Some of nightly thoughts... (Now with posts gone I don't remember of them already posted and which are new :/)
Name: Is Dreamscarred Press dead set on using the term Incarna? Personally I would like to drop it and go with another term already involved in this project and refer to it as Essence - as a primal energy of creation unpolarised yet into positive energy, negative energy or elements.
Essence cap: This would require playetsting, but would it be game breaking increasing general essence cap by 1 so characters of 1st-5th level could invest up to 2 points into single feat/veil/item, 6th-11th would have capacity of 3, 12th-17th would have cap of 4 and 18th+ would have cap of 5 points? This would be important at early level, especially for characters that aren't veilweavers, because otherwise the investment process would be non-existent for them... 5th level character with three incarna feats would have three essence points and three feats with capacity of 1 point each - no room for shifting essence between different subjects.
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So, I've had some time to ruminate, turn my mind to other things, and come back with a fresh perspective. Vizier is not getting a built-in companion (though there will be a class or archetype that does).
Some people really like the Vizier, others don't see the connection between the fluff and the crunch, so while the core chassis isn't going anywhere, next week's update is going to include a lot of small adjustments to tie the premise and mechanics more tightly together. I'm evaluating the Essence system, but I think that raising low level capacities is going to require a complete reworking of the balance throughout the entire system, which is not something I'm interested in considering. I do have some plans to make the subsystem more dynamic for non-veilweaver classes who want more of that aspect though.
Another minor thought: I think that essence pool and process of investing essence points should be described as a separate feature from veilweaving - called Essence Pool or Essence Manipulation or something like that.
Also, lots of veils show great idea but I think require more work on their mechanical side to be worthwhile, especially their basic effect - e.g. circlet of brass basic effect does not seems to be very useful until the vizier binds the veil to head chakra... and the combination of both ranged touch attack and a saving throw for half seems to be needless complication for ability that will be used every round.
Name: Is Dreamscarred Press dead set on using the term Incarna? Personally I would like to drop it and go with another term already involved in this project and refer to it as Essence - as a primal energy of creation unpolarised yet into positive energy, negative energy or elements.
I could definitely get behind this.
Arcane Imbuement sounds very, well, arcane caster-ish. I wondered about possible other names for this feature - "chakra affinity" or "chakra attunement" maybe? I thought about naming similar ability "chakra unlocking" or "chakra awakening" for a chakra & ki based mystic class that I was considering. EDIT: Another option was "chakra opening" or variation on some of the names above in reverse order: open chakra, unlock chakra, awaken chakra, etc.
I thought about possibility of class-specific chakras, so every veilweaving class (and those who opened chakras with feats) could have access to ten chakaras and each veilweaving class would also get one chakra unique to that class (I think armor for daevic, rings for vizier and eyes for guru - I considered the other way, but rings suit vizier more than guru).
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I like the idea of class specific chakras.... Let me toy around with that a bit and see what it looks like.
Quick note on Circlet of Brass: There are several Veils that are designed more for supporting other Veils or supporting multi-class characters or feats. Circlet of Brass, for example, is going to be more useful for a Sorcerer who has multiclassed or taken the Shape Veil feat, or a Vizier who is using it to buff Gorget of the Wyrm (at least before its bind is unlocked). That's part of the design goal of making the subsystem easy to acces with existing characters, or being readily accessible to players who want to dip a toe without committing to a veilweaving class. I think you're right about it only needing a touch attack or save though, so the save will probably be removed.
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I wasn't going to be the first guy to say it, but yeah, I'm strongly behind a name-change. It's really uncomfortably close to the 3.5e product both in structure and sound.
I'd avoid "Magic of" and "Incarn*".
Might be an idea to brand in on the "Path of War" formatting and do a "Path of X" where X is something cool. Maybe "Mana" or something.
But if it's on the table, I'd rethink the title.
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Y'know. Latin "vitae essentia" is "life essence"... Just saying.
The Secret Tome of Vitae Essentia has a certain ring to it.
I like
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Magic of Incarna is a cookbook!
I joke, but it does remind me of the commercials for chain restaurants with the Awesome Voice-over Guy (tm) talking about steaks (as in carne asada).
Incarnum took a root concept and gave it an appropriate sounding (latin-ish) fantasy name. The original Magic of Incarnum got the point across well enough. Incarna doesn't quite have the same ring.
Love the ideas being discussed.
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There's a number of related fields we're talking about expanding into if we get enough support for this project (Psicarna anyone?), but this thing has to get off the ground first
Might truenaming or shadow magic be among those fields?
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If you're going to retain chakras as the terminology, and in general using a Middle Eastern/India theme, why not prana? Prana -- life force -- flows from chakra to chakra through channels called nadiis.
The name is not set in stone, but at this point we would rather focus on the playtesting of the material.
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I agree that prana sounds good.
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***
2. There was no handy table that summarized what the various melds could do. That would have been immeasurably helpful. You *could* do something about that, though! :-)
Could you elaborate on this a bit? Currently the playtest document has a table detailing the Veils by slot with a brief summation of what they do, but this is something contained in Magic of Incarnum as well. Do you just want a field added detailing the bind abilities, or is there something more you're looking for?
I think the bind abilities is what he's really looking for. It was a problem of mine when I started thinking about trying to open and use Magic of Incarnum.
2. There was no handy table that summarized what the various melds could do. That would have been immeasurably helpful. You *could* do something about that, though! :-)
I'm confused. Pages 54, 55 Table 4-1 "Incarnate Soulmelds" and page 56 Table 4-2 "Soulborn Soulmelds" along with page 58 Table 4-3 "Totemist Soulmelds" seems to me to be exactly that.
Admittedly those tables only contain the basic effect, not chakra bind effects, but that would be a lot bigger I'd think.
Or are you looking for something different?
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So, some quick notes on things to look out for over the course of the next week or two:
We're still hammering out Arcane Imbuement, both for maximum clarity, and effectiveness. The bonuses are likely going to be re-aligned a bit to more closely reflect the idea of cunning manipulator or sage advisor, bringing more synergy to the implied fluff and actual mechanics.
The Vizier's Path abilities are getting some revamps. Transfer the Essence is getting bumped up to become available at lower levels that more closely align with the common levels of play, and will have slightly modified progressions.
Increased Essence Capacity is going to have its progression changed so that it doesn't trigger on levels where you'll be already gaining increased Essence capacity. This'll mean that the Vizier doesn't experience the massive power boost he does at 12th level and instead follows a more linear progression.
Some revisions to the Veil list: One of the design goals was to ensure that there was more bleed over between the Veil lists to accomodate the widest variety of playstyles and class/Veil combinations possible. At the moment though, I think that that is causing a few issues with playtesting, Some of the Veils which are really the primary territory of other classes (like Horns of the Minotaur, which is really a Daevic Veil I felt could be accessed by the Vizier) are making it difficult to evaluate balance between the various Veils. A Daevic, whose Full BAB and emphasis on melee combat means that an additional Natural Attack is going to be an exponential power boost, is getting way more from the Veil, while man people are looking at it and going "Why would I take that when XYZ is available?" Because of that, I'm going to be stripping the bleed over Veils out of the document to keep the focus on how well the Vizier's main abilities stack up to want he should be doing most of the time. This may help clarify ideas for builds and re-emphasize the intended direction of the class. I'll reintroduce the bleed over Veils as their main corresponding material is introduced. The Vizier and other classes will still end up with access to Veils that allow them to explore outside of their primary roles, but it'll be easier to playtest and determine balance of the class' primary intended abilities.
We have taken the various concerns related to the name under advisement. While we've been walking a careful line to ensure we don't trip over into copyright territory, I'm worried that the name is becoming a distraction to the actual playtesting and system. I'll ask that you let us worry about it, and trust the Dreamscarred team to make the right decision as regards naming conventions for the subsystem and its components going forward.
On another note:
I would love some more playtest feedback on the class! While theorycraft and number-crunching are a great way to detect large flaws or inconsistencies within the material, there are a lot of factors that need real table-time to properly evaluate: Comparative value of non-limited boosts and abilities, effect of class versatility (or lack thereof if that proves to be the case), and ability to "play nice" with a group. Does the recharge time of Ditchdigger's Armlets or or Gorget of the Wyrm mean that it's basically a 1/per encounter ability? Are certain effects proving to drastically change the basic assumptions of popular modules or APs?
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I think the bind abilities is what he's really looking for. It was a problem of mine when I started thinking about trying to open and use Magic of Incarnum.
I'll consider adding in the bind effects to the table, BUT that is a seriously big table to try and squeeze into a document. Let me look at a couple different layouts and see if I can come up with something that'll give you that information without looking seriously ugly or adding 5 extra pages to the document(s).
I cannot playtest directly because I have no games to play these in, but I might be able to build and let others compare to other builds.
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I'll consider adding in the bind effects to the table, BUT that is a seriously big table to try and squeeze into a document. Let me look at a couple different layouts and see if I can come up with something that'll give you that information without looking seriously ugly or adding 5 extra pages to the document(s).
Try this:
Remove the Slot column. Put an apex letter near the name of the veil.Belt= Be
Body = Bo
Chest = Ch
Hand= Ha
Head= He
Feet= Ft
Neck= Ne
Shoulders = Sh
Wrists = Wr
Example:
Forcestrike Knuckles^Ha | Dae/Viz | Deal force damage with unarmed strike or ranged attacks | Increase die of force damage
Gorget of the wyrm^Ne, Sh | Viz | Gain breath weapon attack | Improved breath weapon or Wings
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Changelog:
Avatar of Light updated to scale better through low levels.
Arcane Imbuement changed to Essence Bond to more accurately reflect the Vizier's power source and abilities. Numerous small changes made to granted bonuses, and several bonuses now granted as auras to emphasize the Vizier's nature as an advisor and a manipulator of Essence.
Mystic Bond changed to Mystic Attunement and level progression changed to 1st level and every 4 levels thereafter.
Veilshifting ability updated to provide more uses and be available starting at 3rd level.
Improved Essence Capacity acquired at 3rd, llth, and 19th level, allowing earlier access and distributing bonuses a little more evenly.
Constitution requirements removed from Veilweaving, reducing MAD.
Transfer the Essence now available from 1st level for characters who choose Path of the Crafter.
Path of the Seer updated to allow inherent sharing of all Teamwork feats granted by the ability with affected allies, and clarified that allies do not need to meet prerequisites of feats granted this way.
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Could you elaborate on this a bit? Currently the playtest document has a table detailing the Veils by slot with a brief summation of what they do, but this is something contained in Magic of Incarnum as well. Do you just want a field added detailing the bind abilities, or is there something more you're looking for?***
2. There was no handy table that summarized what the various melds could do. That would have been immeasurably helpful. You *could* do something about that, though! :-)Sure!
Some sort of summary of the essence and bind effects, as well as the primary effect would be useful. Otherwise you have to flip through the book or create your own file to see what the other effects are.
I'm working on updating the tables right now to include a description of the bind effects. I'll also be notating the Veils to indicate what level their binds kick in at to make class evaluation a little bit easier for everyone. I'm aiming to have the new tables in place by the end of the week.
Thank you for your input!
Is it intentional that vizier does not get Use Magic Device skill?
Also, I think that vizier could have shield (but not tower shield) proficiency. Or at least light shield proficiency. Having proficiency in bucklers and not regular shields seems strange - I do not recall any class that would get buckler proficiency alone.
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Is it intentional that vizier does not get Use Magic Device skill?
Also, I think that vizier could have shield (but not tower shield) proficiency. Or at least light shield proficiency. Having proficiency in bucklers and not regular shields seems strange - I do not recall any class that would get buckler proficiency alone.
Funny story there, I was positive that I'd seen another class who gained just buckler proficiency. Turns out I was thinking of the Warlord from the PoW project :P
I'll re-evaluate that. I've honestly been considering removing even the bucklers given the Vizier's other defensive options.I took away UMD from the Vizier for a couple of reasons:
1) He's already got 4+Int skills and is an INT-based class, meaning he's got some skill resource to burn. UMD is just a trait away if he really wants it.
2) The majority of items he would want UMD for he can access by alternate means: i.e investment with Eldritch Insight. If he wants to "UMD" wands, he invests Essence and that does it for him. It doesn't make sense to give him built in means to circumvent his own class features.
3) Lots of classes already get UMD, so I thought Eldritch Insight was a better way to represent his ability to manipulate magic items without stepping on anyone else's toes.
I agree that buckler proficiency could be dropped at all.
First impression about new changes - I think that bonding with items felt more in place on odd levels and path abilities on even (mostly because at the moment paths grant bonus feats at odd levels making the single class character to gain feats in big bursts on odd levels instead of spread between levels).
That's only a first impression, though, actual playtest could show it to be absolutely ok.
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First impression about new changes - I think that bonding with items felt more in place on odd levels and path abilities on even (mostly because at the moment paths grant bonus feats at odd levels making the single class character to gain feats in big bursts on odd levels instead of spread between levels).
That's only a first impression, though, actual playtest could show it to be absolutely ok.
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm going to let it run a bit and give people some time to play with the new layout before I make any more significant changes (we've only been running a week and the class has changed a lot). I think the overlap in feat acquisition between character progression and path progression shouldn't be an issue, but we'll see how it plays out.I suspect as people get more time to playtest the results are going to indicate that a few things need to be toned down, but a lot of the initial response was that the class felt too weak and wasn't performing up to snuff, so I've tried to make some adjustments there and make the class better at doing what it does right out of the gate, instead of you waiting until 5th level when you've finally got room for all of the Veils to fulfill your character concept.
I'm hoping to be able to actually run a couple 20th-level viziers at my group Saturday. That should get some decent playtest data.
Yes Marco, I mean your group. Yes, you can act surprised. <Grin>
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Also, posted in another thread but reposted here as an FYI:
I'm going to spend a little time on normalization of the Veils to make the binds a little less "Magic of Incarnum" and a little more "logical progression". That being said there are going to be some binds that have base abilities which seem a little bit better than others, but the goal is to ensure that you have all the resources to make a well-rounded character. Scaling skill bonuses probably aren't quite as cool as defensive or offensive options, but they're necessary and important to a lot of campaigns.
I think the base Essence system scales well as is, so I probably won't make any changes to it unless there's a really solid reason to.
The class itself probably won't see any more major changes for at least the next week or so to give players time to get some solid playtesting in without everything changing overnight on them, but watch for small adjustments: Gorget of the Wyrm's flight will scale better based on Essence investment, and I'll try to make every ability share the scaling nature of the system. "Always on" abilities like Stare of the Ghaele will have use activation/deactivation triggers built into them so you don't send every villager you encounter running in terror because you wanted a cool debuff that day.
"Always on" abilities like Stare of the Ghaele will have use activation/deactivation triggers built into them so you don't send every villager you encounter running in terror because you wanted a cool debuff that day.
Unless you're reaaaalllly ugly.
Why did you remove Constitution from being needed?
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Why did you remove Constitution from being needed?
Primarily because when people asked why it was there, my main answer was "flavor". There's kind of a hidden Constitution tax though; I left the Con requirements in the feats. So if you'd rather put points elsewhere, you don't have to have CON; however, if you do invest in your Constitution score, you'll have an increased facility with the entire Essence subsystem.
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"Always on" abilities like Stare of the Ghaele will have use activation/deactivation triggers built into them so you don't send every villager you encounter running in terror because you wanted a cool debuff that day.Unless you're reaaaalllly ugly.
Ah, yes, the "McCardell effect"
:D
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Changelog:
Ditchdigger's Armlets changed to deal bludgeoning damage
Polar Snowshoes damage reduced to d4's
Gorget of the Wyrm's fly speed ability changed to scale for both speed and maneuverability.
Standard action "on/off switch" added to Stare of the Ghaele to limit frightened-peasant syndrome.
The word "magic" has been removed from Hand Cannon's attack description to re-emphasize that the point for including damage types in a spell effect is that they should be impacted by appropriate DR (see FAQs and discussions on abilities like the Bardic Weird Words on Paizo forums for relevant info).
Shape Veil clarified to indicate that it does not allow a veilweaving class to exceed their normal number of Veils per day.
Requirements for Enhanced Veil Capacity raised to 7th level.
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So this came up in another thread and it's something I'd like you to consider as you do your playtesting. A player brought up that abilities with cool-downs, like Ditchdigger's Armlets and Gorget of the Wyrm, aren't balanced by their cooldowns if you just have enough cool-down based abilities to effectively juggle them (probably 4). I've thought about introducing a condition called "Essence Burn" to normalize cool-downs and basically put a universal timer on such effects. So here's what I'd like your feedback on as you test the class out:
1) Is it necessary? Is the current incarnation of the Vizier too strong, or is this an unnecessary debuff?
2) Is an enforced cool-down the right solution to this problem, if a problem it is? Is there another solution you feel would be more appropriate that won't impact the Vizier's progression too negatively?
This change will not happen within the next week, if it hapens at all, as I want to give everyone plenty of time to playtest and evaluate the current class, but these are just things to think about.
I know I kind of said it before, but I'm putting a lock on changes for the next week here. I'm not making any more adjustments that aren't to fix something very obviously broken, or to clarify mechanics or intent until we get more feedback in, so PLEASE, continue to do any playtesting you're doing, safe in the knowledge that your feedback will still be relevant by the time you're done. I may post proposals for ideas based on preliminary feedback, but the class and system are going to continue to work as listed in the current documentation for at least a week.
So far in my reading - not playing - most of the offensive veils are good at low levels but don't seem to scale enough to be meaningful at high levels. That's part of what I want to see this weekend at the pinacle.
What I'm seeing is a lot of stuff that will scale out to maybe 6 dice of damage at high level, though I'm not done reading. Not really credible at 20th but I may be on the verge of finding the right veils. Basically a veil with a full essentia cap loaded doesn't seem to compare to what high level characters throw around routinely. I think.
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So far in my reading - not playing - most of the offensive veils are good at low levels but don't seem to scale enough to be meaningful at high levels. That's part of what I want to see this weekend at the pinacle.
What I'm seeing is a lot of stuff that will scale out to maybe 6 dice of damage at high level, though I'm not done reading. Not really credible at 20th but I may be on the verge of finding the right veils. Basically a veil with a full essentia cap loaded doesn't seem to compare to what high level characters throw around routinely. I think.
Let me know how it turns out, I'm looking forward to hearing the results! Damage veils should be closer to 8 dice for the Vizier (whose Essence cap is 7 pre-feat), and I'm working on a couple ways to boost that a bit. My primary thoughts right now are either making the capacity improvement feats scale with level, or building some inherent boosters into the class or veil system. Since I'm generally against feat taxes, the boosters may be the way to go. If I decide to bring in Essence Burn as a thing, rather than it just being a control I'll probably also tie in a mechanic that allows it to boost Veil effects (for example, being able to take 3 rounds of Essence Burn to gain an additional 6 damage dice at 18th level). My problem with the idea is that I already feel like it's a pretty complex subsystem and I'd rather go with a solution that doesn't introduce more bookkeeping. Regardless, let me know how it goes!
Things to look forward to: I'm revamping the Veil chart to include bind descriptions, and adding notations into the Veil lists to indicate when binds become available. I promised the Vizier isn't going to change much for at least the next week, but that doesn't mean you're not going to get new goodies, because..... Daevic and Guru are both undergoing review for a weekend release! Once the Veil lists have been reviewed and updated, and changes made during the Vizier's playtest are incorporated into the other classes, they'll be out for you to get your hands on.
A thought about capstone ability:
What if it wasn't full at-will veilshifting, instead allowing a vizier to change his veils at any time with a minutes or 10 of preparation?
I might be completely wrong on this but I feel that fast veilshifting should be rare and require making serious decision. Instead it could go faster as the level grows - starting as a standard action, then becoming a move action and a swift action. I would add more uses of veilshifting per day, though (I thought about one on each even level, to a maximum of ten at 20th level).
Keeping a limited amount of veilshiftings per day would allow making favored class bonus and feats that grant additional uses of that ability - which in a long term is good because capstone ability will be useful for much less actual vizier characters than alternate favored class bonus.
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A thought about capstone ability:
What if it wasn't full at-will veilshifting, instead allowing a vizier to change his veils at any time with a minutes or 10 of preparation?
I might be completely wrong on this but I feel that fast veilshifting should be rare and require making serious decision. Instead it could go faster as the level grows - starting as a standard action, then becoming a move action and a swift action. I would add more uses of veilshifting per day, though (I thought about one on each even level, to a maximum of ten at 20th level).
Keeping a limited amount of veilshiftings per day would allow making favored class bonus and feats that grant additional uses of that ability - which in a long term is good because capstone ability will be useful for much less actual vizier characters than alternate favored class bonus.
You know, that's opening a can of worms I've been thinking about. I don't want a player doing at-will veilshifting at 20th level at my table. I really don't need a player sitting back and (inevitably on their turn, not while waiting for their turn) saying "I need a couple minutes to rejigger everything."
Swapping out one or two veils is one thing. But weaving a whole new set, binding chakras, then investing essence... man, that's going to take ten minutes.
Again, I wasn't going to say anything but since the topic is open, I figure I'd expand on it.
I'm a fan of "don't say what's wrong... suggest what's right", so I've also got a proposal. The vizier could have one or more "sets" of veils prepared. The player would pick their 9-ish veils and have them decided upon in advance. The vizier is then permitted to swap "sets". That way the player could theoretically have two or more statblocks/character sheets and just switch between them or just have a summary of transforms, like a barbarian in or out of rage. If the player doesn't elect to do the book-keeping early, the ability can't be used. I think that might eliminate in-combat book-surfing.
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I'm a fan of "don't say what's wrong... suggest what's right", so I've also got a proposal. The vizier could have one or more "sets" of veils prepared. The player would pick their 9-ish veils and have them decided upon in advance. The vizier is then permitted to swap "sets". That way the player could theoretically have two or more statblocks/character sheets and just switch between them or just have a summary of transforms, like a barbarian in or out of rage. If the player doesn't elect to do the book-keeping early, the ability can't be used. I think that might eliminate...
I just want to chime in that this is the design paradigm we had with the aegis and soulknife. You can swap out minor things (Reconfigure for the Aegis - daily limit, Fluid Form for the soulknife, and in the case of the soulknife, for a penalty on his weapon), and even have a completely separate set of abilities (Additional Configuration for the soulknife), but you couldn't redo the whole thing on the fly...
While part of that was for balance, another part was to avoid slowing down game play.