SuicidalSkydiver |
For starters, I'm going to be including spoilers for KingMaker 1 in this post, just in case anyone who doesn't want it spoiled is reading. Better safe than sorry.
Anyway, my party has just gotten to the end of book 1, with a little bit of exploration left to do before their reward arrives. In the heat of battle however, the rogue and soon to be master spy was instantly killed by a maximised damage roll. And poor decision making.
Anyway, this has left the party short of their trapfinder and disabler. The player intends to next play a Summoner, and the only other party member with disable device is the gunsmith, who does not have it as a class skill, and has also dropped ranks in it in favour of ride. With this being the case, I've been trying to work out a way that I could resurrect the rogue, or otherwise replace them reasonably. I can't GMNPC a rogue, as I'm already having to fill the 'Healer' role.
I also wouldn't mind advice on how to handle traps if there is no trappers. I don't want to remove them outright, and lowering DCs would just feel like cheapening the challenge.
Thanks in advance.
Third Mind |
I'm playing in Kingmaker as well (on book 2 now) and have thus far only encountered one trap, whether there is more or not I don't know, but I will give my thoughts anyways.
Our party doesn't have a rogue and the only one that has disable device (that I'm aware of) is me... and I'm a wizard... and I only have a bonus of +3 total for the skill.
The only trap we encountered was magical, I saw it, told the party about it and we just moved around it, all during an intense battle.
Now, if I do run into a trap, I do have those 3 points. Not much I know, but I'm not ultra worried about it. Primarily because I'd make sure to keep the area clear before taking 20 on the roll (which is allowed). Even if I didn't have the skill, I personally believe that there's always a way around traps. Or at least there should be. Since Pathfinder is innately a game where you can do what you imagine within limits, there is usually more than one way to get to where you need to be. If the door is locked, there should / may be a way past that as well.
Also, as a summoner, they could potentially just summon a creature and have them run through traps, setting them off with little damage to themselves. Unless they are resetting of course. Also, since they'll be a summoner, there's the possibility that his / her Eidolon can be a sort of rogue in its own right, if that's the way they decide to go.
TL;DR: Don't worry about it. They'll find their way past locked doors and traps in some way or another.
Third Mind |
It's also possible my group is just a bit luckier. We haven't explored everywhere on the map, but we have gotten through a really good chunk of it.
Perhaps you could make a suggestion to the rogue / summoner player to pick up the disable device skill in some way or another (whether it be the character or the Eidolon). If they don't listen, then you've done all you can do. When they die of traps enough, they'll learn.
FireberdGNOME |
Groups will live or die as they do. It is not the GM's job to coddle them. If they go sans rogue, then there are consequences. Just like there are consequences to going sans healer, linemen, casters, whatever. As others have pointed out not having a trapper is not a game killer. Unless you are running some crazy dungeon of doom trap based ;)
GNOME
Diego Rossi |
I'm playing in Kingmaker as well (on book 2 now) and have thus far only encountered one trap, whether there is more or not I don't know, but I will give my thoughts anyways.
Our party doesn't have a rogue and the only one that has disable device (that I'm aware of) is me... and I'm a wizard... and I only have a bonus of +3 total for the skill.
The only trap we encountered was magical, I saw it, told the party about it and we just moved around it, all during an intense battle.
Now, if I do run into a trap, I do have those 3 points. Not much I know, but I'm not ultra worried about it. Primarily because I'd make sure to keep the area clear before taking 20 on the roll (which is allowed). Even if I didn't have the skill, I personally believe that there's always a way around traps. Or at least there should be. Since Pathfinder is innately a game where you can do what you imagine within limits, there is usually more than one way to get to where you need to be. If the door is locked, there should / may be a way past that as well.
Also, as a summoner, they could potentially just summon a creature and have them run through traps, setting them off with little damage to themselves. Unless they are resetting of course. Also, since they'll be a summoner, there's the possibility that his / her Eidolon can be a sort of rogue in its own right, if that's the way they decide to go.
TL;DR: Don't worry about it. They'll find their way past locked doors and traps in some way or another.
The DC depends on how tricky the device is. If the check succeeds, you disable the device. If it fails by 4 or less, you have failed but can try again. If you fail by 5 or more, something goes wrong. If the device is a trap, you trigger it. If you're attempting some sort of sabotage, you think the device is disabled, but it still works normally.
You can take 20 in disabling traps only if you can't fail the check by more than 4. if you can fail by 5 or more you automatically activate the trap if you take 20.
You can always take 10 if you aren't distracted.
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Flagged the thread to be moved to the Kingmaker section of the forum, where people can reply with specific informations.
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To the OP: a good perception allow anyone to notice traps. Even if no one in the group can disable a trap using the skill, there are plenty of mundane and magical means to trigger it from a safe position, without harm for the party.
Chuckbab |
What's the size of your party? The APs are created for parties of 4 characters.
Unless the players take really weird decisions at character creation, a 4-man party shouldn't have any "role to fill" (whatever that may means). And if they do, I guess it's their problem.
Anyway, as others mentionned, running Kingmaker without as "specialist" is not a game-breaker. In fact, I think running it without a "stealthy guy" may be more of a problem. A problem a well-built Eidolon can easily solve.
Lee Hanna |
I'm only in book 2, but IIRC, there are darn few traps in the rest of Kingmaker. My group has a rogue, but she's almost entirely focused on Diplomacy and the like. So far, she hasn't detected or disabled a single trap.
AS the above says, that's their worry, you just need to make sure there's nothing that they can't get through at all.
My group of 6 PCs is running without a wizard and only an oracle fodivine stuff, and so far, they are doing just fine.
SuicidalSkydiver |
That would have been part of the problem, as the rogue was also the one with the best social skills and the most languages, and was designed to be the ultimate diplomat/spymaster. Luckily, the knight is also good at diplomacy, and at least one of the spellcasters tries to have 'comprehend languages' prepared at all times just in case. Again, I'm probably getting too badly worked up over traps that aren't as bad as they seem.
Nevarre |
My advicee would be don't worry. As has already been mentioned, KM is hardly rife with traps and nothing (to date) that can't be circumvented. I'm running book 3 currently and though the party NOW has a rogue, she's hardly had any trap finding/disabling to do.
Diplomacy is KM is far more important than Disable Device as far as I'm concerned.
Mr. Grogg |
Who needs a rogue in Kingmaker?
My group has only had three players until now - a fourth player will be joining us in the next session.
Until now they've had a healer, a caster, and a tank. Now they have a chance to get a rogue, but they've decided on a ranger instead since they've never had a single opportunity to need a rogue.
Besides, they are supposed to become the leaders of a kingdom. Tough to appoint a felon as chancellor.
Rickmeister |
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Rogue is not necessarily a felon, a bandit, a jailbird, a thief, a walking lockpicker/pickpocketer. "What's in a name?" would someone really famous say ;)
I play rogues because I enjoy what they can do, and I love the "fighting dirty" style. He doesn't necessarily go stand behind the guy (acrobatics are high, so he could though) but the paladin has learned that flanking makes me very accurate and deadly so he is usually the one 'advising' me to move over and flank this 'heinous foe'!
My rogue's never commited a felony, is more "good" than the paladin at times and overall would be best fitted for a station in a council because he knows a lot of things, is good with people, and knows how to get around.
Seems to me you are suffering from OPS (optimal party syndrome) where you are looking for a healer, a caster, a tank and a DPS.
Hope you get rid of that quickly, maybe see a 18th level cleric for that ;)
Orthos |
Seconded to Rick. The Rogue my party had for a time (the character is still present, but she's since rebuilt as a Fistfull of Denarii Hunter) is a woodswoman, a hunter, a tracker, and a diplomat to the local fey. She has yet, two chapters later, to ever steal anything, break any local laws, murder someone (killing in self-defense or defense of her kingdom =/= murder), or perform any other acts that might get her branded as a felon.
And between her ridiculous Stealth, Perception, and social scores, she's probably the best darn Spymistress for miles.