Goblin Squad Member
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@wexel daventry
and for me thats the thing. It adds another layer to the metagame that is interesting.
I see a guy, i see he is not flagged and his name is Bob. Unless iv got a database going I dont know anything about bob except that he is wearing T2 leather armor and two T2 short swords.
Now I have a choice. is this guy someone who is likely to have been around for a while and thus trained pretty well? Is the gear i cant see all T3? Are his real weapons T3 and he switches it out in a fight? Is he part of a large organization that will take revenge.
Basically the question is "is it safe to engage with this person"? Thats a meaningful choice it adds an element of risk to the engagement. Bandits and such will stop and evaluate if its worth attacking someone if you dont know for sure you can take them on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just had a tiny visual idea that could be good...could be utter horse manure. But when has that stopped me from letting anything escape my mind? Never!
1. Give us the option to decide what info we want hovering over people.
2. Have a trainable skill that allows a player to gain information about another character. Such as Tier etc. Higher skill...more info.
3. Have a popup-ui-thing that contains any info you have access to about the targeted character. This window could contain knowledge gained by above mentioned skill among standard information such as Name, Settlement, REP etc. Would look great if it could be combined with a banner of said settlement\company in the same window.
4. Have a trainable skill that allows a player to hide information about their character from others for a period of time. More skill...more info hidden.
5. Disguise would of course also hide these things and show false info instead. Preferably something you could edit yourself if you don't like what the game has suggested.
I think this would give the players that don't ALWAYS want to know everything about players, either for RP or personal challenge, a option for when they DO want to gain more info. And it doesn't need to be in your face cluttering up everything with different icons, titles, colors, flags etc on each character you meet. And a decent graphical UI is much faster analyzed than a bunch of text.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. Have a trainable skill that allows a player to gain information about another character.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about Knowledge skills, and the one thing I keep coming back to is that the knowledge/information gained should only be actionable to the character who received it. In other words, I think it's important that this information not be the kind that can be shared over TeamSpeak with the rest of your group to give them all an advantage against the inspected character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It might make a character stand out from the crowd if he has no info showing.
Here's a thought: just as spies in the movies change passports maybe we can craft a fictive alter-ego persona to wear at critical moments?
Perhaps the Disguise skill can be used for something like that.
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I just had a tiny visual idea that could be good...could be utter horse manure. But when has that stopped me from letting anything escape my mind? Never!
1. Give us the option to decide what info we want hovering over people.
2. Have a trainable skill that allows a player to gain information about another character. Such as Tier etc. Higher skill...more info.
3. Have a popup-ui-thing that contains any info you have access to about the targeted character. This window could contain knowledge gained by above mentioned skill among standard information such as Name, Settlement, REP etc. Would look great if it could be combined with a banner of said settlement\company in the same window.
4. Have a trainable skill that allows a player to hide information about their character from others for a period of time. More skill...more info hidden.
5. Disguise would of course also hide these things and show false info instead. Preferably something you could edit yourself if you don't like what the game has suggested.
I think this would give the players that don't ALWAYS want to know everything about players, either for RP or personal challenge, a option for when they DO want to gain more info. And it doesn't need to be in your face cluttering up everything with different icons, titles, colors, flags etc on each character you meet. And a decent graphical UI is much faster analyzed than a bunch of text.
Such a skill would become almost mandatory for PVP. I remain arguing for extremely limited information. I would like to only see
a) flagged state (hostile,attacker) etc
b) Status to your organization (red,grey,blue)
c) Armor and weapons types
d) A general impression of the quality of the equipment but not the keywords. This needs only be conveyed by visual style.
Absolutely no information about keywords, skills trained or slotted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Steelwing, did you leave name out intentionally? Seems like an important piece in my opinion. :)
Other than that, and maybe a pop-up to include company and settlement (because it's nice to know why you're hostile to someone, but not always necessary, and that could lead to clutter on a nameplate), I'd agree.
@Steelwing, did you leave name out intentionally? Seems like an important piece in my opinion. :)
Other than that, and maybe a pop-up to include company and settlement (because it's nice to know why you're hostile to someone, but not always necessary, and that could lead to clutter on a nameplate), I'd agree.
I didn't mention them because I assume name and affiliation will be a no brainer to be up there. I have yet to see an mmo where you don't see either though admittedly I haven't played them all by a long way so someone may indeed have an example
Should specialattacksmoves (ie, those that require trained feats, specific keywords, or both) be only visually apparent or identified in combat logs? (ie, "Anchor cleaves Boatboy for 23 damage.")
All my information concerns focus upon the pre combat phase. I want to see the risk come back into PVP and information lack is a good way of doing that. I really detest the Eve situation where you know exactly who has won or lost before any small squad engagement because you know exactly what equipment your enemy has.
It mere leads people to always attack when they can win and always run when they are going to lose. Both rational responses but it would be much nicer if each and every engagement had a great degree of uncertainty of the "I think I can beat him but...." variety.
Once combat is joined being able to check out things in the combat log is nice to have but it is information that you get too late to make a decision. You could certainly argue you will know next time you meet that character but they may well be wearing different equipment with different keywords and have different skills slotted.
Indeed I suspect it likely that competent PVP'ers will ring the changes between a set of different builds on a regular basis just to ensure their opponents can never be sure what they are facing
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should specialattacksmoves (ie, those that require trained feats, specific keywords, or both) be only visually apparent or identified in combat logs? (ie, "Anchor cleaves Boatboy for 23 damage.")All my information concerns focus upon the pre combat phase. I want to see the risk come back into PVP and information lack is a good way of doing that. I really detest the Eve situation where you know exactly who has won or lost before any small squad engagement because you know exactly what equipment your enemy has.
It mere leads people to always attack when they can win and always run when they are going to lose. Both rational responses but it would be much nicer if each and every engagement had a great degree of uncertainty of the "I think I can beat him but...." variety.
Once combat is joined being able to check out things in the combat log is nice to have but it is information that you get too late to make a decision. You could certainly argue you will know next time you meet that character but they may well be wearing different equipment with different keywords and have different skills slotted.
Indeed I suspect it likely that competent PVP'ers will ring the changes between a set of different builds on a regular basis just to ensure their opponents can never be sure what they are facing
I agree that this would be quite a bit of fun added to PVP, the element of mystery and chance not based completely off skill leaving some uncertainty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see that name and reputation should be viewable by all, without a mouse over. The Devs have said that you will be able to roughly tell what gear someone has. This of course would require a player memorized various armor and weapon types visually.
All other information, including affiliations, should only be public if the player chooses for his information to be public.
As for meta game communications are concerned, there is no way to prevent that. If you feel it puts you at a disadvantage, use it yourself. There is nothing else you can do about that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. Have a trainable skill that allows a player to gain information about another character.I've spent a lot of time thinking about Knowledge skills, and the one thing I keep coming back to is that the knowledge/information gained should only be actionable to the character who received it. In other words, I think it's important that this information not be the kind that can be shared over TeamSpeak with the rest of your group to give them all an advantage against the inspected character.
I think that the use of TS sharing etc, will not be avoidable without removing useful features of the game from most players.
That sounds like what Jaybrand was suggesting in point 5.
You are spot on ;)
Such a skill would become almost mandatory for PVP. I remain arguing for extremely limited information. I would like to only see
a) flagged state (hostile,attacker) etc
b) Status to your organization (red,grey,blue)
c) Armor and weapons types
d) A general impression of the quality of the equipment but not the keywords. This needs only be conveyed by visual style.Absolutely no information about keywords, skills trained or slotted.
Once combat is joined being able to check out things in the combat log is nice to have but it is information that you get too late to make a decision. You could certainly argue you will know next time you meet that character but they may well be wearing different equipment with different keywords and have different skills slotted.
I agree with you on your sentiment. There is no good reason why a character would be able to know the keywords on your equipment.
And TMI would as stated remove much of the risk involved, and I think that those of lesser strength would be the one to pay for it.I also think that a combat log should describe the attacks used...I would think of it in terms of my character actually paying attention during the fight and learning from it. So that he could be more prepared the next time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather only the flagged state be visible unless the character is acquainted with your character. The game will know who they are and will tally their behavior. If they are worthy of a death curse their name will be available. But unless you know me you wouldn't know my name nor would I know yours. I would not know your affiliations and factions. I could see from your appearance whether you were wearing leather, cloth or metal armor, and perhaps estimate its quality, but not by consulting the specs displayed in the atmosphere around you.
I certainly wouldn't see that you are blue or red or grey unless those were the dyes in your standard or enamels on your shield.
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Goblin Squad Member
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d) A general impression of the quality of the equipment but not the keywords.
It seems like this would give an unfair advantage to folks who were willing to use third-party software to analyze the results of attacks in order to extrapolate which keywords were present on the items. I'd much rather they simply share the information directly, which seems to be in line with what Stephen Cheney said:
Obfuscating information is extremely prone to failure...
... if we attempt to hide information from the players, it will be in the interests of technically-minded players to try to reveal it through whatever clues we have to provide...
So instead, we're erring on the side of making as much information available as we can without being overwhelming (and leaving the door open to provide even more info than that if we can figure out a good way to make it optional, especially if modders have already gotten at it and been using it).
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d) A general impression of the quality of the equipment but not the keywords.It seems like this would give an unfair advantage to folks who were willing to use third-party software to analyze the results of attacks in order to extrapolate which keywords were present on the items. I'd much rather they simply share the information directly, which seems to be in line with what Stephen Cheney said:
Obfuscating information is extremely prone to failure...
... if we attempt to hide information from the players, it will be in the interests of technically-minded players to try to reveal it through whatever clues we have to provide...
So instead, we're erring on the side of making as much information available as we can without being overwhelming (and leaving the door open to provide even more info than that if we can figure out a good way to make it optional, especially if modders have already gotten at it and been using it).
Arguing for the total information up front is arguing for risk free pvp as the attacker will always know they can beat you otherwise they will not attack.
What they had on them last fight does not relate necessarily to what they have on them the next time you meet them. They may for all you know have completely different skills slotted.
While you may believe this not to be the case it will still give a certain amount of uncertainty when initiating PVP.
Do you really want PVP to be risk free when you only get attacked by those that know they can beat you because that is what you are asking for. Fine by me if you want the game to be that way I can still play it perfectly well and it will just mean I have a much higher kill to death ratio.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't it be nice to have a game--someday, somewhere, some way--that allowed disguising the quality of your equipment, making one essentially a walking Q-ship? Something as simple as a cloak wrapped around yourself might work in some instances, but it'd also be fun to have an armourer be able to make armour that looks like complete crap while being top-of-the-line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm with Steelwing on this one. Though a third-party software can analyze your opponent after X seconds of combat and tell you what that person is using, that information will likely come too late to be particularly useful; if you are paying attention to the combat it should be obvious that he has a very strong sword when he does more damage to you, he has a keyword to resist bludgeoning when your mace attacks don't do as much damage, etc. Basically, if it'll let you know whether or not you should fight him that doesn't help you once you're already fighting him for, say, 10 seconds. By that point someone without the 3rd party program would be able to analyze the situation, see who has the advantage in the fight, and either press the attack or retreat as appropriate. The extra details don't really help in the heat of the moment, only when analyzing and planning an attack (or planning to run away from them) before the fight.
Do you really want PVP to be risk free...Do you really think you're justified in assuming I do?
Personally, I tend to believe that player skill will make a difference, but if you're convinced it's all about the gear, don't let me get in your way.
Because every other mmo out there (with the possible exception of some of the player aiming ones) aren't about gear with player skill coming a pretty poor second.
Given this game is going to be a tab target autoface game then player skill is going to be pretty minor compared to build and gear. Just like Eve it will be how you fit your ship that wins fights.
If you want to back up your thoughts can you name even one mmo which is tab target and autofacing that of the four things Gear,spec,class and player skill that the skill is the most important in determining an outcome?
You can eliminate right now Daoc, lotro, Wow, TSW, AoC, Aion, SwTor,War, Eve,Perpetuum because if you suggest any of those I won't even bother answering you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given this game is going to be a tab target autoface game then player skill is going to be pretty minor compared to build and gear.
I'm sure you'll understand if I'm not swayed by your assertions.
If you want to back up your thoughts can you name even one mmo which is tab target and autofacing that of the four things Gear,spec,class and player skill that the skill is the most important in determining an outcome?
You mean back up my thoughts that player skill will make a difference? Or your twisted version where you act as if I said player skill will be "the most important"?
Player skill will make a difference. Gear will make a difference. Neither will pre-determine the outcome.
But if it makes you feel better, I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong about whether or not keyword information on gear is something the devs feel like making freely available. It occurs to me that my argument about why it might could just as easily be applied to character Skills and Slotted Abilities. I don't know, the devs have surprised me several times and usually in ways that make sense to me once I think about them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Depends how you evaluate 'outcome', really. Strictly K/D ratio, apparently, is Steelwing's strict measure but that is only one of several. Others will measure 'W/L' where 'winning' may not so narrowly hinge on combat but more broadly and deeply on their personal enjoyment of the whole game.
Given this game is going to be a tab target autoface game then player skill is going to be pretty minor compared to build and gear.I'm sure you'll understand if I'm not swayed by your assertions.
If you want to back up your thoughts can you name even one mmo which is tab target and autofacing that of the four things Gear,spec,class and player skill that the skill is the most important in determining an outcome?You mean back up my thoughts that player skill will make a difference? Or your twisted version where you act as if I said player skill will be "the most important"?
Player skill will make a difference. Gear will make a difference. Neither will pre-determine the outcome.
But if it makes you feel better, I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong about whether or not keyword information on gear is something the devs feel like making freely available. It occurs to me that my argument about why it might could just as easily be applied to character Skills and Slotted Abilities. I don't know, the devs have surprised me several times and usually in ways that make sense to me once I think about them.
I took your assertion as you meant it. Your assertion was that a better geared player would be beatable by a player that is better skilled. That was your meaning as I am sure any reasonable person reading it would interpret it.
On my side I have
The evidence provided by every other MMO of this type
Nightdrifters analaysis of gear differentials in combat
On your side is your assertion that player skill will be important enough to sway the battle against the better geared player.
Frankly not going to happen unless the player is totally incompetent and has bodged his build completely
"Player skill making a difference" isn't the absolute you're making it out to be Steelwind.
Your tone needs some work too.
My assertion which he responded too was that if you know your opponents gear down to the last keyword then you already know pretty much who has won the fight in advance.
This is pretty much the case in Eve with the following result
a) I am going to win....I attack
b) We are evenly matched and either side could win (the only one where player skill comes into it) avoid each other and politely go on our way
c) I am going to lose .......run away
His statement I can therefore only take to be an assertion that the outcome of either a) or c) can be altered by player skill. Where exactly do you believe I have misinterpreted his meaning?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My assertion which he responded too was that if you know your opponents gear down to the last keyword then you already know who has won the fight in advance.
The assertion that I actually responded to was your assertion that Gear would 100% pre-determine the outcome.
Arguing for the total information up front is arguing for risk free pvp as the attacker will know they can beat you otherwise they will not attack.
... if you're convinced it's all about the gear..
You've qualified your statement since. It's hard to defend absolute statements, isn't it?
My assertion which he responded too was that if you know your opponents gear down to the last keyword then you already know who has won the fight in advance.The assertion that I actually responded to was your assertion that Gear would 100% pre-determine the outcome.
Arguing for the total information up front is arguing for risk free pvp as the attacker will know they can beat you otherwise they will not attack.... if you're convinced it's all about the gear..You've qualified your statement since. It's hard to defend absolute statements, isn't it?
I have changed nothing about my statement.
In a world of up front information there will be always targets that you can inspect and know that you can beat. If you do not know you can definitely beat them you do not attack them you go off and find a target which you are sure you can beat. No change to what I said that you bolded.
I prefer an environment where there is no such thing as a sure fight that way you don't have the eve situation where you only fight when you know you can win. The situation of knowing you will win due to gear differences is never going to be compensated for by player skill.
In a game like this it is always going to be the following case
The winner is determined by gear differential until that differential gets low enough that build imbalance becomes the determining fact. Only when build imbalance and gear differential become small values does player skill come into the equation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... that way you don't have the eve situation where you only fight when you know you can win.
I think I understand that this is your primary concern. I think, though, that EVE is not a good basis for comparison. Players attack other players in EVE far more randomly than they're likely to in PFO. In PFO, I think it will be far more likely for players to be attacking in groups, and to be attacking structures more than simply attacking other players. In such an environment, knowing the gear and keywords of a particular opponent isn't likely to be as important because you're unlikely to be fighting that player one-on-one.
At least, that's my perspective.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ill have to disagree. Sure in Eve your ship fittings mean a lot. In fact they are the determining factor in Large Scale battles.
However; in solo or small gang fights, fittings are only a part of the equation. Player skill plays a big role. Many times I have won fights I shouldnt have because of tactics and skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a game like this it is always going to be the following case
The winner is determined by gear differential until that differential gets low enough that build imbalance becomes the determining fact. Only when build imbalance and gear differential become small values does player skill come into the equation.
There you go again :)
From my perspective, I think it's just as likely that your scenario will only play out the way you describe when the player skill differential is already a small value.
I've played with players of radically different player skill levels. It's easy for me to imagine someone who just makes bad choices about which abilities to use when, or to imagine someone who is particularly intuitive and is able to adapt to his opponent's tactics more quickly - to get inside his opponent's OODA loop, so to speak.
Ill have to disagree. Sure in Eve your ship fittings mean a lot. In fact they are the determining factor in Large Scale battles.
However; in solo or small gang fights, fittings are only a part of the equation. Player skill plays a big role. Many times I have won fights I shouldnt have because of tactics and skill.
The only fights I have lost after checking out a ships fittings and thinking I can win this are when they have had off grid boosters in play. It takes a lot to lose a fight you should win frankly in Eve if you are even moderately competent.
In a game like this it is always going to be the following case
The winner is determined by gear differential until that differential gets low enough that build imbalance becomes the determining fact. Only when build imbalance and gear differential become small values does player skill come into the equation.
There you go again :)
From my perspective, I think it's just as likely that your scenario will only play out the way you describe when the player skill differential is already a small value.
I've played with players of radically different player skill levels. It's easy for me to imagine someone who just makes bad choices about which abilities to use when, or to imagine someone who is particularly intuitive and is able to adapt to his opponent's tactics more quickly - to get inside his opponent's OODA loop, so to speak.
I have been assuming moderately competent opponents. If you were to take that most know of MMO's as an example and give two players identical characters and put one in the best purples whatever that is now and the other in the best blues. How many times do you think the most skilful player is going to win? I would be very surprised if it is anywhere near even 1 time in 10
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have been assuming moderately competent opponents. If you were to take that most know of MMO's as an example and give two players identical characters and put one in the best purples whatever that is now and the other in the best blues. How many times do you think the most skilful player is going to win? I would be very surprised if it is anywhere near even 1 time in 10
That's an awful lot of qualifiers you have to put up for your statement to make sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon is assuming all rational actors. But betas with their emotional drive to demonstrate more points than others frequently act irrationally to quench that desire. Dudes that get run out of EVE that come to PO with something to prove to themselves and seeking the acknowledgement of greatness from others based on meta point totals, for example.
From my experiences I think Nihimon's perspective is representative of his approach to the game but not the entire spectrum I anticipate.
In PFO, I think it will be far more likely for players to be attacking in groups
That's exactly like EVE actually.
and to be attacking structures more than simply attacking other players
Defender group vs. Attacker group combat is corollary to any siege engine vs. structure situation, so the aggregate gear and keywords of one side compared to the other is still very relevant. And if you see an outlier keyword in the enemy group, hey, focus fire baby.
Will some keywords be related to formation combat command skills?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PFO, I think it will be far more likely for players to be attacking in groupsThat's exactly like EVE actually.
and to be attacking structures more than simply attacking other playersDefender group vs. Attacker group combat is corollary to any siege engine vs. structure situation...
The reason I made those points is because it sounded like Steelwing was describing one-on-one combat situations.
If you do not know you can definitely beat them you do not attack them you go off and find a target which you are sure you can beat.
That sounds like a hunter looking for prey. I can't imagine an attacking army deciding not to attack a defending Settlement - and then going off looking for another Settlement to attack - simply because the odds aren't in their favor based on an analysis of some keywords on someone's gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have been assuming moderately competent opponents. If you were to take that most know of MMO's as an example and give two players identical characters and put one in the best purples whatever that is now and the other in the best blues. How many times do you think the most skilful player is going to win? I would be very surprised if it is anywhere near even 1 time in 10That's an awful lot of qualifiers you have to put up for your statement to make sense.
Once. I was a Rank 11 troll hunter in WoW pvp (back when those words even meant anything but basically top 10%) on a 75% Alliance server, they were in T1 and T2 purples while I had WSG blues and good luck even getting a 1-on-1 fight. But exactly ONE time I got a duel with a T2 + Ashkandi warrior for control of the Blacksmith and tactically outmaneuvered him and gradually overcame the gear math to win.
And I remember it so clearly because 98% of the rest of the time was so much more miserable than it had to be because of the gear differences between Alliance and Horde on the server. Normally the gear math at least causes so much delay the opponent can get reinforced. Combat over a geographic point like POI or settlement gates is likely a similar situation.
I've called out Steelwing before when I thought he deserved it, but however he phrases it this point is a valid one.
In PFO, I think it will be far more likely for players to be attacking in groupsThat's exactly like EVE actually.
and to be attacking structures more than simply attacking other playersDefender group vs. Attacker group combat is corollary to any siege engine vs. structure situation...The reason I made those points is because it sounded like Steelwing was describing one-on-one combat situations.
If you do not know you can definitely beat them you do not attack them you go off and find a target which you are sure you can beat.That sounds like a hunter looking for prey. I can't imagine an attacking army deciding not to attack a defending Settlement - and then going off looking for another Settlement to attack - simply because the odds aren't in their favor based on an analysis of some keywords on someone's gear.
I was describing solo or small group encounters. Large scale encounters are a whole different kettle of fish. There will undoubtedly be groups patrolling hexes looking for victims in PfO.
The point remains however that the less information the more uncertainty to any engagement and therefore the more risk attached to the encounter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once. I was a Rank 11 troll hunter in WoW pvp...
I don't think there's any question at all that Level and Gear make a much greater difference in WoW PvP than they will in PFO.
I've called out Steelwing before when I thought he deserved it, but however he phrases it this point is a valid one.
Which point? That gear will always define the outcome? Or that gear will often define the outcome? Because I don't have any objection to the second point, either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've called out Steelwing before when I thought he deserved it, but however he phrases it this point is a valid one.Which point? That gear will always define the outcome? Or that gear will often define the outcome? Because I don't have any objection to the second point, either.
I was commenting on the statement in the context of "these kinds of games" not in the context of only WoW.
But don't worry too much, Proxy, my post was just an elaborate ruse to make Nihimon favorite one of my posts. His favorites go for at least 3 TESO beta accounts on the black market these days.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would really like for there to be a great deal of uncertainty about your potential opponent's gear (basically just visual guesses about class and tier level) both for in-character realism and ooc fun if there were a way that hooligans couldn't code a work-around. I leave it to the programming experts if that's possible.
If it isn't, I think second best is making the work-around moot and each player can decide for themselves how much of that information they want to utilize.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would really like for there to be a great deal of uncertainty about your potential opponent's gear (basically just visual guesses about class and tier level) both for in-character realism and ooc fun if there were a way that hooligans couldn't code a work-around. I leave it to the programming experts if that's possible.
If it isn't, I think second best is making the work-around moot and each player can decide for themselves how much of that information they want to utilize.
100% agree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once. I was a Rank 11 troll hunter in WoW pvp...I don't think there's any question at all that Level and Gear make a much greater difference in WoW PvP than they will in PFO.
Level differences are undoubtedly a much bigger factor in WoW, but in my example those were equal so not a variable in the power differences.
I contend that the end result in power from what we've heard about the affects of major keywords, quantities of major and minor keywords and how that affects skill actuation, taking the better of three attack rolls, and the like is analogous to WoW's level 60 blue and two epic tiers.
I would have used an example from EVE but I couldn't remember a single 1-on-1 fight in three years. Group aggregates echo the principle though.