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As to the fighter getting massive bonuses vs grapple via favored class bonuses - you're edging into Schrodenger's fighter territory.
Although grapple is a good way to build a fighter, especially a lore warden or unarmed fighter. An unarmed fighter grapple specialist has the same DR as an invulnerable ranger, and has free access to grabbing style.
Being an all out four on four brawl puts the Monk in a good position since he/she could run away while the rest tear into each other and take on the last one standing.
As to the fighter getting massive bonuses vs grapple via favored class bonuses - you're edging into Schrodenger's fighter territory.
Umm why? As I mentioned above, it's not like getting more skill points is really that great on a fighter, so why not guard against a condition which really sucks to get, and becomes fairly common at high level? Mind you this is human only, but I build a lot of human fighters.
Do I need to make a build for this not to be quantum? Please demonstrate the monk builds then while you're at it. Odds are I already have such a build sitting around in Herolab for the fighter since I waste time on such things.
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As to the fighter getting massive bonuses vs grapple via favored class bonuses - you're edging into Schrodenger's fighter territory.
Umm why? As I mentioned above, it's not like getting more skill points is really that great on a fighter, so why not guard against a condition which really sucks to get, and becomes fairly common at high level? Mind you this is human only, but I build a lot of human fighters.
Do I need to make a build for this not to be quantum? Please demonstrate the monk builds then while you're at it. Odds are I already have such a build sitting around in Herolab for the fighter since I waste time on such things.
I'm not saying that NO fighter would have it. But it does seem unlikely that MOST fighters put EVERY point into it. And I don't see many human fighters myself - fighters tend to have feats to burn anyway. Especially for those who don't care about skills either. *Shrug* It just reminds me of the wizards who are all teleport specialists when grapple comes up. It's not an uncommon specialization. But they're only teleport specialists until they're diviners for the initiative. :P
As to monk builds - I don't think a monk could take a fighter in a toe to toe slug-match. (except perhaps for some builds with crazy AC) But any drunken master/quiggong monk with scorching ray/swift drinker and at least level 6 (to be fast enough to not be caught) could run away from an unarmed fighter forever, ocassionally peppering him with a scorching ray blast. No need for build comparisons. (And with deflect arrow he could beat a fighter with a bow for that matter.)
If they're fighting each other all out - I still say that a drunken master monk would beat any of the other three with ease unless they're locked in a small room. He just keeps his distance with his massive movement speed and scorching rays them to death with infinite ki.
His move speed is not massive enough to stop the Barbarian from Pouncing at him. Most characters will have Boots of Striding and Springing, which stacks with the Barbarian's Fast movement, putting him up to 50 feet, 100 feet on a charge.
The Monk gets a max of a 90 foot move speed, and his in an enhancement bonus as well, so does not stack with the boots.
Worst case scenario they start 75 feet apart (maximum range for Scorching Ray at CL 20), and the Monk tries to hit him, and moves 90 feet away.
The Barbarian spends one turn using the Run action to close 150 feet of that gap, leaving them 15 feet apart.
Monk whacks him with a Scorching Ray and moves back out to 105 feet.
Barbarian charges, pounces, and likely slices and dices Monk after taking damage (best case). He can tank it.
The Monk, however, probably can't tank nearly as well (conservative estimate, Witch Hunter adds an extra 5 damage, and other shenanigans can boost that even higher than +40 per hit).
At that point it becomes a war or attrition, and the Barbarian has a lot more resources to weather the siege than the Monk does.
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How about instead of theoritical builds that would all have a specific way to negate tactics we actually look at real enemies, and at a meaningful level.
Level 12 builds
Vs AC 27 (CR 12 avg) and AC 31 (CR 16 avg)
Don't build with the idea of countering each other. Build with the idea of contributing the most to the party overall.
The question of "Which is best?" usually means what will help me help the party the most. It's not, "Which of these builds has an ability to specifically invalidate another build and capable of beating them in a standup fight?". You don't know what you are going to be fighting typically at the start of an adventure Path, in fact you will fight many things along the way. So building a theoritical build thats perfect at countering one person isn't very helpful.
If you need other statistical data for monster to compare your build to please use the mean/median values listed for CR 12 and CR 16 creatures here.
As to monk builds - I don't think a monk could take a fighter in a toe to toe slug-match. (except perhaps for some builds with crazy AC) But any drunken master/quiggong monk with scorching ray/swift drinker and at least level 6 (to be fast enough to not be caught) could run away from an unarmed fighter forever, ocassionally peppering him with a scorching ray blast. No need for build comparisons. (And with deflect arrow he could beat a fighter with a bow for that matter.)
What if the fighter uses a composite longbow? He full-attacks, and his arrows have more range than a scorching ray...
How about instead of theoritical builds that would all have a specific way to negate tactics we actually look at real enemies, and at a meaningful level.
Level 12 builds
Vs AC 27 (CR 12 avg) and AC 31 (CR 16 avg)Don't build with the idea of countering each other. Build with the idea of contributing the most to the party overall.
The question of "Which is best?" usually means what will help me help the party the most. It's not, "Which of these builds has an ability to specifically invalidate another build and capable of beating them in a standup fight?". You don't know what you are going to be fighting typically at the start of an adventure Path, in fact you will fight many things along the way. So building a theoritical build thats perfect at countering one person isn't very helpful.
If you need other statistical data for monster to compare your build to please use the mean/median values listed for CR 12 and CR 16 creatures here.
Have to agree on that point. Vs scenarios are inherently problematic when it comes to comparing classes, especially since a lot of the differences between the various classes might be poorly reflected by how the test is set up. The Fighter's always going to look a lot stronger when the only things being considered are DPR and AC, the Barbarian's huge advantage in saves vs. spells and supernatural abilities means nothing if you only put him up against guys with purely mundane abilities.
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As to monk builds - I don't think a monk could take a fighter in a toe to toe slug-match. (except perhaps for some builds with crazy AC) But any drunken master/quiggong monk with scorching ray/swift drinker and at least level 6 (to be fast enough to not be caught) could run away from an unarmed fighter forever, ocassionally peppering him with a scorching ray blast. No need for build comparisons. (And with deflect arrow he could beat a fighter with a bow for that matter.)What if the fighter uses a composite longbow? He full-attacks, and his arrows have more range than a scorching ray...
Hence my mention of deflect arrow. If the monk has built for AC decently well (as monks should) it's far from a guarentee to hit with everything - and at the least the manyshot each turn will be deflected. This would shift the damage to the monk's scorching ray. (The fighter MIGHT have an edge at level 6 exactly with manyshot/rapid-shot & iterative when the monk's scorching ray is only 4d6. At level 7 the scorching ray's damage doubles.)
Monk whacks him with a Scorching Ray and moves back out to 105 feet.
Only if the monk is an idiot. He'd then use the run action too - getting way out of range, and then manuvering to be able to use scorching ray at near max range and then use his move action to get further away. There's no rush in a theoretical 1v1.
Besides - if you're talking high level then the drunken master/quigong can just use Blood Crow Strike or Sonic Thrust to kite the barbarian. (Medium & long range respectively.)
If the Monk runs away, there's no reason to follow. He's 360 feet that-a-way and the Barbarian can just find more favorable ground. At which point the fight gets very, very boring as a thought exercise and isn't worth speaking of.
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If the Monk runs away, there's no reason to follow. He's 360 feet that-a-way and the Barbarian can just find more favorable ground. At which point the fight gets very, very boring as a thought exercise and isn't worth speaking of.
Right - I'm not saying that the fight wouldn't be long and tedious. It would be. But the monk could continually run away, stealth up, and hit them with scorching ray at max range again and again with impunity.
I do think it's much less crazy/tedious than many of the explanations given of how wizards defeat their foes.
There's too many variables in that to really call it one way or another.
Barbarian can see the Monk coming when he tries to sneak up, or he could not.
One thing is for certain, at SOME point the Monk is going to be caught having moved to within 75 feet to fire his ray...and not have another Move action to get out. But if the Barbarian doesn't kill him in that one shot, he may be whittled down enough to lose...but his damage ouput can easily be up to the task, so again unclear.
The game changes entirely if the Barbarian uses a bow (say as an Urban Barbarian). At that point I'd give it to the Barbarian hands down since they'd b doing rouhly equal damage to each other, but the Barbarian can tank harder.
But really, the whole Scorching Ray bit kinda goe against the spirit of the debate. It was generally assumed both parties would be using unarmed strikes...in which case the Monk is out of teh running entirely.
On further reflection I'd say the Barbarian wins hands down in damage output at most levels, but the Brawler DOES have a neat trick he can pull against boss characters.
That guy can pull off a single big hit taht piles on so many status effects it would make your head spin. Knockout, Paralyzing Strike, and Stunning Fist alone are game changers, and he can pop out all three on a punch if he wants to. The DC is middling on Knockout, and fairly poor on Paralyzing Strike and Stunning Fist, but eventually somebody's gonna rol a 1...and he can still do that and Flurry at the same time if he wants.
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Damage output definitely goes to the barbarian. But I'm still not sure about a 1v1 fight if the monk jacks their AC into the stratosphere with crane wing etc. Especially if the barbarian is fighting unarmed - dropping his AC since he can't get an AoNA along with an AoMF. The only class that can get as high as a high level monk is a high level druid with wild armor/shield in shifted form. At level 20 a finesse monk with will easily have an AC in the mid 50's without fighting defensively. Higher when buffed properly and/or actually built for AC.
(And the ranged duel goes to the monk due to AC/deflect arrow except perhaps at level 6 exactly - as mentioned above. The monk can even fight defensively since he only has to hit touch with his full BAB.)
This is in no way saying that monks are better in a group - too many vaiables for that - but if you're looking for DPR go for the barbarian.
Especially if the barbarian is fighting unarmed - dropping his AC since he can't get an AoNA along with an AoMF.
A fighter/barbarian fighting unarmed can (and most certainly will) use magic gauntlets (or cestus/spiked gauntlets/...).
That's why they don't need AoMF.
On the other hand, the monk cannot without losing most of her powers.
And the ranged duel goes to the monk due to AC/deflect arrow except perhaps at level 6 exactly - as mentioned above. The monk can even fight defensively since he only has to hit touch with his full BAB
(Emphasis mine)
Since when does a monk have full BAB ?
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Especially if the barbarian is fighting unarmed - dropping his AC since he can't get an AoNA along with an AoMF.A fighter/barbarian fighting unarmed can (and most certainly will) use magic gauntlets (or cestus/spiked gauntlets/...).
That's why they don't need AoMF.
On the other hand, the monk cannot without losing most of her powers.
Well - I'm not sure if that counts as unarmed for this contest. But - sure. They get the AoNA. Their AC still isn't as high as a monk's at high levels.
The monk doesn't need an AoNA because virtually every monk build is a Quiggong who takes Barkskin at level 4 or 5.
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Since when does a monk have full BAB ?
I never said he had full BAB. I said that he uses "his full BAB" - which happens to be mid BAB, but still plenty good enough to hit a touch AC on a fighter or barbarian even when fighting defensively. I suppose I could have said "hit total BAB" to avoid confusion.
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STALWART TANKBARIAN
(fighter 1 / barbarian 18 / fighter 1)
str 32 (5+2r), dex 24 (5), con 24 (5), int 16, wis 20 (5), cha 16
+5 str (level), +6 all (gear), +5 str, +4 dex/con (book/wish)
traits: community minded / glory of old (not actually locked to dwarves for some reason!)
rage powers:
3 - superstition
5 - lesser beast totem
7 - beast totem
9 - reckless abandon
11 - greater beast totem
13 - guarded life
15 - greater guarded life
17 - auspicious mark
19 - improved DR/-
feats:
1 - diehard, endurance, power attack, combat reflexes
3 - combat expertise
5 - extra rage power (witch hunter)
7 - extra rage power (spell sunder)
9 - stalwart
11 - improved stalwart
13 - extra rage power (come and get me)
15 - extra rage power (strength surge)
17 - extra rage power (flesh wound)
19 - extra rage power (eater of magic)
20 - lunge*
shorthand: 42f/37r/35w vs magic & DR 21/- (42/- vs nonlethal) while raging/fighting defensively
(no proper gear as of yet, but i can produce some if needed--i'm considering dropping imp. DR/- for ghost rager or something)
.
BRAWLER TEST (named so because it was the first brawler I've attempted to build)
str 34 (10+2r), dex 18 (2), con 20 (5), int 16, wis 20 (3), cha 16
+5 str (level), +6 all (gear), +5 str/+1 wis (book/wish)
traits: Quan Martial Artist / Reactionary
maneuver training: grapple (+5), trip (+4), bull rush (+3), sunder (+2), disarm (+1)
feats:
1 - Power Attack, Weapon Focus (unarmed Strike)*, Improved Unarmed Strike*
2 - Dazzling Display*
3 - Dragon Style
5 - Cornugon Smash, Weapon Specialization (unarmed Strike)*
7 - Dragon Ferocity
8 - Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)*
9 - Shatter Defenses
11 - Violent Display, Lunge*
13 - Dreadful Carnage
14 - Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)*
15 - Penetrating Strike
17 - ???, Greater Penetrating Strike*
19 - ???
20 - ???*
.
IM TRIPPING BALLS (monk)
* - FCB spent on 5 ki points
vows of silence, truth, and fasting taken.
stats
START: str 16 (5+2), dex 14 (5), con 14 (5), int 11 (1), wis 16 (5+2), cha 9 (-1)
FINISH: str 30, dex 24, con 20, int 13, wis 26, cha 11
+5 str (level), +6 str/dex/con/wis, +2 int/cha (gear), +5 str, +4 dex/wis (book/wish)
traits: quan martial artist (+1 unarmed damage) / candidate for perfection (+1 attack on unarmed AoO's)
ki pool: 33 (10 level + 8 WIS + 5 FCB + 10 vows)
feats:
1 - racial heritage (halfling), improved trip*
2* - combat reflexes
3 - ki throw
5 - enhanced ki throw
6* - ???
7 - vicious stomp
9 - combat expertise
10* - improved critical (unarmed strike)
11 - greater trip
13 - dimensional agility
14* - ???
15 - dimensional assault
17 - dimensional dervish
18* - ???
19 - dimensional savant
* - monk bonus feats
GEAR:
weapon - +5 holy(2) courageous(1) fortuitous(1) menacing(1) clockwork prosthetic arm
shield - N/A
armor - N/A
head - Tri-Faced Helmet (+4 perception (enhancement), immunity to flanking, 360 view)
headband - +6 Headband of Wisdom
eyes - Lens of Detection (+5 perception (competence), +5 survival when tracking (competence))
neck - +5 Amulet of Natural Armor
shoulders - Cloak of Resistance (+5 all saves (resistance))
wrist - +8 bracers of armor
hands - ???
body - ???
chest - bane baldric (+2 atk, +2d6 dmg, swift action (5rd/day))
belt - +6 Belt of Physical perfection
feet - Boots of the Battle Herald (30rds of greater heroism/day)
ring - Ring of Protection (+5 AC (deflection))
ring - ???
slotless - clockwork prosthetics (arm x2, leg x2), pale green prism ioun stone (+1 atk/saves/skills/ability checks, competence), flawed pale green prism ioun stone (+1 attack/saves/skills/ability checks, morale (+3 w/ courageous)), wayfinder-slotted opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (unarmed strike) (+1 atk, grants WF), blus and scarlet sphere ioun stone (+2 int, enhancement), pink-and-green sphere ioun stone (+2 cha, enhancement)
.
QINGGONG TRADES:
slow fall (4th) -> barkskin (1 ki)
wholeness of body (7th) -> gaseous form (1 ki) or scorching ray (2 ki) or true strike (1 ki)
diamond body (11th) -> ki leech (0 ki (!!!))
quivering palm (15th) -> blood crow strike (2 ki)
timeless body (17th) -> penetrating strike (2 ki)
tongue of the sun and moon (17th) -> ???
empty body (19th) -> ???
perfect self (20th) -> ???
TRIPS AS [size (level, +CMB/CMD bonus)]:
medium -> large (4, +1) -> huge (8, +2) -> gargantuan (12, +4) -> colossal (16, +8) -> colossal+ (20, +???)
.
BAB: 15/10/5 (+20/+20/+20*/+20**/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 flurry+ki attack*+haste**)
Attack: +46/+46/+46/+46/+41/+41/+36/+36/+31 (20* bab, +10 strength, +5 enhancement, +2 haste, +1 WF, +1 competence,
+3 morale (courageous), +2 bane, +4 flank (menacing+DDSavant), -2 TWF) - +1 trait on AoO's, +4 if enemy is prone
CMB (trip)*: 56 (20* BAB, +10 strength, +8 size, +4 feats, +5 enhancement, +2 haste, +1 WF, +1 competence, +3 morale
(courageous), +2 bane, -2 TWF) - +1 trait on AoO's.
Damage: ~41 (2d10 base (11 avg), +2d6 holy (7 avg), +2d6 bane (7 avg), +10 strength, +5 enhancement, +1 trait)
AC: 49 (10 + 7 dex +13 monk +8 armor +5 natural +5 deflect +1 haste)
Saves: 26/29/29 (12/12/12 class, 5/7/8 stats, 5/5/5 cloak, 0/1/0 haste, 4/4/4 stone)
passive +8 vs bullrush/trip, +10 vs disarm (anything in his hand, +20 if held in both), and tripled lift/carry limits from his (clockwork) prosthetics.
.
for a proper fighter there's The Dwarfiest Dwarf
none of these are ultra-serious or made to fight against anyone in the thread, just dropping them in case folks might get some ideas from them.