Hey guys trying to build a summoner type, was gonna do a wizard but thought the full round to cast would be too harsh. I thought about a reach cleric but the GM is hesitant about sacred summons So I figured I'd look up the summoner. Which honestly has everything I can think of, except the Eidolon blocks you from casting summons!? I saw the master summoner, which is where I'm thinking, but am i losing too much with the 1/2 penalty to the Eidolon? synthesist sounds fun but everyone is calling it overpowered. So in the end which is the best summoner and how would you build it or at least where would you start?
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Well, Master Summoner is pretty powerful, and generally considered to be one of the best at the job. The Eidolon you probably want to just use points to improve skills, as it won't see much combat. Its helpful to have a summoning app or to have the creatures you summon most often written on index cards to speed up gameplay. But it is pretty darn hard to mess a summoner up.
Seriously, master summoner has the answer for everything. Give your eidolon skilled evolution, fly, use magic devices and (eventually) it will be worthwhile to have around to keep some summon SLA's in reserve (if you need to; which is depending on GM style and frequency of fights). Wands of create pit/grease/glitterdust go a long way and with +8 UMD the eidolon can use them well around level 7 or 8. For serious fights unsummon your eidolon and summon multiple creatures instead (you can only have one summon SLA active while the eidolon is out).Eagles rule summon monster 1, 1d3 eagles rule summon monster 2 (though small lighning elemental with +10 disarm will come in handy often, as well as giant frogs +5 touch attack 15 foot grappling tongue), i like crocodile's death roll for summon monster 3 (mostly because of the idea of it) and auroch stampede rocks level 4.
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Here is an example i always give of a Synthesis Summoner when they ask about them being op or not and how to build one, a creation of mine a while back.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1
-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34
-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40
AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28
-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34
-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44
AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58
-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (8)
Improved Damage (claws)
-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20
-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)
High saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.
Well, for the traditional role of summoner, as in one that can 'summon meatshield', then the master summoner is the one for the job.
Not to say that the vanilla summoner isn't great. Just that eidolons fulfill a different kind of role. The SLA, standard action summoning they get is still quite good, and enough to stay relevant. They can also just take the normal summoning spells, although those would face the 6 spell level cap and still be the normal casting time.
Anyway, dismissing your eidolon is a standard action. Not too much damage, especially when you start getting things like a quickened rod so you can still do buffing during the first turn. Using it as a skill monkey works well enough when you are a master summoner, since it can just grab a single point evolution to get an instant +8 to a skill, more than making up for lack of level.
One of the fun things about summoner though is that it can also play a build like the reach cleric, since it also has 3/4 BAB (and it gets the advantage of arcane strike as well)
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Now a Master Summoner is nice but i prefer the Sorcerer for my summonings because of its many spell slots and things one can do as a full caster.
A Sylvan Wildblood Sorcerer ,imo, is the way to go. What makes this option amazing is that you can go full caster focusing on summonings while having an animal companion. Now imagine for a second you as a sorcerer being invisible casting summon monster and buffing your animal with spells like Form of the Dragon, normal a personal spell only but thanks to share spell animal can benefit from it. Now if you were to go this wrought i strongly suggest a single level of Druid so you qualify for the Summon feats that give your summon monsters the ability to bypass magic, silver, and cold iron damage reduction.
As for how to build, I went for the "hide for your life and summon a bunch of stuff" approach instead of the "fight alongside your summons" one. It really depends on how you want to spend your actions. With standard action summons you can attack (with bow or weapon), cast a spell, or use that same action to summon several monsters who ALL attack when summoned. While a synthesis gets attacks per level based off level, your attacks per level are only limited by the size of the room/area that you are in. Also a lot of the monsters later on have spells so it's like casting multiple spells per round. If you get into trouble turn invisible. Also remember, SLA's don't have any components (verbal/somatic/material) so wearing a hat of disguise and looking like a captive should keep you from getting targeted often (though the bad guys may start wondering why the reports back always say that the party is always towing around a captive).
I don't have my character sheet with me but I think I went str 7, dex 14, con 10, int 12, wis 12, chr 20 after race modifiers (human +2 to chr). If I had it to do over I would probably put chr @ 17 (19 with bonus) because that gains you a lot of point in the long run.
Feats you want to look at are superior summons (+1 summon when you summon multiple monsters), the eldritch heritage feats (either for +dmg for summons or arcane bond/spells for you), and craft wand/wondrous items (again depending on GM style). If you can get/make a wand of "litany of sloth" your stampede will tear things up while a ring/ wand of bestow grace will make your saves ridiculous.
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Having played and GMed with quite a few summoners, I've learned two important things every summoner should to do avoid annoying everyone else at the table:
1. Have all your likely/possible summons written up on index cards. It should include everything needed for someone else, not the summoner, to play that creature.
2. Consider letting other players sometimes play your summons. Note that Summons are technically for the GM to play, not the players of the summoner, so what the GM says goes!
Master summoners, in particular, can take a long time to take a turn. If you have 5 summoned monsters out there, some casting spells, it's easy to be slow.
If you allow the other players to sometimes play your summoned monsters it A) Speeds up play and B) Keeps other players from getting bored at your lengthy turn.
Summoners are much more versatile than they're given credit for.
I'll have a better post tonight but you really have to ask yourself what you really want to do.
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2. Consider letting other players sometimes play your summons. Note that Summons are technically for the GM to play, not the players of the summoner, so what the GM says goes!
Technically, there is no rule on who plays the summons.
The GM would need to establish that base rule at the start of the game.
The summon monster spells says who controls the summons.
If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
Then there's the UCamp rule which cover both intelligent and non-intelligent companions.
Nonsentient Companions: A nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.
Sentient Companions: A sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won't necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.
From these entries, you can pretty accurately model the outcome and who controls what with most any summon.
One point to keep in mind is that your eidolon is a more powerful creature than anything you can summon at your level from the Summon Monster lists, so the vanilla summoner is a solid choice if you put most of your effort into improving your eidolon. The Summon Monster ability is primarily a backup ability in case something happens to your eidolon or a utility ability in cases where the specific abilities of a summoned monster are more useful than those of your eidolon.
But if your DM is hesitant about Sacred Summons, why would he accept a Summoner anyway? After all, Sacred Summons is nothing more than a weak version of the standard Summoner's faster summoning ability, and you can't take advantage of that feat until 5th level if you serve a lawful good deity or 9th level if you serve a chaotic good deity. Or was his doubt over you interpreting that feat differently?
My master summoner is atypical. He's a natural lycanthrope so he can melee pretty well. With pounce and dimensional dervish he can be kind of terrifying. His summons are secondary on a per-fight basis. His eidolon is basically just a free, flying mount that he can have whenever he wants. Spells-wise, he's mostly a self buffer and then goes in for the attack. The class and template lets him be highly versatile. He used aspect for skilled (umd) and outclasses demigods, demon lords, etc in his UMD with a +44 mod at level 12. So, don't roll a 1.
Hmm the master summoner does seem like the winner, but now I'm worried he might be too powerful, wouldn't want the gm to get upset. Sigh trying to come up with something that could cover magic and skills. Tried to get into the bard but wasn't really feeling it. Thought this was a good idea. Guess I could downplay his power until a emergency comes up (followed by a ton of monsters)
I found the best plan was to make the master summoner very attached to his eidolon. GM's have a lot less cause for complaint if you plan to have your eidolon summoned the vast majority of the time. Staying to one active summons at a time keeps things from slowing down much and when things do go really wrong you have the option to break out your full power.
Yeah thats kind of what I'm thinking. I thought about doing the straight summoner but I like the idea of summoning something when needed to fit the need
Any thing that can summon can do that. Shoot, you can even just stick to the summon spells when your eidolon is out. Summoners don't get special summons just by virtue of being a summoner. They do get augment summons, though, which can be very nice.
I just hate the idea of having a ability I might rarely use (the summon monster)The general idea is pretty much what Otm mentioned, keep the eidolon out until there is a emergency or he is killed. Then I go nuts and summon up
Do you want the eidolon or some companion that does the up front fighting for you and you just like the eidolon mechanics?
I like the idea of summons as a standard action. The eidolon is nice but I like the variety of calling what I need (to meet the situation and as a disposable ally) Just realized the game is tonight and I need to come up with something. My thought atm is maybe talk to the GM and maybe home rule this slightly, either let sacred summons work on all summons (so I gain summons as a standard) or maybe reward my character's restraint by increasing the summons while the eidolon is active by 1 every 5 levels It's a thought I don't really think any of those would be too powerful...not like just keeping the eidolon tucked away and nuking the encounter
I'm thinking if sacred summons is an issue the summoner is just going to be worse because it takes standard action summons, and then, it adds more awesome to summons including another free feat to make your summons stronger.
Definitely run it by your GM.
