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It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
What do you mean by strictly martial?
Anything a normal person in our world might have trouble doing, such as punching people and turning them into stone, hitting the ground hard enough so that nearby enemies fall down and/or turning the area into difficult terrain because you punched it so hard = That must be magic so martials should not be able to do it to some people.
And saying play E6 or E8 is not what most people want to hear, and it wont help both sides resolve their differences in versimilitude.
I am all for extraordinary things, but as the game is now, the modular/optional approach is the best way to do it in order to satisfy both sides.
While it does seem that "play E6 or E8" isn't what they want to hear I just can't fathom *why*. Take Raith Shadar for example. He wants to play Aragorn, a character who fights lots of CR 1 Orcs and when faced with a CR 20 Balor, instead of going "no problem chaps, easy match" and charging it, he instead lives up to his Elven name "Paints the ground yellow" as he bails and leaves it for the outsider pretending to be a wizard to handle. Why is telling them "If you want to play a character who fights lots CR 1's, have you considered playing a level 6 character?" not a valid response?
If you know, or if one of them can explain it to me it'd be a big help, cause I personally can't follow the logic.
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It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
What do you mean by strictly martial?
Anything a normal person in our world might have trouble doing, such as punching people and turning them into stone, hitting the ground hard enough so that nearby enemies fall down and/or turning the area into difficult terrain because you punched it so hard = That must be magic so martials should not be able to do it to some people.
And saying play E6 or E8 is not what most people want to hear, and it wont help both sides resolve their differences in versimilitude.
I am all for extraordinary things, but as the game is now, the modular/optional approach is the best way to do it in order to satisfy both sides.
While it does seem that "play E6 or E8" isn't what they want to hear I just can't fathom *why*. Take Raith Shadar for example. He wants to play Aragorn, a character who fights lots of CR 1 Orcs and when faced with a CR 20 Balor, instead of going "no problem chaps, easy match" and charging it, he instead lives up to his Elven name "Paints the ground yellow" as he bails and leaves it for the outsider pretending to be a wizard to handle. Why is telling them "If you want to play a character who fights lots CR 1's, have you considered playing a level 6 character?" not a valid response?
If you know, or if one of them can explain it to me it'd be a big help, cause I personally can't...
Same reason telling you to wait until an epic source book comes out that takes you beyond level 20 is a non-starter. The base game doesnt give you what you want. The best way to satisfy everyone is to set a dial on character power that groups can zero in on their playstyle. That way everyone can play from level 1-20.
Same reason telling you to wait until an epic source book comes out that takes you beyond level 20 is a non-starter. The base game doesnt give you what you want. The best way to satisfy everyone is to set a dial on character power that groups can zero in on their playstyle. That way everyone can play from level 1-20.
All the other classes, who are already meeting their character concepts, will also get epic levels and will want new toys. Why would I play "I finally met my concept 25 levels later" instead of "character concept++?"
Why shouldn't characters trying to emulate classical heroes fulfill that concept around the same time when wizards reach the classical wizard concept?
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Same reason telling you to wait until an epic source book comes out that takes you beyond level 20 is a non-starter. The base game doesnt give you what you want. The best way to satisfy everyone is to set a dial on character power that groups can zero in on their playstyle. That way everyone can play from level 1-20.All the other classes, who are already meeting their character concepts, will also get epic levels and will want new toys. Why would I play "I finally met my concept 25 levels later" instead of "character concept++?"
Why shouldn't characters trying to emulate classical heroes fulfill that concept around the same time when wizards reach the classical wizard concept?
I agree but right now the system doesnt allow that. The only options currently are to patch the system. Making martials only mythic or come up with a series of houserules are the choices.
Now if we consider a redesign of the system then I would reccomend balancing the power levels better than the current system. However, saying 1/3 of the game fits this playstyle, and 2/3's fits that playstyle is not going work well. A better route is to allow people to adjust the power from level 1-20 as they see fit. That way everyone gets the game they want.
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Same reason telling you to wait until an epic source book comes out that takes you beyond level 20 is a non-starter. The base game doesnt give you what you want. The best way to satisfy everyone is to set a dial on character power that groups can zero in on their playstyle. That way everyone can play from level 1-20.All the other classes, who are already meeting their character concepts, will also get epic levels and will want new toys. Why would I play "I finally met my concept 25 levels later" instead of "character concept++?"
Why shouldn't characters trying to emulate classical heroes fulfill that concept around the same time when wizards reach the classical wizard concept?
Not only that, but characters in the lvl 6 to 20 range are no longer bound by reality anyways. Sure, a 25th level barbarian like *Hulk* is a beast. But what about Sir Cai? Achilles? Beowulf? Those aren't epic. They are *just* above level 6, in the 6th to 20 range. And they do a lot of awesome things. Things I can't do with a pathfinder fighter, because someone, some day, decided that the DnD fighter mold is Boromir, who is level 4th, and we are bound to him.
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This thread makes me question the future of the 20d system. When they went from 3.5 to Pathfinder they had raise the power on all of class (including wizards and their ilk), why because no one would be interested in playing a game where the version of their favorite class is less powerful then it's predecessor (sorry druids)
We all know its not the martial classes that are the problem but the spellcasters. Their power should have been dialed back. But doing this would make the wizard majority very upset and upset people don't buy books e.i. 4E.
It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
What do you mean by strictly martial?
Anything a normal person in our world might have trouble doing, such as punching people and turning them into stone, hitting the ground hard enough so that nearby enemies fall down and/or turning the area into difficult terrain because you punched it so hard = That must be magic so martials should not be able to do it to some people.
And saying play E6 or E8 is not what most people want to hear, and it wont help both sides resolve their differences in versimilitude.
I am all for extraordinary things, but as the game is now, the modular/optional approach is the best way to do it in order to satisfy both sides.
Why is telling them "If you want to play a character who fights lots CR 1's, have you considered playing a level 6 character?" not a valid response?
If you know, or if one of them can explain it to me it'd be a big help, cause I personally can't follow the logic
Some of them are ok with fighters(fill in other martial as needed) doing normal things while casters are changing reality at higher levels.
Some of the others still want to take on high level beings like Pit Fiends. I guess due to playstyle being restricted to real world physics is ok.
As for TOB those maneuvers could be used with any class, just not as well as the classes from that book.
I know DSP is coming out with a similar book, if it is not already finished.
Not only that, but characters in the lvl 6 to 20 range are no longer bound by reality anyways. Sure, a 25th level barbarian like *Hulk* is a beast. But what about Sir Cai? Achilles? Beowulf? Those aren't epic. They are *just* above level 6, in the 6th to 20 range. And they do a lot of awesome things. Things I can't do with a pathfinder fighter, because someone, some day, decided that the DnD fighter mold is Boromir, who is level 4th, and we are bound to him.
I did stats for the classic story (not the Hollywood) Beowulf a long time ago (before APG) on the now-vanished Dicefreaks boards, and pegged him at 13th level.
Although he was fine at that level in plain attack bonus considerations in comparison to his opponents (the ultimately deadly one being a CR 14 crag linnorm), I did have to wildly break most game assumptions more complicated than attack bonus vs AC in order to get him anywhere near what classic story Beowulf accomplished. Much higher than expected non primary ability scores, custom feats to let him hold his breath for epically reasonable lengths, etc.
I might set up his combat powers slightly differently given the new books today, but the narrative scale game rules that needed to be wildly broken to reflect story-Beowulf, are no more fitting now, over four years and multiple Core books later, than they were then.
I'm not sure whether I could do what I need in Mythic, even. The mythic swimming power I saw gives a boost, but it doesn't seem to achieve even the feats of Beowulf, let alone the nine days and nine nights Arthurian narrative scale.*
*(it also doesn't even achieve the same scale as a nonmythic water breathing *spell*, and that's the kind of thing you start to notice automatically after a while...)
Whatever happens with the next version of Pathfinder, I think Paizo has identified a ton of areas that could be improved and would do the right thing by revisiting them. Many, many aspects of the system were more or less blindly grabbed and tied together as a system. It's created oddities. As Paizo has released its own systems from the ground up they've worked generally really well but they still feel off given the core of the system. I think most of the issues for martials arise out of this as a lot of the base assumptions from previous editions remain unchanged. Once Paizo gets around to revisiting them it will be a lot better. But, I think that's years off. While they do need to evolve the system with the times making a new edition inevitable, I don't think the current system has exhausted itself yet in spite of the potential gains a new one has.
Things I think martials could do
I think adding another system to martials is better than figuring out how to rework their feats and class features.
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The version of Cai that's a perfectly mundane Briton fighting against the barbarians overrunning post-Roman Britain is a thousand times more interesting than the one that can hold his breath for more than a week and is on fire because he's an actual character rather than some random amalgam of forgotten godlings repackaged as an anachronistic Christian knight.
Amalgams of forgotten godlings repackaged as anachronistic Christian knights can't be characters?
I think adding another system to martials is better than figuring out how to rework their feats and class features.
I agree in spirit. However, a LOT of feats are superfluous in that they are just common fighting techniques you can learn to do with 2 minutes on the internet or 30 seconds with most any competent sparring partner. Feats that can fit this description should be shoved out of being feats and just let them be tricks. My idea was to give all characters a new trick at every BAB increase. It appears as though you do something similar except mine are still opt-in rather than free. Though, given how your prerequisites stack it could be the same effect.
Edit: clarified wording
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While it does seem that "play E6 or E8" isn't what they want to hear I just can't fathom *why*.Because there is not, has never been, and probably will never be any substantial level of content support for E6 or E8 play.
Because even if there were martials don't get the abilities they should have at level 6 or 8 until level 16 or higher because the limited scope of realistic capabilities had to be stretched across all 20 character levels.
E6 and E8 aren't answers, they're just insults to throw at people who want some sense of limits in their gaming.
The version of Cai that's a perfectly mundane Briton fighting against the barbarians overrunning post-Roman Britain is a thousand times more interesting than the one that can hold his breath for more than a week and is on fire because he's an actual character rather than some random amalgam of forgotten godlings repackaged as an anachronistic Christian knight.
The books do support E6 and E8 play. If you want to play a Lord of the Rings campaign, you should just stick to levels 1-6, which the books fully support by providing all the rules needed to go from level 1 to 5. It also isn't an insult to suggest that they stick to a limited scope when they tell you want they a limited scope. I can't imagine people actually want to play Lord of the Rings past level 8, since a Level 9 Wizard could solo that campaign with a single days worth of spell preparation. Overland travel, weather and dangerous locations are only obstacles to a level 1-6 party, so if the GM wants to use those obstacles, he needs to stick that paradigm.
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The version of Cai that's a perfectly mundane Briton fighting against the barbarians overrunning post-Roman Britain is a thousand times more interesting than the one that can hold his breath for more than a week and is on fire because he's an actual character rather than some random amalgam of forgotten godlings repackaged as an anachronistic Christian knight.Amalgams of forgotten godlings repackaged as anachronistic Christian knights can't be characters?
Only if their using the mythic rules. Because when I think Mythic I think "You're an expert with weapons that rely on your agility." If you take one normal feat and mythic feat... you to can be an expert on using agile weapons! I mean can you imagine how mythic being good with agile weapons is? Like super mythic... no one could do that unless they were some kind of minor deity.
The above is of course all sarcasm. To be honest, I'd be fine with... pretty much all the martial mythic feats being just regular ones. I mean look at that OP Mythic Improved Trip ... half my tier to trips and AoOs against people that fail to trip, how is that character not a being from beyond the stars...
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Whatever happens with the next version of Pathfinder, I think Paizo has identified a ton of areas that could be improved and would do the right thing by revisiting them. Many, many aspects of the system were more or less blindly grabbed and tied together as a system. It's created oddities. As Paizo has released its own systems from the ground up they've worked generally really well but they still feel off given the core of the system. I think most of the issues for martials arise out of this as a lot of the base assumptions from previous editions remain unchanged. Once Paizo gets around to revisiting them it will be a lot better. But, I think that's years off. While they do need to evolve the system with the times making a new edition inevitable, I don't think the current system has exhausted itself yet in spite of the potential gains a new one has.
I new version may not be as far off as you might think. Change in editions, for the most part, is driven by the market. I would agree that they have not yet plumed the deepest depths of d20 system, heck they could make APs forever.
WotC's Next may be winner. It maybe a gamble to build a game foundation on a al carte system but if it works it may pacify the edition war. If it does fail I could see Pathfinder 2.0 being a collection of most popular Next rule modules.
This is fundamental difference between the camps. It isn't martial vs. caster.
It's Video Game/Anime Martial vs. Classic Story Martials.
The first camp wants martials to become like mythical demigods like Hercules, superheroes, or anime characters.
The second camp wants Launcelot, King Arthur, Aragorn, and Conan.
The first camp tells the second camp that those characters are low level concepts.
The second camp isn't buying that. Launcelot, Aragorn, King Arthur, and Conan were lvl 15 to 20 characters. Their abilities were founded in skill with weapons and knowledge, not magical anime/video game like powers. If we were to make high level martials with anime/video game powers, then we lose the highly skilled archetype who relies on nothing but his skill and ability with weapons. I don't want to lose that archetype because it is classic fantasy. It isn't limited to low level concepts like those in the first camp believe.
I know there are generational differences. The generation raised on video games/anime may one day decide things. I grew up reading Arthurian Legend, Lord of the Rings, Conan, and the like. That is my preference for certain martial archetypes like fighters, cavaliers, and the other mundane classes.
I like that fact Paizo builds fantasy archetypes rather than a one sized fits all. None of this "If the wizard can do this, then the fighter should have some way to do that as well". I prefer the feel right now where Paizo goes "This is a fantasy archetype you find in stories, what would it be able to do in the Pathfinder world". I hope they stick to that.
Hey. Guess what. You already have what you want based on what you are asking for.
And there isn't a level 20 martial character who can do really anything...without tons of magical toys. It is not based on his skill and ability with weapons. You've already got what you want. The cool thing about RPG's is if something changes...you don't have to do it.
Just because people want a different flavor than you doesn't mean you need to argue that they shouldn't. You already have what you like. You've said it several times.
I honestly don't know why you are even getting involved in any of this. So far I haven't seen you respond to anything that anyone has said about...well honestly...how you are wrong.
You have said nothing about the disparity that is being pointed out.
Again you have what you want from Martials evidently...so why do you feel you would have to do some sort of change to how you play them if there is another book that came out? You don't. And people who want them different don't have to just sit around do what they aren't enjoying. It is a game meant to be enjoyed. The rules are there for you to enjoy them already evidently and again, considering that fact, I don't know why you are trying to be a part of this discussion. We get that you think things are fine. Thank you for your input, now excuse us while we discuss what WE would like to see.
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The version of Cai that's a perfectly mundane Briton fighting against the barbarians overrunning post-Roman Britain is a thousand times more interesting
Speak for yourself. :p I'm pretty sure I could get enthusiastic about playing either - if I was playing whichever one in a game where it fit in.
I'm also not an Arthurian expert, but I suspect that the former Cai coexisted with a Merlin who was just a perfectly mundane Briton herbalist fighting against the barbarians overrunning post-Roman Britain.
Deus Ex Machina is strong with these comic heros...So Captain America, Hawkeye, the Black Knight and the Black Panther couldn't take out 4 enemy spellcasters?
Hmm.
Have to think about that. The comics certainly make it seem like they'd steamroll them.
==Aelryinth
The Panther can beat a god. Doesn't sound 10th level to me. Also...he can do it because of contingencies he has put in place. Give me a realistic method a 10th level fighter can have as a contingency in place, BASED SOLELY ON HIS FIGHTER ABILITIES, SKILLS, AND FEATS that will allow him to take out a 10th level wizard with the sort of reliability you are implying with the Black Panther.
I have not had anyone answer this yet. It always turns into go get a wizard or cleric to do X. That's not what I'm asking. Show me a realistic method of preparing that would give a fighter a 50/50 shot.
It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
Thanks. I agree with you.
May I ask though, why people say they want their martials to be strictly martial...anything we consider to magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it...when every martial needs to know how to fly, have a wizard/cleric cast buff spells on you and gets all sorts of gear that emulate magic? I don't even understand this thought, I'd appreciate if you can try to explain it better.
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It seems the problem is like it was in 3.5. Some of us want our martials to be strictly martial, anything we consider to be magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it. Others of us want our martials to be able to do extraordinary things and we can see accept that level X martials can do these things without being magic because they are that damned good.
The core game is not being rewritten, so an add-on system such as the mythic system or TOB's would fit. That way GM's/groups the want it can have it, and those that don't care for it won't have to worry about it.
Thanks. I agree with you.
May I ask though, why people say they want their martials to be strictly martial...anything we consider to magic or too far beyond "normal" makes us not like it...when every martial needs to know how to fly, have a wizard/cleric cast buff spells on you and gets all sorts of gear that emulate magic? I don't even understand this thought, I'd appreciate if you can try to explain it better.
Deeply intrenched fictional bias
Sweet. I can't wait to see the rebuttal for this.
Don't hold your breath. He hasn't actually done a rebuttal for anything I've said to him yet.
Haven't finished the thread yet and I'm calling it now.
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The reason why Martials are even remotely capable of defeating the "Evil Wizard" in most stories is because the "Evil Wizard' goes full retard last second. They decide that THEN would be an amazing time to go into a giant, overblown monolouge about how they are so amazing and wonderful and seem to become oblivious to the fighter the fighter as he regains his energy and stabs him like the retard that he is...
If the Evil Mage decides to... oh I don't know, blow him to smitherens right there, and skip the stupid monologue, the fighter would have no chance. The perfect example of this is Sauron from LoTR. The only reason why he lost is because, when he sundered Ilsildur's sword and had him backed into a corner, he decides to then SLOWLY BEND DOWN AND REACH FOR HIM... EVEN THOUGH HE STILL HAS 2/5 OF HIS BLADE STILL INTACT... AND WITH HIS HAND WITH HIS RING NO LESS. If Sauron had just decided to... oh I don't know, use his stupid big mace to just crush Ilsildur and just keep going on his merry way, that battle would probably be lost.
The thing you have to remember about most stories is that they are usually also ment to not just tell a tale, but to teach certain ideals, even if subconsiously. In many many MANY a story, the BBEG loses not because he is weaker or that the fighter is stronger, but because he has some stupid glaring weakness or habit that the protagonist takes advantage of. Like the "evil Wizard" "underestimating" the fighter and sending "just enough" to kill this guy who seems to be constantly screwing with his plans, instead of, oh Idk, sending his Balrogs from the get go when they are still level 6 instead of constantly sending things that JUST SO HAPPENS TO BE "Level Appropriate" TO GET THEM UP TO LEVEL 15... Like, if you have a bunch of level 15 assassins chilling in your command, WHY DIDN'T YOU USE THEM BEFORE???? Or the evil guy going into a giant monologue in which he gloats and teases the fighter and just walks away from him while he is down to just end up getting stabbed. Because you know, being "evil" automatically means you are the world's biggest narcissist.
I mean, if we had a mage villian who took every threat seriously and dealt with them accordingly and made sure to keep his defenses up he could probably take oer there world...
This thread makes me question the future of the 20d system. When they went from 3.5 to Pathfinder they had raise the power on all of class (including wizards and their ilk), why because no one would be interested in playing a game where the version of their favorite class is less powerful then it's predecessor (sorry druids)
We all know its not the martial classes that are the problem but the spellcasters. Their power should have been dialed back. But doing this would make the wizard majority very upset and upset people don't buy books e.i. 4E.
a) It's both, honestly. Yes, Casters need to be toned down*. But martials need to have their power boosted, too. Or perhaps not boosted in power, but at least in utility. Make it so that full attacking isn't so superior to every other option that no one ever does anything different. Make it so Combat maneuvers and other such mechanics scale well, even in high levels. Make it so skills aren't always overshadowed by spells, and that there are legitimate reasons why Disable Device and Stealth should be used, even if the wizard has Knock and Invisibility.
*Though I think it's important to look at where you're nerfing wizards. The boost to d6 HD and other such boosts that the Wizard and Sorcerer got above 3.5 didn't really cause the issues that make them able to curb-stomp martials at higher levels. All they did was make the class less frustrating at lower levels. Where the classes really needs adjustment is in the mid-high levels, so nerfs should be focused there, not on the levels where they're going to be weaker, anyway.
Actually PF nerfed casters pretty hard from 3.5.
Are PF casters stronger than 3.5 PH casters? No, and that is just from the spell list nerfs. All PF did was make the base caster class more attractive such that people didn't feel the need for 2-3 prestige classes.
PF casters only "appear" stronger.
ASIDE: No amount of caster nerfs will make martials more fun. It's a complete logical fallacy to entertain such an idea.
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Actually PF nerfed casters pretty hard from 3.5.
Are PF casters stronger than 3.5 PH casters? No, and that is just from the spell list nerfs. All PF did was make the base caster class more attractive such that people didn't feel the need for 2-3 prestige classes.
PF casters only "appear" stronger.
ASIDE: No amount of caster nerfs will make martials more fun. It's a complete logical fallacy to entertain such an idea.
I disagree, its simple human nature, when option A becomes less appealing option B by default becomes more appealing.
there is like 3 Ways to Get Ex Flight
1; get a flying mount, the downside is this mount is fragile, even as a companion, due to the lack of hit dice and low constitution bonus
2; play a Strix
3; Play a Sylph or Aasimaar whom spends 2 feats, the second of which is spent at 9th level and suffers from having drastically inferior flight to the Strix. with a lenient DM, a human or human halfbreed with the Human subtype could spend 3 feats to gain this ability from either parent.
7 Races that can potentially gain Ex flight
Strix; Free better version
Sylph; 2 Feat Expenditure
Aasimaar; 2 Feat Expenditure
*Human w/ Racial Heritage, 3 Feat Expenditure
*Half Elf w/ Racial Heritage 3 Feat Expenditure
*Half Orc w/ Racial Heritage; 3 feat Expenditure
*Gillman w/ Racial Heritage and Throwback; 3 feats and an alternate racial that strips away a lot of racial abilities
*Homebrewed Race with the (Human) Subtype or a Human Crossbreed Houseruled to count as human for the purpose of effects.
the 4 races marked with an asterisk require a lenient DM to give a generous interpretation of racial heritage that considered planetouched to be humanoids due them being at least half human. the Racial heritage chosen must be Aasimaar or Sylph. they all require a homegame to be utilized.
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Actually PF nerfed casters pretty hard from 3.5.
Are PF casters stronger than 3.5 PH casters? No, and that is just from the spell list nerfs. All PF did was make the base caster class more attractive such that people didn't feel the need for 2-3 prestige classes.
PF casters only "appear" stronger.
ASIDE: No amount of caster nerfs will make martials more fun. It's a complete logical fallacy to entertain such an idea.
The only real nerf to PF casters is Wish no longer crafts magic items in exchange for EXP in 6 seconds.
The only real nerf to PF casters is Wish no longer crafts magic items in exchange for EXP in 6 seconds.Actually PF nerfed casters pretty hard from 3.5.
Are PF casters stronger than 3.5 PH casters? No, and that is just from the spell list nerfs. All PF did was make the base caster class more attractive such that people didn't feel the need for 2-3 prestige classes.
PF casters only "appear" stronger.
ASIDE: No amount of caster nerfs will make martials more fun. It's a complete logical fallacy to entertain such an idea.
Also, many of the magic nerfs ended up working in casters favor, it used to be the Mind Blank and Protection from X completely invalidated an entire school of magic. Guess which class needed guaranteed protection against mind control the most? I'll give you a hint... its the ones that can't cast mind control spells and that have a poor will save. Oh hi there Rogue and Fighter.... how's it going.
Also, while the removing of xp costs from spells is actually a nerf (unless you are using Blood Money), since in 3.5 XP was a river, it indirectly serves to increase the use of many spells like Simulacrum, which players who were not familiar with the 3.5 XP system tended to avoid spells with an xp cost. This goes double for crafting, where now new players are perfectly willing to get a free discount on items by making themselves and once again guess which class benefits most from that? I'll give you a hint... they have Caster levels.
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Cant forget that nearlly all of the SoD spells have been nerfed to hell and back again. There are very few spells in pathfinder that outright kill a guy as opposed to 3.5 where PW:K, symbol of death, finger of death, disinigrate, wail of the banshee, and many other were straight up, make a save or die. Not the "take a lot of damage and die" that things like finger of death have become...
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Fun for martials aside, casters need to be knocked out of the nerf tree with the nerf bat, and to hit every nerf branch on the way down. I can think of some ugly but effective ways to do this. I can see why PF may not want to do this across the board, but it should be straightforward in casual (non-PFS) games. I think it would make it more fun for casters to inject some more challenge... and feeling more useful, relatively speaking, would probably increase martials' enjoyment as well. Why the bad feelings about just nuking casters? There's a lot they could lose and still be as viable as a fighter.
/fist bump
The books do support E6 and E8 play.Really? Care to list the long form adventure paths that stop the leveling normally at APL 6 or 8 and switch to a logarithmic power curve appropriate to continued wealth and feat accumulation and keep going?
You do know you can make your own campaign, right? You don't have to run APs to play Pathfinder. Personally, I don't like GMing 1st level games. But all the APs start at 1st level! Fortunately, I don't have to run APs, so it isn't an issue.
Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .
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So it looks like this has become less about what you'd like martials to do and more about some sort of argument. In any case, here are some things I'd like high level martials to be able to do...
*Be less gear dependent. For example, I'd like for a level 16 fighter with 18 Dexterity and no gear to default to being better at dodging an enemy's sword than a level 2 fighter with the same stats. I'd prefer for it to be significantly better, but at this point I'd settle for just a little better.
*Be able to deal with magic users on a one-on-one basis. This means things like better saves or spell resistance.
*Be able to do realistically impressive stuff. Not leap from city to city, but jumping rooftops even in heavy armor.
*Be able to put their skill to really good use in combat somehow.
So yeah, that's what I've got as far as ideas. I know that at least right now there aren't a lot o rules to support that first one.
The first one is a doozy. You can try and replace magic items with bonuses during leveling. I am not sure of the exact math but it can be done. Personally I'd prefer they bound the accuracy to achieve what you are looking for but the half level bonus of 4E has a lot of fans.
So it looks like this has become less about what you'd like martials to do and more about some sort of argument.
It seems like most discussions lamenting the plight of martials ends up in vindictive complaints about spell casters and rallying call for nerfs to other classes that dare be more interesting to play than a class that can only full-attack.
You know instead of actual fixes for martials.
Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .
Try to simulate that fight out with those levels as oppose to the lower levels.
And thank you for missing the point while smugly insulting everyone who doesn't have the time or writing chops to build a campaign from scratch.You do know you can make your own campaign, right? You don't have to run APs to play Pathfinder. Personally, I don't like GMing 1st level games. But all the APs start at 1st level! Fortunately, I don't have to run APs, so it isn't an issue.The books do support E6 and E8 play.Really? Care to list the long form adventure paths that stop the leveling normally at APL 6 or 8 and switch to a logarithmic power curve appropriate to continued wealth and feat accumulation and keep going?
Don't demand for a completely different system without expecting to do some work.
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The books do support E6 and E8 play.Really? Care to list the long form adventure paths that stop the leveling normally at APL 6 or 8 and switch to a logarithmic power curve appropriate to continued wealth and feat accumulation and keep going?
Sure. The list is there, right along the list of adventure paths that feature fighters capable of doing interesting things like those done by Beowulf, Cuchulain, Achilles and Hercules.
Don't you see it?Why is it insulting to suggest to keep playing E6, but it is not insulting to suggest go away and play some other game or use Mythic/epic stuff?
And thank you for missing the point while smugly insulting everyone who doesn't have the time or writing chops to build a campaign from scratch.
You are overestimating how much time and writing chops it takes to make your own campaign. Can you roleplay a PC? If so, you have most the skills you need to GM your own campaign.
Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .
I do. Boromir Is not Level 15. A level 15 fighter has 125hp and can survive falling from the White tower (max 120 damage), Boromir can't. A level 15 fighter has a CMB of +18 or more, able to Grapple a Rhinoceros (CMD 20) with a hand tied to his back. A level 15 fighter has +11 Fortitude save, meaning he's bassicaly inmune to Black adder (DC 11) and Arsenic (DC 13). A level 15 fighter can go toe to toe with CR 15 enemies such as Mature Red Dragons, Boromir would be eaten by one of those. Boromir can't do any of those things in the novels. He is not a level 15 fighter by D&D / pathfinder standards. He is level 4, that's why he need a full party to defeat a rock troll with the young template, that's why a worg/dire wolf make him work hard to defeat them.
Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .Try to simulate that fight out with those levels as oppose to the lower levels.
Pretty sure it works just fine, idk why it wouldn't. . .martials damage done continues to rise with levels just fine for it to work.
Pretty sure it works just fine, idk why it wouldn't. . .Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .Try to simulate that fight out with those levels as oppose to the lower levels.
I'm fairly certain that Boromir can't fight an ancient dragon(CR 16) on his own when he needed help to fight a cave troll. That can be inferred since you believe Boromir is level 15. It is also unlikely that Boromir can survive a 1000 foot drop like a level 15 character could.
Imo, Legolas was probably the highest CR there besides Gandalf. And even hes probably about 8th level.
Pretty sure it works just fine, idk why it wouldn't. . .Who on earth ever sad that Boromir was level 4 and that the Orcs that killed him were level 1? Sure some of them were, but I'm pretty sure Boromir was level 15 and he died fighting a dozen level 12 Orcs lead by a level 17 orc chief (the one who does the killing blow in the movie). . .Try to simulate that fight out with those levels as oppose to the lower levels.I'm fairly certain that Boromir can't fight an ancient dragon(CR 16) on his own when he needed help to fight a cave troll.
Imo, Legolas was probably the highest CR there besides Gandalf. And even hes probably about 8th level.
Why not? Cave Troll is what CR 12? Could have four or five levels of Fighter on top of that? CR 17 Cave Troll?
Seems like you are just guessing and assigning arbitrary levels to characters without any real specific reasons?