[GM]New campaign - allow psion or not?

[eleclipse]

Hello to all,

After the ending of my last campaign i'm working on a new one, a player of mine asked me if he can do the psion using the manual of dreamscarred press.

Personally i had, as a master, a really bad experince with psion, and with this particular player, in a 3.5 campaign.

It was just too powerfull, minimizing, maximizing, stopping time again and again and so on, the major problem aside is sheer power was that it make the majority of the party feel inferior, a lot (and they aren't noob at building characters).

So the question is, does these pathfinder manuals fit well in the system without replacing the standard casting class and without unbalance?

Also, in the case i decide to let him, are there some mythic manual for psion?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[haruhiko88]

It really depends on the flavor of your campaign. Also psionics are fairly balanced they just have a lot of shock potential. The dreamscarred press psion is pretty good. You can view it on d20pfsrd and it's kind of neat. As far as I know dreamscarred press has not written any mythic options, but you could use the archmage and just go through the caster/psionics veil. Maybe delay the choosing of a psion until the new ultimage psionics comes out or until paizo releases its psychic magic book whenever that is.

[Blackstorm]

Personally I don't like psion. Take into account, aside personal preferences, that you must learn a whole new ruleset, if you allow the psion, and you need as well to reshape your world taking into account the psion npcs and mosnters. So, I you don't dislike the psions, you have sufficient spare tame to reshape the world and learn the new rules, and if you like the dreamscarred press work, you can go along with them.

[meatrace]

It's not any different than the 3.5 rules. By which I mean, it's fine, Psionics aren't OP, and all that jazz. At high levels of play they can be ALMOST as annoying as a wizard (time stop is THEIR shtick, remember).

From what I understand, the guys over at Dreamscarred Press were working on mythic stuff for psions, but I haven't seen any of it yet.

[Remy Balster]

If you have to ask, don't do it. Psions add a whole new layer to the game, and it isn't regular fantasy adventure... it is the kind of fantasy that borders on scifi or paranormal genres.

It pulls your Pathfinder game out of the genre a little. Then again, so do gunslinger. And sometimes alchemists... in their own ways...

Iono, up to you. Your game should have a certain feel to it, do psions fit that feel? If the answer to that is a big ol No... tell the player that you don't want to include psionics in your fantasy game, and that they're free to play an arcane caster with enchantment spells and mage hand if they want.

[Unruly]

As someone who had to fight for the right to play a psion in a 3.x game, let me just say that most of the complaints were because of misunderstood psionics rules that led to players getting away with more than what was allowed. Now, I can't say anything about the Pathfinder psionics from DSP, since I don't own a copy yet, but from what I've read here they're pretty much the same way. Also, unlike what Blackstorm says, you don't really need to reshape the whole world if you don't want to. Just use the default assumption that psionics are subject to the same things as magic and you'll be pretty much set. You may want to add a few things here and there, but you wouldn't be forced to at all.

I won't say "allow it" or "disallow it." What I will say is that you should ask to borrow the book, curl up with it on the couch for a few hours, and get to know the system. Then make your decision. Don't be like so many who just take one short look and say "absolutely not ever." Give it as fair of a chance as you'd give any new class.

[Taku Ooka Nin]

Is it 3.5 material?
Yes?
Ban.
You're playing Pathfinder, not 3.5, and if your player cannot find an equivalent of what he wants to play in Pathfinder then tough.
You can, of course, change the flavor of characters while leaving them mechanically the same.
Perhaps he might like the alternative to the standard magic type, and will want to jump on the Words of Power magic type.
It is essentially the same, but I think allows him to effectively create his own spells as opposed to using the pre-made spells.

It can be extremely interesting, and in the right hands can lead to very inventive magic. Best part is that it is Pathfinder Official errata from Ultimate Magic.

[Eltacolibre]

Dreamscarred press actually did a very good job of the psionic system for pathfinder. Contrary to popular beliefs Psionic are not the most powerful. It is just easier to use in general which I think is the issue most people have with it.

If you use psionics, please use magic-psionic transparency, it makes thing so much easier when you don't have to worry about spell resistance vs psionic resistance. It is often a trap dm gets in when they want to make psionic different in their campaign. Doing so often mean the psion can go nova on golems and the like. If you simply make that magic and psionic are the same thing, you never have to worry about situation like this anymore.

[Gator the Unread]

Eltacolibre wrote:

Dreamscarred press actually did a very good job of the psionic system for pathfinder. Contrary to popular beliefs Psionic are not the most powerful. It is just easier to use in general which I think is the issue most people have with it.

What he said.

Eltacolibre wrote:

If you use psionics, please use magic-psionic transparency, it makes thing so much easier when you don't have to worry about spell resistance vs psionic resistance. It is often a trap dm gets in when they want to make psionic different in their campaign. Doing so often mean the psion can go nova on golems and the like. If you simply make that magic and psionic are the same thing, you never have to worry about situation like this anymore.

What he said, again.

What it boils down to is psions are no more powerful than a wizard or sorcerer. Different? Yes, but not more powerful. You will have to be familiar with the ins and outs of psionics, so that may be a turn off.

Don't let the class's power level be the reason you don't allow the class. If you disallow it, make sure its for a flavor reason. I disallowed several feats, and classes, strictly because they altered the feel of the game I was trying to present.

[Taku Ooka Nin]

Eltacolibre wrote:

[...]please use magic-psionic transparency [...] you don't have to worry about spell resistance vs psionic resistance. [...]Doing so often mean the psion can go nova on golems and the like. If you simply make that magic and psionic are the same thing, you never have to worry about situation like this anymore.

Psion: "I am destroying the golem with the power locked in my mind!"

Wizard: "Isn't that the same thing I do reskinned?"
Cleric: "Don't forget about me! My DPR is good!"
The Psion and Wizard laugh.

Remember kids, "magic" be it arcane, divine, or psionic, is just another unexplainable source of power. Do do what Eltacolibre suggests, and treat psionics as just another form of magic to make it a trio of magic types.

Hell "Arcane" just means unknown or esoteric. Divine means it comes from higher beings--but doesn't specify the means by which the power gets there exactly.-- Psionic just means it comes from the power of the mind while not exactly explaining how it translates to actually doing what it does.
In short all three are unexplainable to a large degree, so just treat them all as the exact same thing: "magic".

[eleclipse]

Thanks to all for the advices!

The psion would fit well in the campaign so that's not a problem.

Learning a whole new set of rules is not a big problem too.

I totally agree that, would i allow it, magic-psionic transparency is a must.

At this point i think i'll have at least a read of the basic of these conversion and see how it goes.

Thanks again to all!

[Kryzbyn]

Just remember that there is a level cap on how many PP can be spent to augment a power, and you should be fine :)

[Drejk]

Step 1: Read the psionic rules, especially focusing on differences between Dreamscarred Press Pathfinder rules and 3.5 (if you know 3.5 rules).

Step 2: If you feel comfortable with ruling over psionics after learning/refreshing your knowledge about them allow them.

[Rerednaw]

eleclipse wrote:

Thanks to all for the advices!

The psion would fit well in the campaign so that's not a problem.
Learning a whole new set of rules is not a big problem too.
I totally agree that, would i allow it, magic-psionic transparency is a must.
At this point i think i'll have at least a read of the basic of these conversion and see how it goes.

Thanks again to all!

I agree with your call. :)

Based on your OP it sounds like the player's playstyle is the issue. There are many classes that can be problematical to a core assumption (4x 15 point buy i.e. wizard, cleric, rogue, fighter) campaign. 3rd party sources tend to exacerbate the situation by simply increasing the mix of options available.

Miss-interpretation of the rules "Oh there's a cap on how much I can augment?" is one of the more frequent issue. Or using optional (psionics bypasses SR right?) rules can really skew the game.

Or if you run the 1/day encounter, any caster especially psions can unload everything.

If the dreamscarred press psions are anything like the 3.5 versions I find they add a bit of flavor without dominating the table any more (and usually a bit less) than a properly played conventional caster.

Good luck! :)