Druids Log: Animal companions


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Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

*wonders if Part VI will be about Animal Archetypes*

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

Drake Brimstone wrote:
Drat, while at first glance Bridle of Tricks and War Saddle look like good choices for my Giant Wasp, it is neither an Animal nor a Magical Beast. Anyone know of a way a Small sized race can make their Animal Companion a Magical Beast? (Unfortunately no small sized Aasimars.)

Nothing I can think of, and I'm trying hard because if the wasp isn't combat trained riding it in combat becomes VERY problematic.

Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.

The trick above for upping the critters intelligence to 1, getting the extra slot feat and putting the headband on it may be the best way to go.
You could take Vermin hearted and cast wartrain mount on it.

You can also get a dire bat companioninstead. If you want to keep it medium so it fits in the dungeon (and your lap), take the alternate option to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2 instead of the 7th level advancement.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

Hmmm.. I think I'm doing the fashion show next, then race synergies, buffs, then archetypes.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

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elgabalawi wrote:

Also, tell me more about this gravy if you don't mind. Maybe I'm just not imaginative enough (or haven't seen the full list in the animal companion or what not), but beyond the two attacks, and down (which still leaves me with 2 at lvl four - where I'll be starting with this character), I'm having a hard time imagining what would be worth getting excited about.

This had been super helpful by the way.

Trick Gravy

Flank: Without this trick the snake won't go out of its way to flank. With it he'll move around behind the opponent ant try to flank. Not only is this a nice +2 to hit, but it also keeps the snake out of charge lanes, sets up +2's for your other melee, and in general keeps your melee happy to have the snake fighting beside them rather than complaining about him or her taking up valuable real estate

Manuever Disarm: The evil necromancer is holding onto the Swirly sphere of evil icky necromancy 20 feet above you. Have the snake climb up and get it. Or the bad guy is using a 2 handed sword of flamey fiery burniness.. Snag it and see how tough he is with his dagger.

Seek: send the critter into the room to look for invisible people with scent. He takes a move action, automatically smells something, moves towards it. When he's within 5 feet of it, he knows which square its in.

Menace: Cuddles puts his nose RIGHT in the captured opponents face and rattles his tail menacingly whenever he tries to move.

Sneak: Whats worse than a 20 foot python charging at you accross the field of battle? A 20 foot python dropping on you from the shadows.

Manuever: Trip. Ok, the thing has DR 10 and the amulet of mighty fists to go through it would cost a mint. Knock it over and give your melee a +4 to hit it and free AoOs when it tries to get up. (then grapple it for even more penalties)

For space/reach: Snakes appear to be the very definition of "long" on the space/reach chart. I can't find anything definitive but I don't think they get extra reach at large.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The Emperor Cobra has reach. I don't see why other large-sized snakes wouldn't.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

Nefreet wrote:
The Emperor Cobra has reach. I don't see why other large-sized snakes wouldn't.

I'd buy that.


Thanks for the continued info and opinions. I'd obviously need to get maneuver grapple as well, yes? Wasn't sure if you left that off for a reason (other than that you thought it was too obvious to mention).

The Exchange 1/5

Beastmaster rangers will benefit from this thread as well. Keep in mind you can keep the Roc medium at 4th level and fly around on it if you are small.

Grand Lodge 1/5

I may take the Bat until 4th level when I can switch to a wasp up it's int, give it feats to use magic items and give it a headband of Vast intellect for the 3 total int. (Yes wasps get a Headband Slot.)

Still debating about what to do at level 7 as a Wasps strength is only 10 to start with which would barely carry a Saddle with a Halfling on it, no gear. I may just spend the second feat to unlock the Shoulder Slot and give it Muleback Cords. Alternately I could cast Ant Haul and by that level it's lasting 4h a casting.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

Drake Brimstone wrote:

I may take the Bat until 4th level when I can switch to a wasp up it's int, give it feats to use magic items and give it a headband of Vast intellect for the 3 total int. (Yes wasps get a Headband Slot.)

Still debating about what to do at level 7 as a Wasps strength is only 10 to start with which would barely carry a Saddle with a Halfling on it, no gear. I may just spend the second feat to unlock the Shoulder Slot and give it Muleback Cords. Alternately I could cast Ant Haul and by that level it's lasting 4h a casting.

Remember its a quadrap.. well, hexaped, so it uses the quadrupeds increased carrying capacity. You'll have +1 strength from being an animal companion, giving it a light carrying capacity of (11---chart=38 X1.5=) 57 lbs, and all of your gear is half weight because you're small. Even a male halfling can come it at 32 lbs, leaving 25 lbs to play with. If you can cast ant haul yourself, a 1,000 gp pearl of power can let you cast it all day (its two hours per level) if you need to and let your busy little bee bring home the entire easter island head if thats what Dreng wants in his living room.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

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Part VI: Hocks, withers, fetlocks, toes

Given the almost infinite plethora of magical accoutrement out there its no surprise that a system as open as pathfinder society needs to be worried about magical items that were primarily designed with humanoid adventurers in mind being overpowered when wielded by our multi armed fuzzy friends. How animals wear and use magical items is thus one of the areas where the standard and PFS rules diverge the most.

  • Animals are limited to the more restrictive of either neck+barding or the chart in the Animal Archive
  • Animal items need to be constant use or benefit: they cannot activate magical items.
  • Unlike the base rules, the extra slot feat does not let an animal companion take slots outside of its normal body type. Instead that feat allows an animal take the slots other than neck and armor that they would normally be able to wear outside of PFS play. They can take the feat multiple times to open up more legal slots. Remember that in pathfinder "head" and "headband" are separate and distinct slots.
  • Given this question on saddles, I believe that in order to bypass this requirement an item has to be made for a specific animal, not just animals in general. So far that restriction is, as far as I know,bypassed only by horseshoes.
  • Something new from the Animal archive was the differentiation of the belt and saddle slots into effectively different slots. If a body type allows belt(saddle) it can't take regular belts and vice versa, even with the extra feat slot. They can still wear a regular saddle (probably an exotic one) they just can't activate magical ones.

So for PFS

Avian:
Axe beak, dimorphodon, dinosaur (pteranodon), dire bat, eagle, giant vulture, hawk, owl, quetzalcoatlus, roc
Starts with Neck/Armor.
Can take extra slot: belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring,wrist
Biped (Claws/Paws):
Dinosaur (allosaurusB2, deinonychus, iguanodon,pachycephalosaurus, parasaurolophus, spinosaurus,
tyrannosaurusB1, velociraptor), kangaroo
Starts with:Armor & Neck
Can take extra slot: belt, chest, eyes,headband, ring, shoulders, wrist
Biped (Hands):
Ape, baboon
Starts with: Armor,Neck.
Can take extra slot: Anything.
Piscine. FISHY!:
Tylosaurus, dolphin, manta ray, orca, shark,
stingray, walrus
Starts With: None.
Can take Extra slot:Belt, chest (saddle), eyes
Quadruped (claws&paws):
Badger, bear, cheetah, dire ratB1, dog, giant weasel, goblin dog, hyena, leopard, lion, panda, thylacine, tiger, wolf, wolverine
Starts with: Neck and Armor.
Can Take extra slot: belt (saddle),chest, eyes, headband, shoulders, wrist
Quadruped/Hexapod (feet):
Camel, dinosaur (triceratops), elephant, giant ant,giant mantisUM, giant wasp, hippopotamus, mammoth,mastodon, megafauna (arsinoitherium, baluchitherium,
megatherium),rhinoceros
Start with Armor & Neck.
Can take extra slot belt (saddle),chest, eyes, headband, shoulders, wrist
Quadruped (Hooves):
Antelope, aurochs, bison, boar, buffalo, elk, horse,llama, megafauna (megaloceros), moose, pony, ram
Starts with Neck & Armor. Horses ONLY start with horse shoes. Can take extra slot Armor, belt(saddle), chest,eyes, head, headband,shoulders, wrist
Quadruped (Squat Body):
elasmosaurus, giant frog, giant snapping turtle, archelon, glyptodon
Starts with: Neck and Armor. Can get Extra slot headband, shoulders, wrist
Saurian:
Alligator, crocodile, dinosaur (ankylosaurus, brachiosaurus,dimetrodon, stegosaurus), giant chameleon, giant
gecko, megafauna (megalania), monitor lizardB1]
Starts with Armor and neck. Can take Extra Slot: belt (saddle), chest,eyes, headband
Serpentine:
Constrictor snake, electric eel, gar, giant leech, giant moray eel, giant slug, megafauna (basilosaurus)
Starts with: None.
Can take extra slot Belt, eyes, headband
Verminous:
Giant beetle, giant centipedeUM, giant crabUM, giant scorpion, giant spider, octopus, squid
Starts with: none.
Can take extra slots Belt, Eyes.

Click the spoiler for a list of what animal companions fall under that category.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Well done, inspiring me to try a druid!

Silver Crusade 2/5 *

Don't go to the Dark Side. :)

Even though I kinda hate animal companions, I've learned a lot from this thread. I still think they are rather OP, though.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

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Part VII: Feral fashion.

One of the most common and most important pieces of equipment your animal companion can have is a set of armor. Few companions are very effective if they're not going toe to toe with the bad guys, and as Sage Murphy is fond of pointing out, if the bad guy is in biting range of the companion then the companion is in biting range of the bad guy.

Not only do most companions come with this slot, but many armors can be worn without proficiency with little to no penalty. If you are not proficient with armor you take the Armor Check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dex- and Str-based ability and skill checks.

Druids local 704 Highly frowns on sending your companions into combat without regard to their safety tap tap taps pointy stick

Leather Armor Barding: Cheap Toile, but better than nothing for the adventurer on a budget. Costs a mere 20 gp for medium companions for 40 GP for large ones.

Masterwork Studded leather: Prêt-à-porter armor you should invest in after your first or second adventure. In pathfinder society there is no way to resize the armor, so if your companion is going to have a growth spurt at 4th or 7th level you shouldn't spend too much money upgrading this, since you have to sell it back for half.

Darkleaf cloth studded leather: More expensive than regular studded leather, but if your're worried about encumbering your mount it may be worth it.

Mithral Chain Shirt barding: No armor check penalty, light weight and a hefty +4 armor bonus.

Mithral Kikko Armor: Haute couture for the animal companion. The extra 3,000 for medium mithral armor is a serious initial investment for +1 over the Mithral chain shirt, can pay off in the long run as it becomes more and more expensive to add +1 to the armor through magic.

Mithral Agile Breast plate + Comfort enchantment. Outrageously expensive, and very hard to upgrade into without the animal suffering the -1 penalty for a little bit, and for most of your PFS career will probably be worse than adding an additional +1 enhancement.

Heavier armors: If your animal companion doesn't so much fight on their own as act as a method to get you into the fight you can always put them in heavier armors to protect them while they take you into the fray and deal with the attack and skill penalties.

Remember that while you can add any number of +1s, + equivalents, and flat values to the armor you cannot get specific magical armors such as rhino hide or celestial armor as barding.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Flutter wrote:
Drake Brimstone wrote:

I may take the Bat until 4th level when I can switch to a wasp up it's int, give it feats to use magic items and give it a headband of Vast intellect for the 3 total int. (Yes wasps get a Headband Slot.)

Still debating about what to do at level 7 as a Wasps strength is only 10 to start with which would barely carry a Saddle with a Halfling on it, no gear. I may just spend the second feat to unlock the Shoulder Slot and give it Muleback Cords. Alternately I could cast Ant Haul and by that level it's lasting 4h a casting.

Remember its a quadrap.. well, hexaped, so it uses the quadrupeds increased carrying capacity. You'll have +1 strength from being an animal companion, giving it a light carrying capacity of (11---chart=38 X1.5=) 57 lbs, and all of your gear is half weight because you're small. Even a male halfling can come it at 32 lbs, leaving 25 lbs to play with. If you can cast ant haul yourself, a 1,000 gp pearl of power can let you cast it all day (its two hours per level) if you need to and let your busy little bee bring home the entire easter island head if thats what Dreng wants in his living room.

I have temporarily selected the Roc, and I did notice I was wrong on the duration of Ant Haul, so at 4th level it will be lasting 8h a casting. I'm a Sorcerer (Sylvan Bloodline) so I selected it as one of my spells known. The Roc has the Racer archetype so I actually move faster on it even on the ground then my walking as a Halfling.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Beware the alchemist kitsune/coyote with rich parents coming after your bird...

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

Good news for our fishy friends.

They have the belt(saddle), chest and eyes slots available with extra trait.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

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Part VIII: Accessorizing

Neck: The most common and probably the most important slot after armor

If your companion is primarily for getting you into the fight, invest a little in an amulet of natural armor. Note that this is an enhancement bonus to natural armor, so it will stack with the creature's existing natural armor but not other enhancement bonuses like barkskin.

If your friend likes to bite things then they need an amulet of mighty fists. These come in too many enhancements to list all of them, but a few popular ones include

  • Strait +s. Good for accuracy, Damage and will help your companion overcome damage reducation. Its also less dice to roll and speeds things up more than other options.
  • Elemental damage (shocking flaming etc). Lots of damage, and amazingly good if your bundle of death has lots of attacks. One thing to note is you may hit a little variation on whether animals can use these or not. On one hand, the properties need to be activated. On the other hand, they stay activated once they're turned on.
  • Agile: Lets you add dexterity damage to your attacks instead of strength. Good for companions remaining medium or small, stealth builds, and adorable killer rabbits.
  • Bane: Since you don't need a +1 before applying an enhancement to the AoMF you can carry a few of these for your more common enemies.
  • Furryborn: Absolutely insane on a creature with multiple attacks but you have to be very careful not to slow the game down recalculating.
  • Heartseeker: Invisibility ranks right behind swarms in things PFS throws at you. If your animal has scent it knows what square to attack.
  • Limning: Like heartseeker, but also lights him up for the rest of the group.
  • Merciful: The society is trying to cut down on its murderhobo reputation. With this enchant your can do your part, even if your companion is more than a little annoyed at all the fireballs he took.

Note that if you're shopping out of an old book, the prices may be higher. The prices were errata'd a while back in the Monkeying aroud blog.

One stupid druid trick, especially if your companion uses one big bite, is to use the amulet of mighty fists for special abilities and then use greater magic fang for the strait + to hit and damage. Remember that the spell magic fang won't bypass damage reductions other than magic though.

Belt. (requires a feat) As physical combatants its hard to go wrong with increases to ability scores. If you're on fluffy the IV you may want to consider increasing his constitution score before strength. Again, make sure your companion isn't limited to the belt (saddle) slot before he or she invests in a feat.

Headband (requires a feat): Wisdom adds to their will saves, Intelligence gets them more tricks.

Back (requires a feat): A cloak/blanket of resistance is cost effective and indispensable for avoiding spells, which have been the most common thing I've seen rain on an animal companions parade. Instead of iron will, open up the cloak and give them bonuses to all 3 saves.

Slotless

Stone of alliance Lets you go the extra mile to protect your animal companion, and know how they're doing if you get separated. Great for snakes.

Beast Bond Brand great for healing your pet at range, or buffing them in combat while you stand where you don't need concentration checks.

Ioun stones: If you have more cash than feat slots on your animal companion AND you've increased their intelligence upping their physical stats never hurts.

Dusty Rose-5k for 1 point of AC. At the higher levels it may be cheaper than enchanting armor.

Cracked Pale Green Prism- 4k for +1 competence bonus to attacks or saves. Buy one for each.

Dark Archive 4/5 *

What source says that a quadruped (wolf) can wear armor without taking the light armor proficiency feat? If I have an extra feat for Fluffy Jr, that would be awesome!

[edit] So there is language PFS FAQ stating that quadrupeds can use barding by default. If that is the case, why would the light armor proficiency feat even be listed as an available option for them?

Language is here

4/5

CigarPete wrote:

What source says that a quadruped (wolf) can wear armor without taking the light armor proficiency feat? If I have an extra feat for Fluffy Jr, that would be awesome!

[edit] So there is language PFS FAQ stating that quadrupeds can use barding by default. If that is the case, why would the light armor proficiency feat even be listed as an available option for them?

Language is here

Everyone can wear any type of armor without proficiency, assuming appropriate body types.

All the armor proficiency feats do is make it so armor check penalties do not apply to attack rolls (And possibly some sort of skill check that involves moving but isn't strength or dexterity based but I can't think of what that would be)

Dark Archive 4/5 *

Artoo wrote:
CigarPete wrote:

What source says that a quadruped (wolf) can wear armor without taking the light armor proficiency feat? If I have an extra feat for Fluffy Jr, that would be awesome!

[edit] So there is language PFS FAQ stating that quadrupeds can use barding by default. If that is the case, why would the light armor proficiency feat even be listed as an available option for them?

Language is here

Everyone can wear any type of armor without proficiency, assuming appropriate body types.

All the armor proficiency feats do is make it so armor check penalties do not apply to attack rolls (And possibly some sort of skill check that involves moving but isn't strength or dexterity based but I can't think of what that would be)

Gotcha, so if I put a Mithril Chain Shirt on him, there is no ACP and no feat would be required? Mage Armor would be cheaper, but not enchantable further...

4/5

CigarPete wrote:
Artoo wrote:
CigarPete wrote:

What source says that a quadruped (wolf) can wear armor without taking the light armor proficiency feat? If I have an extra feat for Fluffy Jr, that would be awesome!

[edit] So there is language PFS FAQ stating that quadrupeds can use barding by default. If that is the case, why would the light armor proficiency feat even be listed as an available option for them?

Language is here

Everyone can wear any type of armor without proficiency, assuming appropriate body types.

All the armor proficiency feats do is make it so armor check penalties do not apply to attack rolls (And possibly some sort of skill check that involves moving but isn't strength or dexterity based but I can't think of what that would be)

Gotcha, so if I put a Mithril Chain Shirt on him, there is no ACP and no feat would be required? Mage Armor would be cheaper, but not enchantable further...

Correct. Although on a related note I've got a question for this thread: when determining cost for barding, what exactly get multiplied (2x for medium creatures, 4x for large creature)?

- The base cost (This obviously is multiplied)
- Masterwork cost?
- Special materials cost?
- Magical enhancements?

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

It never made sense to me to charge extra for materials for barding but it does make sense to charge for size.

You definitely don't for enchantments.

4/5

Flutter wrote:

It never made sense to me to charge extra for materials for barding but it does make sense to charge for size.

You definitely don't for enchantments.

Not that I disagree with you about what makes sense, but are you aware of any rules text or FAQs that support what you're saying? All that the PRD has for clarification on those multipliers is:

"Relative to similar armor made for a Medium humanoid."

At least, that's all I can find.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

There's never been clarification, to my knowledge, about when you apply cost modifiers.

Mithral chain shirt armor for a Halfling has the same +1000gp modifier as mithral chain shirt barding would for a Horse.

Go with whatever formula costs you the least.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Here's an example I had to figure out regarding my pet Spinosaurus:

A Breastplate costs 200gp.
A MWK Breastplate costs 350gp.
A Dragonhide Breastplate costs 700gp.

So I figured...

Breastplate Barding for a large-sized, non-humanoid creature costs 800gp.
MWK Breastplate Barding for the same creature costs 950gp.
So you'd think that Dragonhide Breastplate Barding would cost 1900gp, and that's what I went with for my Animal Companion.

But there are other ways to calculate this cost (that I didn't discover until later):

You could multiply the 700gp cost of a Dragonhide Breastplate by 4, to get 2800gp (yikes!), or...

You could find the cost of a large-sized Breastplate (400gp), make it masterwork (550gp), make it Dragonhide (1100gp), and multiply that by 2 for non-humanoid, to get 2200gp.

Another player once tried to tell me it only cost 1400gp, because that's what he spent for his horse, which was tantalizing, but I can't recall his math now, and I must not have thought it made sense then or else I would have changed it on my sheet.

Other special materials have their quirks, too.

I believe SKR (or one of the designers) once said that Pathfinder is not a game of economics. Some players want to melt down huge-sized mithral chain shirts and sell the mithral by the pound and make a profit. Barring those players, IIRC, his thoughts were to just go with whatever cost the least, and move on with the game.

Dark Archive 4/5 *

Nefreet wrote:

Here's an example I had to figure out regarding my pet Spinosaurus:

A Breastplate costs 200gp.
A MWK Breastplate costs 350gp.
A Dragonhide Breastplate costs 700gp.

So I figured...

Breastplate Barding for a large-sized, non-humanoid creature costs 800gp.
MWK Breastplate Barding for the same creature costs 950gp.
So you'd think that Dragonhide Breastplate Barding would cost 1900gp, and that's what I went with for my Animal Companion.

But there are other ways to calculate this cost (that I didn't discover until later):
...snip

I asked the same question here and the consensus was to go with the cheapest option.

4/5

Flutter wrote:

Part VIII: Accessorizing

  • Furryborn: Absolutely insane on a creature with multiple attacks but you have to be very careful not to slow the game down recalculating.
  • Probably a Freudian slip, but I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be "Furyborn." Amazing guide so far, though :)

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

    For monks its Furyborn for druids its Furryborn nod.

    Grand Lodge 1/5

    One item that is missed, though technically it isn't just for your AC is the Reach Metamagic Rod.

    This wonderful Rod allows you to cast touch spells at 25' +5 per 2 levels. (Or increase the range of other spells by one step.)

    Remember, Range Personal/Self spells are Touch spells when used on your AC using Share Spells, meaning they now have that increased range as well if you use the Rod.

    One more special bit, use the rod with the spell Shield Companion and now it has a range of Medium, so you don't have to stay within short range of your AC to keep it functioning. (Shield Companion is in Animal Archive, it is a level 1 Shield Other for your AC only. Every casting class with an Animal Companion has Shield Companion on their spell list, it is in the description of the Spell.)

    Dark Archive 4/5 *

    Drake Brimstone wrote:

    One item that is missed, though technically it isn't just for your AC is the Reach Metamagic Rod.

    This wonderful Rod allows you to cast touch spells at 25' +5 per 2 levels. (Or increase the range of other spells by one step.)

    Remember, Range Personal/Self spells are Touch spells when used on your AC using Share Spells, meaning they now have that increased range as well if you use the Rod.

    One more special bit, use the rod with the spell Shield Companion and now it has a range of Medium, so you don't have to stay within short range of your AC to keep it functioning. (Shield Companion is in Animal Archive, it is a level 1 Shield Other for your AC only. Every casting class with an Animal Companion has Shield Companion on their spell list, it is in the description of the Spell.)

    My understanding is that this is not actually a legal use of Reach Spell in PFS, as per this.

    Grand Lodge 1/5

    CigarPete wrote:
    Drake Brimstone wrote:

    One item that is missed, though technically it isn't just for your AC is the Reach Metamagic Rod.

    This wonderful Rod allows you to cast touch spells at 25' +5 per 2 levels. (Or increase the range of other spells by one step.)

    Remember, Range Personal/Self spells are Touch spells when used on your AC using Share Spells, meaning they now have that increased range as well if you use the Rod.

    One more special bit, use the rod with the spell Shield Companion and now it has a range of Medium, so you don't have to stay within short range of your AC to keep it functioning. (Shield Companion is in Animal Archive, it is a level 1 Shield Other for your AC only. Every casting class with an Animal Companion has Shield Companion on their spell list, it is in the description of the Spell.)

    My understanding is that this is not actually a legal use of Reach Spell in PFS, as per this.

    I just read it and commented on it because the logic used to "ban" it seems a bit off to me. His own quote is saying it becomes a range Touch spell, but he is saying it doesn't.

    Also, you may have wanted to only quote the one line that that thread is in relation to. Even if it is a final decision that the Reach metamagic doesn't work with Share Spells everything else in my post is 100% good.

    Grand Lodge 1/5

    Dear Flutter,

    You have to ask your companion to assist you on your turn right?

    For example, here is how mine might go and the difficulties I've encountered:

    Scenario A
    INITIATIVE!
    Laughing Crow rolls a 4.
    Blanca rolls a 14.

    INIT - 14: Blanca delays to Laughing Crow.
    INIT - 4: Laughing Crow attacks BIGBAD#1 then uses the Attack trick to ask Blanca to attack BIGBAD#1. Blanca jumps in and attacks.

    Questions:
    1. He has Flank trick will Blanca use his 50ft of move to safely travel around BIGBAD#1 to flank? Or will he move to the nearest space and take a 5ft step around each turn to slowly get to flank?
    2. Will he charge if he can on his turn if I didn't tell him to? Or can he not charge?
    3. If he is already base to base, can I have him attack and then 5ft away? OR is that too tactical?

    Scenario B
    INITIATIVE!

    Laughing Crow rolls a 14.
    Blanca rolls a 4.

    INIT - 14: Laughing Crow casts Bless then uses the Attack trick to ask Blanca to attack BIGBAD#1.
    INIT - 4: Blanca...

    Questions:
    4. He has Flank trick will Blanca use his 50ft of move to safely travel around BIGBAD#1 to set up a flank for an ally next turn? Or will he move to the nearest space?
    5. Valeros kills BIGBAD#1. If there are more things to attack will Blanca attack them?
    6. What if BIGBAD#1 surrenders on INIT 10. Will Blanca attack anyway because my turn hasn't come around again to call him off?

    Can you illustrate how a few scenarios with your AC might look like?

    Your Biggest Fan,

    HAHACAW

    Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

    Laughing Crow wrote:


    Questions:
    1. He has Flank trick will Blanca use his 50ft of move to safely travel around BIGBAD#1 to flank? Or will he move to the nearest space and take a 5ft step around each turn to slowly get to flank?

    If he has the flank trick and you tell him to do it he's going to try to do it now.

    Whether he does it safely or not is technically up to the dm. Personally i consider reach to be something you can tell about a creature in most circumstances, and dogs usually know the difference between a human and a human with a stick.

    Quote:
    2. Will he charge if he can on his turn if I didn't tell him to? Or can he not charge?

    Charge is weird because its not actually a combat maneuver, so its not a special trick. Pouncing animals will definitely charge (since animals know how to use their abilities) so I'd say yes.

    Quote:
    3. If he is already base to base, can I have him attack and then 5ft away? OR is that too tactical?

    Up to the DM. I don't mind it. Usually I see dogs doing that when they're fighting something they'd rather not be fighting.

    Quote:
    4. He has Flank trick will Blanca use his 50ft of move to safely travel around BIGBAD#1 to set up a flank for an ally next turn? Or will he move to the nearest space?

    Setting up a flank that isn't there yet is probably beyond the scope of the trick on its own. A DM might be nice and let you do it anyway.

    Flank (DC 20): You can instruct an animal to attack a foe you point to and always attempt to be adjacent to (and threatening) that foe. If you or an ally is also threatening the foe, the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity. The animal must know the attack trick before it can learn this trick.

    But... if you want the critter in flanking position you can handle it as a free action and tell it to seek (to move into position) and then give it the attack command. This will probably cost it its attack though as it uses a move action to get there and a move action to look around.

    Quote:
    5. Valeros kills BIGBAD#1. If there are more things to attack will Blanca attack them?

    Wait.. Valeros killed something?

    I would say yes. And this is a big reason most DM's seem to just have the animal go with the other character. If the DM says no, delay until your animal companions turn.

    Quote:
    6. What if BIGBAD#1 surrenders on INIT 10. Will Blanca attack anyway because my turn hasn't come around again to call him off?

    Up to the DM. If they say yes, make sure to start delaying your action.

    Grand Lodge 1/5

    Thank you!

    1/5

    This has been an amazing thread. Can't wait to get my ranger's animal companion. I purchased the Animal Archive and I love it for the tricks alone, just as advertised.

    Silver Crusade 2/5 *

    As a GM, I don't let animal companions do anything "safely", ie I don't allow "tactics cat". But this also sucks out the NPCs' AOO's, so it usually ends up backfiring for the NPCs, not the pet owners. Most pets can suck up the attacks trivially.

    Most encounters in PFS just can't handle the extra hps and attacks that animal companions provide. Assuming the actual PC can also do something other than buff the animal.

    Unless my table has seven people, or there are 3+ pets at the table, I have pets and owners roll separate initiative, because I feel that the init stat block under the pet is not there for looks.


    Say I'm level 7 and my animal is now Large and it dies.

    Now the natural version of my animal is Huge which means when it's young (template) it's Large. My Medium one I have had for 6 levels was some sort of freak of nature.

    I send out the call...and a new companion comes and now I need to add feats and skills and all that fun stuff to him.

    Do I level him up from 1 step by step including reducing him to Medium size (and thus using the Medium stats for pre-reqs) or do I assume he has always been Large since they don't actually come in Medium size in the wild?

    This impacts a number of feat choices that use stats as pre-reqs.

    Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

    DirkSJ wrote:

    Do I level him up from 1 step by step including reducing him to Medium size (and thus using the Medium stats for pre-reqs) or do I assume he has always been Large since they don't actually come in Medium size in the wild?

    This impacts a number of feat choices that use stats as pre-reqs.

    From the druid section

    Note that animal companions cannot select a feat with a requirement of base attack bonus +1 until they gain their second feat at 3 Hit Dice.

    This heavily indicate that your animal grows organically rather than just appearing with its hit dice and large size. It had to qualify for the feats as it leveled, even if its level 7 the second you meet it.

    Once per session (if the DM is nice, even in the section the old animal companion died) you can train the new animal companion with one trick per rank you have in handle animal.


    I've wondered should people assume where no trick or feat is used an ac (or any animal in the game really) will behave like a normal animal? I see lots of suggestions to do mithril barding.

    I realize rl is a poor example but I'm sure if I put a coat on my dog (let alone a metal one) it would be a lot of sessions (ie training) before she stoppes trying ro rub it off.

    Or is this a versimikitude thing not really covered by the rules?

    The Exchange 5/5

    Mojorat wrote:

    I've wondered should people assume where no trick or feat is used an ac (or any animal in the game really) will behave like a normal animal? I see lots of suggestions to do mithril barding.

    I realize rl is a poor example but I'm sure if I put a coat on my dog (let alone a metal one) it would be a lot of sessions (ie training) before she stoppes trying ro rub it off.

    Or is this a versimikitude thing not really covered by the rules?

    after a year or two they get used to it... then you can take them adventuring. How long is it between adventures?

    Silver Crusade 2/5

    nosig wrote:
    Mojorat wrote:

    I've wondered should people assume where no trick or feat is used an ac (or any animal in the game really) will behave like a normal animal? I see lots of suggestions to do mithril barding.

    I realize rl is a poor example but I'm sure if I put a coat on my dog (let alone a metal one) it would be a lot of sessions (ie training) before she stoppes trying ro rub it off.

    Or is this a versimikitude thing not really covered by the rules?

    after a year or two they get used to it... then you can take them adventuring. How long is it between adventures?

    I thought it was 73.4 days between adventures?

    The Exchange 5/5

    DesolateHarmony wrote:
    nosig wrote:
    Mojorat wrote:

    I've wondered should people assume where no trick or feat is used an ac (or any animal in the game really) will behave like a normal animal? I see lots of suggestions to do mithril barding.

    I realize rl is a poor example but I'm sure if I put a coat on my dog (let alone a metal one) it would be a lot of sessions (ie training) before she stoppes trying ro rub it off.

    Or is this a versimikitude thing not really covered by the rules?

    after a year or two they get used to it... then you can take them adventuring. How long is it between adventures?
    I thought it was 73.4 days between adventures?

    something like that...

    but my wife has a PC that has been 5-7 months Pregnant for 10 levels now... but maybe she's on a second (or more) child?

    Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

    I figure if the ACP is zero then it doesn't irritate them at all.

    It's like putting on a t-shirt.


    Well my thoughts were getting used to it sounds a lot like training the animal to do something. But it looks like its not covered in the rules.

    Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

    It is covered in the rules.

    If a creature wears armor that it's not proficient with it takes a penalty on all attack rolls, dex-based skill and ability checks, and str-based skill and ability checks equal to the armor's ACP.

    Training (in the form of feats) negates those penalties.

    It's why I gave my Spinosaurus Medium Armor Proficiency. Without it his +2 Breastplate Barding would penalize his attacks by -3.


    No, i get it from the metagame Idea. It just seems odd that We assume animals dont like anything not natural to them unless they have either a feat or Trick to support it. However, there is no Trick or codified game thing to represent Training them to wear your breastplate barding without giving him the feat.

    Generally, speaking i assume animals in pathfinder behave like animals unless they have something of the above. Since They dont have the feat for the breastplate I assumed they would behave like an animal that was not trained in it. Although the idea of a spinosaur trying to rub himself against your leg to get the breastplate off is funny :P It looks like Its ignored given theres no rule preventng it.

    Although in hindsight, My dog is not the best representative of trained animals to use as an example/ i just assumed any Animal would behave similarly to her if they didnt have a feat or trick.

    Basically, i assumed with no feat for Light armor, regardless of the reduction of the ACP that the animal would not want to wear the armor.


    Nefreet wrote:

    It is covered in the rules.

    If a creature wears armor that it's not proficient with it takes a penalty on all attack rolls, dex-based skill and ability checks, and str-based skill and ability checks equal to the armor's ACP.

    Training (in the form of feats) negates those penalties.

    It's why I gave my Spinosaurus Medium Armor Proficiency. Without it his +2 Breastplate Barding would penalize his attacks by -3.

    They are talking about using Mithril to make the penalties 0 so that you don't have to take feats. I agree the concept of "getting the animal to be comfortable in the armor" is covered by proficiency feats...it's just that there is almost no reason to ever get those feats.

    Mithril kikko is +5 AC, max Dex 6, 0 Armor check penalty...so no penalty to any attacks or anything. If you don't want to spend 4k-ish on that armor a mithril chain shirt is only 1.5k-ish for +4 AC and max dex 6. Easily affordable.

    Medium Armor prof is a huge waste of two feats for 1 AC. If you are playing PFS you will only ever get 5 feats...up to 8 if you play a home game to 20. Way too large an investment for 1 AC.


    Mojorat wrote:
    Basically, i assumed with no feat for Light armor, regardless of the reduction of the ACP that the animal would not want to wear the armor.

    It probably doesn't but when you put the armor on him you could do a push check to tell him to accept the armor and not worry about it. DC 25 is not terribly hard for an animal companion. And anything an animal is physically capable of doing can be pushed.

    Many dogs wear clothes and are fine with it. There's even that lovely overly-priced cat armor (leather plates) I've seen for sale. A few push checks when you equip them and they should be good. With 0 armor penalty it's no more restrictive than a set of silken ceremonial robes or a plain white t-shirt.

    Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

    Tangent reply to DirkSJ:
    DirkSJ wrote:
    They are talking about using Mithril to make the penalties 0 so that you don't have to take feats.

    Oh I'm aware, hence my comment just before that about wearing armor with a zero ACP.

    DirkSJ wrote:
    Mithril kikko is +5 AC, max Dex 6, 0 Armor check penalty...so no penalty to any attacks or anything. If you don't want to spend 4k-ish on that armor a mithril chain shirt is only 1.5k-ish for +4 AC and max dex 6. Easily affordable.

    I'll be going that route soon with a Halfling Sohei I'm building. His Dog Animal Companion will be dedicating all his feats to In Harm's Way and won't have any room for Armor Proficiencies.

    DirkSJ wrote:
    Medium Armor prof is a huge waste of two feats for 1 AC. If you are playing PFS you will only ever get 5 feats...up to 8 if you play a home game to 20. Way too large an investment for 1 AC.

    It's more than 1 AC. You have to consider the cost.

    Mithral Kikko is somewhere in the 4k+ range for 5 AC, which means 5k+ for 6 AC, 8k+ for 7 AC, and 13k+ for 8 AC.

    A Breastplate is 200gp for 6 AC, 1k+ for 7 AC, and 4k+ for 8 AC.

    So those two feats are actually netting you +3 to AC, for the same cost.

    I considered all these options when I planned out my character, but in the case of building a Druid Animal Companion, for me, it was a verisimilitude thing as well. I've played Druids for 20 years now (Druid was the first class I ever played), and they've always had a prohibition on metal armor. For me that translates to their Animal Companion as well. I see it as a tad bit hypocritical to claim that your commitment to nature means not wearing metal, while at the same time outfitting your (often) large-sized companion with Mithral barding.

    I can't bring myself to do it, but I recognize PF has no rules against it.

    (I fronted the money and got my Companion Dragonhide to match my own set)

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