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As to how you want to describe what's happened = up to you...

As for why the players didn't discover it previously...? The world is not a static place. There may have been caves they didn't pay attention to previously, but without inhabitants... There may have been an earthquake opening a cave that previously wasn't open, debris show this to be the case. ...& why not just make it closer to their capital. YOU ARE GOD - make it so! :)

Can't remember where, but there's a thread in this forum where members have stated all the bad calculations they've found from book one onwards. Search - it should have what you're looking for.

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Your weapon increases/decreases one size category. (then make it only for 24hrs, or make them roll a dice to determine how many hrs/days the effect lasts.)

You grow a beard (fun if it's a female PC), or all the hair on your body falls out/disappears.

Various spell effects can be annoying/fun - e.g. faerie fire or similar.

A bathtub full of hot water appears...or a bathtub without any water...?

Gain 1 rank in 'Perform: Slapstick'

You're surrounded by a swarm of chickens. Use appropriate swarm stats.

Wish I had enough time & energy to have made it as fun for my players as you seem to have for yours! :)

Well done.

You could also run it with both sets of players on the same map & make it a race to see who gets to set up a kingdom...

The loosing team could then become 'subservient' to the winners.

However, I do agree with Spatula. In some ways, you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt as a DM. How do you foresee having 2 independent
Kingdoms (run by 2 completely different sets of players) running in a campaign created for one set of players to conquer & rule the area...?

Merry Tinselmouse Chemlak!

Allying with the Mites might help set a helpful precedent with other Fey in the
kingdom however. No reason why it shouldn't work - as JohnB pointed out.

Somehow I see Mites as being less industrious than Kobolds however, so whilst
they might be allies, they may also prove to be a drain on the kingdom, more
than a boon.

As always - up to how you want to play it.

As for Svetlana's ring, you could have PCs spot mite children playing with it,
or it on a chain around a Mite's neck or something similar. If you decribe it
right, it will stick out in the player's minds as being 'different' to the
other gear the Mites are using, & therefore worthy of investigation - but still
not a 'gimme' clue.

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Not a lot of skill or knowledge checks against those 2... unless they're
Know (Religion) & tell your party that they'll get their butts handed to
them. ;-p

To be honest though, your party should be okay, but may still get unlucky...
It sometimes just depends on tactics & the roll of the dice on the day!

I had 5 (or maybe 6, can't remember) go up against these 2 & they had a tough
fight of it. They were mostly experienced players & 2 - 3 of them were pretty
optimised PCs.

That said, at the end of the day & after having to retreat the 1st time, Big
V & his 'buddy' came after them outside & they got taken down in about 7 or 8

Type 'Jade Ring' into your search engine.
It's faster than magic! ...and provides cool pictures you can use...
It really isn't hard (& I'm a drawing program neophyte) to open a
drawing program or alter the image to a black & white 'sketch'...

What Spatula said...but if you use some of those options...your players will
know that things have changed up & it will scare them - with any luck. :)

The world moves on & their actions have alerted a dangerous foe to take
countermeasures... Heh heh heh.

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It's quite possible that not all of the Mites were home when the party first came.
You've got hunting/gathering/war parties for a start.

Or - you could have a new tribe of Mites (visibly/thematically differentiated)
somehow - who have taken over a 'weaker' opponent...

For that matter - does it need to be Mites? Why not a new Kobold tribe or similar?

To be honest - I just decided how big I wanted it to be, included the buildings
I thought should be included, & statted that up as a once off - rather than as
a year by year type of thing. (It was also a few years down the track that my
players got to do that part of the AP.)

After I'd decided that it was still a lot smaller than the PCs kingdom, I
made up a bunch of reasons. (Biggest of which was the 'war' with the centaurs,
& outlying farms not being sustainable, so settlers left if droves.)

Not all that helpful to you, but a different take at least...

Happy building!

See - I'd argue that the 'buildings' you're talking about are WHOLE BLOCKS
dedicated to sale/manufacture/whatever...

The kingdom may not have 'built' anything of the sort yet, but there may still
be an enterprising merchant or caravan passing through, as well as a single
shop selling whatever.

Don't get so caught up in the kingdom building rules that you mistake them for

Let the game flow.

Base value is not only about stuff your city can create on it's own.
A town/village/whatever may have nothing/no-one which can create magic items,
but they may still have some items for sale.

This is your 'get out of jail free' card in this instance.

Base value is partly about that, but also what the city's merchants can afford
to import & stock in their shops.

Go for it. if your players want to buy it, all you have to decide is whether
it's available or not.
If it's not available - the player may have to pay half up front & send to
another town for it. (That's what I did for my players anyway.)

I'm sure there was a thread which discussed a 'mage battle' type event at
the tourney.

Best piece of advice I can give is search out the 'party of 6' adaptation on these hallowed boards.
EXCELLENT & well thought out piece of work for each book. Encounters, treasure & XP all sorted!

Thedmstrikes = ditto from me!

I think the RAW (UCam) actually assume stone buildings - pretty sure I read that.
It specifically calls out tree cities as being built from wood & halves costs
etc. but also reduces defence & changes some other stuff around.

I think you should also consider that most buildings will be wood - same as
for a tree city, as 'stone & marsh' = not so easy.
There are rules for tree settlements - so it'll be easy to do.

There are suitable Feats out there...
Just polish up your search-fu.

e.g. sounds like 'Dynasty Founder' a Story Feat may suit you...or not...
'Nation Builder', 'Monument Builder', 'Stronghold' & 'Town Tamer' are more
story Feats.
Other story feats may suit - you'll need to check.

'Natural Ruler' is a general Feat that you might like.
'Fortunate Ruler' is another.

There will be others, you just need to look. I found these in 10mins.

I like KK's ideas of introducing the fey Pranksters.
This is exactly the sort of thing they'd do in their patch & it doesn't even
have to all go the PCs way...

e.g. yes, their ropes are suddenly cut or untied, & yes, there seems to be
some sort of flair up in the bandit's fire (strangely arcane come to think of
it)...& why did that bandit just trip over for no reason...

But - the fey have no particular reason to like the PCs yet, so are not friends
or feeling beholden to them, so why not make a chase scene out of it? i.e.
when the PCs are just sneaking off, a disembodied voice calls out (in a
somewhat high pitched manner) - "Quick, they're getting away!"

You don't have to have the fey ever be visible, & it will make a great plot
reveal later on when the PCs are actually getting pranked themselves... :)

+1 to CB's comments above.

My Player's limited their sawmill expansion due to 'hints' by friendly fey
about consequences. The party druid took that one seriously & put his foot
down! :)

Also, & it may be too late for you now, apply the law of diminishing returns.
i.e. - the more you have of something, the less it's worth. Too many sawmills
= too much wood that the kingdom can't use, thereby devaluing it & cutting
profits in half.
BP is not all about money either, it's about jobs & goodwill etc etc etc.
How many lumberjacks are there in your player's kingdom? Seriously. Are there
really enough folks wandering about all wanting exactly the same job...?

Glut the market, raise discontent etc etc... Look at the real world for
examples at what can happen & make it so. :)

The other way you can look at it is to just let your players run with it.
They finally have a game where they can be powerful & run a kingdom.
Let them do it & don't worry about it too much, unless you intend carrying
on past book 6 with an invasion of Brevoy or similar...

Whichever way you go - good luck!

I used 'skalds' in it's place. I guess you could just as easily use 'styles',
as in fashion...?

Also - I have just been thinking...

If you intend having outside forces wanting NPCs in a leadership position,
you'll need some sort of mechanic to allow the PCs to accept someone with
whom they have no relationship.

e.g. if you use some of the message board options presented for earning BP,
you may want to allow the priest of xyz onto the council in exchange for
10BP of funding early on or something similar.

That said, how about making a limit for the amount of NPCs who can be brought
in without any sort of relationship having already been formed...or, using
the rules you're looking at...perhaps a tiered approach?
e.g. 6 positions at tier 4, 2 at tier 3...etc.

This would give you a bit more flexibility, and perhaps a tiered approach to
the great idea by Chemlak. i.e. allow a gradual increase of rank & as a
consequence a gradual increase of stat bonus to the position.

Next - how will you handle people on the council who are at odds with the
PCs? Is there any sort of mechanic in the rules to handle this?

Know of the rules, but don't know the rules themselves.

All I'd say is be careful of leaving your players with no options to fill
leadership positions. If they don't develop enough relationships to fill
all of the leadership slots, then it will likely wreck their kingdom before
it even really begins...

Other than that - sounds like a good way to make your players invest in the
lives of those around them. (Just make sure your players are aware that this
is how you'll be playing it.)

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You might want to search for Venture Capital - a deal with the devil...
That has some stuff for the book 1 - 2 transition, but which could be used
earlier to set the scene a bit better.

Also check out Redcelt's game of thrones for ideas, & Dudemeister's stuff.

For myself, I had my Players go on an adventure into the wilderness with a
friend of theirs, & he needed his butt saving - which the players nicely
Once back in Restov, then the NPCs uncle approached the PCs to say thanks &
to invite them to the handing out of charters party. At the 11th hour, the
group who was supposed to get the Stolen Lands charter were out of the
running, so the uncle sponsored the PCs into it.

At that same party, the Iron Wraiths were already out & on the job in the
borderlands of Pitax. Irovetti was set up as a potential threat, as he
appeared in a 'sending' telling the Swordlords not to mess with his lands,
& throwing down a shield with the Wraiths insignia on it - then the spell
ended & uproar ensued...

Yeah - swap Taldans for Varnholders...

With respect to your option 1, check out Legendary Games. They have a series
of adventures designed to 'plug-in' to this AP.
You could easily run 1 or 2 of those with either their characters, or as I have
done upon occasion, with some NPCs from the kingdom.

This accomplishes 2 things: 1 gives you maneuvering time with regards to
kingdom building, as the scenarios are of the AP, but not the timeline; & 2
gets your players buying into some of the NPCs in the kingdom.

I'd suggest that each session you run of the above, you have a part of the
session dedicated to kingdom building. You then kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
You can have the 'uninterested' players turn up later, or leave earlier than
those who want to kingdom build.

wraithstrike wrote:
The OP actually wants to use XP from what I understand. That is why I suggested what I did, which is to just stop giving them encounters if they don't get it, after he explains how the game works.

True dat... but using XP & what I said are not mutually exclusive. :)

I'm talking about the messaging to the players. XP is given for exploring,
building - you name it... It's not all about killing monsters & taking
their stuff...

XP can be handed out at any old time, but not necessarily tied to what grinder
players expect.

Not biggie, I just come from a background where the messaging plays a bigger
part than what comes next. The OP is talking about setting expectations at
the core of his/her issue... Messaging. That's why I +1'd you. :)
Setting expectations sets behaviour.

+1 @ wraith
...although, I'd be even more simplistic.
Just tell them that you'll level them up when appropriate & that has to do with how they play the game & not necessarily how many monsters they kill.
After all - RAW is overcoming challenges - NOT killing monsters!

Gotta love more features... ;-p

Heh, that dog was the only one to get a hit in on my players in the 1st round of combat...on the party Ranger. She took an immediate dislike to it - and whilst the party were fighting Drelev in the stairwell, her pet hawk took out the dog in revenge of the ankle bite... :)


+1 to kenderkin's advice.
I also put my players through Fellnight Queen. So +1 to Norin.
Also - check out Legendary Games plug-in adventures for this AP.

That is a cool idea!

Also - lookout a resource for Pathfinder called 'Tournaments, Fairs & Taverns'
by EN Publishing. Sooooooo helpful!

Just to add my 2cp...
I also love your ideas & wish I'd thought of doing it your way... Too late for
me, but...

I added another Red Scale tribe early on, & that worked really well. They had
ranks in Barbarian...which was a bit of a shock for my players... Heh heh heh.
The players wanted to eradicate them for in-game reasons, but didn't get them
all. The remainder sided with Hargulka later on.

I think perhaps putting a White Scaled tribe in the mountains, & a Black Scaled
tribe in the Hooktounge (in place of the Boggards?) would work pretty well

I also didn't, but because of your piece, the Black's may well appear soon...

Thedmstrikes wrote:

Glad to hear about the foot...

Do not make me employ my digital whip to get you back on track....

Heh heh heh - the beatings will continue until morale improves...?

Hope your foot isn't feeling so bad today.
My suggestion for the future - don't do it again...

Merry Christmas Chemlak,
Thanks for all your hard work.

NPCs in my player's kingdom have stopped 'gifting' horses to the PCs, on
account of how many they never came back with... :-)

Also - something that has come up consistently as far as I can tell, is the need
to introduce your players to the setting BEFORE they get sent out into the
Stolen Lands.
i.e. Have the 1st session be all about getting the charter & meeting some SwordLords
& Varn, & perhaps even Drelev.
It's helpful to have some of the movers & shakers in Restov/Brevoy get introduced
early to obtain player buy-in. e.g. different religions...who will then reappear
later (start of Book 2) wanting to 'help' the PCs... :)

You can also use the opportunity to have some of the quests from books 1 & 2 be given
by some of these people, so that there's continuity.

I wish I'd done more of this when I started my campaign.

There is a conversation or 2 on these boards about that very thing...

From memory different GMs handled it different ways.

For my part, yes, the theft of the bracelet woke him up, but I also had the
whole of his tomb still resonant with magic, which on a high enough spellcraft
was seen to be failing slowly.

In fact - one of my 'go to' answers... :)

@ Farvin...
Never worry about asking questions! :)
These boards have been incredibly helpful to me, many other GMs & Players
because we're such a supportive community.
Questions are always fair game for a variety of responses as a result, but
also, sometimes the people who answer need to be educated about the specific
forces at play in an individual game - every game is different. ;-p

Good luck on your quest!

Ditto! That's crazy cool - congrats to your wife!
Please post lyrics. :)

IMC these events have the penalties apply for all time & these are mitigated by
the actions of the rulers to balance out things - e.g. buildings or gifts etc...

I like Chemlak's Spanish inquisition example - & people do have a very long
memory...people still hate each other in our own world for wars fought centuries

As Spatula posted, if you go the way Farvin (sorry Farvin) is postulating, then
the bonuses from the buildings you build will also disappear over time...

This system is a simplification... That's all it is. If you want to make life
more complicated - go for it (with your group's acceptance), but as a GM - I
want it as simple as can be...

Build some stuff to mitigate the penalties & then build a bridge...

The man! = insert picture of Chemlak here...

Downloaded fine for me, of course...I haven't actually loaded anything in yet... ;-p

I didn't give any hints.
Later on, whatever was in the hex would either be a boon or a bane... :)
Of course, my players had/have amazingly high Perception, so they didn't miss much.

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