I want to get a GM opinion on the Trip combat maneuver. One of the changes they made in Pathfinder from DnD 3.5 is that it is possible to make a Trip combat maneuver instead of an attack of opportunity. Now I've never played with it this way in my games, because I remember how awful it was in DnD 3.0 when a character would trip lock someone (you trip them, they try to get up>provoke an AoE, then get tripped again). I don't see much on the boards or in optimization guides about Trip locking so I'm curious as to how effective it really is, and if I should open it up in my game.
Do any GMs or players have any experience with allowing Trip combat maneuvers during attacks of opportunity?
i've never seen anyone do it in my personal experience. It's harder than you might think. Performing a trip CM itself provokes an AoO, which, if hits, adds a penalty to your CM equal to damage dealt. Trip locking someone is therefore very difficult out of the gate.
Not to say there aren't some builds for it. You can of course get around the AoO problem by taking Improved Trip, but that requires Combat Expertise which is a feat nobody wants to take.
Outside of particular trip builds, it's not a good option.
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there is no triplocking any more.
the AoO from standing up interrupts (occurs before) you actually stand up, so if they use it to re-trip you you're still on the ground (which was already the case) and then you finish your action (standing the rest of the way up).
a trip build can still be effective (especially with a reach weapon and combat reflexes- it becomes very difficult for humanoids to get to or past you), but not at all game breaking.
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Trip locking isn't possible.
While you're standing up from prone you still have the prone condition. This means that you are immune to trip, as well as having -4ac.
I believe this was addressed as a FAQ, but someone with more time available will need to find it.
EDIT:
Q: Does tripping some standing up cause them to stay prone or lose their move-action? This is known as 'Trip Locking' on the paizo forums.
A: (Official FAQ 8/13/10) No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.
So AOO get resolved before the triggering action, therefore they are still prone.
I don't think trip locking is possible. Yes, standing up provokes, but the Aoo goes off before you stand up, so you can not trip them with an Aoo. But you could always trip them again on your next turn.
there is no triplocking any more.
the AoO from standing up interrupts (occurs before) you actually stand up, so if they use it to re-trip you you're still on the ground (which was already the case) and then you finish your action (standing the rest of the way up).
a trip build can still be effective (especially with a reach weapon and combat reflexes- it becomes very difficult for humanoids to get to or past you), but not at all game breaking.
Nate: I don't see any evidence in the SRD that says the AoE happens before or after the target stands up. Is there something in the FAQ about it?
Sorry I saw the title and thought this thread was about those 3 foot furry critters from Endor and how they used logs to trip those pesky Imperial Walkers...
YUB! YUB! :)
Trip builds are like almost all combat maneuver builds in 3.5, okay to great at low levels, marginal at early mid...and a waste of feats at middle to upper levels. With a few optimized exceptions, it just isn't worth it in the long run.
Trip is worse because there are so many ways around it. Flying, serpent, limbs, or just a big monster...and they are plenty of those as you level up.
<edit to add info>
JB has already spoken to this (no):http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l0rq&page=3?TripLocking-Doesnt-Work-Offici al-Ruling-or-Not#111
Ah nevermind Nate, Rerednaw posted the link to Jason's ruling which supports your earlier statement. That does settle that. Thanks guys!
AoOs, readied actions, and other interrupts always occur in virtual time before the action they trigger.
I want to get a GM opinion on the Trip combat maneuver. One of the changes they made in Pathfinder from DnD 3.5 is that it is possible to make a Trip combat maneuver instead of an attack of opportunity. Now I've never played with it this way in my games, because I remember how awful it was in DnD 3.0 when a character would trip lock someone (you trip them, they try to get up>provoke an AoE, then get tripped again). I don't see much on the boards or in optimization guides about Trip locking so I'm curious as to how effective it really is, and if I should open it up in my game.
Do any GMs or players have any experience with allowing Trip combat maneuvers during attacks of opportunity?
That doesn't work, and in fact, it NEVER worked in 3e. The trigger for the AoO occurs while the target is still prone, and you can't trip someone who's already prone. Any GM who permitted this to work was not following the rules of the game.
Nate: I don't see any evidence in the SRD that says the AoE happens before or after the target stands up. Is there something in the FAQ about it?there is no triplocking any more.
the AoO from standing up interrupts (occurs before) you actually stand up, so if they use it to re-trip you you're still on the ground (which was already the case) and then you finish your action (standing the rest of the way up).
a trip build can still be effective (especially with a reach weapon and combat reflexes- it becomes very difficult for humanoids to get to or past you), but not at all game breaking.
AoOs have to go off before the event that triggers them, or they don't work.
If someone moves out of a square I threaten, I get an AoO ... but if it goes off after they complete the action, they're 30' away by the time I get to swing.
If someone provokes an AoO from me for casting a spell, and I don't get to take the AoO before the spell is complete, why would they need to make a concentration check? The spell is already cast and gone.
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Tripping (or disarming) can be excellent.
However... Don't make a buld that is only good at tripping.
You still have to be able to do damage after you tripped (or disarmed) the opponent.
Many things can't be (or horrifically difficult to) tripped.
Like anything else. One trick ponies are of limited utility when their trick doesn't apply.
If, on the other hand, you make a THW fighter with a reach weapon for area denial and give him improved trip, well he can work pretty well. When the flying snakes show up, he is still a THW fighter that is getting lots of AoO and doing significant damage when he hits.
You can't trip lock them, but you CAN disarm them, which will be easier, since -4 AC penalty to AC also counts against CMD. Then they can stand up, but they won't have a weapon to hit you with. Then they'll have to use their standard action as a move to pick up their weapon, drawing a second AoO if you have Combat Reflexes, allowing you to re-trip them, thus trip locking them.
Of course, this is only REALLY useful if you are fighting humanoid foes who use weapons, so it really depends on the kind of DM you have.
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This thread title was awesome. Someone needs to write a guide to a trip (insert class here) named "He Be Trippin'."
I have seen a monk/paladin/champion of irori abuse triplocking. He somehow trips them, they are on the ground so he gets an aoo,they get up he gets another, so he trips them and gets an aoo AGAIN. omg I'm just glad he is in my party and I'm not the GM. This guy optimized tripping. He has successfully tripped creatures with 4+ legs. It is truly absurd.
I wouldn't mind being in that party, or being the GM; either way, I'd be informing that player, and the rest of the group, that it simply doesn't work, for reasons stated above.
There are ways, but they are awfully designer. Reach weapons and the flowing monk for example.
Immediate action trip as flowing monk.
Reach weapon +combat reflexes, especially whips, are awful for this.
Basic tripping though, yeah you can pretty much do it to them once a turn without some fancy aoo circumstantial footwork.
I must admit I am slightly disappointed this wasn't a thread about hallucinogenic astral projection...