So, an interesting thing happened to me twice in the last few weeks, so I thought I would put up a post about it and see what other peoples opinions are. I haven't needed to look at the Simple Weapon list in a long time, and I guess I just figured that it had gotten some love in Ultimate equipment... or Ultimate Combat... or somewhere...
Recently, when making a character with a friend (new player), she says to me "Can I have some throwing knives?" to which I reply "Oh yea, you can throw daggers." This is met with the look. You know the look. The look that says "Are you an idiot?".
Anyway, After giving me The Look she pulls up Google, and brings up a picture of a throwing knife.
"Ok" I say, "I Know what a throwing knife is. The thing is, they are not listed in any of the books... the closest thing would be a Dart."
Her: "A Dart?",
Me:" Yea, but a big dart... kinda like a lawn dart"
Her: "Wait... the book has stats for a giant DART but not for throwing knives?"
So yea... She was mostly just messing with me, but really, we have an entire book called "Ultimate Equipment" and we STILL don't have throwing knives (And yes, I know the concept of throwing knives in combat is basically TV-La-La-Land made up, that's not what this is about).
So the next Instance involved me trying to equip an Occultist for Skulls and Shackles.
So, I decide to make a Mwangi Occultist for the new AP my friend is running, so I look at the weapon table to try and decide what he's going to use. I grab a Spear, a few javelins, and even a blow gun... sweet, this is working great... but you know, I really want a machete... I mean, I am from the jungle. {A quick Google search latter) "Are you freaken kidding me?" the only Machete ever made for pathfinder is a magic item... that is based off of a short sword? A weapon that does PIERCING damage?... (Head-Desk)
Ok, so the first thing I want to point out, I'm not saying I want Better Simple weapons. Just more of them, to fit more varied character builds. To put it into perspective, there are 26 Total Simple Weapons (Light, One Handed, Two Handed and Ranged), two of which are effectively the same (Boar-Spear and Long spear), One is a Stick (Club) and one is Sharpened Stick (Wooden Stake). There are 28 Two Handed Martial weapons.
If you look at the simple weapon table, you will see that we have some fairly big holes in it. What do I mean? We don't have a single One Handed Slashing weapon. None. What would a One Handed Slashing simple weapon look like? Well, something like this:
Machete, 10gp, (S) 1d4, (M) 1d6, Crit: x3, 3 lbs, Slashing
I'm sure someone just said Now wait a minute, that seems a bit good for a simple weapon! But, lets look at the other One Handed Simple Weapons... The Heavy Mace does more damage (1d8) and is much more durable. The Short Spear has a 20ft range increment, and the Morning Star does more damage (d8) and does both B and P damage.
I'm also sure someone will say Those stats are close to a Hand Axe! and they would be right, except that the hand axe is a light weapon, and as such can be used with Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Another thing we seem to be missing.. a Two Handed Slashing simple weapon... So, its OK for our Simple Weapon Hero's to Bonk and Stab, but Slashing is right out?
Kaiser Blade, 8gp, (S) 1d6, (M) 2d4, Crit: x3, 8 lbs, Slashing
But wait a minute! 2d4, x3 crit! 2 Handed! I call foul, too good I say! You're right... I mean, its not like a Spear does nearly the same damage, and can be thrown, and has brace...
Seriously... Throwing Knives and a Machete Paizo, we need them. And a Kaiser Blade/Brush Hook... because farming tools are terrifying.
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There are items called machete in some pathfinder modules and they all use the short sword stats. As the short sword is a piercing weapon I'd change the machete to slashing but otherwise it fits.
The issue with that fix, is that a machete handles nothing like a short sword (It is much more like an axe in many ways), and it is a common tool used around the farm, not a martial weapon.
Yeah for machete short sword with slashing, or a sickle, would fit.
Humm, maybe I didn't word that well enough... Yes, just calling a Short Sword a Machete will work, just like calling Darts "Throwing Knives" will work... But that just kinda covers up the fact that the simple weapons list has been neglected, and that some iconic tools/weapons are missing.
By that logic we don't need 28 two handed martial weapons.
Me thinks the reason behind the lack of simple slashing weapons is that they are inherently more dangerous to the user. Bladed weapons tend to have a large cutting edge taking up the majority of the weapon. The smaller handle that comes with that leaves you with less over all control(which is where proficiency come in).
I think subbing a short sword works well for the machete if you change the damage type. It's not the same but it works well enough.
As for you wanting it to be simple, yes it is a tool but so is the scythe.
just my 2c, please take with a hefty dose of salt.
I think the reason the simple weapons list doesn't get any love is because only certain groups of people are limited to simple weapons, and they tend to not focus on using weapons. What I mean is that it's mostly casters who are limited to simple weapons, and many spend their whole careers without wielding a weapon.
So, its OK for our Simple Weapon Hero's to Bonk and Stab, but Slashing is right out? LoL doesn't that seam a bit Silly And Arbitrary?
Also, A Sickle is a simple weapon (and its mostly blade)... The Military Scythe is a bit different then the agricultural scythe. I do get what you're saying about it being more dangerous, but remember its a tool someone uses every day for work, chances are they are "proficient" with it (Granted they likely have a +0 BAB however).
I thought that as well Claxon, until recently... That thought process hurts classes like Rogues and Inquisitors.
They use it every day for work, but not for combat. The farmer is going to be using it nearly the same way every time they use it. In a combat situation it needs to be wielded in a variety of ways for it to be effective.
but right now I'm just arguing for arguments sake (mostly), it's 7am and I'm a bit tired and loopy. So good night/morning(/afternoon maybe?) and whatever you choose to do may it make the game you play more fun.
So, its OK for our Simple Weapon Hero's to Bonk and Stab, but Slashing is right out? LoL doesn't that seam a bit Silly And Arbitrary?
Also, A Sickle is a simple weapon (and its mostly blade)... The Military Scythe is a bit different then the agricultural scythe. I do get what you're saying about it being more dangerous, but remember its a tool someone uses every day for work, chances are they are "proficient" with it (Granted they likely have a +0 BAB however).
I thought that as well Claxon, until recently... That thought process hurts classes like Rogues and Inquisitors.
Eh, I think the inquisitor is fine with all the good (read as longbow) ranged options it has as well as a deities favored weapon. (I think the Inquisitor is meant to be a ranged combatant.) I will admit however, that it does hurt the Rogue. Though I already discount the Rogue as a combatant most of the time and feel their biggest use is outside of combat. And, Sneak Attack (as much as I dislike it) makes up for a lack of weapon selection. After the first few levels weapon damage dice matter little compared to static modifiers and you end up with the more important factors being critical threat range and critical damage modifier.
Yes, but when trying to explain to a new gamer, "lawn dart" is just so much easier.
Another problem with just renaming a weapon, especially with new players or new DMs, is that you remove the possibility of them finding an upgraded magic weapon in the course of an adventure (obviously experienced Dms will work around this).
I've noticed the same thing. It's the main reason why I never bother to look at the Simple Weapons list when I'm looking for a weapon to try that I have yet to use; there's simply nothing there. And quite frankly? It's annoying as frick. =l `
So, its OK for our Simple Weapon Hero's to Bonk and Stab, but Slashing is right out? LoL doesn't that seam a bit Silly And Arbitrary?
Also, A Sickle is a simple weapon (and its mostly blade)... The Military Scythe is a bit different then the agricultural scythe. I do get what you're saying about it being more dangerous, but remember its a tool someone uses every day for work, chances are they are "proficient" with it (Granted they likely have a +0 BAB however).
Yeah, it is arbitrary, but it is likely a balance issue that grandfathered in from earlier editions of D&D.
Basically, comparing the general usefulness of damage types, it goes like this: bludgeoning>slashing>piercing. This is because bludgeoning is a vital damage type to overcome DR of various common things like undead, and it can also damage swarms. On the otherhand, almost nothing has DR/piercing, except when it also has slashing as well. Slashing is somewhere in the the middle between those. While bludgeoning is the most powerful, it ends up being TOO vital to actually leave out for weapons builds (thus we have both light and one handed bludgeoning weapons). So, to make simple weapons inherently worse, they remove the 'useful, but not entirely essential' option of slashing (at least for anything that can be 2handed)
Also, axes are tools, but they are all martial. There is a difference between hitting a tree or log and hitting a moving target.
Anyway, between the spears/longspears (which are just slightly less favorable than a longsword) and a club or morning star for special cases, it is not like inquisitors are bad off when it comes to weapons, even if the chosen deity doesn't have anything good. Plus, various races give proficiencies. Heck, most core races can give you a half decent weapon like that.
For throwing knives, you want the Shuriken stats. They're not Simple, but then again, neither should throwing knives be. Not if you want to do what people do in the movies.
Alternatively, a Simple version might be
T Knife 12 gp 1d2 1d3 19–20/×2 15 ft. 1/2 lb. P
The machete and brush hook above look plausible.
This isn't a simple weapon, but what about a Pole Axe? Can't find it listed anywhere.
http://youtu.be/gcDCMhyOLAc
I'd go:
Martial 2 handed
Pole Axe 20gp 1d8 19-20/x3 5 lb. B/P/S (no reach) (trip maybe?)
Well, the game is usually not that complicated. Poleaxes might be generally lumped in with halberds.
You might say that is not 'accurate'...but need to take into consideration that not all poleaxes had the same kind of head...and the fact that having all three damage types in one weapon is over powered.
I mentioned before about the balance of damage types. Weapons usually only have one or two types (and one of them is often piercing when there are two) to maintain that. Essentially, you would remove the need for 'golf bagging' as it is pejoratively termed. Damage type is one of the only factors that remains with all melee characters throughout their entire careers, even when material and alignment fall to the wayside through sheer enhancement bonuses (sure there is magic or a magic weapon property that removes that problem...but those require resources diverted only to solve this problem; enhancement bonuses have other uses)
Also, your damage threat range is also insane. That is the same as a falcata. All three of the weapon types you are combining in that (hammer, axe, spear) are known for having a good critical modifier, not having a good critical range. Such a weapon would be extremely exotic...which would not make sense for something as simple as a poleaxe. Just use a halberd, and keep it martial.
EDIT: and for another nitpick, since I am on the subject: why is it only 5 pounds? For the most part, all of the martial pole arms weigh over 10 pounds, at least. Including the halberd (another, similarly sized weapon)
Soooooo ... she can't just buy daggers and mark them down as throwing knives on her character sheet because ... ?
Just a note: I'm a little out of it dew to pain meds (surgery), so I don't think I'm getting my point across as well as i would like.
Yes Zhayne, and in the end that's what we did. But that's not the point. Would Shuriken stats work for throwing knives? Yea... But rogues and Bards can't use Shuriken. I'm not interested in house-rule solutions (those are easy), I'm hoping that by bringing it up, maybe a future product can provide options for more interesting simple weapons.
We have almost a hundred martial/exotic weapons (which is good, because choice allows diversity), and less then 30 Simple Weapons (Which is bad); it's a trend I would like to see change, especially considering that some basic weapon types are missing from the simple weapon group.
The fact is, there is no good balance reason (other then fluff) for us not to have a 1 Handed Slashing simple weapon (regardless of what its called, I simply suggested machete), or a two handed slashing weapon (or a two handed bludgeoning weapon for that matter).
The reason I suggest adding future weapons to the simple table is because it opens them up for classes like the Rogue, Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor and Oracle. Again, I'm not asking for more powerful weapons, just a better selection.
Honestly, I really don't want more weapons. I'd prefer if they'd printed a lot less weapons. It just seems like unnecessary listing for stuff with so minor differences it's basically just flavor. It's like having eight listings of bags based on if they're made of linen, cotton, leather etc.
To me, throwing daggers should just be included in the dart listing. Have it say something like: "This represents a dart, throwing knife or other similar small throwing weapon.".
Again, I'm not asking for more powerful weapons,
That seems strange, since your example machete is just a power-up'd sickle.