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the problem of rogues, every classes do what they do better. It's seriously the biggest issue.
There is like 2 or 3 bard archetypes with trapfinding and sneak attack, at least one ninja thingy to detect traps, Alchemist can buff themselves, the party, sneak attack and trapfinding too. We already knew for a long time that wizards and other casters sneak better than rogues anyday, druid become small animals or elementals and can sneak better totally unnoticed virtually anywhere.
I mean, I understand the roleplay appeal of rogues and there is nothing wrong with that...just what they do is really nothing special mechanically.
sure, there are classes that can do a SPECIFIC job of the rogue, maybe 2. But what about the other things the rogue does? Can a ranger use a wand? (without a dip?) Can the fighter sneak into an area, set traps/ambushes/steal needed mcguffin? I don't think so IIRC.
I hope you are not being serious.
And if you are, I present to you the alchemist.
sure, there are classes that can do a SPECIFIC job of the rogue, maybe 2. But what about the other things the rogue does? Can a ranger use a wand? (without a dip?)
Yes. Without a UMD check even.
Can the fighter sneak into an area, set traps/ambushes/steal needed mcguffin? I don't think so IIRC.
If you want to build them that way, yes.
The value of versatility decreases dramatically as the population increases. Its very rare that you need to sneak somewhere and disarm a trap and then talk to the princess. It thus becomes very easy to spread those jobs out.
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sure, there are classes that can do a SPECIFIC job of the rogue, maybe 2. But what about the other things the rogue does? Can a ranger use a wand? (without a dip?) Can the fighter sneak into an area, set traps/ambushes/steal needed mcguffin? I don't think so IIRC.
Rangers actually have wand use even easier then a Rogue, what with actually having a class list...
@ I'd say ninja'd by Eltacolibre, but they aren't very good either so.. Wizarded.
Even outside of the class list, UMD as a class skill is just a trait away.
that.. was a brain fart on my part. I need sleep.
We all need sleep.. but the madness... she consumes us...
Even outside of the class list, UMD as a class skill is just a trait away.
And even if you don't take it as a trait your only down by 3 versus someone who does. I mean yes the 3 helps, but its not like its a *huge* bonus.
I don't understand why rogues get such a bad reputation.
Let's compare Rogues to melee Fighters. I'll be breaking each class down into roughly equivalent class features and directly comparing them.
** spoiler omitted **...
Well first off for any of this to hold true you have to assume strength rogue which is completely counter intuitive for the class.
Fighters are proficient in ALL martial weapons that's a metric ton of feats. IMHO Smack attack is a poor feat for the fighter to take.
BAB is really important.
That all said. Dex-Rogues can be devastating combatants with many tricks at their disposal. Skill mastery is THE advance talent for rogues and critical for a tactics they should never neglect: Viable range combat and 'what I do when I can't flank?'. To the first, UMD is my favorite answer. Rogues are one of the few classes that can UMD staffs effectively let alone wands. To the second you need a feint or intimidate build. YOU MUST NEVER BUILD A DEX ROGUE WHO IS USELESS WHEN THEY ARE NOT FLANKING. Personally I find TWF to be a trap. One handed rapier is where it at.
Lastly a responsible rogue shores up her saves for when she doesn't have the right counter buff spell on.
Math estimates:
At lvl 12 with a +1 agile rapier and 22 dex
Feint + Opportunist + Arcane Strike = 2 sneak attacks at +16 to-hit for 7d6+10
Flanking + Haste + Opportunist + Arcane Strike =4 sneak attack at +19/+19/+19/+14 to-hit for 7d6+10
(rough math for fighter to-hit = 12-4+2+2+6 = 18, rough math on damage 2d6+25, Plus 22 to-hit if hasted and flanking)
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I think we may have one of those interesting situations where everyone is right - to an extent. Bear with me here.
The Rogue is a very good class at low level (1-5). Sneak attack works regularly at this point making it a viable attack option, and gives the rogue a solid damage boost. It's plethora of skill points give it numerous noncombat functions and some good combat movement options via acrobatics. It's hp are d8 based, giving it enough to work with at this level. Rogue talents can give it some nice bonus feats that help keep the to hit number solid. Overall, a good class choice at this level.
At mid levels (6-12), the rogue starts lagging behind a bit, mainly because so many other classes hit their stride in this area. Full spellcasters start getting mid level spells (3rd-5th), which are a notable jump in power. Full BAB classes begin to get iterative attacks, upping their damage potential. Several classes gain secondary abilities significantly improving their effectiveness: Bane, Dex to damage, 8th level domain/school abilities, major hexes, etc. Others gain additional ability uses, allowing them to shine in more encounters, such as additional smites, challenges, judgments.
Some of the rogue's noncombat abilities become less special at this level as well, simply due to the nature of the skill system. Some skills have static DC's, which now Joe the 8 INT Fighter can make regularly with his meager skill ranks and taking 10. There's still several opposed skills (or ones with scaling DC) that keep the rogue's skill point bonanza viable, but the rogue might want to look into skill focus to stay ahead of the curve on some of them - Stealth, acrobatics, and perception come to mind.
Sneak attack takes a bit of a hit here as immune creatures like oozes, swarms, and incorporeal undead start popping up. AC and CMD's start increasing at this point too, but a smart rogue can get a hold of invisibility items, which can negate or reduce this problem.
Honestly, someone with decent system mastery, careful feat/talent planning, and/or good equipment selection can keep the rogue not only viable, but make one that's outright dangerous and a blast to play. A rogue who can get off a full attack sneak attack at this level can be down right devastating.
And finally we hit high level (13+). And here's where the game mechanics, and math, turn hard on the rogue. Remember that invisibility trick that kept the rogue in sneak attack heaven? Doesn't work so well now. Take a look in the Bestiaries at the creatures of CR 13 or greater. It's scary how many have see invisibility, true sight, tremorsense, or a similar ability that tanks that option. "So what", you say? "I'll just maneuver into flanking with my fighter buddy and go to town." And here's where math can hurt. CMD's at this level can get rather high, making acrobatics checks to bypass threatened areas a crap shoot at best. And even if you can make the DC, who says the creature will still be there? Combat at this level is rocket tag. Your fighter buddy might be pumping out enough damage to kill all but a boss creature in a standard action (or kill the boss if he's a pouncing barbarian or smiting paladin).
And comparing the rogue to other classes at this level will probably just bruise his ego. Spellcasters are using game changing spells. Martial characters are pumping out ridiculous damage every round of every encounter. Grand hexes, final judgments, and capstone abilities galore populate characters sheets. Unless you have an awesome GM who pays special attention to the rogue to give her regular shining moments, the rogue is going to be a very bright candle in a room full of spotlights.
Of course, there might be a rogue of awesomeness build I haven't encountered at this level, so I could be wrong. This was just my experience as a player and GM. Your mileage may vary.
In the end, play the character you want to play. If you love rogues, play them to your heart's content. And remember, if the rest of the party is so awesome that they don't need you to kill the dragon, that just gives you an extra round or two alone with the treasure... :-)
offensive defense is better than any feat I know of.Certaily not better than extra rage, extra arcna or extra revelation.
Depends on the revelation, arcana, and rage in question. There are some gosh awful ones. That said, might be more fair to compare it to say... extra rogue talent? Offensive Defense itself isn't a feat. Most people aren't in a rush to pileup on rogue talents, and on the other hand rage powers are hard to have enough of. (Extra revelations is in a similar place, but its because of limited selection rather than quality.)
Even outside of the class list, UMD as a class skill is just a trait away.You don't even need it as a class skill to put ranks into it.
Another thing is rogues don't have much of a reason to crank charisma so they may still not be the best even in class and putting every rank into it. Could you imagine a class that has UMD in class and is charisma based? Or a trait to make it work on another attribute, like intelligence?
Edit: Same with most skills really. They don't become inherently better at skills outside of amassing a lot of skill points and the few rogue talents that work with skills, many of which are considered the bad ones(once per day rerolls I'm looking at you!). Bard actually has more skill points, and its very possible for a intellect based caster like the wizard to too!
Rogues can mimic class features like caster level with UMD. Like for staffs.
At 10 a rogue with 10 cha, skill focus UMD, and skill mastery (which all rogues should take skill mastery at 10 IMO) can take 29 on their UMD check.
Which means they can use staffs as a 9th level caster with 14 in the ability score. A neat back-up trick considering wands are perfectly acceptable at this level.
By 20 this rogue maxes out UMD for 19th caster level and 24 in the ability score for staffs. OR with a cha item: 22th caster level and 27 in the mod.
Keep in mind all this is just the rogues back-up plan for when she can't/shouldn't get into melee and the party has found an extra staff or two.
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sure, there are classes that can do a SPECIFIC job of the rogue, maybe 2. But what about the other things the rogue does? Can a ranger use a wand? (without a dip?) Can the fighter sneak into an area, set traps/ambushes/steal needed mcguffin? I don't think so IIRC.
You must be new.
Yes, they all can.
Another thing is rogues don't have much of a reason to crank charisma so they may still not be the best even in class and putting every rank into it. Could you imagine a class that has UMD in class and is charisma based? Or a trait to make it work on another attribute, like intelligence?
Sorcerers can never take 10 but do eventually have so much cha it doesn't even matter.
Bards have to wait a LONG time before they can take ten.
Both of these classes have actual spells, so UMD brings less to them.
Another thing is rogues don't have much of a reason to crank charisma so they may still not be the best even in class and putting every rank into it. Could you imagine a class that has UMD in class and is charisma based? Or a trait to make it work on another attribute, like intelligence?Sorcerers can never take 10 but do eventually have so much cha it doesn't even matter.
Bards have to wait a LONG time before they can take ten.
Both of these classes have actual spells, so UMD brings less to them.
Not having use UMD isn't exactly a downside mind you, and not having to roll is a pretty big upside! Also crafting them yourself is snazzy.
Not so keen on the take 10 with UMD thing. Chance of failure always sucks, but at the same time you can get it so high you only fail on a one. UMD is special like that though, and the whole cranking it thing works for other skills. They tend to have soft and hard caps though, depending on the skill and campaign.
Everyone can use UMD.
Many do a lot better too.
UMD is not Rogue exclusive, in any way.
UMD is powerful tool for rogues and is the easiest way to get a viable range option.
Like feinting. Few other classes have much reason to invest in it or use it to the same effect.
Keep in mind, UMD is the back-up plan not the primary (flank) or even the secondary tactic (feint).
Another thing is rogues don't have much of a reason to crank charisma so they may still not be the best even in class and putting every rank into it. Could you imagine a class that has UMD in class and is charisma based? Or a trait to make it work on another attribute, like intelligence?Sorcerers can never take 10 but do eventually have so much cha it doesn't even matter.
Bards have to wait a LONG time before they can take ten.
Both of these classes have actual spells, so UMD brings less to them.
Not having use UMD isn't exactly a downside mind you, and not having to roll is a pretty big upside! Also crafting them yourself is snazzy.
Not so keen on the take 10 with UMD thing. Chance of failure always sucks, but at the same time you can get it so high you only fail on a one. UMD is special like that though, and the whole cranking it thing works for other skills. They tend to have soft and hard caps though, depending on the skill and campaign.
You don't actually auto-fail rolls of a 1.
Rolling a 1 AND failing for UMD does have some additional penalties. (You can actually make fighters pretty good at UMD, with 10 cha, a trait and full ranks by lvl 10 the fighter has a +20 and can always use wands)
Rogues can mimic class features like caster level with UMD. Like for staffs.
At 10 a rogue with 10 cha, skill focus UMD, and skill mastery (which all rogues should take skill mastery at 10 IMO) can take 29 on their UMD check.
Which means they can use staffs as a 9th level caster with 14 in the ability score. A neat back-up trick considering wands are perfectly acceptable at this level.
By 20 this rogue maxes out UMD for 19th caster level and 24 in the ability score for staffs. OR with a cha item: 22th caster level and 27 in the mod.
Keep in mind all this is just the rogues back-up plan for when she can't/shouldn't get into melee and the party has found an extra staff or two.
This is all great but when you remember that an Alchemist can pack everything the Rogue has, shy a few feats, can take a trait like Pragmatic Activator and Trap Finder, thus ending up with a higher UMD Modifier it doesn't seem all that special.
It's more accurate to say, Anyone can mimic class features like Caster Level with UMD. Like for staffs.
Then you remember that at 20th(Which is a ridiculous comparison mark) a Bard can take 10 on any skill check, is charisma based, and gets UMD as a Class Skill. So the Bard is likely to score much higher anyways.
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Keep in mind, UMD is the back-up plan not the primary (flank) or even the secondary tactic (feint).Goz mask, sniper goggles, obscuring mist.
You mean Goz mask, sniper goggles, smoke stick?
[For anyone unaware, both of those combos allow a rogue to range sneak attack a full attack. Ifrit rogue with firesight and smoke sticks is one of the more frightening range builds I've seen]
Rogues can mimic class features like caster level with UMD. Like for staffs.
At 10 a rogue with 10 cha, skill focus UMD, and skill mastery (which all rogues should take skill mastery at 10 IMO) can take 29 on their UMD check.
Which means they can use staffs as a 9th level caster with 14 in the ability score. A neat back-up trick considering wands are perfectly acceptable at this level.
By 20 this rogue maxes out UMD for 19th caster level and 24 in the ability score for staffs. OR with a cha item: 22th caster level and 27 in the mod.
Keep in mind all this is just the rogues back-up plan for when she can't/shouldn't get into melee and the party has found an extra staff or two.
This is all great but when you remember that an Alchemist can pack everything the Rogue has, shy a few feats, can take a trait like Pragmatic Activator and Trap Finder, thus ending up with a higher UMD Modifier it doesn't seem all that special.
It's more accurate to say, Anyone can mimic class features like Caster Level with UMD. Like for staffs.
Then you remember that at 20th(Which is a ridiculous comparison mark) a Bard can take 10 on any skill check, is charisma based, and gets UMD as a Class Skill. So the Bard is likely to score much higher anyways.
Idk why an alchemist would invest so much to be better at UMD... They have spells.
Bards spend most of their life without taking 10 on UMD. They also have spells which makes investing more than full ranks into UMD rather silly.
EDIT: The rogue is free to spend traits giving a +2 to most critical saves. Reincarnated(+2 vs fear and death effects), Deathtouch(+2 vs mind affecting)
I believe the comparison is to fighter because both are fully mundane classes with no expendable resources besides HP.
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"Rogues are uniquely good at UMD because everyone else is so good at having actual class features that they don't even need to bother putting ranks in UMD" - an actual argument people are making in Rogues' favor
"Rogues are uniquely good at UMD because everyone else is so good at having actual class features that they don't even need to bother putting ranks in UMD" - an actual argument people are making in Rogues' favor
Yep!
You have a problem with it?
Idk why an alchemist would invest so much to be better at UMD... They have spells.Bards spend most of their life without taking 10 on UMD. They also have spells which makes investing more than full ranks into UMD rather silly.
EDIT: The rogue is free to spend traits giving a +2 to most critical saves. Reincarnated(+2 vs fear and death effects), Deathtouch(+2 vs mind affecting)
So what you're saying is that UMD is a sterling option for the Rogue simply because other classes don't need it as much as he does? Isn't that kind of sad? That this class needs to rely on consumables that he has no guarantee of acquiring to function in the many many unfavorable conditions hes rendered relatively powerless in?
Also considering how you bring up that loot never seems to drop your way and your games don't let folks shop, what guarantee is there that useful UMD-able items will come your way?
I've actually ran a Rogue back in 3.5 with full ranks in UMD. I almost never actually got a scroll or wand to use it with. This was a game that ran all the way from 1st to 13th.
Also has anyone noticed that Extra Traits is looking better and better?
The rogue in our group is doing the most damage as of now with 4d6 of damage per sneak attack-plus has 2-handed fighting. Our fighter... well he's a gnome that doesn't seem to do much lol.
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My rogues laughs at these silly casters, fighters, and whoever else when he sneaks up on them while they sleep, coup de grace them, and walks away :3.
That aside. Rogues are plenty spiffy. IMO they are better than monks if nothing else at all.
(also, like marthkus I do wonder if TWF is a trap for rogues, I think a one handed fighter wielding a wand /throwing dagger or such in the off hand is just as good if not better, but people rage when you build non-TWF rogue builds for some reason)
My rogues laughs at these silly casters, fighters, and whoever else when he sneaks up on them while they sleep, coup de grace them, and walks away :3.This too, is done better by other classes.
Rogues are not the "sneakiest" of classes.
But Goblins are! WOO!
My rogues laughs at these silly casters, fighters, and whoever else when he sneaks up on them while they sleep, coup de grace them, and walks away :3.This too, is done better by other classes.
Rogues are not the "sneakiest" of classes.
Well they do take 10 on stealth checks sooner than most.
Idk why an alchemist would invest so much to be better at UMD... They have spells.
Bards spend most of their life without taking 10 on UMD. They also have spells which makes investing more than full ranks into UMD rather silly.
EDIT: The rogue is free to spend traits giving a +2 to most critical saves. Reincarnated(+2 vs fear and death effects), Deathtouch(+2 vs mind affecting)
So what you're saying is that UMD is a sterling option for the Rogue simply because other classes don't need it as much as he does? Isn't that kind of sad? That this class needs to rely on consumables that he has no guarantee of acquiring to function in the many many unfavorable conditions hes rendered relatively powerless in?
Also considering how you bring up that loot never seems to drop your way and your games don't let folks shop, what guarantee is there that useful UMD-able items will come your way?
I've actually ran a Rogue back in 3.5 with full ranks in UMD. I almost never actually got a scroll or wand to use it with. This was a game that ran all the way from 1st to 13th.
Also has anyone noticed that Extra Traits is looking better and better?
I'm going to draw the analogy back to feinting. NO-ONE else has a real reason to invest into feinting like a rogue. Yet when a rogue does not only does her combat potential rise, but she is boosting a social skill.
UMD is similar. It's not like sneak attack for feinting, but rogues do have skill mastery and a complete lack of casting ability, meaning they get FAR more out of UMD than anyone else (even other mundanes do to a glaring weakness for ranged options). Skill mastery means rogues have actual class features to back up this skill, making it a tactic that their class supports not just something a well built commoner can do just as well.
Vanish. First level invisibility spell that lasts long enough for a stealth check who needs to take 10 when you have +20?
Folks trying to avoid true seeing.
Taking 10 is relatively superficial after a certain point anyways. I don't know any creatures with a +40 Perception so it isn't like anything is beating a +60ish stealth score anyways.
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Well they do take 10 on stealth checks sooner than most.My rogues laughs at these silly casters, fighters, and whoever else when he sneaks up on them while they sleep, coup de grace them, and walks away :3.This too, is done better by other classes.
Rogues are not the "sneakiest" of classes.
When does that happen?