Agile cost you a +1 enhancement(monks need all the attack they can get) and unfortunately take a while to kick on.Hmm, I've seen Snake Style work pretty well for a Dex Monk, particularly if your GM allows Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. Might be a worthwhile alternative to Crane, at least to look into.Does anyone forsee crane wing being used at all anymore,I was going to use it to try and make the unarmed DEX-monk I've always wanted work, but I'm not so sure now. I hate feeling forced into the STR>DEX monk paradigm, but the change to Crane Wing does kick one of the strongest supporting options out from under the DEX-monk.
Mostly just frustrated.
It's actually super-quick for an Amulet of Mighty Fists compared to a normal weapon (half price). And it doesn't slow you at all if you're getting a greater magic fang. If you have a Druid in your group, you can even buy them a Pearl 3 for 9k and they can just give you a GMF to go with the ones for themself/their pet without using any additional slots. If you have an alch in the group with alchemical allocation and a high CL potion, even better!
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That's the thing about these ridiculous nerfs - the only people happy, the only people celebrating, the only people even approving of this change are the people who have never had any intention of actually using these feats. They're people who looked across the table, didn't like that someone was having fun with their build and campaigned against it in some misanthropic version of schudenfreud. Balance at all costs has ever been a fool's errand, but can somebody please explain to me exactly what 'problem' this crushing nerd fixes?
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Well, this ruins my character, thanks a lot, Paizo. The time I spent building and leveling the character was completely wasted.
Hmm, I've seen Snake Style work pretty well for a Dex Monk, particularly if your GM allows Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. Might be a worthwhile alternative to Crane, at least to look into.Does anyone forsee crane wing being used at all anymore,I was going to use it to try and make the unarmed DEX-monk I've always wanted work, but I'm not so sure now. I hate feeling forced into the STR>DEX monk paradigm, but the change to Crane Wing does kick one of the strongest supporting options out from under the DEX-monk.
Mostly just frustrated.
Snake Style (the entire chain) IS pretty good. And since Crane has been nerfed, I expect to see it showing up more and more in builds.
MA
Well, this ruins my character, thanks a lot, Paizo. The time I spent building and leveling the character was completely wasted.
Depends on how you see things. Your time building it was, your time playing it could've been fun(or not...), what you were trying to reach if you had a goal may be totally out of it now, and rebuilding things can suck.
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Hmm, I've seen Snake Style work pretty well for a Dex Monk, particularly if your GM allows Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. Might be a worthwhile alternative to Crane, at least to look into.Does anyone forsee crane wing being used at all anymore,I was going to use it to try and make the unarmed DEX-monk I've always wanted work, but I'm not so sure now. I hate feeling forced into the STR>DEX monk paradigm, but the change to Crane Wing does kick one of the strongest supporting options out from under the DEX-monk.
Mostly just frustrated.
Snake Style (the entire chain) IS pretty good. And since Crane has been nerfed, I expect to see it showing up more and more in builds.
MA
Until, by inevitable default, it becomes TOO popular and gets a similar hatchet job.
Unfortunately Agile has a local perception as being overpowered. I disagree, but that's the stream I'm swimming against.Hmm, I've seen Snake Style work pretty well for a Dex Monk, particularly if your GM allows Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. Might be a worthwhile alternative to Crane, at least to look into.Does anyone forsee crane wing being used at all anymore,I was going to use it to try and make the unarmed DEX-monk I've always wanted work, but I'm not so sure now. I hate feeling forced into the STR>DEX monk paradigm, but the change to Crane Wing does kick one of the strongest supporting options out from under the DEX-monk.
Mostly just frustrated.
While it is definitely hugely more powerful than not allowing it for anyone who would pick it, and it can make certain builds dominate others by pairing high defenses with high damage all in one stat, it does also allow certain otherwise-inaccessible builds to flourish, so it's a trade-off. It's certainly true that Dex-first melee character of any stripe is not going to be able to keep even close to pace offensively without it, so even with Old Crane you would have wound up with a character that fell under my Type 1 of characters who don't break Old Crane (ones with very low offense).
That's the thing about these ridiculous nerfs - the only people happy, the only people celebrating, the only people even approving of this change are the people who have never had any intention of actually using these feats. They're people who looked across the table, didn't like that someone was having fun with their build and campaigned against it in some misanthropic version of schudenfreud. Balance at all costs has ever been a fool's errand, but can somebody please explain to me exactly what 'problem' this crushing nerd fixes?
I'm pretty happy, and I played a Crane/Snake guy from level 1 to 7 in PFS (and was signed up to play him in Bonekeep 2 next month, which I'll have to reconsider) as well as having an Aldori Duelist cohort with Crane in a home-game Kingmaker from cohort level 5 to 12 (one time, she got into a fight with a mythic enemy where one attack provoked a chain of I think 20 AoOs between the two!). The guy I know with a Crane Soundstriker is actually even more OK than I am with the exact choices of the errata (I want to change it a little bit to make Riposte work again and give a minor buff).
Does anyone forsee crane wing being used at all anymore,I was going to use it to try and make the unarmed DEX-monk I've always wanted work, but I'm not so sure now. I hate feeling forced into the STR>DEX monk paradigm, but the change to Crane Wing does kick one of the strongest supporting options out from under the DEX-monk.
Mostly just frustrated.
An unarmed dex monk can work if you don't mind starting at high enough level to acquire an amulet with the agile enchantment. Until that time, It's a bit of a struggle, houserules aside of course.
That's the thing about these ridiculous nerfs - the only people happy, the only people celebrating, the only people even approving of this change are the people who have never had any intention of actually using these feats. They're people who looked across the table, didn't like that someone was having fun with their build and campaigned against it in some misanthropic version of schudenfreud. Balance at all costs has ever been a fool's errand, but can somebody please explain to me exactly what 'problem' this crushing nerd fixes?I'm pretty happy, and I played a Crane/Snake guy from level 1 to 7 in PFS (and was signed up to play him in Bonekeep 2 next month, which I'll have to reconsider) as well as having an Aldori Duelist cohort with Crane in a home-game Kingmaker from cohort level 5 to 12 (one time, she got into a fight with a mythic enemy where one attack provoked a chain of I think 20 AoOs between the two!). The guy I know with a Crane Soundstriker is actually even more OK than I am with the exact choices of the errata (I want to change it a little bit to make Riposte work again and give a minor buff).
So you were hoping that a character you built would be made less effective?
Let's call you the minority, then.
That's the thing about these ridiculous nerfs - the only people happy, the only people celebrating, the only people even approving of this change are the people who have never had any intention of actually using these feats. They're people who looked across the table, didn't like that someone was having fun with their build and campaigned against it in some misanthropic version of schudenfreud. Balance at all costs has ever been a fool's errand, but can somebody please explain to me exactly what 'problem' this crushing nerd fixes?I'm pretty happy, and I played a Crane/Snake guy from level 1 to 7 in PFS (and was signed up to play him in Bonekeep 2 next month, which I'll have to reconsider) as well as having an Aldori Duelist cohort with Crane in a home-game Kingmaker from cohort level 5 to 12 (one time, she got into a fight with a mythic enemy where one attack provoked a chain of I think 20 AoOs between the two!). The guy I know with a Crane Soundstriker is actually even more OK than I am with the exact choices of the errata (I want to change it a little bit to make Riposte work again and give a minor buff).So you were hoping that a character you built would be made less effective?
Let's call you the minority, then.
I built the PFS character because Crane seemed pretty strong, and I wanted to see it in action. I discovered it was even stronger than I thought, and I posted my results. The character was so grossly powerful that eventually I only ever played him when I could play up (like a level 1 in a scenario for level 4-5 characters), when I was babysitting a table that was barely forced to play up in a tough scenario, or when it was a known super-hard scenario (Bonekeep 1). For the cohort, the GM and I both wanted to get more playtest while also agreeing that Crane fit perfectly for Aldori duelists out of everywhere in Golarion, and I had wanted an Aldori duelist for a cohort since the beginning of Kingmaker (since no other PCs made one and they are a neat in-world tie-in).
Well, this ruins my character, thanks a lot, Paizo. The time I spent building and leveling the character was completely wasted.Depends on how you see things. Your time building it was, your time playing it could've been fun(or not...), what you were trying to reach if you had a goal may be totally out of it now, and rebuilding things can suck.
I mean I just got to a high enough level to take Crane Wing after months of play, only having one session of getting to use the feat, and building the Crane line was the only reason I was going with this character in the first place.
I have no interest in continuing to play this nerfed character now, and would have had more fun with another build up to this point.
It's been a complete waste of my time.
Pre Errata Crane Wing was probably too much, but I don't think it would have taken a lot to fix it. Simply making it so you had to choose which attack to deflect before the attack roll would have been enough. Still, I'm guessing a common house-rule we'll see is changing Crane Riposte to read:
"You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an attack or to gain a Bonus to AC against an attack, if that attack misses, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack misses or is deflected."
I'm glad I haven't started playing the new aldori swordlord pfs character I planned out after my urban barbarian swordlord was killed. The entire crane style chain used to work very well for such a character. Guess I should have known enough to just stick with 18+ strength goons with greatswords for my martial character plans. This nerf removes one of the few ways to make a light armoured high dex fighter viable.
Gave it some thought and quite disappointed with the change. Not disagreeing the original was too powerful, but this is a bit overkill I think.
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I'm glad I haven't started playing the new aldori swordlord pfs character I planned out after my urban barbarian swordlord was killed. The entire crane style chain used to work very well for such a character. Guess I should have known enough to just stick with 18+ strength goons with greatswords for my martial character plans. This nerf removes one of the few ways to make a light armoured high dex fighter viable.
When you play the game of Pathfinder, you either cast or you suck. There is no middle ground.
Let's hope the Pathfinder Society Field Guide never gets reprinted. A useful fighter archetype? Inconceivable!
At 3rd level, a lore warden chooses a combat maneuver. He gains a +1 bonus on all CMB checks made to use that combat maneuver and to his CMD against that combat maneuver. Every four levels thereafter, he chooses an additional, different type of combat maneuver and extends this +1 bonus to maneuvers of that type.
This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
I am going to keep playing the way it is in my book. If they want people to uses the new rule first make it work, next start handing out replacement books. The changing of the rules in the books is the reason I quit 4e. It got to the point you had so many changes you could make a book out of the changes. I have a player who has crane wing and it is not that hard to get around it. Just send an enemy has a lot of attacks at them. Dragons, Tigers, and poncing Barbarians all do a good job.
I bought a new CRB recently after a couple years of use out of the last one due to errata updates. If it becomes a "thing," then, yeah, I'll just stick to the rules I've already purchased.
3, 2, ...?
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For srs. I'm not happy about where Crane Wing wound up either, but flipping out does nothing but entrench polarized tribees. It's a big part of why we can't have a conversation about Vow of Poverty and alternatives to it without them crashing and burning, because someone from either tribe is going to have to take that first shot and it all goes to hell and winds up closed. Again.
Lead Designer
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((Resposted from the other Crane Wing thread... do we really need two of these))
Hey there everyone,
I can understand why some folks are upset with this change. It was a very good feat. The sheer amount of passion in this thread demonstrates that fact.
Part of our process of updating a book involves talking to various departments to see if there is anything that is causing them problems or needs a second look. In this particular case, Crane Wing was the #1 problem child on the list from the PFS folks. Without much work you could build a character with an incredibly high AC that could still make attacks, and if a foe would happen to get lucky and score a hit, deflect it. This build, which was not really all that difficult to setup, was all made possible by Crane Wing.
So...
We took a look and changed it to something a little more balanced. You can still play that game, you just can't take your full boat of attacks at the same time. You may not agree with the decision. That's fine. We knew this would ruffle some feathers (crane feathers even), but it was a call we had to make. We could not just put this in the bin of "let PFS ban it". That solution is generally reserved for rules that by there very concept, have trouble being implemented in PFS, or would require significant GM oversight to make viable.
So, there you have it. Now on to a couple of other issue.
1. The tone in this thread is entirely inappropriate. I have not seen so many pulled posts in one thread in a long time. You can choose to disagree with the decision, but insulting the staff, your fellow posters, and trolling is just not allowed folks. If it continues, this thread will be closed and some folks will be getting timeouts. No one deserves the sort of vitriol I have seen here over a feat.
2. The Crane Riposte feat still works just fine. It ALLOWS you to take an AoO in that specific circumstance (even though you normally could not). It could perhaps use a callout specifically to that effect, but the wording is pretty plain.
3. Lets not drag the martial vs caster canard into this. Start another thread if you feel the need to continue that topic.
That is all for now folks.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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((Resposted from the other Crane Wing thread... do we really need two of these))
This thread was originally on a different forum and moved here. That's why there's two on the same forum.
Without much work you could build a character with an incredibly high AC that could still make attacks, and if a foe would happen to get lucky and score a hit, deflect it. This build, which was not really all that difficult to setup, was all made possible by Crane Wing.
Did you compare the math to mirror image?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Crane Wing nerf: do not want, please change it back.
The feat chain was just fine as it was. You saw a lot of traffic complaining about it. You also see a lot of traffic complaining about gunslingers, yet you have (rightfully) not nerfed them.
Powerful =/= overpowered.
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Without much work you could build a character with an incredibly high AC that could still make attacks, and if a foe would happen to get lucky and score a hit, deflect it. This build, which was not really all that difficult to setup, was all made possible by Crane Wing.Did you compare the math to mirror image?
No specifically, but mirror image is a known quantity for us. It is range personal, easily foiled by some relatively common spells, brought down on a miss, and generally limited to a pair of character classes that are not exactly known for rushing into combat.
Lets stay on topic.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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I myself can't see taking this style tree anymore, as +4 AC against only a single attack once a round for the cost of having one hand free (which for most people is a rather large cost) isn't worth a feat to me. And full defense seems like a poor option unless you're at a choke point or buying time for others. If there's more than one person around (as there would be in a party, mostly likely also a caster), I'd see no reason to even attack someone in a full defensive position, since they're no longer a threat. I mean it can't be that hard to notice someone is going all out defending themselves, when as an AC tank they should be protecting...someone...anyone, really.
I don't think this feat deserved to be debuffed as much as it was, or at all, and I'll be telling my players that we're using the unerrata'd version, but it is your call, and I'll respect it for PFS by no longer including it in builds.
My main beef is the effect it had on Crane Riposte. A defensive class is already lacking offense. Crane Style provided a slight boost to defensive monks and single weapon fighters with one additional attack after the deflection. This change takes that away. I think ruining the third feat in a feat chain is an extremely poor design choice for any series of feats.
It is obvious that the game designers did not care how this affected Crane Riposte. They were focused on taking away the automatic deflection and made a clumsy addition as a token attempt to keep Crane Riposte useful.
Honestly, this change was the first time I decided to take a look at D&D Next. I had ignored the new D&D. This change to Crane Wing without properly making it work with Crane Riposte was such a slap in the face as a Paizo customer that it opened the door to a change of games for me.
It's not the change that bothers me. I think Crane Wing was too good for the level you can obtain it at. I don't disagree with the change. It was the way it was changed behind everyone's back out of the blue without any concern for Crane Riposte that made me feel like the Paizo game designers think of their customers as nothing more than people who have no choice but to accept every change they make because they're smarter than all of us.
I don't like that attitude from any company.
No specifically, but mirror image is a known quantity for us. It is range personal, easily foiled by some relatively common spells, brought down on a miss, and generally limited to a pair of character classes that are not exactly known for rushing into combat.Lets stay on topic.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
[Friendly teasing] Ninjas and Maguses aren't meant to go into combat?[/friendly teasing]
Anyways I'd argue that it is on topic since as a second level spell it becomes available in the same time/level frame, has far fewer pre-requisites and has very good potential to eliminate far more damage from both ranged and melee attacks without forcing you to fight defensively. As a baseline, the new crane wing (heck even the old one) seems to pale in comparison.
That said, did you consider allowing the +4 AC against all melee attacks in a round?
Also does this suggest that snake fang will be similarily adjusted down the road (given that the new crane wing would stack with mobility and snake fang even for at least one attack a round.)
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Without much work you could build a character with an incredibly high AC that could still make attacks, and if a foe would happen to get lucky and score a hit, deflect it. This build, which was not really all that difficult to setup, was all made possible by Crane Wing.Did you compare the math to mirror image?
No specifically, but mirror image is a known quantity for us. It is range personal, easily foiled by some relatively common spells, brought down on a miss, and generally limited to a pair of character classes that are not exactly known for rushing into combat.
Lets stay on topic.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I'd point out that a lot of the hate is due to the degree to which it was changed. Even people who were happy to see it changed, thought the degree to which it was powered down was way to drastic.
I'd argue that it was not made more balanced, it was made less balanced. It is just instead of it tipping a bit too far ahead one way, it is now a garbage feat. A more careful dealing with it that respected balance would have not have created near the outrage.
Stuff.Well said Jason. As a PFSer that's had many a games harmed by this feat chain, you and the rest of the Paizo staff have my thanks.
Are you entirely pleased with this errata?
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James...when someone brings up a point in a discussion you don't particularly want to deal with (martial vs caster) do you really think it fair to brush it off with "let's stay on topic"? There seems to be more than a few of your customers who think it is on topic.
Also, the rules of pathfinder are now being subject to the limits of pfs? Sorry but that is particularly lame in my opinion. Society is an add on, something else, not part of the core game. Least, that's the impression I got. If that's not the case can we have an organized petition to have society play disbanded? Because I gotta be honest, I want no part of that business.
You guys have a really nice product, and have a history of listening to your fans. But there's some issues here and it would be greatly appreciated if they were addressed instead of blown off.
I am. The gunslinger clarification was just icing on the cake too btw, even if no one noticed.
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Honestly, this change was the first time I decided to take a look at D&D Next. I had ignored the new D&D. This change to Crane Wing without properly making it work with Crane Riposte was such a slap in the face as a Paizo customer that it opened the door to a change of games for me.It's not the change that bothers me. I think Crane Wing was too good for the level you can obtain it at. I don't disagree with the change. It was the way it was changed behind everyone's back out of the blue without any concern for Crane Riposte that made me feel like the Paizo game designers think of their customers as nothing more than people who have no choice but to accept every change they make because they're smarter than all of us.
I don't like that attitude from any company.
I am not sure where this is coming from. We have never vetted all of our rules alterations with the community, nor are we doing things "out of the blue". This is the way we work with the game. If we slowed down to consult with the community about every single alteration, our productivity would slow down to a stand-still. I am sorry you don't like the way this was handled, but we are really just trying to make the game the best it can be. You are not required to agree with us, and you can feel free to play however you like in your home game.
We make these changes because it is our job to do so, not out of some sense of self-righteousness or arrogance. Our job is to make a fun and balanced game. It might not be right for everyone, but we endeavor to do the best we can. I hope you understand that.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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James...when someone brings up a point in a discussion you don't particularly want to deal with (martial vs caster) do you really think it fair to brush it off with "let's stay on topic"? There seems to be more than a few of your customers who think it is on topic.
Also, the rules of pathfinder are now being subject to the limits of pfs? Sorry but that is particularly lame in my opinion. Society is an add on, something else, not part of the core game. Least, that's the impression I got. If that's not the case can we have an organized petition to have society play disbanded? Because I gotta be honest, I want no part of that business.
You guys have a really nice product, and have a history of listening to your fans. But there's some issues here and it would be greatly appreciated if they were addressed instead of blown off.
I am not brushing off the martial vs caster discussion. Its just that we have had it many times with the posters on this board, and dragging it into another topic is bound to be unproductive.
The rules of the game are not subject to the limits of PFS, as I have stated before. PFS is a valuable tool for us, giving us feedback on how the rules are working in a structured and even environment. We don't take our rules cues from them, but we do listen when a particular rule is causing a problem. Its generally a good indicator of an underlying issue that needs to be addressed. In this way, it is the same when the AP team comes to us with a rule that is giving them problems, or when the web team notices an issue with wording. The final say and decision lies with me and my team, but we take feedback from a wide variety of sources, including these boards.
((And its is Jason, not James...))
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer