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There is certainly something to be said for reading through the scenario before you run it. My first table had a good mix of skill and combat types and everyone had a part to play. My second table I explicitly warned them that this was a skill mission more than a combat mission and they chose their characters thusly; they had a good time and enjoyed the game.
Read the scenario before you run it.
Read it twice.
If the table of characters you have looks to be poorly suited to the scenario you have, tell them. If they choose to play with the characters they have, especially in a 1-5 tier where you could easily start a new character or play a pre-gen, then at least they went in with open eyes.
I did, many times.
Oh, I explained it. Told them that it will be a skill heavy game and that they have the possibility of never raising a weapon. They were excited about it.
I am under the assumption that if there are at least 4 players, the GM can't run a pregen.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I did, many times.
Oh, I explained it. Told them that it will be a skill heavy game and that they have the possibility of never raising a weapon. They were excited about it.
I am under the assumption that if there are at least 4 players, the GM can't run a pregen.
I'm sorry to hear that. You warned them, they chose to proceed. It's too bad, but you did your due diligence.
And I meant the players could play as a pre-gen. The iconic bard or rogue might be perfect for this. And then they could start a new character to have as a back-up. In case their current character meets Bonekeep or fails a will save...
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Yeah. Even if the party was at sub-tier 4-5 I could easily see a 1st level bard carry this table thru the mod. It would be kind of funny to see 4 PCs of level 4 and 5 trying to assist the 1st level to get them thru the mission.I did, many times.
Oh, I explained it. Told them that it will be a skill heavy game and that they have the possibility of never raising a weapon. They were excited about it.
I am under the assumption that if there are at least 4 players, the GM can't run a pregen.
I'm sorry to hear that. You warned them, they chose to proceed. It's too bad, but you did your due diligence.
And I meant the players could play as a pre-gen. The iconic bard or rogue might be perfect for this. And then they could start a new character to have as a back-up. In case their current character meets Bonekeep or fails a will save...
I don't like telling people what or how they should play a character (unless they are doing something illegal) so it never occurred to me to offer up a pregen. I have each level of each class in a 3-ring binder in case of walk-ups. I feel quite ashamed.
Yeah, that would have been hilarious to see a lvl 1 show out a table of higher ups.
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I had a great time playing this a couple of weeks ago. Book swarm, John, really? (OK, it was awesome.) (That was our only combat.)
We were warned that it was "not a combat-heavy" scenario and we all brought characters that turned out just perfect. A diviner, a Thassalonian specialist, and an arcanist walk into a library... Heck, even the samurai was Order of the Tome. (Complete coincidence but hysterical.)
I will say that sometimes warning people just doesn't help. I GMed the Hellknight's Feast at a con recently and warned the players over, and over, and over, that it was a very social scenario. I even suggested maybe a pregen Lem didn't look too bad. Ended up with 4 "I hit things" types, 1 cleric, and 1 paladin. None of whom had put points into social skills. It didn't stop the player of the fighter (with a negative int mod) from complaining bitterly about how unfair it was that none of the skill checks were things he could make. Some people just want to play the character they "need to level."
His completely serious response was "That's completely different! Having a social scenario with no way for an effective combat class to bypass it is just unfair." I don't want to go all "he was in the wrong," the point is that some people just aren't good at seeing things from another angle.
Developer
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I had a great time playing this a couple of weeks ago. Book swarm, John, really? (OK, it was awesome.) (That was our only combat.)
We were warned that it was "not a combat-heavy" scenario and we all brought characters that turned out just perfect. A diviner, a Thassalonian specialist, and an arcanist walk into a library... Heck, even the samurai was Order of the Tome. (Complete coincidence but hysterical.)
I remember hearing about that game...
** spoiler omitted **
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I had a great time playing this a couple of weeks ago. Book swarm, John, really? (OK, it was awesome.) (That was our only combat.)
We were warned that it was "not a combat-heavy" scenario and we all brought characters that turned out just perfect. A diviner, a Thassalonian specialist, and an arcanist walk into a library... Heck, even the samurai was Order of the Tome. (Complete coincidence but hysterical.)
I remember hearing about that game...
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
Didn't somebody
The worst I've seen in that scenario--I had a witch at my table who, at the "TSA checkpoint" was found to have brought eight different grenades, which were confiscated.
That witch was a great example of a character that turned completely around, though. After he made a mockery of himself and the Andoran faction repeatedly in that scenario (in further ways than in the spoiler), he completely devoted resources to becoming a better spokesman and presenting himself better. The next time there was a RP-heavy scenario, he got together with some of the same characters who played Blakros Matrimony with him and they were astounded by the transformation. He was giving speeches and convincing people left and right.
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Did the players have no other characters to use?
This should really only be considered an exception, not the rule.
Well, to be fair, these scenarios should come with "suggested classes to bring". It would help especially with The Disappeared, Blakros Matrimony, Wardstone Patrol and Library of the Lion. Dare I suggest Paizo to start using tags to categorize scenarios? Combat, puzzle, roleplaying, journey, urban etc.
This wouldn't matter if players made balanced characters.
I didn't like it because it's very one-sided for certain types of characters (and players) but more importantly, my players didn't have the fun I had hoped for. I actually feel sad that this is the scenario that gave me my first star in PFS.
While it's not good that your players didn't have fun with the scenario, it sounds like it's really on them, unless they're super brand new to Pathfinder.
At the end of the scenario, did anyone ask "what did we need to do to make that game better?" because "being able to make knowledge, linguistics and perception checks" isn't outrageous, at all. They had a really unfortunate choice of classes there - a near complete lack of skills I'm guessing - and it's not at all fair to blame the scenario or the author. That is Pathfinder 101 going on there.
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Amusing note when I played:
** spoiler omitted **
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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** spoiler omitted **Amusing note when I played:
** spoiler omitted **
oh it's my inner GM/sadist. I just thought it would be funny that they said "Samiel, you work on picking that lock, we'll case this room" and I (having ran it) knew the swarm would be there. Images of "Oh gods it's bleeding me! It's bleeding me!" while Samiel is humming to himsefl, working on the locks some distance away...
And I'd not be metagaming avoiding the fight, since I wasn't the one who decided.
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Plus I haven't been at a table that didn't adore glorymane.
Well, we had quite a few problems with him. We initially thought he was going to breathe fire or something, so we were kind of rude, and our Diplomacy checks failed (in part because I later just walked up to him without a plan and stuttered, "Hello, you have beautiful hair mane," and had no idea who the Lion Blades were). It was really frustrating and eventually we just had the druid-barbarian make an ego check (she had nuts Will).
Just played this with a Grand Lodge character in PBP format, enjoyed it, but found the cypher odd. I worked it out via guess work, but my translation was slightly off...
KYVWKCECOOMIMECFGCQFC
HVSTHZBZLLJFJBZCDZNCZ
MAXYMEGEQQOKOGEHIESHE
HASTHEBELLOFOBECDENCE
Sure I made some obvious error, but I am curious what it was.
So there is a mistake in the scenario?
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Not the scenario, just one letter in the player handout.
It reads:
K-Y-V-W-K-C-E-C-O-O-M-I-M-E-C-F-G-C-Q-F-C
Where it should read:
K-Y-V-W-K-C-E-C-O-O-M-I-M-E-C-G-G-C-Q-F-C
But it slipped through editing, cause its just one letter, which when decrypted goes to either I or D. Not a huge impact, but it makes more sense with Obedience instead of Obecience.
~NPEH
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I played this a couple nights ago and thought it was a fantastic scenario. Ou party had my conversion iquisitor of Asmodeus, a bard, a heavy hitting druid, a paladin, a rogue and an arcane caster. Mostly level 3s but one level 1 so we played down.
Highlights included Glorymane speaking to us after the gnome caster tried shouting the lines off of the paintings at it, the book swarm leading to all manner of silliness, and the rogue, after checking for traps EVERYWHERE, not bothering to check in the one place there was a trap.
I lucked out and made my check to realise what book I needed for the Cheliax reward, and a lot of work from the Grand lodge players (plus a hint about de-cyphering the note after a successful INT check) got them the reward too. We nearly blew it with deception points, getting just barely the number needed since some of the characters were more dilligent about trying to leave no trace than others.
The whole table seemed to have fun, and I just hope that when I eventually run this myself I can do as good a job as our GM did.
Ah, fun scenario, but that player handout error gave me a real headache! In our run through we had a very skill orientated party, made several 30+ skill checks for both knowledge and social skills and did not get even a sniff of combat - which I liked. I was running a newly created elven Investigator and played up, a great introduction to the society as he was the junior member and got to see some very impressive Pathfinders at work, and was even able to contribute quite nicely and being the only Grand Lodge character had the cyphers to handle. We had three Taldor faction PCs which was great.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I've been prepping this the past couple of days as I am running it tomorrow out our local game store.
From a GM perspective, I didn't think prepping it was that difficult, really, but there are an awful lot of mechanics to study up, prepare, and learn. For the scenario to go off well, the GM has to know those pretty well, and I think that's a challenge.
I would also add that I am very disappointed in the editing of this scenario. I have noticed this in a number of Season 5 scenarios, but the poor editing (typos, grammatical errors, etc.) is just too great. In this particular scenario, one typo (relating to the cipher) can result in a lot of wasted time.
I do like the fact, however, that this scenario can be done without a single combat. It's nice to have a chance to play one that can be just all role-playing and skill checks. Considering the vast majority of scenarios I have seen are of the more traditional "more-combat-than-not" variety, it's nice to have something like this. No, the "strong and silent" type who is combat-centered may not like this (but reading the description of the scenario should indicate it probably won't suit that character), but it gives other types a chance to really shine.
I'll know more after I run it tomorrow, but from a reading and preparing standpoint, it looks quite good.
-Mark
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I was asured by my judge for this that there is no way to avoid the encounter with the swarm, as there is no way to detect it as a swarm before you open the case it is in. (we had high Perception, and detect spells going and were still surprised by the swarm).
The scenario itself gives characters a chance to notice the swarm.
And it's not necessary to face the swarm because...
So, either your GM or I misread or misunderstood it, but I am pretty sure that what I have posted in the spoiler is correct.
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With a successful DC 20 Perception check, a PC
can notice that loose pages in that case seem to flutter
slightly, almost as though a draft were blowing over
them. If they open that cabinet, the books animate and
rush out as a swarm to attack as the PCs attempt skill
checks to find texts.
This medium room contains the Generals’
Logbooks text, A Silver Horn, and two random clues.
The sheer amount of valuable information in this room
is considerable, and not only can the PCs use Appraise
to look for texts here, but all skill checks made to find
information here receives a +2 circumstance bonus. One
of the animated books contains one of these four clues
determined at random (including the two set texts). If
at least half of the damage dealt to the book swarm was
acid, fire, or slashing and don’t magically repair any of
the damage, that clue is destroyed.
Emphasis is mine in those quotes.
You CAN see the swarm, but it's up to the players if they want to open that cabinet or not. I'm reading this as it's possible to avoid it, but not very likely since they are looking for clues and those books seem pretty suspicious and they probably want to find as many clues as possible.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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You CAN see the swarm, but it's up to the players if they want to open that cabinet or not. I'm reading this as it's possible to avoid it, but not very likely since they are looking for clues and those books seem pretty suspicious and they probably want to find as many clues as possible.
Correct. If the texts required for the mission are not in that cabinet, they may well skip it (while some groups may, indeed, seek out every single clue they can get, others may just get the required ones and move on.)
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I'm going to go ahead and add a little extra info into how I'm reading that first part. When you walk into that room and you make the perception check, you can see the pages are fluttering as if there's a draft. That doesn't allow you to identify that it's a swarm or that the books are going to attack you, just that there's something up with that cabinet.
When I ran it the first time, the person asked me if there was a draft in the room, I said no, so that made him curious and he opened the cabinet, thus triggering the swarm.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I'm going to go ahead and add a little extra info into how I'm reading that first part. When you walk into that room and you make the perception check, you can see the pages are fluttering as if there's a draft. That doesn't allow you to identify that it's a swarm or that the books are going to attack you, just that there's something up with that cabinet.
I completely agree with you on this. In and of itself, the perception check doesn't allow you to determine that it's a swarm, but if they determine there is no breeze, they may try other ways to discern what it is. But the perception check gives them the chance to start down on that road.
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this: "With a successful DC 20 Perception check, a PC can notice that loose pages in that case seem to flutter slightly, almost as though a draft were blowing over them."
was presented to us as "Like there is a secret passage behind the books in the case - which is attached to the wall and you can't see behind it" - so we figured we had found a secret door with the hi perception check. We checked for magic and traps - and finding none, we opened the case. At the time it felt kind of like we were being punished for the high perception - if we hadn't noticed the flutter, we wouldn't have gotten the monster. Which caused me to wonder if that was why people were saying this scenario might have no combats - that to miss this combat you just had...
Personally, how I would play this is in two different ways. If the PCs notice the case, I'll give them what they see, and I'd let them roll a knowledge arcana to try and identify what's going on, then let them choose if they want to include that cabinet in their search or not of the full room.
If they didn't notice the swarm in the cabinet and just blindly search the room, I'd ask where they are searching and if they specify they are searching the cabinets, then I'd trigger the swarm as well.
By doing it this way, you're not punishing the high perception checks and they have the option to avoid the combat if they want.
TOZ, I'm not sure... I would imagine that they would since it's a bunch of animated books. They do have construct traits, so you might be able to justify that to give them a magic aura.
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flutter slightly, almost as though a draft were blowing over them."
was presented to us as "Like there is a secret passage behind the books in the case - which is attached to the wall and you can't see behind it" - so we figured we had found a secret door with the hi perception check. We checked for magic and traps - and finding none, we opened the case. At the time it felt kind of like we were being punished for the high perception - if we hadn't noticed the flutter, we wouldn't have gotten the monster. Which caused me to wonder if that was why people were saying this scenario might have no combats - that to miss this combat you just had...
As the judge for this table I would like to point out that I read verbatim from the modules. The players made there own incorrect assumptions as to what the flutter might mean. I made no reference to a secret passage, only the flutter and possible draft. It was a player who suggested the secret passage.
The reason why I made the comment afterwards that "the combat is basically unavoidable" is because most PFS players are unlikely to leave an area unsearched without good reason, especially after a perception check yields a curious result.
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I just ran Library of the Lion this past weekend at a local con, and I've got to say that this is probably my favorite 1-5 scenario that I've been able to run so far. I really like that the PC's were able to avoid all of the combats in the scenario by either being diplomatic or by employing common sense. The party split up to search rooms, and was able to make pretty good time, I did run for seven, so that was a large part of the time constraint being a non-issue. The party liked Glorymane, I tried to give him a Sean Connery-ish accent, they succeeded at making him friendly, and found the shield at the end. I gave the party the idea that the final room was out of the way enough that they might be able to take a couple of choice items, mainly the book and the shield, that it would a long enoughtime before they discovered that anything had been taken, so long as they didn't strip the room bare. Concerning the book swarm, I let them detect magic to find it, and a DC 20 Knowledge Arcana to identify it for what it was. The players seemed to like the scenario, as well.
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Interestingly enough when I played this, the very next slot I played Destiny of the Sands part 1. Over the course of 2 mods we had a total of 1 combat encounter. That's not something you see every day in PFS.
I had a very similar experience -- I played it back to back with The Disappeared. Just like you, one combat total in two games. It was odd, but cool.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Keep the reports and questions coming! We're still watching!
This has been ran twice by other local GM's since I ran it the first time. Both times by players of my original game.
Apparently one table went off and people really enjoyed it.
The other table the players felt they were doing well, but ultimately they didn't find the secret door to the deepest rooms, and didn't take care to hide their infiltration so didn't fair well at the end despite expressing pride over their "excellent job" just before the results come down.
When I ran this the first time, my party also felt they did an excellent job (when by the metrics they didn't.)
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Question about Glorymane if transfer into the shield and purchased. A regular lion shield can be commanded to attack as a free action, and it does so immediately. But glorymane is intelligent, so could a character order it to attack the adjacent caster when they cast a spell (as a readied action)?
I would suspect that if this were allowed, and the readied action didn't happen (ion my example above, the caster full withdraws instead of casts, for instance), the command would still count as one if the activations for the day. Furthermore, as you can't ready a full round action if you have iterative BAB attacks, glorymane would get just the first attack for the readied action
Thoughts?
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Question about Glorymane if transfer into the shield and purchased. A regular lion shield can be commanded to attack as a free action, and it does so immediately. But glorymane is intelligent, so could a character order it to attack the adjacent caster when they cast a spell (as a readied action)?
I would suspect that if this were allowed, and the readied action didn't happen (ion my example above, the caster full withdraws instead of casts, for instance), the command would still count as one if the activations for the day. Furthermore, as you can't ready a full round action if you have iterative BAB attacks, glorymane would get just the first attack for the readied action
Thoughts?
An intelligent item gets to act on its own initiative. So it could ready its own action. If you ready a spell and never get to cast it, is the spell gone? no, so similarly, Glorymane would not lose one of its charge for readying if the cause for readying does not happen. I agree with you that if the shield readies, however, it just does one attack (and loses the iteratives, if applicable)