The Elven Curve Blade is also in Ultimate Equipment, pg. 20.
Its an exotic weapon in all the above mentionned books.
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Its an exotic weapon in all the above mentionned books.
Elves (as you would expect) have a racial trait that allows them to wield it as a martial weapon. So unless you were planning on having a dwarf wielding this thing, that's not an insurmountable problem.
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Thanks for the help, 2 handed exotic is what got me I never thought it'd be 2 handed. Rats that could be troublesome I was thinking more what this fellow is weilding . . .
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1710953_md.jpg
Either katana or scimitar would fit the description of those weapons. Scimitar can be a finesse weapon with the Dervish Dance feat tree, but neither are light weapons so duel wielding is going to be tough.
or this
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/77/001477/ph-0.jpg
something that you could wield in one hand hmmmm.
Aldori dueling sword would fit that description, an exotic weapon but if you take EWP it becomes a finesse weapon. I don't know if it's worth it, though, as it's essentially a longsword you can finesse with.
Its an exotic weapon in all the above mentionned books.Elves (as you would expect) have a racial trait that allows them to wield it as a martial weapon. So unless you were planning on having a dwarf wielding this thing, that's not an insurmountable problem.
Half elves can also snag it with an alternate racial trait. And oddly, humans can too by choosing to be raised by an elf (and they snag some nifty martial weapons too like long sword and long bow...which makes them better at being raised by elves than half-elves in a sense). Burns up the bonus feats for both races, but allows for the use of an exotic weapon at level 1 even if they are 3/4 or 1/2 BAB.
Half elves can also snag it with an alternate racial trait. And oddly, humans can too by choosing to be raised by an elf (and they snag some nifty martial weapons too like long sword and long bow...which makes them better at being raised by elves than half-elves in a sense). Burns up the bonus feats for both races, but allows for the use of an exotic weapon at level 1 even if they are 3/4 or 1/2 BAB.Its an exotic weapon in all the above mentionned books.Elves (as you would expect) have a racial trait that allows them to wield it as a martial weapon. So unless you were planning on having a dwarf wielding this thing, that's not an insurmountable problem.
Furthermore, Tengu can pick it up as well. As well as any sword-like weapon.
However, since it's described as a thicker scimitar, I guess you could say it's from an analogue to middle eastern armories?
However, since it's described as a thicker scimitar, I guess you could say it's from an analogue to middle eastern armories?
Essentially a longer version of a scimitar, but with a thinner blade, the elven curve blade is exceptionally rare.
Not interested in dual wielding just 1 handed preferably with peircing and slashing options if possible (I know the picture I linked is dual wielding but that's just because I liked the sword). Well that and minimizing the feat tax. The aldori dueling sword seems like a good option (1 feat to use it as a light) now the next question is if you have the mythic weapon finese can you apply 1.5 times your dex bonus to damage . . . hmmmm? Thanks for pointing me to it.
Do you mean with the elven curveblade? I would say no, as the two-handed rule only applies to strength. However, you would still add +3 rather than +2 damage from Power Attack, which makes it still worthwhile using a two-handed weapon.
With any other finesse weapon I can't imagine why you'd do that; use it one-handed and learn Crane Style is THE best way to go.
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Not interested in dual wielding just 1 handed preferably with peircing and slashing options if possible (I know the picture I linked is dual wielding but that's just because I liked the sword). Well that and minimizing the feat tax. The aldori dueling sword seems like a good option (1 feat to use it as a light) now the next question is if you have the mythic weapon finese can you apply 1.5 times your dex bonus to damage . . . hmmmm? Thanks for pointing me to it.
Well, Dervish Dance lets you add dex to attack and damage with a scimitar, and its one-handed, so there is that option. As to Mythic Weapon Finesse, it probably doesn't because the only previous attempt to get Dex to damage with non-scimitars was agile weapon quality, which doesn't allow 2h, and then DD doesn't allow it to be 2-handed. But for whatever its worth, we ruled that it did in my WotR game for the Dex-pally [although, he has only tried it once, since he TWF's most of the time].
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just thinking here (don't know about crane style) but the blade description states you get 1.5 sttrength when wielding 2 handed and mythic finese states you use dexterity instead of strength for attack and damage. You can make a case for 2 hands letting you have more control when turning it to strike weakpoimts.
And that isn't completely unreasonable to assume. That is almost exactly how my GM ruled it in WotR. I would assume that it wouldn't work per RAW due to the lack of support that paizo has given Dex-melee builds in the past, but it doesn't say either way, so that is pure speculation.
It's an "ask your DM" situation that doesn't crop up that often.
Not interested in dual wielding just 1 handed preferably with peircing and slashing options if possible (I know the picture I linked is dual wielding but that's just because I liked the sword). Well that and minimizing the feat tax. The aldori dueling sword seems like a good option (1 feat to use it as a light) now the next question is if you have the mythic weapon finese can you apply 1.5 times your dex bonus to damage . . . hmmmm? Thanks for pointing me to it.Do you mean with the elven curveblade? I would say no, as the two-handed rule only applies to strength. However, you would still add +3 rather than +2 damage from Power Attack, which makes it still worthwhile using a two-handed weapon.
Since mythic material was mentioned, I might as well say that you get even more from 2 handing if you take the mythic power attack feat, since it gives +3 to damage instead of +2. That is +9 damage as soon as you hit BAB +4, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.
It's an "ask your DM" situation that doesn't crop up that often.
Yeah, I have to agree there. While I do not keep an encyclopedic knowledge of weapons memorized (and I am too lazy to check), I am fairly certain that the elven curved blade is THE finesse weapon that can be two handed for actual benefits. Everything else is light, or has some weird rules restricting it (rapier). Its unique position could be used as the crux of the argument though.
The spiked chain can also be finessed. But you don't grab a spiked chain for damage.
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The Aldori dueling sword can be two-handed for 1.5x strength to damage, and 1.5x power attack. If it's an agile weapon, or you have the Aldori Swordlord Prestige Class, then you only get 1x Dex for damage. The other ability that gives you dex to damage, dervish dance, does not allow two-handing.
Given that mythic weapon finesse does not state that you only get 1x dex damage, and doesn't stop you from two-handing, it would seem that this ability does allow you to add 1.5x your dex when two-handing a finessable weapon.
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Not interested in dual wielding just 1 handed preferably with peircing and slashing options if possible (I know the picture I linked is dual wielding but that's just because I liked the sword). Well that and minimizing the feat tax. The aldori dueling sword seems like a good option (1 feat to use it as a light) now the next question is if you have the mythic weapon finese can you apply 1.5 times your dex bonus to damage . . . hmmmm? Thanks for pointing me to it.Well, Dervish Dance lets you add dex to attack and damage with a scimitar, and its one-handed, so there is that option. As to Mythic Weapon Finesse, it probably doesn't because the only previous attempt to get Dex to damage with non-scimitars was agile weapon quality, which doesn't allow 2h, and then DD doesn't allow it to be 2-handed. But for whatever its worth, we ruled that it did in my WotR game for the Dex-pally [although, he has only tried it once, since he TWF's most of the time].
Bolded by me.
Small clarification for those who may be confused; the agile weapon quality does not disallow its use on two-handed weapons, it specifies that you do not get 1.5 times Dex bonus to damage with such weapons, and your damage is still reduced for off hand use.
The Aldori dueling sword can be two-handed for 1.5x strength to damage, and 1.5x power attack. If it's an agile weapon, or you have the Aldori Swordlord Prestige Class, then you only get 1x Dex for damage. The other ability that gives you dex to damage, dervish dance, does not allow two-handing.
Given that mythic weapon finesse does not state that you only get 1x dex damage, and doesn't stop you from two-handing, it would seem that this ability does allow you to add 1.5x your dex when two-handing a finessable weapon.
Ah, forgot about the dueling sword since most other feats and class features that relates to them require the one handed style. And just plain forgot the spiked chain completely (.....who would blame me?). Still, that is an extremely small list considering the hundred of weapons. And each of the three are exotic too. That is still fairly unique, and possibly worth the argument in their favor.
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And yes, the Elven curve blade is straight from the prologue of the LotR: the Fellowship of the Ring film. It is essentially a Nagamaki. This style of Japanese sword is introduced in UC, although it has been (con)fused with the (N)odachi, probably for simplicity and adaptability. Both of these weapons (Nodachi and Elven curve blade) appear in UE, and they have nearly identical stats....but the Nodachi is a two-handed Martial weapon, and the Elven curve blade a two-handed Exotic weapon...and the only difference is the Nodachi has slashing and piercing damage, as well as the brace weapon quality. While the curve blade has....slashing damage...?...ooh, the curve blade weighs 7 lbs. instead of 8 lbs. That is totally worth the feat...um...yeah.
...That is totally worth the feat...um...yeah.
Hey, my elven paladin kicks butt with her elven curveblade!
...That is totally worth the feat...um...yeah.Hey, my elven paladin kicks butt with her elven curveblade!
Eh, last night my paladin kicked ass with a battle aspergilium. That's not saying that I believe the battle aspergilium is an inherently superior weapon, mind!
Eh, last night my paladin kicked ass with a battle aspergilium. That's not saying that I believe the battle aspergilium is an inherently superior weapon, mind!...That is totally worth the feat...um...yeah.Hey, my elven paladin kicks butt with her elven curveblade!
LOL, well that's because paladins in general kick butt, but with the elven curveblade you get a great threat range, and it's two-handed to get the most out of Power Attack. All that static bonus adds up to make the threat range really hurt, with slightly better average damage than a falchion - and as I was playing an elf, the weapon didn't cost a feat as TheNine points out.
...That is totally worth the feat...um...yeah.Hey, my elven paladin kicks butt with her elven curveblade!
Absolutely, I forgot to mention that my Elven Anti-Paladin just hit 8th level, and with the BAB bump and his 18 Str, he now power attacks for 1d10 + 18! It's actually pretty sick, and makes me look twice at the PF Power Attack....but it's awesome!
It still stands, though, that the Martial Nodachi is identical but better than the Exotic Elven curve blade. Further, the poor Falchion does 1d6/2d4 where the Nodachi does 1d8/1d10, weighs the same, does slashing only, no brace quality....and costs 15gp more!
I hate to say it, but the inevitable power creep, though delayed in PF, eventually rears its ugly head. That all this was brought forward into Ultimate Equipment is what chaps mine....
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Many problems are solved if you simply choose to believe that a weapon doesn't gain different stats because you call it by a Japanese name.
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Longswords are designed to chop and pierce, not slash.
A longsword is often used to pierce at teh extreme of its range to attempt to hit weak points and it chops in close range. The chopping action of the longsword though is inferior to the cutting motion imployed by the Katana. The Katana is a superior SLASHING weapon (when utilized correctly and not like a stupid weeabo) due to its curvature and construction (the combination of hard exterior with softer interior metal allows for the weapon to have a sharper edge while also allowing for enough flexibility to absorb shocks without breaking). Now granted, the Europen Longsword is better equipped to pierce than a Katana.
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Longswords are designed to chop and pierce, not slash.
A longsword is often used to pierce at teh extreme of its range to attempt to hit weak points and it chops in close range. The chopping action of the longsword though is inferior to the cutting motion imployed by the Katana. The Katana is a superior SLASHING weapon (when utilized correctly and not like a stupid weeabo) due to its curvature and construction (the combination of hard exterior with softer interior metal allows for the weapon to have a sharper edge while also allowing for enough flexibility to absorb shocks without breaking). Now granted, the Europen Longsword is better equipped to pierce than a Katana.
If we don't restrict ourselves to the game term Slashing (i.e. longsword, battle axe, halberd, etc), we are in for a world of (admittedly realistic) hurt.
Longswords are designed to chop and pierce, not slash.
A longsword is often used to pierce at teh extreme of its range to attempt to hit weak points and it chops in close range. The chopping action of the longsword though is inferior to the cutting motion imployed by the Katana. The Katana is a superior SLASHING weapon (when utilized correctly and not like a stupid weeabo) due to its curvature and construction (the combination of hard exterior with softer interior metal allows for the weapon to have a sharper edge while also allowing for enough flexibility to absorb shocks without breaking). Now granted, the Europen Longsword is better equipped to pierce than a Katana.
Well, admittedly the longsword might be made with better materials (Europe is more metal rich than Japan) and techniques (comes from the room to experiment due to having more materials, which is why there are like a thousand pole arms, as well as being less isolated). Katanas are rather fragile, and I would be concerned with even trying to take on bone. They are meant more for raw flesh. Quite honrestly, I would rather go with something broader, heavier, and more study, like a falchion or scimitar.
Anyway, with 'slashing', the term just means "can you disconnect throat A from head B?". The better 'slashing' that comes from the curved design is represented with the higher critical threat range.
Anyway, the long sword's damage types: yeah, it is a bit strange. It is mostly a grandfathered thing that came from a time where the actual real life weapon and the image of the design and technique the game designers were thinking of were separated by a fairly wide margin. Basically, they are basing the weapon off of 50's-80's movies more than anything, most likely. And thus there is the idea that slashing is more dramatic than piercing. Considering the progression of the basic blades (dagger, short sword, long sword, greatsword), it is fairly arbitrary, yes. Paizo is showing some degree of change, since they added the gladius, which does piercing and slashing, but it is literally called out as a short sword by its mechanical description.
Not that this is much of a problem though. Piercing is the weakest damage type, and rarely has dedicated DR for it. Unless you are fighting Rakshasa, or going underwater without a lot of spells to help you, then you are not missing out on much more than flavor. Ask your GM if you could do some dramatic stab/slash combo thing for crits, just to add flare.
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Longswords are designed to chop and pierce, not slash.
A longsword is often used to pierce at teh extreme of its range to attempt to hit weak points and it chops in close range. The chopping action of the longsword though is inferior to the cutting motion imployed by the Katana. The Katana is a superior SLASHING weapon (when utilized correctly and not like a stupid weeabo) due to its curvature and construction (the combination of hard exterior with softer interior metal allows for the weapon to have a sharper edge while also allowing for enough flexibility to absorb shocks without breaking). Now granted, the Europen Longsword is better equipped to pierce than a Katana.
Well, admittedly the longsword might be made with better materials (Europe is more metal rich than Japan) and techniques (comes from the room to experiment due to having more materials, which is why there are like a thousand pole arms, as well as being less isolated). Katanas are rather fragile, and I would be concerned with even trying to take on bone. They are meant more for raw flesh. Quite honrestly, I would rather go with something broader, heavier, and more study, like a falchion or scimitar.
Anyway, with 'slashing', the term just means "can you disconnect throat A from head B?". The better 'slashing' that comes from the curved design is represented with the higher critical threat range.
Anyway, the long sword's damage types: yeah, it is a bit strange. It is mostly a grandfathered thing that came from a time where the actual real life weapon and the image of the design and technique the game designers were thinking of were separated by a fairly wide margin. Basically, they are basing the weapon off of 50's-80's movies more than anything, most likely. And thus there is the idea that slashing is more dramatic than piercing. Considering the progression of the basic blades (dagger, short sword, long sword, greatsword), it is fairly arbitrary, yes. Paizo is showing some degree of change, since...
Katanas are anything but fragile...
They were meant to go through armor (Lamalar Scale/Plate armor)and boen with ease. Many tests have shown time and again that a Katana is VERY good at cutting.
As for the technique, the Katana is actually made with a much more advanced technique than most European weapons. The katana is made with a soft steel core with a stronger, harder "sheath" around the core to allow the Katana to maintain a very sharp edge while also having flexibility and durability to resist shock.
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Katanas are anything but fragile...
They were meant to go through armor (Lamalar Scale/Plate armor)and boen with ease. Many tests have shown time and again that a Katana is VERY good at cutting.
As for the technique, the Katana is actually made with a much more advanced technique than most European weapons. The katana is made with a soft steel core with a stronger, harder "sheath" around the core to allow the Katana to maintain a very sharp edge while also having flexibility and durability to resist shock.
This. A good katana could be bent 45 degrees and spring back undamaged, they were anything but fragile; they could deal with bone easily - a common test of a katana was how many people it could cut clean through in one stroke. While they were difficult to thrust with, they could thrust effectively, though probably not as effectively as a European arming sword (the real name of the weapon in D&D called the longsword). It's interesting to note that as technology improved, the European "longsword" that started as a broadsword, become the longsword, and evolved into the rapier (although it wasn't always called that, just as medieval "longswords" weren't actually called long swords).
In the same way, the katana evolved from earlier weapons. The difference in evolution of the two weapons were related to differences in armour: in Japan, the emphasis was on the weapon, not on the armour; so far as I am aware shields were never used. In Europe, emphasis was on armour, and weapons were made to defeat the armour rather than to use on un-armoured or lightly armoured foes. When armour became too expensive to be common on the battlefield European swords started getting curved, and some of the sabres and falchions used by Napoleonic era cavalry were fearsome weapons indeed. Interestingly, though, the thrusting sword made a comeback when it was realised that using the horse's momentum made it very effective. By the time of the Great War the British at least were using thrusting swords again - very effectively when they were not being mowed down by machine-gun fire.
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in Japan, the emphasis was on the weapon, not on the armour; so far as I am aware shields were never used.
Shields were used; I can get you pictures if you like. Very similar in design to the Roman centurian's shield.
The reason you never hear about them is because the samurai didn't use them much. Samurai, traditionally, were mounted archers first and swordsman second. It's hard to use a shield when you're firing a bow. Shields were equipment of the lower classes. Later, with traditional two-handed sword technique, again it's hard to use a shield. Finally, by the time we usually think of "samurai" (Edo period), even armor was largely obsolete because wars were a thing of the past....
Cool, I didn't know that!
Cool, I didn't know that!
The more you know xD
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in Japan, the emphasis was on the weapon, not on the armour; so far as I am aware shields were never used.Shields were used; I can get you pictures if you like. Very similar in design to the Roman centurian's shield.
The reason you never hear about them is because the samurai didn't use them much. Samurai, traditionally, were mounted archers first and swordsman second. It's hard to use a shield when you're firing a bow. Shields were equipment of the lower classes. Later, with traditional two-handed sword technique, again it's hard to use a shield. Finally, by the time we usually think of "samurai" (Edo period), even armor was largely obsolete because wars were a thing of the past....
In Okinawa, there was a traditional short spear and shield style called Tinbe-Rochin. And the shield was often made from a turtle shell (it could traditionally be made with other stuff too...but come on. Turtle shells!)
Anyway, back to the subject of comparing swordsmithing techniques: It is not like Japan was the only country with pattern welding. It was used as early as the 2nd century by the Celts, for many of the same reasons (poor quality of materials from the metallurgical techniques of their day).
Admittedly though, the Middle East and India had both sides of Eurasia beat with their wootz steel. Just trying to read any details about that stuff sounds like an advanced chemistry course. And if television has taught me anything, it is that long scienc-y words means things are better-er. It is Science!
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Anyway, back to the subject of comparing swordsmithing techniques: It is not like Japan was the only country with pattern welding. It was used as early as the 2nd century by the Celts, for many of the same reasons (poor quality of materials from the metallurgical techniques of their day).
My understanding is that pattern welding was mostly a decorative technique among the Celts. What makes katanas special is not simply pattern welding, but the combination of softer and harder steels in the specific configuration -- "a soft steel core with a stronger, harder "sheath" around the core to allow the Katana to maintain a very sharp edge while also having flexibility and durability" -- that made it a precision weapon.
The fact that it wasn't used to open cans helped too. It's much easier to keep a sword sharp when you're cutting people and not blocks of iron.
My understanding is that pattern welding was mostly a decorative technique among the Celts. What makes katanas special is not simply pattern welding, but the combination of softer and harder steels in the specific configuration -- "a soft steel core with a stronger, harder "sheath" around the core to allow the Katana to maintain a very sharp edge while also having flexibility and durability" -- that made it a precision weapon.
The fact that it wasn't used to open cans helped too. It's much easier to keep a sword sharp when you're cutting people and not blocks of iron.
I'm not going to argue the pattern welding. I do not know enough on the subject to argue.
But what I can say is this: while flesh might not be too hard on a blade, I'd imagine bone could do a number on them. I could even jokingly say that bones have similar advantages as katanas since they are hard, but covered in a soft flesh sheath to help slow down blows and absorb impact.
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Even Japanese swordsmiths knew about Damascus steel. Japanese swordsmithing was amazing, but that is true of many places, and it was definitely not more advanced than the techniques developed in southern Europe.
The longsword is a stabbing weapon, I honestly don't know whether that's reason enough to make it a piercing weapon. But if it's a slashing weapon, then a shortsword should be, too.
The katana in blade type is exactly a compromise between the scimitar/shamsir and the jian/ken/arming sword. The difference between a katana and a saber resides mainly in the hilt. They certainly could cut through bone, but I wouldn't go out of my way to aim for the skull if I were using one.
Samurai could and did use shields. My own impression, from reading various sources, is that they didn't use them as much as Europeans because they didn't engage in as much warfare against stone castles, and because they favored mounted archery over the lance charge (though they had that, too). Also, whereas a European knight might use the boss of his (broken) shield as a parrying weapon and a weapon, the samurai used specialized bracers. Europeans used broad, wooden shields to stop arrow fire; samurai mostly relied on special capes and skirts, along with specialized siege shields. Samurai, like Europe's great longbowmen, also made use of specialized warheads that could easily penetrate shields and light armor, leaving the body armor as the main protection against arrows. I think many people would be disappointed to the extent to which samurai relied on lances, spears, bows, axes, mail, European-forged breastplates and corselets, guns, and clubs.
But what I can say is this: while flesh might not be too hard on a blade, I'd imagine bone could do a number on them. I could even jokingly say that bones have similar advantages as katanas since they are hard, but covered in a soft flesh sheath to help slow down blows and absorb impact.
Er, you are aware of how swords were traditionally tested? They were tested to see if they could cut through the dead bodies of convicted criminals -- and sometimes the live bodies of lower-class people -- with single strokes. A katana that couldn't do this, or that was noticeably damaged in the testing process, was considered inadequate. A good sword would be rated (marked on the blade) by the number of stacked bodies it could cut through; there's at least one sword known with a five-body rating.
That test was not routinely performed, not the least because it could in fact shatter the blade.
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I looked it up on Wikipedia, and more importantly, the sources Wikipedia cited. Rice straw, the top layers of tatami mats, bamboo, and thin steel sheets were all used. Corpses and convicted criminals were mentioned, with two sources given. One source was "Legends and Stories about the Japanese Sword". Please note that is not "Facts and True Things." The second source cited no sources of its own, and claims that swords were found with markings such as "5 bodies with hip cut" had no citations.
There is no proof beyond stories and more stories that katana were actually tested on bodies. This is because they were not, in fact, used on corpses for the exact reason RJGrady gave.
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Except that I have seen a test done for TV using pig carcases (with the bones still in!) to see how many a katana could cut through. The blade they tested cut through two and a half, and importantly DID NOT BREAK - indeed the weilder was very confident that it wouldn't break. Shattering katana's seems to be something of a myth, or else was something that happened to faulty blades which could, you know, be why they tested them? Just throwing it out there.
When the katana made it's appearance it was tested in battle, and every blade that was made was issued was returned unbroken. Maybe some that were not made right failed their test and broke before they issued them, and maybe there were some smiths in Japan that made inferior blades, but that's a different matter that I think every culture's swords has faced.
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I looked it up on Wikipedia, and more importantly, the sources Wikipedia cited. Rice straw, the top layers of tatami mats, bamboo, and thin steel sheets were all used. Corpses and convicted criminals were mentioned, with two sources given. One source was "Legends and Stories about the Japanese Sword". Please note that is not "Facts and True Things." The second source cited no sources of its own, and claims that swords were found with markings such as "5 bodies with hip cut" had no citations.
A few minutes on Google finds photographs of the actual swords with actual markings.
There are "tameshigiri" documents that describe exactly where the cuts were to be performed on anatomical diagrams that look disturbingly like butchers markings.
Wikipedia is a great spot to start research but a lousy stopping place, and I'm truly impressed by your ability to discern the contents of books from reading their titles. But if you actually read the books - I refer you specifically to Samurai: The Weapons and Spirit of the Japanese Warrior, Clive Sinclaire, Globe Pequot, 2004, ISBN 1-59228-720-4, ISBN 978-1-59228-720-8 P.55, which is available as footnote 2 in Wikipedia's "Tameshigiri" article, you'll see some historical documentation. I could point you to a number of other books describing the practice.
Perhaps more interesting is that we've found actual bodies that were the subject of sword-testing. This paper also includes a reproduction of an Edo-period tameshigiri diagram used as part of the appraisal process so that the seller knew exactly what this testing entailed and how much it affected the value.
And the whole point of testing is, in fact, to learn whether a blade is likely to shatter in combat, because if so,.... you don't want that blade.