So the new Ultimate Combat errata is out, and Crane Wing has been nerfed to just a +4 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively. The deflection is still there if taking total defence, but who ever does that?
Does anyone forsee crane wing being used at all anymore, or is it now just another one of the many styles that almost never see any use?
does anyone forsee crane wing being used at all anymore, or is it now just another one of the many styles that almost never see any use?
Well, it lost what I thought was its biggest attraction, but it still has the bonus of making fighting defensively go from crap to viable. Unfortunately its a 3 feat long chain, and that's if you skip prereqs, and the main guy who skips prereqs is the monk, who can't really afford to lose much attack usually.
Then again, I see people use rumormonger and charlatan rogue and claim they're awesome, but I don't think that's really a fair way to measure things.
Wait, if this is the case, how does Crane Riposte work?
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Wait, if this is the case, how does Crane Riposte work?
It doesn't.
Definitely disappointed by this. Crane Wing was one of my favorite examples of what a martial feat should be like.
At least it sounds like it'll still be useable with Blundering Defense, fringe as that is.
Edit: nm, does nothing with Blundering Defense.
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You have to take total defence to activate Crane Riposte.
Link to this errata?
Link to this errata?
I'm bad at linking, but if you look under the general discussion it gets linked there and is being talked about currently.
... this errata is just..... dumb.... I'm disappointed....
Wtf, Paizo?! This errata is awful! Crane Wing went from an useful, but easily countered feat to a completely worthless one.
Here is a list of things that counter Crane wing:
- ranged attacks
- most combat maneuvers
- multiple attacks
- spells
- catching your opponent flat-footed
All of these are extremely common! Why the hell nerf CW???
Tsc... Martials truly can't have nice things...
Okay, looked into it a bit more.
I suppose +4 AC for one attack a round isn't the worrst thing in the world. I mean that's not a bad deal.
The main flaw is that Crane Riposte hasn't also been errata'd, going now from "once a round" to "basically never."
I don't see anything.
There is no Crane Wing errata.
Ultimate Combat errata. Go download it. But for your viewing pleasure.
Once per round, when fighting defensively
with at least one hand free, you can designate one melee attack being made against you before the roll is made. You receive a +4 dodge bonus to AC against that attack. If you using the total defense action instead, you can deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack so deflected deals no damage and has no other effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
This renders Crane Riposte completely non-functional as you can't take AoOs in a Total Defense.
Emphasis where no one will ever use this thing again.
I suppose +4 AC for one attack a round isn't the worrst thing in the world. I mean that's not a bad deal.
However its before the attack is made. Which means you probably just pick one attack and say "yeah that one!" trying to guess which one gives you the most boom for your buck, and it may not do a thing. Its got very little value because its called before.
I don't see anything.
There is no Crane Wing errata.
Ultimate Combat errata. Go download it. But for your viewing pleasure.
Once per round, when fighting defensively
with at least one hand free, you can designate one melee attack being made against you before the roll is made. You receive a +4 dodge bonus to AC against that attack. If you using the total defense action instead, you can deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack so deflected deals no damage and has no other effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.This renders Crane Riposte completely non-functional as you can't take AoOs in a Total Defense.
Emphasis where no one will ever use this thing again.
Even if they clarify in the future that crane riposte gets the ability to make that 1 special crane riposte aoo, it's a major downgrade to a decent feat.
I really don't get this downgrade. Does deflect arrow deserve similar treatment?
I suppose +4 AC for one attack a round isn't the worrst thing in the world. I mean that's not a bad deal.However its before the attack is made. Which means you probably just pick one attack and say "yeah that one!" trying to guess which one gives you the most boom for your buck, and it may not do a thing. Its got very little value because its called before.
Oh woah, I didn't realize Crane Wing was so awesome (emphasis on was). I still think it'd be worthwhile if it still allowed for Crane Riposte.
Awesome. Thanks Paizo!
why? I genuinely don't see the merit in nerfing the feat this much. I could even understand if they pushed back the deflection until the 3rd part of the feat chain, but to remove it entirely from fighting defensively is just bad.
Heck even allowing you to use it after an attack roll is made would make it semi-functional.
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I would've preferred to see fixed: Natural Attacks making a mockery of BAB based iteratives.
I don't see anything.
There is no Crane Wing errata.
I had a difficult time finding it too. Direct link to the download: http://paizo.com/download/pathfinder/PZO1118-Errata-20140122-1.0.zip
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Honestly, what kind of non-nonsensical logic was used here?
"What's this? People are taking an option other than Power Attack and Weapon Focus? A Defensive feat is actually useful? WE CAN'T HAVE NONE OF THAT!"
*nerfs Crane Wing into uselessness*
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Honestly, what kind of non-nonsensical logic was used here?
"What's this? People are taking an option other than Power Attack and Weapon Focus? A Defensive feat is actually useful? WE CAN'T HAVE NONE OF THAT!"
*nerfs Crane Wing into uselessness*
Now we need to have a 2nd level spell that as a swift action lets you negate one melee attack used against you. It'll last 1/round per level and we'll call it "Wings of the Crane". No relation to Crane Wing, of course.
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Impressive... they manage to errata a feat nearly out of existense. I've yet to see total defense used in melee (when facing a ranged oponent, can be useful) so basically, the deflection cant be used.
Considering the limited utility crane wing already had, I'm surprised they found this necessary. Sigh... well, a half-dozen possible builds down the drain. My internal sarcasmometer is going nuts, so I better silence myself before saying something to get me banned.
"What's this? People are taking an option other than Power Attack and Weapon Focus? A Defensive feat is actually useful? WE CAN'T HAVE NONE OF THAT!"
It was probably something more like "With this feat, a level 5 monk fighting against a level 5 martial with 1 melee attack/round is basically invulnerable."
While other posters have mentioned that in a group setting it probably wasn't unbalanced (because of ranged attacks, spells, multiple attacks, etc.) in 1 on 1 situations, especially at low levels, it was incredibly powerful.
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Yay! I am the opposite of disappointed.
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While other posters have mentioned that in a group setting it probably wasn't unbalanced (because of ranged attacks, spells, multiple attacks, etc.) in 1 on 1 situations, especially at low levels, it was incredibly powerful.
The game never handled 1 vs 1 that well anyway, imo. Especially with martials. "I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "you can't full attack!" "Why not?" "Cuz you dead!".
THIS is why I don't worship at the altar of 'balance at the expense of fun'.
Way to knock those martials down a peg or two, Paizo... they really had it coming.
Good thing the campaign that I had a Master of Many Styles in has completed, because if I had to do it again now, I'd have to do it completely differently.
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"What's this? People are taking an option other than Power Attack and Weapon Focus? A Defensive feat is actually useful? WE CAN'T HAVE NONE OF THAT!"It was probably something more like "With this feat, a level 5 monk fighting against a level 5 martial with 1 melee attack/round is basically invulnerable."
While other posters have mentioned that in a group setting it probably wasn't unbalanced (because of ranged attacks, spells, multiple attacks, etc.) in 1 on 1 situations, especially at low levels, it was incredibly powerful.
So...? How often does that even happen? Most enemies will have allies to help them and at least one secondary offensive combat style. Can't hit it with a melee attack? Use a freaking bow.
There is nothing wrong with the feat being really good in one specific situation that doesn't come up very often.
Gods, this nerf is a horrible, horrible ruling. I've seen this feat in play many, many times, and even GMed for characters who use it. It never, not even once, proved to be a problem.
The feat is not just worse than it was, it was made all but completely useless.
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Time to retrain a feat I guess. I must admit I am puzzled by this decision but I can see how difficult it made some fights. I recall going against a number of creatures that could only hit my AC on a 20 and if they did, using crane wing.
I can see situations where fighting a creature with a single attack that the feat can totally negate that creature's offensive, think ghosts, spectres, shadows and others with only a single attack, crane wing basically could be used to negate their ability to damage you at all while still allowing you full offense at worse at a -2, does seem strong.
Seems to me though a mechanic more like the Swashbuckler's parry, which allows a roll vs. roll to negate the attack would have made more sense than just a bonus vs. AC.
Now strangely enough I might keep crane riposte because as an MoMS I don't need the prereqs for it but I will probably retrain out of crane wing since it doesn't add anything to the build I am using.
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Time to retrain a feat I guess. I must admit I am puzzled by this decision but I can see how difficult it made some fights. I recall going against a number of creatures that could only hit my AC on a 20 and if they did, using crane wing.
If they only hit you on a 20, Crane Wing is not to blame for it being an easy fight.
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Disgusting nerf. If balance is a concern then 9th level spells should be banned outright instead of contorting existing rules surrounding a single Style in order to make it effectively worthless.
I will say thank god someone did something to reign in those Monks. Who hasn't had a campaign ruined by their overpowered abilities? Now if someone would just do something about that game-breaking Sneak Attack...
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Time to retrain a feat I guess. I must admit I am puzzled by this decision but I can see how difficult it made some fights. I recall going against a number of creatures that could only hit my AC on a 20 and if they did, using crane wing.If they only hit you on a 20, Crane Wing is not to blame for it being an easy fight.
Without Crane, those crappy swarms of monsters who traditionally need a 20 to hit either have enough attacks that they can fish the 20 (while Power Attacking, since why not if you need a 20 anyway?) or if not could make worthwhile Aid Another actions and get a good chance to hit. Crane negates all of these. Also, since Crane is responsible for +4 AC, it's possible those enemies would have hit on a 16 before Crane.
Disgusting nerf. If balance is a concern then 9th level spells should be banned outright instead of contorting existing rules surrounding a single Style in order to make it effectively worthless.
I will say thank god someone did something to reign in those Monks. Who hasn't had a campaign ruined by their overpowered abilities? Now if someone would just do something about that game-breaking Sneak Attack...
My impression has always been that high-level (post 15th) was considered a lost cause. Considering how little material they make for it...
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Now if someone would just do something about that game-breaking Sneak Attack...
Let's us nerf them down to d3's and make the ability to get it even more situational. That outta balance out the rogue.
...if they did this to crane wing, just imagine what might happen in the near future to sap adept/master.
Without Crane, those crappy swarms of monsters who traditionally need a 20 to hit either have enough attacks that they can fish the 20 (while Power Attacking, since why not if you need a 20 anyway?) or if not could make worthwhile Aid Another actions and get a good chance to hit. Crane negates all of these. Also, since Crane is responsible for +4 AC, it's possible those enemies would have hit on a 16 before Crane.
"This feat makes you really good against enemies that only hit you on a natural 20" doesn't seem to be a good argument for nerfing it. Especially since multiple enemies are exactly the kind of thing that easily counters CW.
Also: Ranged attacks, spells, most combat maneuvers, touch attacks, area effects.
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Actually since touch attacks, spells delivered by touch and combat maneuvers take an attack roll, if delivered in melee they could be deflected.
Attack rolls? Yes. Weapons? No.
And Crane Wing only affects melee weapon attacks.
Without Crane, those crappy swarms of monsters who traditionally need a 20 to hit either have enough attacks that they can fish the 20 (while Power Attacking, since why not if you need a 20 anyway?) or if not could make worthwhile Aid Another actions and get a good chance to hit. Crane negates all of these. Also, since Crane is responsible for +4 AC, it's possible those enemies would have hit on a 16 before Crane."This feat makes you really good against enemies that only hit you on a natural 20" doesn't seem to be a good argument for nerfing it. Especially since multiple enemies are exactly the kind of thing that easily counters CW.
No, in fact multiple enemies are the weakest against Crane Wing if built well (AKA, also buying typical AC boosts as possible) because they rely on large numbers of rolls to get in the occasional blow at low odds, so getting a +4 AC from Crane further lowers those odds and Wing nearly negates them.
Let's take my fighter as an example. He often encountered large mobs of ghouls. With a fairly standard fighter kit, the flanking ghouls needed a 15 to hit him. Make that 19 with Crane. I probably could have made that a 20 if I wanted, but I didn't have it for most of the time. Now deflect one attack per round. Wham--I go from 4 ghouls having an expected number of hits against me of 5 hits per round (ouch!) to having an expected 1/5 of a hit per round (whew!).
Actually since touch attacks, spells delivered by touch and combat maneuvers take an attack roll, if delivered in melee they could be deflected.Attack rolls? Yes. Weapons? No.
And Crane Wing only affects melee weapon attacks.
It's been FAQed to work on shocking grasp and incorporeal touch attacks. It only works on a very few combat maneuvers though, the same ones that would add your Amulet of Mighty Fist bonus to CMB if you have one (for those curious, that's Trip, Sunder, and Disarm). There's a few exceptions where you can use a weapon on another maneuver and thus have it deflected by old Wing.
Notice how Crane Wing does not give you +4 AC, it simply reduces the attack penalty for fighting defensively.
Crane Riposte no longer functions.
Not exactly. It's just that only the first sentence applies any more. So it's worth a +1 to hit while fighting defensively, which means that the final feat in a feat tree is less powerful than an earlier one (Crane Style specifically).
Without Crane, those crappy swarms of monsters who traditionally need a 20 to hit either have enough attacks that they can fish the 20 (while Power Attacking, since why not if you need a 20 anyway?) or if not could make worthwhile Aid Another actions and get a good chance to hit. Crane negates all of these. Also, since Crane is responsible for +4 AC, it's possible those enemies would have hit on a 16 before Crane."This feat makes you really good against enemies that only hit you on a natural 20" doesn't seem to be a good argument for nerfing it. Especially since multiple enemies are exactly the kind of thing that easily counters CW.No, in fact multiple enemies are the weakest against Crane Wing if built well (AKA, also buying typical AC boosts as possible) because they rely on large numbers of rolls to get in the occasional blow at low odds, so getting a +4 AC from Crane further lowers those odds and Wing nearly negates them.
Aren't you getting that AC bonus from Fighting Defensively? Which wasn't nerfed?
So your AC is still the same, its just the difference between getting butchered by a bunch of mooks and not is gone.
You're still only getting hit on a 20.
Crane Wing just had it's deflect removed essentially. Is that what you wanted?
Was there any justification given for the change?
Was there any justification given for the change?
Its rare you get one. Even some of the FAQs lack much backing.