So I'm working on the feats for my reach cleric-18STR, 8Int, (14 for the rest) and am struggling to choose the ones I can start with. We're starting at level four, so, being a human, I get 3 Feats. So far, I'm thinking Selective Channel (cause my group will kill me if I don't take it) and Combat Reflexes (duh) so the question becomes: what is my third?
Power Attack-Do an extra 3 damage at the cost of -1 to hit when my to-hit is +7 BEFORE Bull Strength as a domain spell? Sounds good to me.
Improved Initiative-Getting to cast Bull Strength or Enlarge Person and get into position is a lot better when I get to do it before them, rather than after.
Extra Channel-My group thinks of me as just the healer. So it's on the table, since I only have 5 as of now. Not my preferred.
As for armor and weapons, I'm thinking Breastplate and Longspear. Was considering a Buckler, but I feel like it would be kinda useless, as I need to give up the AC bonus to use it, not to mention the -1 on all my attack rolls to boot. So the question is, is it worth making the Breastplate a +2? Or just +1, with a +1 Longspear? And is a +1 Buckler worth it? Also considered making my armor Mithral, as it would eliminate my Armor Check with Armor Expert.
Clearly, I'm not sure what to do with my 6000 starting gold lol. Suggestions are more than welcome
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Combat reflexes, Bodyguard(attack of opp aid another boost AC), Adopted Trait, Helpful(halfling), (aid another +4)
get yourself magical Benevolent Armor
Price +2,000 gp; Aura faint enchantment; CL 5th; Weight —
This suit of armor best serves a wearer who focuses on assisting and protecting his allies. Benevolent armor is usually decorated with motifs of prosperity, plenty, and generosity, such as helping hands, cornucopias, and flourishing plants. When the wearer of a suit of benevolent armor uses the aid another action to give an ally a bonus to AC against an opponent's next attack, he also adds the benevolent armor's enhancement bonus to the ally's AC.
basically up to +9 AC to allies that you are adjacent to against creatures you threaten. as your a cleric you can easily make yourself invulnerable enlarged and uber
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btw channeling is a Trap it only heals 2d6 at your level also with only a charisma of 14 that means you can only deselect 2 creatures so you will often be healing the enemy's. it is good out of combat. you are better off using Offensive powers to remove the enemy's rather than having to mop up what they break. use your spells to buff yourself and smash your enemy's use your Bodyguard ability to deny their hits.
ditch selective channeling for Power attack.
-1 att for +3 damage
especially when often you will roll 2 for your channel and pretty much be doing nothing with it
I know, I agree, yet they rey on it pretty heavily, especially since I can never seem to get to anyone for a heal when combat starts
As for the beneficial stuff, that actually seems pretty cool, will need to check that out.
So this is definitely an interesting build. Any other suggestions?
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Power attack, then Improved Initiative. You will not regret either. You hit harder, and you act sooner. Both feats apply to every round of every combat. Magda is a 9th level PFS reach cleric. It's a very effective approach.
Perhaps your group will wise up when you out-damage the melee specialists. Sometimes you will. When a reach cleric buffs into Clericzilla mode they inflict about as much martial damage as a Barbarian.
I think you can skip Selective Channeling. I concur that it's a trap. You will prevent far more damage with the threat of AoOs than you can ever heal, unless your companions are very foolish and have no sense of self-preservation. Your attacks will hit for 20+ HP each, and you will often get multiple attacks per round. Occasionally healing a foe for 7 HP, along with your entire team, is a rounding error.
Don't let them rely on you to heal in combat. It's a waste of your talents. Sure, if someone is in imminent danger you should try to save them. If a badly wounded ally lacks the sense to fall back to a safer location then they deserve what they get. The best way to protect your allies is to swiftly and decisively destroy the foe, then heal them out of combat.
Which is exactly what I hope to convince them of at some point lol. But the general group consensus for the Cleric is to heal them in combat and then let them continue to do the damage. Hopefully they'll change their minds by the time i get to implement the character.
Well the whole issue I'm having is Power Attack VS Improved Initiative, since I plan on taking Combat Reflexes and likely bodyguard now. I'll likely take one of those at level 5, unless I end up taking a Craft Skill. But until then, between Power Attack and Improved Initiative, which one should I go with?
Also, any suggestions for a back-up 2-handed weapon? In case I get backed into a corner and can't use my Longspear anymore.
Although the Halfling Race Trait Helpful is from a book we're not presently using, as far as I know. If my GM shoots it down, any other suggestions?
EDIT: oh, and Humphrey, it would be +11 AC-Breastplate is +6, then +4 for helpful, then +1 for being a +1 armor (i intend to make it that) Though it would be +9 if they don't let me do helpful
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I suggest power attack and then improved initiative. Going fist is almost always better, however most fights start with you throwing up a buff anyway, so it's not at pertinent as say a witch.
I would not recommend taking bodyguard, as a reach Cleric you should be focused on spell casting, positioning and AoO 's. Using one of your three precious AoO to give someone a +2ac. Instead, I would take weapon Focus or furious focus + power attack.
Honestly if you keep you wits about you you should never have to use anything other than a spear. So a backup weapon is just a money sink IMHO.
What are your domains?
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I suggest:
1-Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative or Selective Channeling or something else entirely
3-Power Attack
I see your point about wanting to go first so you can cast buffs, but I simply don't like buffing during combat. Me, I'd skip the Improved Initiative, but I don't think you're wrong if you want to take it.
I don't see channeling as a trap. Yes, there are some people with strong sentiments against healing in combat, but there's just times when you have to. Being able to exclude only 2 opponents isn't a big deal as many fights don't feature lots of opponents, and when they do, these are lower level and not likely to cause you to need to channel during combat. It's the fights against the big guys that threaten to kill people. In any case, you should generally not be healing during combat unless you have to, but should be prepared to do so if needed.
I'm not impressed with Bodyguard. Using up one of your AOOs to grant a +2 (or +4 if you want to burn a trait) AC to one ally for one attack... and you have to bunch up to do it? Terrible (less terrible with the trait). At higher levels, the +2/4 becomes irrelevant and you probably don't want to always be bunching up. If you want to be helpful at high levels, take Divine Interference at Level 11.
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Take a normal sling and a club as secondary weapons. You can swing the club two-handed for Power Attack, and you will need it versus e.g. skeletons. The sling adds your strength bonus to damage. Both are cheap.
By 5th level you should be able to buff to roughly +10 to hit and +16 damage. That's more than most Barbarians at that level. When rushed by many foes you should get all your AoOs. Hopefully your allies will learn that clerics are for more than healing.
Bodyguard on it's own is meh. but combined with Benevolent armor is +9 to AC for my allies (can't take the trait). This will make my foes attack me instead of them, thus my AoOs still work properly, whether they be defending out spellcaster (who dies. a lot.) Or them coming after me and thus I use my AoO on them.
My domains are Strength and Travel, btw. Bull Strength is my favorite buff as of now, and I need those extra 10ft, further if I cast Longstrider.
The problem with being just a Reach Cleric is that my GM likes to find every way around our strategies that he can, like ignoring the tank character who wants to get hit and so on. With Bodyguard, he gets to pick-attack me, or attack my allies who are squishies-made-unsquishy. Whichever he goes with I have plenty of AoO to play with to make hell for my opponents.
As for those buffs, Magda, I'm not seeing it. at level 5, I'd be +11 to hit and only +6 to damage, though both would be 1 higher with my +1 Longspear. Where are you getting that extra 10 from?
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I actually quoted you numbers for 4th level, but they don't change much when you level up to 5th. Since you don't have the Growth domain I subtracted one point of bonus damage.
Here's how you get a 4th level cleric buffed to +11 to hit and 2d6+17 damage. I interjected that comment into 'Battle of the Martials' and everyone roundly ignored it, even though that build, when buffed, topped all the others. I guess it wasn't an approach they wanted to hear. It's not fair that a full caster PC can be better at melee combat than a dedicated martial PC, but there you have it. That's probably why Clerics are Tier I.
At 5th level, if you are an Evangelist, you can add another +2 +2, for a maximum +13 to hit for 2d6+19. Also note that I used only normal, non-magical armor and weapons costing fewer than 100 GP. The Luck domain does not contribute to buff numbers at all. Also note the mere 16 Strength and lack of attribute dumps.
I've actually played similar builds in and out of PFS play, so I know this build actually works (really well!) in practice. By 5th level Magda routinely inflicted more than 100 HP damage in a round, mostly with AoOs. If such a character can max-buff her martial ability is amazing. If she can't buff at all she is just so-so. At 9th level Magda typically self-buffs +19 to hit for 2d8+1d6+26 damage. A dedicated polearm warrior can do slightly better, but is not also a full caster.
Another way to draw attention from hostiles is to do multiple attacks each for big damage.
Again, the bonuses are: +6 to hit and +9 damage from modified 22 STR (16 + Enlarge + Bull's Strength),
+3 BaB, -1 to hit +3 damage from Power Attack, +2 +2 damage from Divine Favor, 0 +2 from Weapon of Awe, +1 +1 from Magic Weapon
WOW that is a lot of buffs, would take like 4 rounds to get that going. I think by the time I set those up, the party would either be dead from lack of heals or have already beaten the threat lol (our group typically just rushes into battle, there's not much pause to do smart things)
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WOW that is a lot of buffs, would take like 4 rounds to get that going. I think by the time I set those up, the party would either be dead from lack of heals or have already beaten the threat lol (our group typically just rushes into battle, there's not much pause to do smart things)
That's not how you do it. It's rarely worth time in-combat to buff. Indeed, if the group is not smart enough to buff up before an inclement battle, even when the scout warns them it's coming, there's not much hope :-) That sort of reckless aggression works OK at low levels for easy foes, but tends to fail utterly at middle and high levels versus tough, cunning foes. Is your group disciplined enough to exploit the huge tactical advantage that often comes from letting the foe approach, instead of rushing the foe? If not, that's probably why they need so much in-combat healing.
Most of those buffs are minutes per level. You put them up as soon as the scout reports trouble ahead, when the party is ready to move. By 6th level you have enough spells to buff several times per day. Use Swift Actions effectively. E.g. Growth Domain gives Swift Action Enlarge Person, which is your best buff.
Only Divine Favor (1 minute hard duration) and Inspire Courage are in-combat buffs ,and by 9th level that can be Quickened. At 9th level Magda usually takes these actions in combat:
Pre-buffs before combat, if possible: Bull's Strength (9 minutes, or 18 minutes with Extend metamagic), Weapon of Awe (9 or 18 minutes), possibly Magic Vestment and/or Greater Magic Weapon (both all-day buffs). Always keep several Bull's Strength prepared. Keep an open spell slot at every spell level if at all possible.
Round 1:
Move action: Start Inspire Courage for +2 +2 to entire team
Swift Action: Cast Quickened Divine Favor (4th level spell) for +4 +4 to self
Standard Action: Whatever seems right. Usually not a buff, unless it's Blessing of Fervor for the whole team.
5' step to the tactically best place
End Turn
Hopefully get some AoOs
Round 2:
Swift Action: Activate Grayflame weapon is DR is an issue
Rest of round: Whatever is needed
My team may not be the smartest-but with my new guy I may start taking some precautions when I know a big battle is coming.
I just hope that when I finally get to use this Reach Cleric, my group will wisen up. Last time we went into combat, there were 7 foes in the room, 6 undead and a Necromancer. I was hoping to let the zombies come to us so I could Channel, when the Monk and Rogue run up to the Necromancer and beat her to death in like 2, 3 turns. Which killed the zombies.
As of now, that seemed to work-though I get the feeling that eventually that's gonna backfire and I'm gonna take blame for not healing them.
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Right. The Necromancer was foolish to allow your team to get at her like that. Had she been cunning, here's what she might have done:
1. Dress up the best preserved zombie to look like a necromancer. Give it a prominent Unholy Symbol. Have it stand in the back, just behind a pit trap filled with poison spikes. Instruct it to mumble and gesture, as if casting a spell, should anyone enter the room. To be especially convincing give it a 'bodyguard' zombie.
2. Dress herself to look like a small, weak, lame zombie doing something unimportant in a corner. Better yet, watch from behind a secret panel in the wall, or otherwise concealed and protected. That way, if her zombies lose, she can safely flee.
3. Arrange the zombies around the doorway so they will get AoOs on anyone trying to rush in. Zombies do get AoOs. Instruct her zombies to first grapple, then kill anyone entering the room.
4. If she is at least 3rd level, cast Desecrate several hours before the PCs arrive, or as soon as she knows there may be danger. The zombies are much harder to turn, and get +1 to hit and +1 damage on all attacks.
5. While the PCs are fighting the zombies, cast Summon Monster again and again, targeting the party spell casters in the back, while remaining concealed. If several of her zombies are looking worn she can Channel Negative Energy to Heal Undead. Should many PCs enter the room she can also Channel Negative Energy to Harm Living, still without exposing her position.
Had the necromancer taken these elementary precautions, how would your group have done?
The first few times I tried to play a reach-style build I struggled with a few foolish martial allies. They would always try to rush the foe, and thereby maximize the damage they suffered, minimize the damage they inflicted, block me from getting AoOs, and even prevent the wizard from casting effective spells.
We found that the antidote was patience and training.
One time the wizard said, at the top of the round, "Don't approach them! I am going to Fireball!" The foolish martials rushed the foe anyway. The wizard cut loose with the fireball anyway. They complained, but they felt stupid complaining, as they had been warned.
One big problem was that several players did not want to miss their turn. The antidote was teaching them about the Delay action and the Ready action. This helped tremendously, once they understood. If they beat the wizard in initiative they would delay until battlefield control was in place.
A second hurdle was helping them to understand Attacks of Opportunity. This video helped a lot. Once they realized it was possible to get three extra attacks per round, when it wasn't even their turn, they became a lot more open to alternative tactics.
The final hurdle was teaching them not to block my AoOs. To accomplish this I would end my turn by saying, "My character sets her Blade Barrier trap here. Your actions can cause foes to either trigger or avoid my trap." Then I would actually draw her threatened zone (e.g. her faux Blade Barrier trap) on the battle map.
Once they understood how this all worked they were great! Overall team effectiveness increased drastically. Also, the amount of in-combat healing I had to do dropped way off, because they took far less damage.
There were a few times when I had to administer 'tough love'. E.g. A lone warrior, badly wounded and in a foolishly vulnerable position, called for healing. I called back, "I can't safely get to you there! Come to me and I'll heal you!". He didn't like that, but he did retreat.
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Kind of curious as to why you aren't taking the summoning approach with this character.
All the melee stuff is well and good, but honestly you will get a lot more from the summon monster spells.
It will eat you feats up, but I just don't think any other approach is as powerful or useful. Need the right alignment though.
The Reach Cleric guide strongly emphasizes Sacred Summons. It is a great option, but it's not the only thing a reach cleric can do with her time. Take martial feats early in your career, then either summoning or some other schtick later in your career.
Summon Monster doesn't get good until about 5th level. Before that you are entirely martial. That may be the first half of your career. At higher levels Summoning is a solid option, or a terrific option if you take the right feats and the battlefield conditions allow. The full sequence is (possibly Sacred Summons), Skill Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summons, Superior Summons. Your 11th level feat should be reserved for Divine Interference. That gives you six feats up through 9th level. Your martial juju comes from Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and Improved Initiative.
Versus foes that wanted to get close Summon Monster is not always the best option. Instead, maximize your team's martial damage.
Versus foes that hang back and refuse to close, Summon Monster is your missile weapon.
Well the Necromancer didnt know we were coming and used her turn to take control of our rogue, who does the most damage in our group. But before anything could really happen, the monk with Flurry of Blows and a Ki point beat her to death. Was funny, since we'd struggled with a few Skeletons earlier that day. GM nearly threw his book when it happened, but he was laughing
So looking over your clericzilla build, I see that you have your unbuffed damage from the Lonspear at 1d8 +7. Where is the 7 coming from? 3 from your strength, but the rest? I'm missing something.
Also, totally not doing the bodyguard thing-it's the armor's enhancement bonus, not the armor's AC bonus. totally misread that lol
I thought she said she casts Magic Weapon instead of having the +1 spear...
I thought she said she casts Magic Weapon instead of having the +1 spear...
6 of one, half dozen of the other...
Both apply the same bonus to attack/damage
Not when one is supposed to be pre-buff, the other post-buff. Otherwise she added the bonus twice.
Also, if I cast Enlarge Person on myself, i get a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 Dex Penalty, and a -1 to AC and on Attack Rolls. So does that mean my Damage goes up by two, my Attack by one? or Damage up by one, Attack stays the same? And does my AC go down by 3, 2, or 1?
Like Bull Strength giving her a +2 in to hit, but +3 in damage.
So what is it for the Enlarge Person?
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Like Bull Strength giving her a +2 in to hit, but +3 in damage.
So what is it for the Enlarge Person?
Remember, we're dealing exclusively with two handed weapons, so strength bonuses are +50% to damage, and Power Attack is -1 +3. That's what Fomsie was missing.
Bull's Strength gives +2 to hit and +3 to damage. Remember, it's a two handed weapon. Check the math, you'll see that's correct.
Base 16 Strength gives +3 to hit and +4 damage
Power attack gives -1 to hit and +3 damage
BaB is +3
Thus, with no buffs and no magic weapon that's +5 to hit and +7 damage. You tell the GM you always power attack unless you specify otherwise. Enlarge Person makes that +5 to hit and +9 damage on larger damage dice. Bull's Strength makes that +7 to hit for +12 damage. Other buffs increase it from there. Note the trait Fate's Favorite, which increases the luck bonus from Divine Favor.
Enlarge Person has several effects that you care about. In order of importance these are:
1. It doubles your reach. A Large creature with a reach weapon threatens a 50' diameter doughnut.
2. You get one fewer AoO, minimum 1.
3. Your weapon damage changes from M to L. Thus, a longspear goes from 1d8 to 2d6
4. Your to hit remains the same. The modifiers cancel.
5. Your AC gets worse by 2
6. You get either +1 or +2 to damage, depending on your starting strength. The variation is due to rounding. The sweet spots are starting STR 12, 16, and 20.
If anyone finds any errors in my numbers I'd like to know about it. Please post the correction :-) You might want to check your math twice, first, as I'm 95% certain it's all correct.
My experience in actual play (no theory-craft) is that one can usually stack all those buffs, except Divine Favor, before a big fight. That's why I quickened Divine Favor. Being surprised sucks.
Speaking of buffs, here's a great buff any level 6+ Cleric can probably do for the whole party: Cast Summon Monster III and request a Lantern Archon. Politely ask it to cast Aid on each party member. Everyone gets 1d8+3 temporary HP and a +1 luck bonus. For a team of six that's 45 temporary HP, good for 3 minutes, from a 3rd level spell. Do this just before starting a battle.
OK, I see it now-that was driving me crazy, couldn't figure out what I was missing there lo. Ya never mentioned it, and the way you were wording it threw me off. Bull Strength, for example, gives you +2 for the two things, but the 2-handed weapon fighting makes it a 3 for damage. All you said was it gave a +3 which threw me off. my bad
So if I do the majority of what you suggested, I do 2d6+20 when fully buffed. Suck it Sorcerer who doesn't believe Clerics are good unless they heal! lol
So now, without doing the Benevolent Armor, I intend to have a +1 Breastplate and a +1 Weapon. That leaves me with a lot of gold left over to fiddle with. Any suggestions?
Oh, and Clubs aren't 2-handed weapons.
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The problem that thew me on the math was the Magic Weapon casting, I didn't see it with the list of buffs.
While impressive for the achievement though, what your buffs essentially did at 4th level was spend 5-6 rounds of buffing, even if we assume advance notice and say just 1-2 rounds of buffing, to make your cleric equal to a fighter for 1 fight.
Don't ignore the support aspects of a cleric in an effort to prove that you can make yourself a fighter for part of the day.
Also, reach weapons are great, but they don't make you invulnerable. A martial enemy will still close with you, sure they will eat one AoO getting there, but then they will be in your face and able to do the 5' step dance with you to stay there. Having someone directly in your face will expose some of the differences between a full and 3/4 melee character.
I know, I agree, yet they rey on it pretty heavily, especially since I can never seem to get to anyone for a heal when combat starts
They won't need to rely on your healing if you're in there carving up the monsters - just don't get yourself unconscious.
Beware of the Buff Trap - each combat round spent buffing is you not solving the problem with the monsters trying to kill you. Better to get in there with Power Attack asap.
Oberon: That's what makes my AoO so great-it says I can declare it when i make an attack roll. As far as i can tell, this includes AoO. So lets say it shows up. On my turn, I buff up and tell the party to ready attacks. Then, when it runs up at me, I get my buffed AoO and others get their readied attacks. It will likely be near death at that point, so I can either heal up or just hit it with something else. The combat wont last long beyond that.
Well the way I plan on doing things is to provide support to the team while getting my AoOs during normal fights, giving out, say, Bull Strength to the Monk. But then, when it comes to something we know is coming, I buff up and do over 20 points per strike.
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Don't worry so much about single buffs on teammates... a bless spell is more useful to the group than a single Bull's Strength... just remember you have a lot of utility as a cleric, don't let yourself get bogged down playing buff bot or pseudo fighter any more than being a heal bot. Little things to remember, enlarge lets you use touch spells on allies from 1 extra square away as well, allowing better battlefield assisting.
Well we have Bard, whose Bardic Performance kicks the crap out of my group buff, the only one I really have right now being Bless anyway. Good to know about the touch though, will keep that in mind
I was told specifically that they dont o.o
they're both morale boosters.
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I was told specifically that they dont o.o
they're both morale boosters.
Common mistake. If you read all of Inspire Courage you will see that the morale bonus is on the saves vs fear and charm effects, but the bonus to hit and damage is actually a competence bonus.
Well who knew lol
SO! Still could use some help with good armor ideas, as well as could use an idea for a trait-but it has to be APG
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Hey 2ndGenerationCleric
I played a bit reach cleric, altho I didn't really get far with him in PFS. Typically I tend to build my characters to be good all around so I am having fun time with him but there is few problems that I encountered, most of all, party tactics.
Most of time, every player is attention hungry and there is little time to discuss tactics and even if it is, party tends to throw it in the garbage can and charge in smacking everything. These aren't exactly favorable conditions for a reach cleric as you might shine most when opponents come to you, taking several AoO's before closing in to retaliate on you.
As a severe front-liner I went with heavy armor proficiency. There isn't many moments when you can use AoO's, especially in single BBEG fights. I did get Heavy Armor Proficiency as bonus feat tho, so that was one of reasons also, but at the moment I didn't regret it, even with 12 DEX which I have currently.
I don't recommend using Enlarge Person also, it reduces your DEX which reduces the number of your AoO attacks.
You shouldn't focus on your damage output completely tho. Sometimes throwing a buff or heal is better choice. Buffing is typically acceptable for 2 rounds, beyond that is waste of time unless opponents can't reach/hit you. Cleric is a spellcaster after all. (I recommend Power Attack over Imp. Initiative)
My guts tells me that you won't really change attitude of your friends toward melee clerics with this build tho, but I might be wrong.
In either case, these are my thoughts.
Hope it helps!
Malag
I have to disagree on Enlarge Person. Or rather, at least put an asterisk on your advice. Enlarge person can really do a lot for a reach cleric, though it does come with the penalty that it reduces your AoOs; that all is true. However, the big thing that is the determining factor is what your point buy is. For 15 or below, you usually can't get your Dex high enough for it to be worth it. For 25, you can usually get your Dex high enough that the boons of Enlarge person outweigh the loss of an AoO. For 20, it's much more of a judgement call, based on your number of enemies, among other factors. However, as you're a a cleric, not a spontaneous caster who has to make careful selection of your spells known, you can easily gauge it for yourself. Are you consistantly using less AoOs than you have available to you? or are you using all of them and even potentially missing opportunities because you don't have enough Dex? If it's the former, then Enlarge is a good call. If it's the latter, Bull's strength will probably be a lot better.
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Common mistake. If you read all of Inspire Courage you will see that the morale bonus is on the saves vs fear and charm effects, but the bonus to hit and damage is actually a competence bonus.I was told specifically that they dont o.o
they're both morale boosters.
Yep. In 3.5 I believe Inspire Courage was a morale bonus but these days the attack & damage boosts are competence. Very common mistake.