So so recent threads (one of which my own) has me wondering:
Who DOES make the best martial for a party?
We are going to look, not at level 20 theory-builds, but organic 1-20 playthrough. Additionally, let us assume that the martial will be backed by a Wizard, a Cleric, and a bard (because nobody likes rogues :P).
Additionally, we are going to look at the martials to fill the role of the "bruiser" or "tank" of the party. So glass cannons like Dervish Dancing Magus and hyper-sneak attack rogues won't count. So this really puts us at:
Cleric
Druid
Oracle
Warpriest (second revision)
Barbarian
Fighter
Paladin
Anti-Paladin
Alchemist
Monk.
So now that the rules are set! LET US COMMENCE!!!
EDIT: ONE LAST THING!! We also want to look at, not just DPS, but what class can bring the most to the party as a whole. We want to look at endurance, survivability, ruggedness, extra features, resistances/immunities, and combat prowess.
More of a speculation. This is more of an comparison in an organic comparison
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this is like watching a foot race where at the crack of the starting gun every runner simultaneously breaks both of their legs
Druid or Lunar Oracle.
Both bring another Fighter along with them and will eventually reachthe point where their physical damage outweighs the Fighters when they get access to Pounce, or Vital Strike bites. On skills they come out about equal, but Oracles will make better faces and after level 11 are strongest class in the game if using Paragon Surge.
After that probably Summoner, since the Eidolon can cover a number of skills for them while allowing them to be the face and of course the Eidolon has pounce and easy access to many natural attacks, which it can use on top of a Weapon routine.
After that, probably an Inquisitor or Alchemist, slight edge to the Alchemist.
Alchemist Beastmorph/Vivisectionist with Master Chymist levels makes for some VERY fun times to annoy a GM as an unexpected tank xxD.
I forgot about the Synthesist. Yes summoners can be used as well xD
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You forgot Samurai. I played one from levels 5-13 in Rise of the Runelords who proved to be an absolute beast. Challenge mechanic for extra damage + boosts to saving throws + ability to turn an enemy's critical hit into a regular feat + full druid companion animal makes for a pretty strong martial class. Admittedly, the class has a much narrower focus (mounted melee specialist) but it's quite good in that role.
I forgot the Cavalier and Samurai exist xD. I feel horrid xD
I forgot the Cavalier and Samurai exist xD. I feel horrid xD
No worries. The cavalier fulfills a slightly different role and the samurai tends to be overlooked because a lot of people don't think to re-skin them to a western theme.
My experience is that the samurai falls between a fighter and paladin in a lot of respects. Specifically, I think of the fighter as the "all-day-all-night" guy (as long as he has HP) and the paladin as the character that can go nova using limited resources and has a strong moral code. The samurai's offensive nova isn't quite as bright as the paladin's but it is more widely applicable in some senses (i.e., against neutral foes), his defensive resources are fairly plentiful (namely resolve, x/day samurai abilities, and some DR/-), and he gets some fighter bonus feats and access to fighter-only feats.
edit: Also samurai have a moral code but the fall mechanic is nowhere near as punishing as that of the paladin.
edit 2: Finally, it should be noted that my samurai played side-by-side with a mounted ranged paladin, getting along quite well both in combat and in terms of RP (both were honorable warriors). The samurai class is very flexible in terms of melee strategies and I often switched between several methods of attack in a given combat. This allowed the paladin space to specialize 100% on archery, which he excelled at. The combined effect was quite potent - the paladin's ranged DPR would force enemies to close combat quickly and the samurai would cut down opponents before they could trouble the paladin.
Invulnerable Ragers are just SO tough.
Druid>Fighter>Barbars>Pallys>Monks>others
Both barbars and Pallys limit the strategies that the party can use. This takes options away from fullcasters.
Monks have their SR issue which puts them in the same boat as the barbar.
Best solo martial looks like this
Druid>Barbars>Pallys>Monks>others
Druid is always the best though...
Barbarians limit the strategies parties can use, because of:
Fighters don't because :
(Fill in the blanks please
Superstitious.
Superstitious.Barbarians limit the strategies parties can use, because of:
Fighters don't because :
(Fill in the blanks please
Ok? So you can't combat heal with spells...
Remember, superstitious only applies while you are raging...
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For survivability there are four options:
- Alpha Strike (Damage)
- Iron Fortress (Armor Class)
- Second Wind (In-Combat Recovery)
- Damage Sponge (Hit Points, DR)
For Alpha Strikers, there can be a whole debate/theorycraft on who can dish out the most damage per round, but there is already a thread or three about that. Pouncing Barbarians, Smiting Paladins, Fighters, various types of Druids can come into play with this. The possible drawback is when something goes awry, like a crucial attack that misses or an opponent's damage output exceeds recovery.
Iron Fortress invest a lot of gold in hopes of preventing damage done, though the risk is when the gap between Normal AC and Touch AC widens up. Monks tend to have a high overall AC, as well as easier access to pure negation techniques, such as Crane Wing/Deflect Arrows. Damage output, however, could be an issue when investment to armor outweighs it.
Second Wind is usually where in-combat techniques can help out in endurance battles, as well as keeping downtime to a minimum. Tiefling Paladins with Fey Foundling are a good example of a Second Wind. The issue is the amount to resources that can be used before you start to lose efficiency.
Damage Sponges have a tendency to absorb a lot of damage, through Hit Points, Damage Reduction, or both. An Invulnerable Rager is an example. They can take the hit, and when they do, some of it gets reduced to nil. The drawback here is that party resources are going to sink more into the sponge the more often it gets attacked.
What you need is what you and your group think you would need. In my Reign of Winter group, for example, I am part Second Wind/Damage Sponge. I take a lot of damage that would have been to the party, but a majority of it is reduced. However, when I am healed, I recover so much more than usual that I can be an efficient obstructing force while the rest of the group can finish off the preoccupied enemy.
And if you ask what capabilities my character has, it does have a pitiful offense, but when I reach level 11, I will obtain DR 14/-, and be healed from a Cure Moderate (CL 11) for 2d8+30.
Superstitious.Barbarians limit the strategies parties can use, because of:
Fighters don't because :
(Fill in the blanks please
Ok? So you can't combat heal with spells...
Remember, superstitious only applies while you are raging...
Yes, which limits the effectiveness of certain casting strategies.
No on-the-fly buffs for barbar
No gtfo spells for the barbar
Almost no healing for the barbar
The barbar ask the whole party to work around her problems and when they do barbars seem hands-down better than fighters.
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Superstitious.Barbarians limit the strategies parties can use, because of:
Fighters don't because :
(Fill in the blanks please
Ok? So you can't combat heal with spells...
Remember, superstitious only applies while you are raging...
That is when sometimes healing can be critical:
Barbarian goes and kills one, then takes 80 points of damage for the round.
A heal spell that could have been 40 is now reduced to 20.
Again, Barbarian takes another, as well as another 80.
A Heal that could have been 110 is now reduced to 55.
You can say that if the Barbarian is capable of Rage Cycling or the player is wise enough to reduce damage output so the medic can heal more. All and all, go for it. However, I had a few times where the healer is a bit frustrated because a Heal spell was dropped by half.
Superstitious.Barbarians limit the strategies parties can use, because of:
Fighters don't because :
(Fill in the blanks please
Ok? So you can't combat heal with spells...
Remember, superstitious only applies while you are raging...
That is when sometimes healing can be critical:
Barbarian goes and kills one, then takes 80 points of damage for the round.
A heal spell that could have been 40 is now reduced to 20.
Again, Barbarian takes another, as well as another 80.
A Heal that could have been 110 is now reduced to 55.
You can say that if the Barbarian is capable of Rage Cycling or the player is wise enough to reduce damage output so the medic can heal more. All and all, go for it. However, I had a few times where the healer is a bit frustrated because a Heal spell was dropped by half.
If the fight is really coming down to just HP damage, the Barbarian has already won. With the highest HP in the game, he can easily soak that.
^^^
This
If the fight is really coming down to just HP damage, the Barbarian has already won. With the highest HP in the game, he can easily soak that.Superstitious.Barbarians limit the strategies parties can use, because of:
Fighters don't because :
(Fill in the blanks please
Ok? So you can't combat heal with spells...
Remember, superstitious only applies while you are raging...
That is when sometimes healing can be critical:
Barbarian goes and kills one, then takes 80 points of damage for the round.
A heal spell that could have been 40 is now reduced to 20.
Again, Barbarian takes another, as well as another 80.
A Heal that could have been 110 is now reduced to 55.
You can say that if the Barbarian is capable of Rage Cycling or the player is wise enough to reduce damage output so the medic can heal more. All and all, go for it. However, I had a few times where the healer is a bit frustrated because a Heal spell was dropped by half.
That depends on what we determine for the role of Martial. Are they Tanks? Damage-Dealers? Support-Types? All of the Above?
If Tanks, Paladin wins out. Immunities, Self-Healing, Insane Saves, not to mention being a major threat in about every combat. And that Divine Bond...a free summon that allows the Paladin to "soak up" even more Hit Points than some random Raging Barbarian. And that doesn't include Lay On Hands usages.
If Damage-Dealers this is debatable; most "SUPER AWESOME DPR OLYMPIC" builds are not only hardly eligible in a real game, but assuming we allow them, are going to be mounted critical-hit builds, considering how many multipliers are included in the base damage attacks.
If Support-Types, then it's all about who gives utility, and while Druids or Clerics or Bards give some of the best utility in the game, it is something that's a minor role for a Martial, assuming it even exists. But making it a trial, I'd give it to the Paladin again; it has such powerful features and resources to start with, being able to expand on them makes you even more effective at all of your jobs.
To be honest, the best Martial I'd rule is a Paladin due to the feats they can take, as well as the gameplay they would have with their Divine Bond Mounts! (Being both super-tankey with a lot of damage by mounted combat! Best of both worlds!)
Uh. Darksol. I meant that if things are just coming down to beating on each other, well, the Barbarian has DR, tons of HP, and saves to boot.
Theres not exactly such thing as tanking anyways, but if the Barbarian already has their attention well. Yknow. Crunch splat. Support-wise, the Barbarian gets one of the best ways of scaling Combat Maneuvers through Strength Surge. So he knocks em flat too =P Spell Sunder is incredible in a pinch too.
Paladins have a really nice kit though. The hugely important thing is that they bring resources outside of their martial ability to the party.
My scoring would probably be
Paladin>Barbarian>Ranger>Cleric=Druid>Inquisitor
Not sure if I'd count on a Magus though. Too much of a Glass Cannon.
So so recent threads (one of which my own) has me wondering:
Who DOES make the best martial for a party?
IMHO, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers all have their perks. All are very well balanced against one-another. Several of the other 3/4 classes can make a pretty good filler for a martial slot, with their own perks and drawbacks.
I like barbarians myself. High saves, utility, some skills, and excellent damage. Paladins are nice for high survivability but I find it is easier to mitigate the classes damage output in important encounters, plus the code can be problematic. Fighters make good dedicated archers.
Depends on your groups play style a lot. Rangers tend to be unpopular in my gaming circle, the pet is seen as more of a liability. Favored enemy is situational, and once you get instant enemy readied actions to interrupt spell casting is pretty common. This seems uncommon from what I read on the boards though.
Paladins have the problem of vastly restricted actions via their code, which spreads to limiting the party.
If you are of the opinion that spells > not-spells then you do not want a martial that limits the usefulness of spells from fullcasters.
Barbars are great for cluster-fudge parties with little teamwork. But for teams that specialize in clever tactics and complex strategies, I would prefer having a fighter or druid martial.
Barbarians can't use tactics or teamwork because:
Fighters can use tactics and teamwork because:
(Please help me fill in the blanks again)
Because thinking out of the box is hard.
Because thinking out of the box is hard.Barbarians can't use tactics or teamwork because:
Fighters can use tactics and teamwork because:
(Please help me fill in the blanks again)
Actually yes. Barbars force parties away from many obvious and effective strategies because of things like superstitious.
But that doesn't mean the barbarian can't use tactics or teamwork but that some kinds of it are harder to use with them.
On the other hand an individual barbarian could be much more inclined to use tactics than an individual fighter.
Actually yes. Barbars force parties away from many obvious and effective strategies because of things like superstitious.Because thinking out of the box is hard.Barbarians can't use tactics or teamwork because:
Fighters can use tactics and teamwork because:
(Please help me fill in the blanks again)
Again such as? Provide evidence/proof of your supposed claims...
So far you have made a claim and have not backed it up at all...
Superstitious does nothing of the sort...
Actually yes. Barbars force parties away from many obvious and effective strategies because of things like superstitious.Because thinking out of the box is hard.Barbarians can't use tactics or teamwork because:
Fighters can use tactics and teamwork because:
(Please help me fill in the blanks again)
Again such as? Provide evidence/proof of your supposed claims...
So far you have made a claim and have not backed it up at all...
Superstitious does nothing of the sort...
Party is fighting monsters. Simple trash mob so the casters didn't burn 3rd level slots for it.
Suddenly BBEG walks in (this happened to me in RotRL). Party caster thinks haste would be good. Barbar too busy raging to get buff. Begs caster to delay actions so that she can use moment of clarity. While a fighter or druid would have just taken the buff in stride instead of trying to get the party to delay actions all the time.
I didn't realize that superstitious was on all the time.
Also, it doesn't make you save against channeled energy, which is the most common healing I have seen.
I am actually not sure what strategies are effected?
The wizards casting summon monster? Cleric pre buffing?
You assume buffs spells are a pre-combat only thing. That is rarely the case. Also barbar have problems taking the best combat heal, the heal spell.
Actually yes. Barbars force parties away from many obvious and effective strategies because of things like superstitious.Because thinking out of the box is hard.Barbarians can't use tactics or teamwork because:
Fighters can use tactics and teamwork because:
(Please help me fill in the blanks again)
Again such as? Provide evidence/proof of your supposed claims...
So far you have made a claim and have not backed it up at all...
Superstitious does nothing of the sort...
Party is fighting monsters. Simple trash mob so the casters didn't burn 3rd level slots for it.
Suddenly BBEG walks in (this happened to me in RotRL). Party caster thinks haste would be good. Barbar too busy raging to get buff. Begs caster to delay actions so that she can use moment of clarity. While a fighter or druid would have just taken the buff in stride instead of trying to get the party to delay actions all the time.
Or the Barbarian can just charge and poucne the BBEG and full attack him and rip him to shreds in a full attack or two...
Additionally, WIth the barbarian's rage, the Wizard is actually free to do MORE because he doesn't need to waste spells trying to buff the BSF since the BSF can pretty much buff himself (if he is a barb). If the BSF is a fighter, he is going to need a lot of support and buffs to be capable...
So in your example the barbarian was playing poorly by raging for obvious nobodies or what.
Also, haste still happened? That is different from what you said, which is "can't do certain things"
Haste did happen. The barbar just saves against it and doesn't receive the buff. Or the caster has to delay their initiative which is not something they would have to do for a fighter.
No contest pound for pound its synth summoner. Only way another martial class beats it is if they can generate an Anti Magic Field. If you look at a generic level 10 build on 25pts with no magic items race aasimar.
Str 26 (7 unfused)
Dex 16 (7 unfused)
Con 19 (7 unfused)
Int 16
Wis 18
Cha 22
AC 32 unbuffed no magic items, DR 5/Evil,
HP: 165(summoner max 1st then half +1, Eidolon half HD)
5 attacks at BAB +8 and pounce and can Fly
Add in magic items and buffs and AC is around 42+
And they have spell casting, can evolution surege for +8 to any skills or energy immunities or whatever you need. A Druids buffed companion will never hit it. A charging barbarian with a 30 str and +5 weapon would only hit on 15+
Actually yes. Barbars force parties away from many obvious and effective strategies because of things like superstitious.Because thinking out of the box is hard.Barbarians can't use tactics or teamwork because:
Fighters can use tactics and teamwork because:
(Please help me fill in the blanks again)
Again such as? Provide evidence/proof of your supposed claims...
So far you have made a claim and have not backed it up at all...
Superstitious does nothing of the sort...
He probably means something along the lines of mid-fight the enemy starts flying or something and Superstitious may prevent the caster from flying you.
Which really doesn't matter a whole lot since Barbarians use ranged weapons just fine.
The beauty of Superstitious is that it makes every fight a fight of HP damage for the Barbarian. Take away a creature's special abilities and it has only it's normal attacks left. Against D12 Hitdice, a high Con Mod and DR.
Fighters force parties away from many obvious and effective strategies too. Because of low will saves and not being as tough as Barbarians. Clerics have to be on edge more, the full day of adventuring is shorter since the Fighter is a larger drain on resources.
Meanwhile, the party with the Barbarian is like, "We don't need to buff you to shred face? Sweet, I'm preparing more awesome spells!" Then the Cleric says, "You're not crying for help every other round? Sweet that means I can help fight too instead of worrying about whether you're going to fight on our side the whole fight!"
If the BSF is a fighter, he is going to need a lot of support and buffs to be capable...
lawl no. The fighter may not get pounce, but they are still a strong presence on the battlefield.
Especially at high levels when enemies start off too far away to pounce to (or they are flying and the barbar does not have air walk). The fighter can pull out her bow and use all those range combat feats she has in addition to bows being her second weapon training.
Haste did happen. The barbar just saves against it and doesn't receive the buff. Or the caster has to delay their initiative which is not something they would have to do for a fighter.So in your example the barbarian was playing poorly by raging for obvious nobodies or what.
Also, haste still happened? That is different from what you said, which is "can't do certain things"
Ok so the wizard is playing stupid...
Guess what? The Barbarian does not NEED haste like a fighter does... He can often hit for as much, if not more, than the fighter, is capable of moving and full attacking, has DR (unlike the fighter), has hihger con than the fighter, AND has a larger hit dice than the fighter.
If your theoretical situation happened, the wizard would instead spend his turn casting a CC spell/AoE to clear the way for the barbarian to charge in and kill things...
Fighters force parties away from many obvious and effective strategies too. Because of low will saves and not being as tough as Barbarians. Clerics have to be on edge more, the full day of adventuring is shorter since the Fighter is a larger drain on resources.
Meanwhile, the party with the Barbarian is like, "We don't need to buff you to shred face? Sweet, I'm preparing more awesome spells!" Then the Cleric says, "You're not crying for help every other round? Sweet that means I can help fight too instead of worrying about whether you're going to fight on our side the whole fight!"
What kind of fighters are you playing?
Haste did happen. The barbar just saves against it and doesn't receive the buff. Or the caster has to delay their initiative which is not something they would have to do for a fighter.So in your example the barbarian was playing poorly by raging for obvious nobodies or what.
Also, haste still happened? That is different from what you said, which is "can't do certain things"
Ok so the wizard is playing stupid...
Guess what? The Barbarian does not NEED haste like a fighter does... He can often hit for as much, if not more, than the fighter, is capable of moving and full attacking, has DR (unlike the fighter), has hihger con than the fighter, AND has a larger hit dice than the fighter.
If your theoretical situation happened, the wizard would instead spend his turn casting a CC spell/AoE to clear the way for the barbarian to charge in and kill things...
Haste effects basically the whole party. It is the highest damage spell in the game. Barbars demand that you cast it turn one or jump through hoops to cast it mid combat. Barbars go out of their way to make the spell less effective.
And this is just one buff the CRB has many more that everyone in the party but the barbar/monk takes easily without precognitive buffing.