What would be a good set of pre-requisites?
I'm thinking it would be a good fighter only feat (to put them at least in the same ballpark at Barbarians). Now at a minimum, I'm thinking Fighter 11, as one prerequisite. I was also trying to think of some feats which might logically lead up to it though.
Maybe Acrobatic Steps?
Maybe Spring Attack?
I was thinking Wheeling Charge, but that's all mounted combat so it's a non starter.
What does the Paizo Collective think?
I think Spring attack (and all of it's pre reqs) + fighter 11 isn't a bad start.
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Well, according to most anime the prereqs would be:
Race- Catfolk
Charisma- 17+
He wants Pounce, not Glomp.
There's a difference?!?
;)
This would fall under the category of: Would any martial class not take this feat?
I don't think so. Being able to full move and full attack is pretty smexy.
This would fall under the category of: Would any martial class not take this feat?
I don't think so. Being able to full move and full attack is pretty smexy.
Which also falls under the category that any barbarian who lacks the Greater Beast Totem rage power is doing it wrong. As I said, I'm trying to keep up with the Barbarian Joneses.
Though I would say it's pretty unlikely that archer fighter builds would bother with the feat.
Every martial class would take this if available. It would completely change the game.
You would need to restrict it to fighter only, or completely reconsider the basis of the game. Honestly, after playing a Greater Beast Totem Barbarian for so long it almost feels like cheating. In comparison to every other martial character they just can't keep up in terms of total damage output for the combat because I can charge and pounce every round.
Now, I'm not opposed to changing the basis of the game to allow martials to move and full attack. Lets face it, if spell casters can move and cast a spell (which is typically way more of a combat changer than damage) why shouldn't martials be allowed to move and full attack as well? Allow everyone, to move and take a full attack action.
But, it would involve a lot of changes to the game and all the ramifications would have to be carefully thought through.
This would fall under the category of: Would any martial class not take this feat?
I don't think so. Being able to full move and full attack is pretty smexy.Which also falls under the category that any barbarian who lacks the Greater Beast Totem rage power is doing it wrong. As I said, I'm trying to keep up with the Barbarian Joneses.
Though I would say it's pretty unlikely that archer fighter builds would bother with the feat.
Wrong, who loves being able to make a full movement (not just 5ft step) and get a full attack from 60ft away? This guy!
Edit: This is more a train of thought being able to move and full attack, not just pounce. If you restrict to pounce then it isn't useful for archers as they never charge.
I believe the prerequisites are Mythic Path Champion, Mythic Tier 3. The Fleet Attack Path Ability.
Yes, but I'm of the obviously misguided (according to the game designers at Paizo) notion that fighters (and sure, why not Monks too) should have nice toys without having to play Mythic.
Wrong, who loves being able to make a full movement (not just 5ft step) and get a full attack from 60ft away? This guy!
Edit: This is more a train of thought being able to move and full attack, not just pounce. If you restrict to pounce then it isn't useful for archers as they never charge.
Good point, but at least for an archer it would be optional and not mandatory.
Of course I would probably also consider making the mythic version of vital strike the norm. That would at least make a viable option to the pounce option.
Wrong, who loves being able to make a full movement (not just 5ft step) and get a full attack from 60ft away? This guy!
Edit: This is more a train of thought being able to move and full attack, not just pounce. If you restrict to pounce then it isn't useful for archers as they never charge.
Good point, but at least for an archer it would be optional and not mandatory.
Of course I would probably also consider making the mythic version of vital strike the norm. That would at least make a viable option to the pounce option.
I think making Vital Strike work like Mythic Vital Strike might be a step in the right direction, but it might also be even more powerful. Take your best attack bonus and multiply it by the number of attacks you could normally make with a two handed weapon?
Someone would need to do the calculations to determine whether it's better (not including the affects of movement on attack sequences) to make a full attack with only iteratives based on your BAB or mythic vital strike. My intuition says it lands firmly in the Mythic Vital Strike because your chance to miss with your highest BAB attack is low and you don't really lose any damage unless you have a speed weapon or are regularly Hasted.
Yes, in general the mythic vital strikes would be better for DPR, but if you are a crit build which drops status effects on people, you want all your iteratives. Also, if you have a party which buffs you to the gills, the iteratives are probably better since more of them will land (with crit chances and haste piling up).
I would ask BaB 12+ and Whirlwind attack, just to see people actually buying Whirlwind Attack.
That's a pretty huge pile of feats to demand IMO, not to mention the stat requirements.
We're talking:
13+ Dex(which I do anyway)
13+ Int (which I usually do if I can afford it)
and then 5 feats. That's pretty steep.
A barbarian just has to spend on 2 rage powers to get their shiny toy.
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The problem with Barbarian pounce is is it under the assumption that you can only do it during rage, and that you can't rage all day. Most games don't have the challenging encounters that leave you out of Rage rounds and spells, so Rage pounce is more powerful than it should be because of bad adventure design.
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The problem with Barbarian pounce is is it under the assumption that you can only do it during rage, and that you can't rage all day. Most games don't have the challenging encounters that leave you out of Rage rounds and spells, so Rage pounce is more powerful than it should be because of bad adventure design.
You would be hard pressed to make an encounter which lasted long enough to really impact a barbarians reservoir of rage rounds at high level. At low level, sure, but then they don't get pounce till 10th level minimum.
Any situation which is likely to run the barbarian out of rage rounds will run the casters out of spells as well. At that point I suppose the tireless fighter can try to go on, but since he'll just get plowed under owing to the lack of healing and the status effects dropped on him, it's not such a great idea.
High level Pathfinder is rocket tag, not a chess match. There's not a heck of a lot you can do to change that fact.
Not to mention that Pounce itself tends to reduce the encounter by a round or two. If it were balanced against the idea that the Barbarian would eventually run out of rage, I think there'd be a 'subtract 2 rounds of rage per pounce' clause or something.
"Able to cast 2nd lvel spells."?
Honestly, just BAB+12. No other pre-requisites. Should come two levels earlier than Mounted Skirmisher (and two levels later than early-access Mounted Skirmisher).
Well, 11 levels later actually. The errata to UC haven't changed that.
The problem with Barbarian pounce is is it under the assumption that you can only do it during rage, and that you can't rage all day. Most games don't have the challenging encounters that leave you out of Rage rounds and spells, so Rage pounce is more powerful than it should be because of bad adventure design.You would be hard pressed to make an encounter which lasted long enough to really impact a barbarians reservoir of rage rounds at high level. At low level, sure, but then they don't get pounce till 10th level minimum.
Any situation which is likely to run the barbarian out of rage rounds will run the casters out of spells as well. At that point I suppose the tireless fighter can try to go on, but since he'll just get plowed under owing to the lack of healing and the status effects dropped on him, it's not such a great idea.
High level Pathfinder is rocket tag, not a chess match. There's not a heck of a lot you can do to change that fact.
Run more encounters per day.
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Run more encounters per day.
People like to say that. Sure, I suppose you can devise a pretense to force the group to have to do more encounters per day. Of course that pretense is going to run thin after a while. Though keep in mind a 11th level barbarian is going to have over 24 rounds of rage per day. How long do you expect fights to last? At high level so much damage is being thrown around that a fight doesn't usually last more than maybe 5 rounds. That amounts to five encounters a day, which really is quite a bit. At that level the casters will have the tools to take you somewhere safe to rest and recover, so unless you have some kind of demand that they keep going from the plot, they will take the time to recharge.
As I said before, the fighters might seem to have plenty of appeal in their endurance, but to be at all effective, they need caster support, and thus that endurance is for naught. The casters really won't have any more endurance than the barbarian.
Though I will say it certainly appears that the designers of this game think the way you do since they really put a ton of value on abilities which don't have a limited number of uses in a time period. I would say the weighting is far, far past the actual value in practice. This would be a core reason of why they have the fighter be so gimpy compared to other classes which have a resource expenditure mechanic.
Pounce: You can charge allowing a full attack
Feat prereqs: BAB +9, Power Attack, Acrobatic Steps, Endurance, Fleet
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Though I will say it certainly appears that the designers of this game think the way you do since they really put a ton of value on abilities which don't have a limited number of uses in a time period. I would say the weighting is far, far past the actual value in practice. This would be a core reason of why they have the fighter be so gimpy compared to other classes which have a resource expenditure mechanic.
Tell that to the monk with their limited stunning fists per day...
In all seriousness, there are many things that can limit the 25 round workday. Plot constraints, random encounters, regular patrols, and so on. Not every team has access to extra-dimensional hideyholes to rest in, and Teleport is also no available to every group. If the group does have access to those tactics, then there are various counters to them that smart foes can use. If the party is able to rest mid-dungeon reliably, then the GM is doing something wrong.
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When the Pounce ability was first created, it was only meant to be used by animals like cats, so they could jump on you and use all 4 claw attacks and bite when charging.
In my opinion, Pounce should only be used with two weapon fighting or unarmed. You shouldn't be able to "pounce" with a two handed weapon, that's completely against the original intent of the ability (and it's impossible to explain (or imagine visually) like we did with the cat).
This change would help make two weapon fighting (and unarmed combat) more comparable to 2H weapons, which is badly needed.
Just imo.
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Tell that to the monk with their limited stunning fists per day...
The monk tends to be the red haired stepchild. The idea that you wouldn't get many stunning fists in a day is ludicrous consider how unlikely it is to work.
In all seriousness, there are many things that can limit the 25 round workday. Plot constraints, random encounters, regular patrols, and so on. Not every team has access to extra-dimensional hideyholes to rest in, and Teleport is also no available to every group. If the group does have access to those tactics, then there are various counters to them that smart foes can use. If the party is able to rest mid-dungeon reliably, then the GM is doing something wrong.
Yes, some groups don't have the tools to deal with the situation. That can happen. But as I have said many times (without anything that passes for a rebuttal) the casters will be running out as well, and this will be pretty closely synched to the barbarian. The casters are likely even less effective than the barbarian when not raging. I imagine a GM can plan their campaign in such a way that most of the party gets to be gimped most of the time, but they better have a captive audience.
So say you do keep throwing piles of attacks at a party per day. Either you don't care anything about encounter guidelines, or you accept that a lot of those encounters will be trivial, then there's no excuse to even bother raging. If it's an encounter worthy of rage, it is probably worthy of spells, and again we end up in the realm of limited party resources.
The fact is that most classes are built around resource management, and the classes which don't are outliers. Since those classes have to function in a party of those who do have to manage resources, the advantage is effectively moot. The game cannot be built around expectations for the former as well as the latter since they are interdependent(well technically you can make a party where everyone does resource management, so the former can be dispensed with).
High level Pathfinder is rocket tag, not a chess match.
I agree. Sadly, I found the system breaks down from the fun tactics to the above mentioned rocket tag at around level 15ish. This makes me happy that PFS only goes to 12.
I will say that I found High Level battles in RotRL to be in excess of 10 rounds due to environmental conditions and other factors. I can see a high level barbarian still needing to ration his rage.
Run more encounters per day.
People like to say that. Sure, I suppose you can devise a pretense to force the group to have to do more encounters per day. Of course that pretense is going to run thin after a while. Though keep in mind a 11th level barbarian is going to have over 24 rounds of rage per day. How long do you expect fights to last? At high level so much damage is being thrown around that a fight doesn't usually last more than maybe 5 rounds. That amounts to five encounters a day, which really is quite a bit. At that level the casters will have the tools to take you somewhere safe to rest and recover, so unless you have some kind of demand that they keep going from the plot, they will take the time to recharge.
As I said before, the fighters might seem to have plenty of appeal in their endurance, but to be at all effective, they need caster support, and thus that endurance is for naught. The casters really won't have any more endurance than the barbarian.
Though I will say it certainly appears that the designers of this game think the way you do since they really put a ton of value on abilities which don't have a limited number of uses in a time period. I would say the weighting is far, far past the actual value in practice. This would be a core reason of why they have the fighter be so gimpy compared to other classes which have a resource expenditure mechanic.
Yeah, looking at it, the only real reason I would find to justify the kind of pressure that would be needed is in the case of a party with a well optimized witch. This is because they technically have an infinite resource in many of their hexes, since their limits are on how often you can use it on a single opponent, rather than on how many opponents you can fight in a day.
Most other classes, even martial ones, would feel the pain though. Paladins, inquisitors, and cavaliers would likely run out of their smite style abilities. And everyone would literally feel the pain as the cleric, oracle, and even the wands of CLW would run out quick on healing. I think only the fighter, ranger, druid, and rogue could conceivably deal with all this...and the rogue would not be much help since we are kind of throwing a ton of long lasting fights (so surprise attacks will do little, and they have to deal with a lot of flanking to deal sneak attack...with dwindling healing resources)
I was in a game just this past week (was actually resolved over 2 sessions, a week apart) in which 3 encounters were strung together one after another with no time to rest. The party was all 10th level, not 11th, but that is not much different. The total number of rounds for the three encounters was in the high 40s/low 50s. (We were about at 30 minutes of in-game time total, around 5 minutes devoted to the combats).
Had we tried to rest and relax for more than a few moments between each battle, bad things would have happened. And this is far from the first time I have seen this type of thing in mid to high level play.
I don't know how you think it would be a thin pretense; there are literally thousands of various reasons to have a time limit on accomplishing a task, or to add a surprise extension to an encounter they thought was over, or to have a surprise attack in the middle of the day (or night), shortly before (or after) some other planned encounter.
If your suspension of disbelief can't handle such tropes as plotlines, you don't play the same way I do.
How often does this occur? Were your spellcasters also out of abilities?
I didn't say such tropes couldn't be used, I said they couldn't be used all the time or they would get quite old. I mean perhaps your group of players likes running out of abilities and playing at the ragged edge all the time. If so, good for you. That's not the normal playstyle (as evinced by encounter guidelines, Adventure Paths, or PFS modules).
It is always important to note that you don't evaluate things based on exceptions to the norm.
I don't know how you think it would be a thin pretense; there are literally thousands of various reasons to have a time limit on accomplishing a task, or to add a surprise extension to an encounter they thought was over, or to have a surprise attack in the middle of the day (or night), shortly before (or after) some other planned encounter.
The problem comes from trying to keep that same kind of pressure on for every adventuring day for the entire campaign.
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Not to mention, sure you can keep that pressure on every adventuring day all the time. Thats fine. You wear the barbarian out of rage. Now, he is gimped compared to the fighter.
And all your casters are out of useful spells by that time too. So, the fighter is supposed to take on the last encounters on his own with the rogue?
Yeah, that sounds like a hoot and half. It's one thing to try and keep enough encounters so that casters can't spam an I win button every encounter.
Its different to run a barbarian out of rage. The average encounter last 4 rounds or less in my experience. With that, the barbarian can manage 6 encounters per day where he rages through the entire encounter.
But also consider that if you start trying to pull this, as a player I'm going to get a little conservative with my rage. I'll wait until the 2nd round of combat to Rage when I can get that full attack in. That'll give an extra encounter or two to go. Can you really justify 8 encounters in a day? Sounds like your just trying to kill everyone else so you can give the fighter a chance to shine a little bit.
I would ask BaB 12+ and Whirlwind attack, just to see people actually buying Whirlwind Attack.
Honestly I think the reason people don't get whirlwind attack isn't the feat itself (which seems really fun and cool) but the huge number of prerequisite feats and stats. When we look at things which can pounce, one would be hard pressed to find many of them having 13 int. And also spring attack.
That said, I could see spring attack being a prerequisite. That's still a ton of feats but it makes sense thematically. Plus, you'd be 3 feats closer to having whirlwind attack. I figure some people (who feel it fits their character) might still pick it up.
On that note, why is whirlwind attack not part of the cleave line? It shares the "hitting multiple enemies in range" thing. Whirlwind attack doesn't require you move in the way that all but two of whirlwind attacks prerequisites seem to assume you'll be doing.
I would ask BaB 12+ and Whirlwind attack, just to see people actually buying Whirlwind Attack.Honestly I think the reason people don't get whirlwind attack isn't the feat itself (which seems really fun and cool) but the huge number of prerequisite feats and stats. When we look at things which can pounce, one would be hard pressed to find many of them having 13 int. And also spring attack.
That said, I could see spring attack being a prerequisite. That's still a ton of feats but it makes sense thematically. Plus, you'd be 3 feats closer to having whirlwind attack. I figure some people (who feel it fits their character) might still pick it up.
On that note, why is whirlwind attack not part of the cleave line? It shares the "hitting multiple enemies in range" thing. Whirlwind attack doesn't require you move in the way that all but two of whirlwind attacks prerequisites seem to assume you'll be doing.
In 3.5, you can get Whirlwind at 3rd level as a Binder with 1 feat (better Binding one) calling the Vestige Paimon.
You don't need to run that kind of pressure every adventuring day. You do need to run that kind of pressure from time to time.
"But then they'll run out of smites/rage/whatever!"
They're supposed to. That's the point. The players learn to use their fancy abilities when they really need them rather than rage-cycling every kobold they come across. Otherwise, you end up with characters who are ridiculously overpowered compared to characters who focus on always-on bonuses, just as if you gave the party caster a ring of infinite spell slots.
You may be running different campaigns than I'm accustomed to. I've never heard of "how do I cram more encounters into a day" being a problem, so long as I recognize that some days will have one encounter while others may have up to a dozen. If you lean toward the former (I've noticed that mysteries and sandboxes tend to work out this way), recognize that limited use abilities . . . aren't. If you lean toward the latter (typical of dungeon crawls), remember to spread the CRs out--not all encounters are meant to be challenging.
Not to mention, sure you can keep that pressure on every adventuring day all the time. Thats fine. You wear the barbarian out of rage. Now, he is gimped compared to the fighter.
And all your casters are out of useful spells by that time too. So, the fighter is supposed to take on the last encounters on his own with the rogue?
Yeah, that sounds like a hoot and half. It's one thing to try and keep enough encounters so that casters can't spam an I win button every encounter.
Its different to run a barbarian out of rage. The average encounter last 4 rounds or less in my experience. With that, the barbarian can manage 6 encounters per day where he rages through the entire encounter.
But also consider that if you start trying to pull this, as a player I'm going to get a little conservative with my rage. I'll wait until the 2nd round of combat to Rage when I can get that full attack in. That'll give an extra encounter or two to go. Can you really justify 8 encounters in a day? Sounds like your just trying to kill everyone else so you can give the fighter a chance to shine a little bit.
"Pull this"...? I don't understand. I see complaints that limited-use characters are too powerful, then I see this post that says that if you let their uses run out then they're too weak. What exactly do you want?
Yes, I can really justify 8 encounters in a day. It happens a lot at many, many tables. In fact, most modules and adventure paths I've read so far have at least one area in each book that includes six to ten challenges. You think the party is going to squat down for a day every time they move to another room in the devil-infested ruin?
You're going to get conservative with your rage? Good! You're doing it right.
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Challenges you say? I assume you're counting traps and environmental challenges in that because 10 meaningful combats in a day is not going to happen without the clerics running out of heals and all the fighters and rogues dying....
Depends on the encounter design. Not every encounter needs to be challenging individually. But if you waste your spells/rage/smites on a encounter that is a large number of weak enemies, then you may be sorry that you went for the overkill when you fight the CR +3 miniboss four encounters later.
Also, healing is the most inefficient thing that can be done with spells. If your divine casters and bards spend more spells buffing, then healing is not nearly as necessary.
So what I gather is you can pile in a lot of trivial encounters so you can teach resource management. In the trivial encounters the fighter can shine. However when the going actually gets tough, the big guns come out and the fighter moves back to second fiddle. So effectively you have changed very little because all you've done is teach the management skills so in actual fact the resources are always there for the big fights. Ok then. I guess the fighter is the big man on the street when it doesn't matter. Color be unimpressed. Honestly stacking lots of encounters can only really have a few different outcomes- it can teach resource management, or it can wipe out the party. Woo hoo.
But back to the actual subject, rather than what people have dragged it off to, I do think the spring attack prerequisite is probably the best option. There's only one dog feat in the bunch (mobility), and it's not too arduous to get. I am a bit surprised nobody like acrobatic steps as an option since it eats less feats (though has a higher stat requirement).
I can also see the argument for making it simply level based instead of requiring a feat chain. However it seems logical to me that fighters are about feats and they should use some for the buy in. Honestly the barbarian has to buy some likely less than impressive powers (or at least one in lesser beast totem) to get pounce, and the fighter shouldn't get it any easier.
A BAB requirement would deny it from rogues who honestly need it more than anyone. I say use character level as a prerequisite and not BAB. Or maybe have Spring Attack become the prerequisite?
Or the prerequisite can be Death From Above, and the pounce feat also gives you the ability to make an acrobatics check on the charge to activate Death From Above?
Why create a feat tax, and why add a prereq tax?
Pounce is something all martials want, and making them take Dodge -> Mobility -> Spring Attack -> Whirlwind Attack is going to drastically reduce the amount of variation you see in martials.
