome! while the ARG did alter a few details to make the race more inner-sea friendly I would love to see more options.
1.A white-furred kitsune oracle archetype with abilities related to his connection to nature and spirits. (Recommended Mysteries:Ancestor, Nature, Lore, Occult, Time, and perhaps even Juju)
2.A Kitsune sorcerer bloodline, dabbling into giving the sorcerer nine tails and abilities related to their trickster nature.(Illusion and Enchantment focus)
3.A swashbuckler archetype would be interesting as it would seem like the most martial any fox-folk would normally get.
4.A reintroduction to the feats and abilities in the dragon empires books but not in the ARG.
5.MOST IMPORTANT: Information of Kitsune in the inner sea region.(communities, religions, traditions, how do kitsune-human pairings turn out?)
I also agree we could use more info for other Dragon Empire races in the inner sea as well.
P.S. on a more personal interest note, a mechanic that causes a kitsune in human form to reveal fox characteristics, lore describes such occurrences alot.(I am also a fan of anime which does influence this note)
1.A white-furred kitsune oracle archetype with abilities related to his connection to nature and spirits. (Recommended Mysteries:Ancestor, Nature, Lore, Occult, Time, and perhaps even Juju)
I wrote an archetype for that in Abandoned Art's Amazing Races: Kitsune. Its not PFS legal, but it might help scratch your itch until more info comes along.
2.A Kitsune sorcerer bloodline, dabbling into giving the sorcerer nine tails and abilities related to their trickster nature.(Illusion and Enchantment focus)
I like the idea of a bloodline with more focus on illusion and trickery, but in Pathfinder the kitsune seem to be more focused towards Fey aspects. I think that part of the problem is we don't really know anything about the kitsune or where they truly came from in Golarion. More than a new bloodline, I would prefer a kitsune archetype that expands the fey bloodline; like how the Dragon-Blooded Sorcerer archetype works from the Dragonslayer's Handbook player companion.
3.A swashbuckler archetype would be interesting as it would seem like the most martial any fox-folk would normally get.
I disagree with your sentiments; optimizers don't rule the world of Golarion or any world for that matter. For example, halflings have an Order of the Paw cavalier order even though they're Small creatures with a Strength penalty (a double no-no in character design for many optimizers) and kobolds have a fighter archetype (same).
That said, I would enjoy an archetype that made the swashbuckler more Eastern themed, but that can be in the Advanced Class Guide and if we're being honest, a swashbuckler with a katana (thanks to Slashing Grace) is all a kitsune really needs in life.
4.A reintroduction to the feats and abilities in the dragon empires books but not in the ARG.
Frankly if they took design space away from new feats to republish old ones, I'd be annoyed. I'd note that they exist and reiterate on the rules surrounding them. The whole "can be selected any time the kitsune earns a feat" thing is rather ambiguous.
5.MOST IMPORTANT: Information of Kitsune in the inner sea region.(communities, religions, traditions, how do kitsune-human pairings turn out?)
I also agree we could use more info for other Dragon Empire races in the inner sea as well.
1) I don't think we'll see Kitsune of the Inner Sea because they'd be such a ridiculously small presence. I imagine most of them would hover around the colder lands to the north because of its proximity to the Crown of the World (and therefore Tian Xia). I don't think the kitsune need to be introduced to Inner Sea, but that's why this sort of product is typically called, "RACE of Golarion" and not "RACE of the Inner Sea."
2) I personally play it off as kitsune and human pairings working, but kitsune blood is dominant. As in, a child born between a kitsune and human pairing is always a kitsune (but will typically be born in human form if the mother is human). That would allow the race to give rise to many Chinese/Japanese/Korean myths surrounding foxes and it would open the door to something neat: regional human forms. Specifically, a kitsune with human parents has some of its human parent's features in human form. Over generations, you could theoretically see clans of kitsune that had Ulfen qualities or Chelixian qualities in human form given enough time and genetic exposure. I also like the nipping off the bud of a half-kitsune race.
P.S. on a more personal interest note, a mechanic that causes a kitsune in human form to reveal fox characteristics, lore describes such occurrences alot.(I am also a fan of anime which does influence this note)
I use the Drawback System, like this:
Inebriated Shapeshifting: Whenever a kitsune with this drawback is sickened from alcohol consumption or under the effects of a drug or an addiction, he does not receive a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human while in human form.
What i wonder is why Kitsune actually don´t count as humans or half-humans. Same is true for halflings actually.
What i wonder is why Kitsune actually don´t count as humans or half-humans. Same is true for halflings actually.
Halfling's have a creation background that hasn't been revealed yet.
Kitsune don't have the human subtype for the same reason doppelgängers don't: just because you can magically transform into something doesn't mean that you think and act like that thing all the time, nor does it mean your true form has any relation to that thing.
Makes sense, but too bad^^
Most things human in this game are so strong.
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Personally, and I'm only speaking for myself here, I don't think kitsune is popular enough to support an entire PC of its own. An "animal races" or "Asian races" PC seems like the best way to sell some kitsune material, bundled with some other races.
But if I'm wrong, I'm happy for all the kitsune fans here.
To play devil's advocate, of the four new Tian Xia races the kitsune is the only one that can be unlocked in Pathfinder Society Play. So it is popular enough to be deemed a fitting reward for continued PFS participation.
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To play devil's advocate, of the four new Tian Xia races the kitsune is the only one that can be unlocked in Pathfinder Society Play. So it is popular enough to be deemed a fitting reward for continued PFS participation.
There are 5 races mentioned in the Dragon Empires books. Of those, only the Samsaran is not legal for PFS play at all.
Tengu is legal by default.
Kitsune, Nagaji, and Wayang all have boons.
That said, Kitsune seems to be the most popular of them. I also wouldn't mind a 'Races of the Dragon Empires' book that gives them all more attention.
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In our neck of the woods, though, there are several Kitsune characters (as well as a number of Nagaji, and at least one Wayang). My wife and I have a pair of Kitsune characters, and to the best of my knowledge nobody has laughed at them (or at us for playing Kitsune).
But as the only way to get to play one of those races in PFS, AFAIK, is from last year's convention GM boon, I doubt if the potential marketplace is large enough to support a new Player Companion.
To play devil's advocate, of the four new Tian Xia races the kitsune is the only one that can be unlocked in Pathfinder Society Play. So it is popular enough to be deemed a fitting reward for continued PFS participation.There are 5 races mentioned in the Dragon Empires books. Of those, only the Samsaran is not legal for PFS play at all.
Tengu is legal by default.
Kitsune, Nagaji, and Wayang all have boons.That said, Kitsune seems to be the most popular of them. I also wouldn't mind a 'Races of the Dragon Empires' book that gives them all more attention.
Huh. I saw that the samsaran wasn't legal for PFS play and I assumed that nagaji and wayang weren't either. Thanks for clearing that up!
I did mention "four new Tian Xia races," however, which excludes the tengu and the human.
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Our local game shop runs around four tables, twice a week. I saw a single kitsune character a year ago, and none since. The race is mostly a laughing stock, as in the sort of player that plays it is the sort that would have played a kender fifteen years ago. In other words, my own anecdotal evidence is that there would be less than no interest.
So you've seen one kitsune player in the past year and you feel confident enough to stereotype all kitsune players and all kitsune characters as "the disruptive type of player who would want to play a Kender?"
I agree that your evidence is anecdotal. For that reason, you shouldn't use generalities like, "The race is mostly a laughing stock."
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But as the only way to get to play one of those races in PFS, AFAIK, is from last year's convention GM boon, I doubt if the potential marketplace is large enough to support a new Player Companion.
Which broke my heart. I was looking into joining my local PFS chapter and I was immediately turned off by the rules telling me that I should either travel to a major convention and get lucky in acquiring a specific Chronicle sheet or sit down, play a core race, and stop complaining about the rules. But that's just my opinion, I guess.
Well, books over whole regions have been written because some demanded for it on the forum already, so i don´t see a problem there^^
I know there are many people who don´t like Kitsune, but there are many people who don´t like alchemists, Alkenstar, Guns, Numeria and the like too. Still it has been written.
So, yeah for Kitsune!