I see... If your rogue has 8 levels on the party or at least an XP advantage from solo-ing traps perhaps they appear better than they are.
It depended. If the party was in tow they got included in the XP split. I also had a habit of 'going rogue,' go figure, and sometimes I'd miss out on XP they got and sometimes I'd get XP they wouldn't. It was never the highest level character in the party as that character came in later in the campaign.
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Ah. We carry Smog Pellets, some have scrolls of glitterdust and the like. I think that deeper darkness thing is a home rule as the ability to see in it unless they are a fetchling or the like. Most of those creatures would also have light sensitivity to boot. I can not argue about anything having to do with mechanical balance when you bring home rules to the table.
That sounds more like a problem with players than the ninja class itself. I've seen a ninja that managed to wholesale slaughter the entire (oversized) party in Rise of the Runelords. ** spoiler omitted ** The copy won initiative, dropped into greater invis and began tearing the party apart. The only individual that was capable of casting see invisibility at that time died almost immediately. The rest of the party were picked off at the ninja's leisure. It had been given access to deeper darkness as a spell-like ability (and the ability to see in magical darkness) by that point, and thus even seeing invisibility really wouldn't have done any good. Note that this was a party of fully optimized characters in a game where the GM had been gong full throttle to kill us from the getgo.
Wasn't a home ruling. There are numerous ways to gain see in darkness legitimately without need to home rule anything. There had been no home rulings made what so ever for the ninja in question. It was, however, in the hands of a player with an excessive amount of skill in formulating plan after plan after plan. It's likely they had already determined exactly how to go about wiping the floor with the party.
Coincidentally, the party also had access to things such as glitter dust and smog pellets. The situation was sufficiently dire that they wouldn't have worked anyway. That ninja was literally built to thwart every single attempt by player or GM alike to stop it. They were even working on ways around true seeing. It's fair to say that the character was broken enough to where the GM should've forced them to replace it with a different one. The irony? It's really not difficult to create a ninja with the ability to counteract almost anything.
Anyway, my point was merely that as a class the ninja is a very solid choice. It brings a lot more to the table than the rogue both in terms of combat ability and utility. A single level dip in wizard will even make certain they always act in the surprise round, and odds are it's definitely going first in the surprise round if you've built it right.
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Not to mention at will ranged touch attacks.
You have a valid point.
One fun trick is to pick up any sort of low level wand that involves an attack roll. Your level of wizard will allow you to use it without having to roll UMD, SOOOOOO. Hey look, it's flying. Hey look you're invisible and shooting the crap out of it with acid arrow.
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Ah. We carry Smog Pellets, some have scrolls of glitterdust and the like. I think that deeper darkness thing is a home rule as the ability to see in it unless they are a fetchling or the like. Most of those creatures would also have light sensitivity to boot. I can not argue about anything having to do with mechanical balance when you bring home rules to the table.
That sounds more like a problem with players than the ninja class itself. I've seen a ninja that managed to wholesale slaughter the entire (oversized) party in Rise of the Runelords. ** spoiler omitted ** The copy won initiative, dropped into greater invis and began tearing the party apart. The only individual that was capable of casting see invisibility at that time died almost immediately. The rest of the party were picked off at the ninja's leisure. It had been given access to deeper darkness as a spell-like ability (and the ability to see in magical darkness) by that point, and thus even seeing invisibility really wouldn't have done any good. Note that this was a party of fully optimized characters in a game where the GM had been gong full throttle to kill us from the getgo.Wasn't a home ruling. There are numerous ways to gain see in darkness legitimately without need to home rule anything. There had been no home rulings made what so ever for the ninja in question. It was, however, in the hands of a player with an excessive amount of skill in formulating plan after plan after plan. It's likely they had already determined exactly how to go about wiping the floor with the party.
Coincidentally, the party also had access to things such as glitter dust and smog pellets. The situation was sufficiently dire that they wouldn't have worked anyway. That ninja was literally built to thwart every single attempt by player or GM alike to stop it. They were even working on ways around true seeing. It's fair to say that the character was broken enough to where the GM should've forced them...
The deeper darkness thing too was legit? Mind citing these? I can use that effectively in PFS. =D
Wouldn't have worked? Thwart True Seeing? I'd love to see those too.
Are these things that the rogue can't get magically? Because as far as I know, the only things ninja's get and rogues CANNOT get are charisma based Ki.
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Unfortunately it's not something that would work in PFS, though I wish it was. It was done via making a drow character and utilizing their racial feats to gain the same abilities present in drow nobles. Those have a wide array of at will spell-like abilities, one of which happens to be deeper darkness. A handful of wondrous items (and I believe a few buffs) will give you see in darkness.
There is really nothing here unavailable to rogues; they just won't be anywhere near as good at it for reasons to be noted below. That being said, I think there's a way to replace your spell-like ability with deeper darkness through tiefling racial feats. I could be wrong, but I think those might be PFS legal. Won't be an at will ability but it'll sure screw with GMs when you do it. The key factor missing comes in the form of the ninja's ability to abuse invisibility three ways to Sunday. Rogues can acquire both a ki pool and the ninja's ability to go invisible but uh... doesn't work so well. Their ki pool is terrible. Take a look at some of the different ki powers attainable by the ninja class through their acquisition of "ninja tricks." I believe you'll see why people constantly rate them higher than rogues.
Compare for a moment the rogue trick for a ki pool and the ninja's existing ki pool. Note their differences in functionality once you do.
you can play a half elf and get access to those SLA's as feats.
Why waste feats for an SLA when you can waste rogue talents?
I assume you are grabbing these for arcane strike.
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you can play a half elf and get access to those SLA's as feats.Why waste feats for an SLA when you can waste rogue talents?
I assume you are grabbing these for arcane strike.
It's been mentioned in reference to the unspeakably overpowered ninja discussed earlier in the thread. Someone wanted to know how to build around jank and a few details were laid out.
The unspeakably overpowered ninja? I assume you're referring to a specific ninja and not the class itself :)
It should be noted that Ucampaign actually has rules for characters gaining XP on downtime - it's meant as a "catch-up" mechanic in case the party has characters of different level. You trade one day of downtime for one CR-approriate encounter worth of XP.
That said, every party I've played PF in has simply used fiat leveling, typically at the progression rate suggested in the Adventure Path we're playing or the GM simply declaring a level up if it's not an AP.
Compare for a moment the rogue trick for a ki pool and the ninja's existing ki pool. Note their differences in functionality once you do.
The Rogue Ki Pool just sucks for anybody who isn't just dipping in Rogue from Monk.
Even then, you need a rather high WIS in order for it to be better than just taking an Extra Ki Feat.I used to think it was great, until I noticed the lack of extra attack, but even more crucially: the lack of scaling with Rogue level.
The Ninja abilities that swap out for Trapfinding and Uncanny Dodge are fair enough of a trade.
Ninjas getting a superior Ki Pool for Evasion just isn't balanced, nor is their better access to stronger Ninja Tricks.
I mean, that they still get a Ninja Trick at the same level as the Ki Pool is just baffling
when people would still think they were great if Ninja Ki Pool replaced both Evasion and the Rogue Trick at 2nd Level.
They lose out on some Rogue specific archetype options, but that doesn't really address the balance of the original trade.
Yes, my point was that only with those Archetypes could you remotly consider the classes close to balanced, and most would still say the Ninja wins, even if then the Rogue can bring stuff to the table that's plausibly worthwhile and attractive, that a Ninja might wish they could access by trading out their own abilities, e.g. Poison Use or Trick slots. Uncanny Dodge/Trapfinding are not in the running.
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Yes, my point was that only with those Archetypes could you remotly consider the classes close to balanced, and most would still say the Ninja wins, even if then the Rogue can bring stuff to the table that's plausibly worthwhile and attractive, that a Ninja might wish they could access by trading out their own abilities, e.g. Poison Use or Trick slots. Uncanny Dodge/Trapfinding are not in the running.
.. I'm pretty sure the ninja actually just starts with poison use. More than that, they get some trick/talent slots. They get enough slots to have all of the most optimal choices available.
Yeah I speak of an individual ninja. As a class ninja is well balanced. It's just got a lot of potential to become something exceedingly deadly in the right hands, but the same could be said for several classes.
I'm not sure a Ninja is well balanced. More effective than the Rogue, sure. But it's a class built around invisibility.
Consider this. The Rogue is a class that requires Sneak Attack in order to do good damage. Before level 10, Ninjas don't have any special ways of attaining Sneak Attack that Rogue's don't have, aside from burning 1 Ki point to gain a single Sneak Attack.
After level 10 this changes, but the Ninja becomes very reliant on his invisibility. When the enemies can't see through invisibility, great, the Ninja will cut them to pieces. But if they can, and many high level monsters can, the Ninja is reduced back to having no more than what the Rogue does in terms of getting off Sneak Attacks.
I'm talking about Ninja not having every Class Ability that many nice Rogue Archetypes require in order to swap out. Some Rogue Archetypes replace "Rogue Trick" at certain levels, Ninja Trick does not qualify for that even though you can use it to gain one of the options for Rogue Trick. (the Arch's that replace Rogue Trick also replace Rogue-unique Class Skills, Trap Finding/Sense, and UD/IUD anyways)
I'm not sure a Ninja is well balanced. More effective than the Rogue, sure. But it's a class built around invisibility.
Consider this. The Rogue is a class that requires Sneak Attack in order to do good damage. Before level 10, Ninjas don't have any special ways of attaining Sneak Attack that Rogue's don't have, aside from burning 1 Ki point to gain a single Sneak Attack.
After level 10 this changes, but the Ninja becomes very reliant on his invisibility. When the enemies can't see through invisibility, great, the Ninja will cut them to pieces. But if they can, and many high level monsters can, the Ninja is reduced back to having no more than what the Rogue does in terms of getting off Sneak Attacks.
Not really, you can forswear Vanish Trick completely and still be better off than Rogue.
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See invisible isn't actually as common as people seem to believe it is. Besides that, there are several other methods available to the ninja to still get off their sneak attack without having to rely on the flank. There are also ways to foil see invisibility. In any case, every class has weaknesses. A fighter's weakness, for example, is anything that moves a lot or forces it to make a will save. So the ninja has to find alternate ways of getting things done with see invisibility; it's easy to get sneak attacks even without vanishing trick.
@ Quandry: The ninja is treated as if it were a rogue archetype anyway. What this means is that it is ineligible for any rogue archetype even if it does meet some prerequisites. But yeah, other than that, I do see your point. I just don't feel the ninja needs anything added to it. It's a powerful option as-is.
Ninjas have the problem of being more MAD than Rogues, but they still manage to be more effective... Not that being more effective than Rogues is something to write home about.
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@TB: You can combine multiple archetypes as long as they don't replace the same abilities. As Ninja counts as Rogue, as long as it still has a Class Ability (same name, unmodified ability, same class level, making it the same swap) then it is eligible for Rogue Archetypes that replace that. Note that some Rogue archetypes change Class Skills or Weapon Proficiencies which Ninja does not have. Ninja does not explicitly say which features it replaces, but since we know it IS essentially a Rogue Archetype, if there are unmodified Rogue Abilities present, we can treat those as Rogue Abilities eligible to be replaced by Rogue Archetypes.
That means Bandit, Sanctified Rogue, Scout, Trapsmith, and Catfolk Catburglar are all Ninja-legit. (Bandit being the one Ninja definitely doesn't need)
"When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. ... All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise).
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature."
Ninjas have the problem of being more MAD than Rogues, but they still manage to be more effective... Not that being more effective than Rogues is something to write home about.
A ninja with 10 cha is better than a rogue.
Likewise the ninja doesn't eat, shit, and breathe skill mastery so int is less important.
20 point ninja stat array (half-elf): 10str 18dex 14con 12int 8wis 14cha
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@TB: You can combine multiple archetypes as long as they don't replace the same abilities. As Ninja counts as Rogue, as long as it still has a Class Ability (same name, unmodified ability, same class level, making it the same swap) then it is eligible for Rogue Archetypes that replace that. Note that some Rogue archetypes change Class Skills or Weapon Proficiencies which Ninja does not have. Ninja does not explicitly say which features it replaces, but since we know it IS essentially a Rogue Archetype, if there are unmodified Rogue Abilities present, we can treat those as Rogue Abilities eligible to be replaced by Rogue Archetypes.
That means Bandit, Sanctified Rogue, Scout, Trapsmith, and Catfolk Catburglar are all Ninja-legit. (Bandit being the one Ninja definitely doesn't need)
"When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. ... All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise).
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature."
They've gone out of their way to note that the ninja is not eligible to take any rogue archetypes. Doesn't matter if they can qualify or not.
OK, I'm not sure what you're referring to,
or how to reconcile that with your previous statement (consistent with Paizo dev statements that I've seen):
"The ninja is treated as if it were a rogue archetype anyway"
If there's some other statement precluding that, then great, because I don't think they should access any of those Rogue Archetypes.
Rogue Tricks suck. If there are any good ones, Ninjas can get them too.
They either need new ones with Pre Reqs that Ninjas can't meet, or Archetypes that replace "Rogue Trick" that Ninja also couldn't possibly gain. Really, Errata for stuff like Rogue Ki Pool, and other existing features should be done to bring them up to par as well.
Ninjas have the problem of being more MAD than Rogues, but they still manage to be more effective... Not that being more effective than Rogues is something to write home about.About as MAD as a paladin if you are willing to suffer with a little suck till you can get agile on your weapons.
Not really. Paladins can afford to dump Wisdom. Thanks to their good will save progression and Divine grace. They also don't need to pump Dex to have good AC.
A ninja with 10 cha is better than a rogue.
Likewise the ninja doesn't eat, s!**, and breathe skill mastery so int is less important.
20 point ninja stat array (half-elf): 10str 18dex 14con 12int 8wis 14cha
Skill Mastery is really not as good as you think. It's a nice ability, but it isn't all that... You speak as if it were a game changer, but it's just an okay ability. Besides, oddly enough, Int and Cha are the only attributes that Rogues can dump, but who wants to play a Rogue with low Int and low Cha?
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Not really. Paladins can afford to dump Wisdom. Thanks to their good will save progression and Divine grace. They also don't need to pump Dex to have good AC.Ninjas have the problem of being more MAD than Rogues, but they still manage to be more effective... Not that being more effective than Rogues is something to write home about.About as MAD as a paladin if you are willing to suffer with a little suck till you can get agile on your weapons.
That's kind of what I meant. A ninja with agile weapons honestly doesn't need a strength score at all. You could even cannibalize it in point buy and get by just fine. A 14 con, about what you'd want on a paladin as well, will be acceptable for a ninja also. With this your attack, damage, and AC are all coming off the same stat while your other functions run off CHA. Their high skill point gain means you don't really have to raise INT, though you may want to just on principle. Wisdom is good being left at a 10 with how many different ways there are to raise saves.
That's kind of what I meant. A ninja with agile weapons honestly doesn't need a strength score at all. You could even cannibalize it in point buy and get by just fine. A 14 con, about what you'd want on a paladin as well, will be acceptable for a ninja also. With this your attack, damage, and AC are all coming off the same stat while your other functions run off CHA. Their high skill point gain means you don't really have to raise INT, though you may want to just on principle. Wisdom is good being left at a 10 with how many different ways there are to raise saves.Not really. Paladins can afford to dump Wisdom. Thanks to their good will save progression and Divine grace. They also don't need to pump Dex to have good AC.Ninjas have the problem of being more MAD than Rogues, but they still manage to be more effective... Not that being more effective than Rogues is something to write home about.About as MAD as a paladin if you are willing to suffer with a little suck till you can get agile on your weapons.
He can't dump it, though. Otherwise he won't be able to carry his own equipment. And how long must he survive before he can afford an agile weapon? It's even more costly if he wants to TWF.
After a while, saves become kinda difficult to raise, and that poor will save progression really hurts. I'd suggest Wis 12~14 to any Rogue who plans to survive past 9th level.
Skill Mastery is really not as good as you think. It's a nice ability, but it isn't all that... You speak as if it were a game changer, but it's just an okay ability. Besides, oddly enough, Int and Cha are the only attributes that Rogues can dump, but who wants to play a Rogue with low Int and low Cha?A ninja with 10 cha is better than a rogue.
Likewise the ninja doesn't eat, s!**, and breathe skill mastery so int is less important.
20 point ninja stat array (half-elf): 10str 18dex 14con 12int 8wis 14cha
It's the only thing the rogue has, you have to milk it. MAKE IT MATTER.
Being able to remove the random element to a skill is pretty awesome.
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It's the only thing the rogue has, you have to milk it. MAKE IT MATTER.
A mediocre ability doesn't suddenly become better just because it's "unique".
Being able to remove the random element to a skill is pretty awesome.
It's pretty cool, yeah. Powerful? Not really.
It isn't a bad ability by any means, but it's not antyhing impressive either.
It's the only thing the rogue has, you have to milk it. MAKE IT MATTER.A mediocre ability doesn't suddenly become better just because it's "unique".
Being able to remove the random element to a skill is pretty awesome.It's pretty cool, yeah. Powerful? Not really.
It isn't a bad ability by any means, but it's not antyhing impressive either.
Eh you can go from probably feinting an opponent to auto feinting all opponents anywhere near your CR. Plus auto bluffs.
You go from auto using wands to auto using scrolls and saves with constant CL and ability score.
You go from risky acrobatics jumps to constant safe jumps. If you are a cautious player that's an extra 9ft of jumping. Also if you can tumble past a foe once, you know you can always tumble past them.
Taking 10 on stealth lowers the possible roll spread to 10 from 19.
Not nearly good enough, but it is the rogue's strongest trick.
Like I said... It's a nice trick, but it isn't impressive for a 10th level ability.
It follows the mantra of the Rogue class: "That's nice, I guess..."
No it's pretty solid for a 10th level ability.
Would be nice if the rest of the kit could keep up.
Let's agree to disagree, then.
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Let's agree to disagree, then.
On the internet IN A ROGUE THREAD!
I think not good sir!
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Well I will say one thing. My own ninja uses TWF and has a bunch of mithral gear + agile weapons. He has a 7 STR and has at no point had difficulty in carrying anything. It took a little bit to get both weapons agile, I will admit, but I found I was doing comparable damage to most characters regardless due to the whole pop invisible and sneak attack things schtick. At low levels nothing is going to see through it. The damage increased considerably once both weapons were agile. And by considerably I mean it would DPR a dual wielding ranger under the table even without sneak attacking.
Even low CR spiders have tremorsense. It won't stop you from getting sneak attacks but don't think you're going unnoticed.
By the time ninjas become reliant on invisibility, rogues can rely on items or teammates providing greater invisibility. The ninja is never happier than between 2nd level and about 6th, with their bursty extra attack. Rogues still have evasion, plenty of re-usable abilities, and other advantages. Rogues and ninjas are essentially interchangeable. It's just when you take a magnifying glass to them, ki pool is slightly stronger than evasion or the strongest rogue talent, and the wakizashi is slightly better, at least in theory, than a shortsword or rapier. But if you are not invested in ki, then the weapon differences are not enough to outweigh whatever roguish thing you were planning on doing instead.
Rogues are slightly better dragonslayers than ninjas. Evasion is where it's at when you are fighting dragons, and invisibility is not so hot against a spellcasting monster with blindsense. Throwing extra sneak attack shurikens when the moment is right is still a good move, but it's not all that.
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By the time ninjas become reliant on invisibility, rogues can rely on items or teammates providing greater invisibility. The ninja is never happier than between 2nd level and about 6th, with their bursty extra attack. Rogues still have evasion, plenty of re-usable abilities, and other advantages. Rogues and ninjas are essentially interchangeable. It's just when you take a magnifying glass to them, ki pool is slightly stronger than evasion or the strongest rogue talent, and the wakizashi is slightly better, at least in theory, than a shortsword or rapier. But if you are not invested in ki, then the weapon differences are not enough to outweigh whatever roguish thing you were planning on doing instead.
Rogues are slightly better dragonslayers than ninjas. Evasion is where it's at when you are fighting dragons, and invisibility is not so hot against a spellcasting monster with blindsense. Throwing extra sneak attack shurikens when the moment is right is still a good move, but it's not all that.
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Not to mention the fact that you can grab evasion as a ninja trick if you want it. The ninja simply brings more to the table than the rogue. It can do anything the rogue can do plus a lot of things it can't do. You can give them the ability to disable magical traps, they are FAR better at stealth, and guess what? The ninja already needs CHA anyway. Go go UMD. By the by, blindsense doesn't stop them from sneak attack spamming you. A ninja with a 14 CON is going to be plenty capable of staying on the front lines, and their innately high AC if built correctly will give them a fair chance of simply avoid damage to begin with.
The ninja class is comparable to barbarian in terms of functionality, ease of use and ease of optimization; rogue is not.
Barbarians are beasts. My earlier build doing 2d6+28 wasn't even TRYING to do damage. He was a superstitious build whose class features went to saves versus spells. That +28 is just weapon enhancement, power attack, and rage. That could easily be a +32 or even a +36 if I gave a damn. Please, don't compare barbarians built for damage to rogues. My earlier statement was a generality. But, the barbarian is a beast. Any class optimized for the innate goodness is going to excel at it.
its a good class but NOTHING is comparable to the barbarian in those areas.Every spell caster in the game would like a word with you.
Bring it. I'll tear your spells down with my fists.
Just realized this is off-topic. /hangs head
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Oh I don't know. I think that dual wielding damage ninja doing 1d6+15 and critting into 2d6+30 pretty often due to 15-20/x2 crit range plus the sneak attack dice will keep up nicely with a barbarian, though it will not quite keep up in DPR overall.
As for barbarians, my level 13 PFS legal barbarian is sitting on about 2d6+45 per weapon swing plus its two natural attacks and the stupid amount of extra ticks of elemental damage going off. Believe me, I know full well how powerful barbarians are.
... And yeah, good point. This IS off topic. Gordommot.
Anyway, fact of the matter is that I have both played and played with optimized rogues, ninjas, and barbarians from level 1 all the way to very high level. I have not found the ninja to lag behind other DPR classes at all; my ninja might not necessarily be equal to my barbarian, but it doesn't lag behind either. I found the two classes equally easy to break to a point that I was all but forbidden from ever using them again. Rogue, on the other hand, paled in comparison to both despite trying out several different "optimal" builds. It just can't cut it.
"Miracle duplicating Geas/Quest".
Thus spoke the God of Half-Elves and his victory was won.
Okay... so, keeping this as brief as possible as I don't use HL so this isn't just a copy/paste job for me. The attack portions are:
Wraith Slayer, shoanti superstitious barbarian 11
+24/20/17/12 doing 2d6+28
+2 furious greatsword with rage, power attack, and furious focus
Variel Thrune, elf rogue 11
+15/15/15/10/10 doing 1d6+8 w/ 6d6 sneak attacks
2, +1 agile shortswords with twf, gtr twf, and double slice
dex of 24 for +7
I'm remembering I did factor in haste in my numbers before. We have a wizard who casts haste like it's going out of style. It was an assumption when building these characters.
Hmm... Variel's numbers are only coming to 105 on average. Unsure where I was getting the rest looking at the sheet now. Wraith Slayer's come to 136. So, not as close as I was thinking. Variel's damage isn't bad to any degree, though.
First of all the barbarian's numbers seem a little off, i assume that his STR is 24 before rage. If i am correct, and including haste (without including things like reckless abandon or witch hunter or improved critical or courageous weapon) his attack routine should be:
+26/+23/+18/+13 doing 2d6+28.Now if we have both of them full attack against an AC of 25 and the rogue applies his sneak attack on all of his attacks, the DPR for each one are:
Wraith Slayer 117.425 DPR
Variel Thrune 75.7125 DPRSo no, not close.
Thanks leo1925.
In order for us to have a healthy and sober discussion regarding the rogue it is time we finally can debunk the myth of SA (Sneak attack) being good.The problem with the two builds are that the rogue is optimized in that he uses an weapon property/ability that is banned from the core rules/PRD. It uses the agile weapon. I repeat it again: Any weapon property, ability or feat that let you use dex instead of str is banned from the core book line/PRD.
Likewise the barbarian is totally un-optimized in that he doesn’t even have improved crit. Nor does he use a falchion or any rage powers such pounce, come and get me, reckless abandon or unexpected strike. Come and get me would not only double the barbarian’s attack for a round, all attacks would also be made at full BAB, and as pointed out by you, nor does the Barbarian use cheesy stuff like the courageous weapon properly.
So let’s just compare two normally built classes, without cheese?
A) Same barbarian as above but let’s add improved crit (great sword) and a +4 str item.
B) Same rogue without the Agile weapon property but with a +4 dex item. Let’s add improved crit just for the sake of it. We assume the rogue got 14 str.
C) Just for fun, same barbarian with improved crit, great sword and come and get me. Let’s assume combat reflexes and dex 14
D) Same barbarian with improved crit but not raging and same rogue not using sneak attack and not using agile weapon.
BTW, if the rogue gonna use cheesy stuff like agile weapon then the Barbarian should be able to use cheesy stuff as well, like Come and get me, reckless abandon and courageous weapon
The problem with the rogue is that a lot of people think the rogue’s SA is good or at least even descent. The fact that it is hard to use (needs flanking and can’t swift feint so full attacks are hard to execute), creatures and conditions makes SA useless and SA doesn’t multiply on a critical hit, makes SA far more problematic than people acknowledge.
I’m not saying the rogue should be as good as a barbarian or as any full BAB class, but the problem is that even when the rogue get to use her precious ability with a precious full attack on a creature that is immune to SA in conditions that doesn’t render SA useless, the rogue can’t even keep up with any descent class. I seriously doubt it can even keep out with a descent built Bard. I would even be surprise if a dex built rogue without agile weapon could keep up with a non raging barbarian.
Since my math is pretty bad I hope leo1925 or anyone else can help us out.