WARNING: Long post, and extreme rules-lawyering ahead.
Also: Spoilers for the Kingmaker AP, which contains a certain encounter which triggered all of this.
Read on at your own peril; comments on how to interpret the Energy Draining and Negative Level rules MOST welcome.
Background: We are currently playing the Kingmaker AP via MapTool, have just finished the first module and came up against a Cairn Wight in a barrow mound from part two. My character (Quortan, a level 3 half-orc barbarian) fought and eventually slew the wight, but was hit and energy-drained in the process. When we looked up the consequences of this, we found out that - working from 2nd edition DnD assumptions - we'd been doing it all wrong: Our GM gave my character a save every time he was hit to avoid the effects of the energy-drain. He was hit four times, but only failed one DC 18 FORT save, and has thus incurred the dreaded "temporary negative level", which may or may not turn permanent.
Because we were unsure of what this means and entails, I promised to "look into the rules" and came up with the following treatise:
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Energy draining and its consequences are described twice in the PF rule books: Once in the Core Rule Book (Appendix 1: Special Abilities, p. 562) and once in the Bestiary (Appendix 3: Glossary, Universal Monster Rules, p. 299f). There are contradictions between these two sources that cause some trouble. Since it was a monster that caused the energy drain, let’s start with the Bestiary. The explanation there is straightforward:
“Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent’s vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits.”
Note that “happens automatically” means you do NOT get a saving throw (as you would if the effect was brought on by a spell) – this has been explicitly clarified by one of the PF designers on the Paizo forums.
The Bestiary entry goes on: “Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many).” We were facing a Cairn Wight (CR 4), which is “an advanced wight that fights with a weapon (...) that channels its energy drain attack and affects creatures damaged by the weapon as if they had been struck by the wight’s slam attack.” (p. 267) The slam attack is specified for a standard Wight as: “Melee: slam +4 (1d4+1 plus energy drain), Special Attacks: create spawn, energy drain (1 level, DC 14)”; in our case, a Cairn Wight, the DC was 18, IIRC.
This means that, by the rules, the Cairn Wight should have drained energy every time it hit, with no save. To make matters worse, the Bestiary then states that “if an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels.”
In our case, Quortan was hit at least four times, and I think one of those may have been a critical hit (unconfirmed), which would have bestowed more negative levels than his total of three, thus killing him, and making him rise as the Wight’s spawn. Then again, we probably wouldn’t have fought on once we found out that each hit drained energy without a save. Either way, Bee {our GM} ruled that, after failing one save, Quortan had his energy drained and had one negative level bestowed upon him, so let’s continue from there. The Bestiary says that:
“Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.”
In our case, we do not have access to Restoration (fourth level cleric or paladin spell), so 24 hours after the attack occurred, Quortan will have to succeed on a FORT save, likely DC 18. Since we know at what time the save is coming on, we should be able to pull a few tricks to improve Quortan’s chances here, i.e. let him use items that boost saves (if any), cast Bear’s Endurance for a +4 to CON, the Guidance orison (or the Resistance cantrip, which Thad {our party's mage}, sadly, doesn’t have) for a +1 to saves, or possibly (?) even Protection from Evil for a +2 to saves from this (delayed) “effect created by evil creatures”. Also, doesn’t Camigwen {our party's halfling oracle} have some halfling- or oracle-ability that lets her companions re-roll a save?
At any rate, should Quortan still fail his save, the negative level becomes permanent. To understand what a “permanent negative level” actually is, we need to turn to the Core Rule Book, as the Bestiary entry ends here. And it is there (p. 334) that we learn that “permanent” doesn’t really mean permanent:
“Restoration (Conjuration (healing); Level cleric 4, paladin 4)
Components V, S, M (diamond dust worth 100 gp or 1,000 gp, see text)
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels temporary negative levels or one permanent negative level. If this spell is used to dispel a permanent negative level, it has a material component of diamond dust worth 1,000 gp. This spell cannot be used to dispel more than one permanent negative level possessed by a target in a 1-week period.”
In short, the only difference between removing “temporary” vs. “permanent” negative levels is 900 GP, and a one week downtime per permanent negative level after the first. Of course this still means we have to find an appropriate cleric and pay him a chunk of money, but at least we have this option, if not now, then sometime in the future.
Before we continue, let’s take a step back and think about what the designers may have intended with these rules, and how they play out in practice. For one thing, level-draining undead are still scary, but not in that fatalistic save-or-suck way of 1st and 2nd edition: The main danger is that now, a few hits will – regardless of damage or saving-throws – kill a character and turn him into an (unresurrectable) undead spawn. Cool, and flavorful. However, if you realize what you are up against, you can just turn and run, hope you make the save(s) and shake off the “temporary” negative level, or, eventually, pay 900 GP and get your “permanent” lost level back. It’s more like a lingering curse than an irrevocable punishment. By removing the save while softening the conditions that allow you to get a “lost” level back, the designers made the monster more scary in the short term, but less devastating in the long run.
So far, so good: I quite like this and would be OK if we applied these rules going forward. The problem is that the Core Rule Book’s definition of energy draining casts doubt on whether the above interpretation is correct, and makes a general mess of things by tieing it up with the effects of the Energy Drain, Raise Dead and Restoration spells. It states (on p. 562):
“Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in ‘negative levels’ (...) A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.”
This contradicts the Bestiary and gives the impression that temporary negative level(s) continue to stay temporary until you eventually succeed on one of your daily saves; in our case a FORT DC 18, as specified in the Cairn Wight entry. They never turn permanent.
Note that the Core Rule Book’s distinction between “temporary” negative levels, as opposed to “permanent level drain”, is not made in the Bestiary, which just refers to “negative levels” in general. The Core Rule Book then goes on to define “permanent level drain” as follows:
“Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them.
Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.”
I’m still not sure what to make of this. At the one extreme, one might argue that the Core Rule Book superseeds the Bestiary: All “temporary” negative levels are truly temporary – you eventually shake them off by making your daily save, or expedite the process by casting Restoration. The only truly permanent negative levels are those brought on by the Raise Dead spell, and they are only “permanent” in that you don’t have a chance to shake them off naturally; you MUST cast Restoration to accomplish this (which, if you have access to Raise Dead, is a minor inconvenience only – go figure).
This rather cheapens the innate abilities of level-draining undead, turning them into an acute danger (getting killed by level-drain) but little more than an annoyance long term (you eventually make all your daily saves), but it is an interpretation that is somewhat supported by the definition of the spell Energy Drain (p. 277):
“Energy Drain (School necromancy; Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9)
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; see text for enervation
This spell functions like enervation (4th level sorcerer/wizard spell: “You point your finger and fire a black ray of negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit”), except that the creature struck gains 2d4 temporary negative levels. Twenty-four hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = energy drain spell’s save DC) for each negative level. If the save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, that negative level becomes permanent.”
If you compare the abilities of a lowly CR 3 or 4 wight to those of a cleric, sorcerer or wizard capable of casting this 9th (!) level spell, you might conclude that the intended main effect is – in both cases – to kill low to mid level/HD opponents by level drain rather than brute damage. For high-level/HD opponents, the spell is superior to the innate ability in that, after 24 hours, it explicitly only grants ONE “natural” save per level drained rather than the daily saves mentioned for ability-based level drain in the appendix.
At the other extreme, it has been argued on the Paizo forums that the “daily saves” reference for temporary negative levels merely means that you roll at an interval of one lost level per day, giving you a one-time-per-day “natural” chance to shake off a negative level, regardless of whether this was caused by an innate ability or a spell. This would extend the period of time a character suffers the acute effects of lost levels (unless you have access to Restoration) and every time you fail, the lost level becomes “permanent” ... but his still only means you have to pay more to get it back.
My opinion is that either of these extreme interpretations is dubious, and that the intended effect as well as the “most fun” solution is to go with the Bestiary definition, ignoring the uncertainty the Core Rule Book introduces.
I suspect that the root cause of the contradiction between the Core Rule Book and the Bestiary is a simple editing oversight: The Core Rulebook contains all the game’s spells, and the special abilities appendix from which the passage above stems, was written with those spells in mind – those that induce energy drain, and those that try to remedy it. The writer probably included the reference to the special undead ability without knowing how the Bestiary writer, who either worked later or in parallel, was going to resolve it.
Thus, to sum it all up, I propose that we go with the Bestiary definition and 1) accept that we made a mistake in rolling immediate saves where none were allowed, and resolve to use the rules above correctly going forward and 2) let Quortan roll his save for the one negative level he incurred, and have that negative level become “permanent” (to be remedied by Restoration once we get access to it) if he fails.
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from the PRD
If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
So nope you save after 24 hours if you haven't removed the levels yet. So you would be dead from what you described. You shouldn't hold on or play with rules you used to know so much has changed. I have been playing for 25+ years so I can feel your pain on this, but unless you GM house rules it and playes it they way you guys did well this is what to expect.
I've looked into this before. The 'general' rules for negative levels (make a new save every 24 hours) never seem to apply, not even for spells. In every case there is a specific override. Probably an editing problem.
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Negative levels are highly destructive to low-level characters. You don't want to get into a fistfight with a wight as a fledgling adventurer )or anything that does level drain, in fact).
Per James Jacobs*:
Unless the monster or effect description SPECIFICALLY SAYS you get an initial saving throw... you don't get an initial saving throw.
Effects that grant initial saving throws against an energy drain effect are pretty rare. I actually can't think of any that are in the rules right now, in fact.
So each time you get hit, you immediately take a temporary negative level. After 24 hours, you make one saving throw (DC 16 for a basic cairn wight; not sure if the AP has altered that) per negative level you accrued, and if you fail the save, that becomes a permanent negative level.
*James is "the Golarion guy"; he's not regularly on the rules design team but he does know the rules quite well. In this case his comments seem to line up with what are fairly clear rules for the saving throws.
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The resolution to your supposed contradiction is this:
The core rulebook has the basic rules for negative levels. In the absence of other information, that is how negative levels work.
It just so happens that the most common source of negative levels is the Energy Drain monster ability, which imposes extra restrictions, like the negative level becoming permanent (which in this case only means it won't go away on its own) if the 24 hour save is failed.
Though rare, it is possible to gain negative levels that don't ever become permanent, through mechanisms other than Energy Drain. See the Ravener template's breath weapon and natural attacks, for example. in this case you would gain the daily saves until they went away.
Nice job digging deep Jorunkun, you got everything just right (except where you said that spells allow a save upon being hit).
Having witnessed the evolution from 1st to 3rd, to PF-alpha/beta/final, I prefer the Core Rulebook rules (without the chance for permanent energy drain, except from raise dead and such).
If you want, you can read about the topic, the dichotomy in the rules, and the history of their evolution (including more examples from ryric).
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For the record the current ed rules are waaaay more fun than old school where getting hit amountes to the loss of several weeks of adventuring.
You seem to have grasped the rules correctly.
Negative levels can be a real b~#~~.
In hindsight, your character probably should have died if combat had played out as described with the correct rules being applied. However, you also would have likely ran away.
Thanks for the many replies, and the very useful link to Majuba's thread.
I'm surprised this hasn't been officially addressed and errata'ed yet by the folks at Paizo.
Yes, actually losing a level in AD&D was horrible as there was really no way to get it back. The same happened when you were brought back to life so dying was was more of penalty in early editions.
Also, in Pathfinder the spellcasters do not lose slots like they did in 3rd edition.
I do not see a huge discrepancy in the two entries. The general CRB entry says that some temporary negative levels last more than a day and allow for a save each day. The Bestiary entry is specifically for the Energy Drain supernatural ability. Most energy drain spells do last even 24 hours to require a save and/or the opportunity to become permanent. So, yes, a caster has to get a creature all the way down to zero to kill them but there is no long term threat to the creature. The same is true with a monster using the ability. There is more of a long term nuisance but once you are out of combat there are ways to eventually get all the negative levels removed.
One note, I know the spell allows for a save 24 hours later, as a DM I always adjudicated that it is not a save that occurs at a specific time as would happen in combat. So Bear's Endurance and Guidance would not really be applicable, unless you had enough to cast upon you the entire 24 hours. I know this is not supported in the rules but it seems funny that 24 from the time you were drained to have everyone cast their spells on you in the hopes you make the save.
I realize that it is just a game mechanic and I also realize that it stinks to have that pesky permanent negative level (that isn't really permanent as it can be removed via Restoration), but it does not make sense to me as a mechanic or a role-play issue that the characters would know exactly when the save needed to be made as they might in a combat situation.
I rule the same for diseases and such. Again, less a RAW and more my interpretation of the rules and how to apply them.
One note, I know the spell allows for a save 24 hours later, as a DM I always adjudicated that it is not a save that occurs at a specific time as would happen in combat. So Bear's Endurance and Guidance would not really be applicable, unless you had enough to cast upon you the entire 24 hours. I know this is not supported in the rules but it seems funny that 24 from the time you were drained to have everyone cast their spells on you in the hopes you make the save.
I realize that it is just a game mechanic and I also realize that it stinks to have that pesky permanent negative level (that isn't really permanent as it can be removed via Restoration), but it does not make sense to me as a mechanic or a role-play issue that the characters would know exactly when the save needed to be made as they might in a combat situation.
I rule the same for diseases and such. Again, less a RAW and more my interpretation of the rules and how to apply them.
I actually agree with that quite a bit. It just depends on how much simulationist versus narativist you like your games. Personally, I also wouldn't allow the PCs to know when is the perfect time to cast the spells on an afflicted chracter to buff them when they make their save. I would however allow a character to use the heal skill to help treat the negative levels as though it were a disease if they recieve long term care. Providing a +2, or maybe even +4 bonus.
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Remember "negative levels" is not "energy drain", just like "ability damage" is not "ability drain", those are different things in Pathfinder. Ability drain is permanent, ability damage is not. In the same way, not all negative levels are permanent or a result of energy drain.
Basically "drain" is permanent if you miss the save, or can't buy a higher level spell.
Since you already played through the encounter and it's not PFS then the GM should just use the old rule this one time, and switch to the new one for next time. Since you'd have run away after the first level, or avoided the encounter entirely. He can't apply the new rule to something that happened already, since you'd be dead and he'd have to rerun the last few rounds of the encounter.
That is how our group does it, when we get something wrong we just remember to change next time, but leave what we already did. Otherwise it's too complicated and events make no sense.