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85 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
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Is the Alchemical Cartridge reduction to reload speed from Metal Cartridges for Advanced Firearms already "baked" into the stated reload speeds (standard for 2-h, move for 1-h actually a standard action brought down to a move action), or are those stated speeds already the "base" reload speeds and using Metal Cartridges (which you must use anyway) cut it by one step further?
Stemming from this thread, we've reached the following conclusions that indicated the original question from that thread (which is 3 years old) probably doesn't meet the more recent FAQ standards.
Logic is as follows:
All advanced firearms use Metal Cartridges as ammo which are a type of alchemical cartridge; they don't get the choice between alchemical or "loose" bullets like early firearms. Naturally, this means that, from using alchemical cartridges, their reload speed is reduced by 1 step. Now, if this were taken as the de facto standard (since you can only use this kind of ammo anyway), it would be perfectly reasonable that this is how they arrived at reload times stated in the rules that are one step lower than those for comparable early firearms they only state a Move action in the rules since it can never be a standard action. This would mean that the "base" reload speed for, say, a Revolver is actually a standard action which is always cut to a move action by alchemical cartridges. If this is the case, then Rapid Reload would cut this base reload speed from a standard to a move action from which it automatically goes down to a free action to reload your revolver. *It would have no effect, however, on an advanced 2-h firearm since Rapid Reload would cut the [actual] reload speed from a standard action to... a standard action because that's what it brings a 2-h firearm down to.*
However, if this shift is not automatically taken into consideration, it needs to be manually done, in which case, the base reload speed of a Revolver is a move action which is cut down to a Free action by use of metal cartridges (which you must use) and Rapid Reload is altogether moot.
Of course, the third option is that Metal Cartridges, despite being alchemical cartridges, don't grant the reload speed bonus to advanced firearms (since you're reloading all the chambers rather than a single barrel), in which case the Revolver caps at a Move action to reload and nothing can change that.
FAQ it up.
Edit(24Jan2014): Changed some incorrect premises and conclusions derived from them.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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FAQed. Again. Roland of Gilead awaits the eventual answer with patience.
FAQ'd, Bumped, AND Dotted
what he ^ said, very curious about this.
Asta
PSY
Kazaan wrote: Is the Alchemical Cartridge reduction to reload speed from Metal Cartridges for Advanced Firearms already "baked" into the stated reload speeds (standard for 2-h, move for 1-h), or are those stated speeds already the "base" reload speeds and using Metal Cartridges (which you must use anyway) cut it by one step further? Kazaan, technically UC states:
Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity.
So the "stated reload speeds", as you put it, are actually a move actions for both 2-h and 1-h advanced firearms.
This implies that your first theory with "baked in" reload speed reduction is flawed. As the reload time reduction goes from the early two-handed firearm's speed of a full-round action to the advanced two-handed firearm's speed of a move action. This action reduction cannot be fully explained by a "baked in" bonus from the metal (and therefore alchemical) cartridges.
I find your second theory of "manual shifting" to be much more plausible. This would imply that the reload speed for all advanced firearms is a free action. This theory is further supported by the fact that the Rapid Reload feat in UC practically ignores the existence of advanced firearms, since it implies that the only reload speeds for one-handed and two-handed firearms are a standard action and a full-round action respectively. Although it seems a little fishy to me that the publishers didn't just state that advanced firearms are a free action reload from the get-go.
Personally, I think that advanced firearms just use a move action to reload and that they went accidentally unmentioned in the Rapid Reload feat. The metal cartridge's description basically just mentions that they are similar to alchemical cartridges, and since it doesn't explicitly state that they have the same reload speed increasing properties as alchemical cartridges, I don't think they meant for us to worry our pretty little heads about it (so to speak).
I eagerly await an official answer to this question from Paizo. I will get my entire gaming group to FAQ this question.
Hmm, I could have sworn it said it said something different. So I guess the question should be changed to the choice between an actual reload speed of standard action for all advanced firearms brought down to a de facto reload speed of move action or a manual shift from a base of move down to free for all of them. Though, in that case, it's kind of silly to ever use a revolver when you could use a rifle instead if the only advantage of the revolver (larger ammo capacity) is a moot point anyway. I'll adjust the question accordingly.
Edit: That also means that, since Rapid Reload cuts it down to a specific action type based on the weapon type, it won't help a 2-h advanced firearm because it states for a 2-h firearm, it cuts it [from whatever it was before] to a standard action. But since it was already a [presumed] standard action based on the "baked in" theory, it's changed from a standard action to still a standard action... then to a move action by metal cartridges. So, in that case, Rapid Reload would only apply to either 1-h advanced firearms only for the "baked in" theory, or to neither kind of advanced firearm in the "manual shift" theory.
Thus, the options are as follows:
Baked In: 1-h advanced firearms cap at free action to reload with rapid reload. 2-h are stuck at move action.
Manual Shift: Both 1-h and 2-h advanced firearms automatically come down to free action (makes increased capacity of revolver superfluous and marginalizes them in favor of a two-hander)
No Shift: Both 1-h and 2-h advanced firearms are perpetually stuck at move action reloads.
I think I personally prefer the Baked In theory as it allows for improving your reload speed while still not marginalizing 1-h advanced firearms in favor of 2-h ones.
There is another option here.
The metal cartridge description is as follows:
Metal Cartridge: These sturdier versions of alchemical
cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms.
They can hold either bullets or pellets.
This description from UC doesn't explicitly say anything about affecting the reload speed of a firearm. It only states that these cartridges are "sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges." I believe the comparison to alchemical cartridges is drawn here simply because the metal cartridges are more similar in structure to alchemical cartridges(paper packages that contain the bullet/pellets, wadding, and gunpowder in one easily handled unit), not because metal cartridges are meant to retain the faster reload capabilities of alchemical cartridges.
I would therefore propose that advanced firearms simply use a move action to reload to full-capacity, as stated in UC. Furthermore, with regards to the Rapid Reload feat, I would say we should apply it to advanced firearms (move action reload) in the same way that it is applied to the hand crossbow and the light crossbow (also move action reloads), bringing the reload action for advanced firearms down to a free action.
Now at first this might seem like it makes the 6 round capacity of the revolver useless, making the rifle a clearly superior option so long as you have the Rapid Reload(rifle) feat, but I would argue against that. First of all, the 6 round capacity is especially useful for firearm users with Two-Weapon Fighting feats, it allows them to make a full-attack with a revolver in each hand without needing another free hand to reload their weapons. Second, I would argue that using a revolver saves you from having to take the Rapid Reload(revolver) feat in order to make full-attacks, allowing you to take something else like Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Far Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, or another feat that complements your revolver(s). Third, if two-weapon fighting isn't your thing, you could use your spare hand for something else, like wielding a shield, climbing, holding a torch, etc., all the while retaining your ability to make a full-attack with your revolver before needing your other hand free to reload. You could even make a full-attack with your revolver while being grappled because it only takes one hand to use.
That was already hashed out in the thread I linked.
PRD wrote: An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry. All alchemical cartridges reduce reload speed; not just paper cartridges but other kinds as well (ie. Dragon's Breath, Salt Shot, etc). Metal Cartridges are, explicitly, a type of alchemical cartridge. None of the descriptions of particular alchemical cartridges say that they reduce the reload speed (since it's already covered for ACs in general). What they list is how much it increases the misfire value for the attack; Metal Cartridges don't increase the misfire or, if they do, it's already baked into the stats given for the firearm itself. Metal Cartridges are Alchemical Cartridges; the fact that they are more sturdy doesn't change that. It's just as how a Masterwork Longsword is functionally the same as a normal Longsword; you don't need Weapon Focus(Mwk Longsword) just because the weapon is better crafted and balanced.
The clarification that takes the least work and yields the most balanced results is that the real reload speed is a standard action for all advanced firearms, brought down to a move action as the de facto reload speed by default use of MCs (which are ACs). This means that Rapid Reload will work, but only appreciably for one-handed advanced firearms. Otherwise, if the real reload speed actually is a move action, there's no need for Rapid Reload; the benefit it provides is less than the default. But you add in the reload speed reduction from MCs and the reload speed becomes a free action in all cases.
This question still desperately needs an answer.
Oh yes, it needs... As stated in another thread, for me that is really an important question... (for reference: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5rx?Utilizing-a-Rifle-if-you-are-a-Musket-Mas ter)
What's the problem exactly?
It says Rapid Reload reduces the speed to reload a ranged weapon chosen. If you chose Rifle, it goes from Move Action to Free Action. Likewise with everything else. Case solved...?
Barachiel Shina wrote: What's the problem exactly?
It says Rapid Reload reduces the speed to reload a ranged weapon chosen. If you chose Rifle, it goes from Move Action to Free Action. Likewise with everything else. Case solved...?
Reread Rapid Reload. It says nothing of the kind.
Quote: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity. It specifically gives the speed each will take. It doesn't say drop by one step.
They'll just ignore this forever...
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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They dont care about gunslingers or monks mos of the time. Its more like they want to pretend they dont exist
ElementalXX wrote: They dont care about gunslingers or monks mos of the time. Its more like they want to pretend they dont exist I agree, they really do want to pretend gunslingers dont exist because it was built way out of balance... and they know it.
Still FAQed, its a good question.
Barachiel Shina wrote: What's the problem exactly?
It says Rapid Reload reduces the speed to reload a ranged weapon chosen. If you chose Rifle, it goes from Move Action to Free Action. Likewise with everything else. Case solved...?
Did you read the original post?
Rapid Reload "sets" reload speed based on the firearm type. So a 2-h firearm goes from full-round to standard and a 1-h firearm goes from standard to move. Then, enter Alchemical Cartridges. They actually do "reduce" from whatever it happens to be at the moment so a 2-h goes from full-round to standard, a 2-h with Rapid Reload goes from standard to move, etc. The issue is that Metal Cartridges are Alchemical Cartridges:
PRD wrote: Metal Cartridge: These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets. All Metal Cartridges are Alchemical Cartridges and the rules for Alchemical Cartridges state that they reduce the reload speed by one step. So if Advanced Firearms all reload as Move actions by default, Advanced Firearms get no benefit from Rapid Reload because it's already at a Move action to reload. However, since it uses a Metal Cartridge, you always reduce the reload speed (since Metal Cartridges are Alchemical Cartridges) so all advanced firearms reload as free actions right off the bat; no Rapid Reload necessary. On the other hand, if the reduction for Metal Cartridges is already "taken for granted" in the stated reload speeds (it's not "really" a move action but rather a standard action to reload advanced firearms), then rapid Reload would work at least on 1-h advanced firearms. That's the ambiguity in the rules; are we supposed to handle the reload speed reduction granted by the metal alchemical cartridges on top of move action reloading for advanced firearms or is it already "pre-calculated" and the "real" reload speed for them is a standard action?
Kazaan wrote: Barachiel Shina wrote: What's the problem exactly?
It says Rapid Reload reduces the speed to reload a ranged weapon chosen. If you chose Rifle, it goes from Move Action to Free Action. Likewise with everything else. Case solved...?
Did you read the original post?
Rapid Reload "sets" reload speed based on the firearm type. So a 2-h firearm goes from full-round to standard and a 1-h firearm goes from standard to move. Then, enter Alchemical Cartridges. They actually do "reduce" from whatever it happens to be at the moment so a 2-h goes from full-round to standard, a 2-h with Rapid Reload goes from standard to move, etc. The issue is that Metal Cartridges are Alchemical Cartridges:
PRD wrote: Metal Cartridge: These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets. All Metal Cartridges are Alchemical Cartridges and the rules for Alchemical Cartridges state that they reduce the reload speed by one step. So if Advanced Firearms all reload as Move actions by default, Advanced Firearms get no benefit from Rapid Reload because it's already at a Move action to reload. However, since it uses a Metal Cartridge, you always reduce the reload speed (since Metal Cartridges are Alchemical Cartridges) so all advanced firearms reload as free actions right off the bat; no Rapid Reload necessary. On the other hand, if the reduction for Metal Cartridges is already "taken for granted" in the stated reload speeds (it's not "really" a move action but rather a standard action to reload advanced firearms), then rapid Reload would work at least on 1-h advanced firearms. That's the ambiguity in the rules; are we supposed to handle the reload speed reduction granted by the metal alchemical cartridges on top of move action reloading for advanced firearms or is it already "pre-calculated" and the "real" reload speed for them is a standard action? There's another twist to the Advanced Firearms thing. Quote: It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity. Not a big deal if your weapon only has a capacity of 1, but it does make reloading some advanced firearms even faster than it seems at first. Which suggests even more strongly to me that the cartridges are intended to be included.
It'd be really nice if someone from paizo would pay attention to this. How many people have to mark it as an FAQ candidate a hundred, two hundred.
I don't really see the reason for an FAQ here.
Rapid Reload:
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to [..] a standard action (two-handed firearm)
Alchemist Cartridges:
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step
=>
Musket: Full Round Action to reload
with Rapid Reload: Standard Action to reload (as stated in the Rapid Reload rules)
with Alchemical Cartridges: Standard Action to reload (Full Round Action reduced by one step)
with RR & AC: move action (Fullround reduced to standard by RR, one step down by AC = move action).
Tryn wrote: I don't really see the reason for an FAQ here.
Rapid Reload:
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to [..] a standard action (two-handed firearm)
Alchemist Cartridges:
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step
=>
Musket: Full Round Action to reload
with Rapid Reload: Standard Action to reload (as stated in the Rapid Reload rules)
with Alchemical Cartridges: Standard Action to reload (Full Round Action reduced by one step)
with RR & AC: move action (Fullround reduced to standard by RR, one step down by AC = move action).
And if you're a Musket Master, then it's a free action.
Then move to Advanced Firearms, which one would think would be easier and faster to reload:
Default: Move action to reload to capacity.
Musket Master: No effect, since 1 and 2 handed advanced firearms work the same.
Rapid Reload: changes it to a move action. Oh wait, it already is.
Alchemical Cartrdiges: Wait, you're already using them by default.
Final result: Slower to reload advanced firearms than muskets.
That's what people want FAQ'd.
Tryn wrote: I don't really see the reason for an FAQ here. Did you read the entire OP? If you didn't, that may explain why you don't see the reason. The thread is concerning advanced firearms like rifles and revolvers, not muskets.
I think if the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a free action, then it would simply be written as a free action. I see no reason for them to write it as a move action and then have the only usable ammo drop it to a free action. That seems needlessly complex.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote: I think if the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a free action, then it would simply be written as a free action. I see no reason for them to write it as a move action and then have the only usable ammo drop it to a free action. That seems needlessly complex. It does. OTOH, it also seems wrong to be able to reload a muzzle-loaded musket fast enough to get iteratives, but not do the same with a cartridge loading rifle.
I suspect that Rapid Reload not being written with advanced firearms in mind is the actual culprit.
Rewrite that to either specifically cover advanced firearms or to more generally drop load times by one step in call cases and it all makes more sense.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote: I think if the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a free action, then it would simply be written as a free action. I see no reason for them to write it as a move action and then have the only usable ammo drop it to a free action. That seems needlessly complex. Then how comes regular pistols and muskets can be reloaded as a free action? Normal is standard and full round respectevely
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote: I think if the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a free action, then it would simply be written as a free action. I see no reason for them to write it as a move action and then have the only usable ammo drop it to a free action. That seems needlessly complex. That's kind of the crux of the whole thing. Just replace "free action" with "move action". "If the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a move action, then it would simply be written as a move action," which is precisely what I say has been done; it's technically a standard action but since you can only use metal cartridges, a type of alchemical cartridge, it is "simply" written as a move action since there would never be a case in which it is actually a standard action to reload an advanced firearm.
Kazaan wrote: Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote: I think if the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a free action, then it would simply be written as a free action. I see no reason for them to write it as a move action and then have the only usable ammo drop it to a free action. That seems needlessly complex. That's kind of the crux of the whole thing. Just replace "free action" with "move action". "If the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a move action, then it would simply be written as a move action," which is precisely what I say has been done; it's technically a standard action but since you can only use metal cartridges, a type of alchemical cartridge, it is "simply" written as a move action since there would never be a case in which it is actually a standard action to reload an advanced firearm. Which is fine, except there's no way to reduce, like there is for early firearms, making advanced firearms worse than early ones.
thejeff wrote: Kazaan wrote: Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote: I think if the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a free action, then it would simply be written as a free action. I see no reason for them to write it as a move action and then have the only usable ammo drop it to a free action. That seems needlessly complex. That's kind of the crux of the whole thing. Just replace "free action" with "move action". "If the intent was for reloading advanced firearms to be a move action, then it would simply be written as a move action," which is precisely what I say has been done; it's technically a standard action but since you can only use metal cartridges, a type of alchemical cartridge, it is "simply" written as a move action since there would never be a case in which it is actually a standard action to reload an advanced firearm. Which is fine, except there's no way to reduce, like there is for early firearms, making advanced firearms worse than early ones. Unless, if they are "technically" a standard action to reload reduced automatically to move (and, thus, simply written as move), then Rapid Reload would still adjust a one-handed advanced firearm from "actually standard" to "actually move" which is then, in turn, dropped to free by the de facto use of metal alchemical cartridges. The result is that, with Rapid Reload, a 1-h advanced firearm reloads as a free action and a 2-h advanced firearm remains a move action regardless of Rapid Reload (free action with fast musket). You might almost say that an advanced 2-h firearm has rapid reload "built in" given that both 1-h and 2-h reload at the same speed whereas standard firearms are separated by one step by default.
You load all chambers as a move action, not just one like early firearms.
Paizo is taking the poor route WotC has taken; create something new and then forget about it, or coming out with extremely limited material. The only new class that's getting the most attention is Magus. But Samurai, Ninja, Gunslinger (and now these new ACG classes) are gonna get tossed aside and then the power ups continue to go to the core classes and Magus, as usual.
Blindmage wrote: You load all chambers as a move action, not just one like early firearms. True, but not all advanced firearms have more than one chamber. And even the revolver means you fall behind on iteratives to early pistols. Not really noticeably until fairly late in the game, admittedly.
Except it's never "steps".
Rapid Reload sets reload times to new (shorter) values.
Advanced Firearms with metal cartridges are set to a move action.
At best, rapid reload does nothing. At worst, it would be slowing down your 2-hander if it applied after any ammo mods.
Jamie Charlan wrote: Except it's never "steps".
Rapid Reload sets reload times to new (shorter) values.
Advanced Firearms with metal cartridges are set to a move action.
At best, rapid reload does nothing. At worst, it would be slowing down your 2-hander if it applied after any ammo mods.
Why would it apply "after" ammo mods? It doesn't apply after on early firearms. So at worst, it does nothing, at best, the "move" action isn't strictly a move action but rather a standard action, in which case, at least for a 1-h advanced firearm (and a 2-h w/ musket master), you're "setting" it to move with Rapid Reload and then cartridges shift it down by one to free.
The real question is this:
Does the reduced reload time on advanced firearms assume the fact it only uses metal cartridges or no?
The way I read it is an advanced two-handed firearm only reloads as a Standard Action because it only uses metal cartridges. Rapid Reload would drop reload to Standard Action at which point the metal cartridges have dropped it down to a Move Action to reload. The only way to make it a Free Action and getting all iterative attacks is by being a Musket Master, since it considers all two-handed firearms as one-handed firearms for the purpose of reloads. Sounds like a good balance to me, considering advanced firearms have FIVE range increments of touch attack amongst other benefits and it makes the Musket Master as appealing as it should be.
Barachiel Shina wrote: The real question is this:
Does the reduced reload time on advanced firearms assume the fact it only uses metal cartridges or no?
The way I read it is an advanced two-handed firearm only reloads as a Standard Action because it only uses metal cartridges. Rapid Reload would drop reload to Standard Action at which point the metal cartridges have dropped it down to a Move Action to reload. The only way to make it a Free Action and getting all iterative attacks is by being a Musket Master, since it considers all two-handed firearms as one-handed firearms for the purpose of reloads. Sounds like a good balance to me, considering advanced firearms have FIVE range increments of touch attack amongst other benefits and it makes the Musket Master as appealing as it should be.
All advanced firearms reload to capacity as move action doesn't matter if its one handed or two-handed or has six barrels. So the musket master has no effect on advanced firearms.
Lord Vukodlak wrote: All advanced firearms reload to capacity as move action doesn't matter if its one handed or two-handed or has six barrels. So the musket master has no effect on advanced firearms.
Again... as has already been presented several times... if reloading an advanced firearm is a move action (regardless of handiness, number of barrels, etc), and alchemical cartridges reduce the reload speed by one step, then using metal cartridges (which are alchemical cartridges) reduces the reload speed of advanced firearms from move to free. That is the main point of the issue being discussed here. Is it really a move action to reload an advanced firearm? Or is it a move action only after taking into consideration the metal cartridges and it's printed as "move action" since you always use metal cartridges and, thus, it would always end up at move action?
Hey I noticed something odd. Check it out:
----------------------------------------------------
Advanced Firearms:Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity.
----------------------------------------------------
This means if your have a Pepperbox Rifle (Capacity 4) or a Revolver (Capacity 6), it only takes one Move Action to load ALL the chambers...
Well now that I re-read the entries...I noticed it says it is a Move Action to reload a One-Handed or Two-Handed advanced firearm; normally it takes a Full-Round (two-handed) or a Standard Action (one-handed).
This means, strangely, that the two-handed firearm dropped by TWO steps and one-handed firearms dropped by ONE step.
Which...is odd. Because if we assume metal cartridges are using the minus one step rule like alchemical cartridges, that would mean the cartridge isn't reducing anything, if it was...both firearm types would reload as a free action?
I am confused now.
PAIZO FIX THIS!!!
Hold on a second.
Paizo has the nerve to update their Ultimate Combat FAQ TODAY but says nothing about this!?!?! They answer something not that important, like the Tiger Claws and Dragon Style thing.
Ultimate Combat FAQ
This is what is pissing me off about them. They never answer the important questions.
Barachiel Shina wrote: Hey I noticed something odd. Check it out:
----------------------------------------------------
Advanced Firearms:Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity.
----------------------------------------------------
This means if your have a Pepperbox Rifle (Capacity 4) or a Revolver (Capacity 6), it only takes one Move Action to load ALL the chambers...
Well now that I re-read the entries...I noticed it says it is a Move Action to reload a One-Handed or Two-Handed advanced firearm; normally it takes a Full-Round (two-handed) or a Standard Action (one-handed).
This means, strangely, that the two-handed firearm dropped by TWO steps and one-handed firearms dropped by ONE step.
Which...is odd. Because if we assume metal cartridges are using the minus one step rule like alchemical cartridges, that would mean the cartridge isn't reducing anything, if it was...both firearm types would reload as a free action?
I am confused now.
PAIZO FIX THIS!!!
Normally, it takes a full-round to reload a 2-h early firearm or a standard for a 1-h early firearm. I don't take issue with the idea that they brought it down to an unwritten standard action for both, automatically adjusted to move for both in the written rules. In a way, it's almost like the 2-h advanced firearm also has rapid reload baked in.
And yes, I am thoroughly pissed about this fiasco involving the ability score bonuses that broke several abilities which then needed to have their own FAQs to fix them.
That is the issue. We don't know if it is "unwritten."
Way too much "getting pissed" in this thread. : /
Advanced firearms require metal cartridges to work--they're the only ammo type you can use with them. It would be rather silly to state that their default reload time is a move action but to never actually have that reload time come up. I can only conclude that it's a move action to reload an advanced firearm, full-stop.
Edit: Yeah, the wording of Rapid Reload technically makes it not work for advanced firearms. C'est la vie. At least you don't have to blow a feat.
blahpers wrote: Way too much "getting pissed" in this thread. : /
Advanced firearms require metal cartridges to work--they're the only ammo type you can use with them. It would be rather silly to state that their default reload time is a move action but to never actually have that reload time come up. I can only conclude that it's a move action to reload an advanced firearm, full-stop.
Edit: Yeah, the wording of Rapid Reload technically makes it not work for advanced firearms. C'est la vie. At least you don't have to blow a feat.
So does that mean advanced two-handed firearms only require a Standard Action to reload? Normally they need a full round but this implies a TWO step drop. So then he is it one-handed advanced firearms also require a Move Action but not a free action?
How can one reload an advanced two handed firearm as a free action then?
Barachiel Shina wrote: blahpers wrote: Way too much "getting pissed" in this thread. : /
Advanced firearms require metal cartridges to work--they're the only ammo type you can use with them. It would be rather silly to state that their default reload time is a move action but to never actually have that reload time come up. I can only conclude that it's a move action to reload an advanced firearm, full-stop.
Edit: Yeah, the wording of Rapid Reload technically makes it not work for advanced firearms. C'est la vie. At least you don't have to blow a feat.
So does that mean advanced two-handed firearms only require a Standard Action to reload? Normally they need a full round but this implies a TWO step drop. So then he is it one-handed advanced firearms also require a Move Action but not a free action?
How can one reload an advanced two handed firearm as a free action then? RAW, you can't.
srd wrote: It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity. All our speculation about deriving the reload time from "like early, but with cartidges automatically figured in" is just speculation. There is no "They started like this, but then dropped by so many steps." You reload them to full capacity with a move action using metal cartridges.
Personally, as a house rule and probably RAI, I'd allow Rapid Reload to work to drop reloading to a free action, but as written, it does not.
Barachiel Shina wrote: blahpers wrote: Way too much "getting pissed" in this thread. : /
Advanced firearms require metal cartridges to work--they're the only ammo type you can use with them. It would be rather silly to state that their default reload time is a move action but to never actually have that reload time come up. I can only conclude that it's a move action to reload an advanced firearm, full-stop.
Edit: Yeah, the wording of Rapid Reload technically makes it not work for advanced firearms. C'est la vie. At least you don't have to blow a feat.
So does that mean advanced two-handed firearms only require a Standard Action to reload? Normally they need a full round but this implies a TWO step drop. So then he is it one-handed advanced firearms also require a Move Action but not a free action?
How can one reload an advanced two handed firearm as a free action then? Move action. Full-stop. Unless there's a FAQ to the contrary.
That makes no sense.
So it is possible for me with Musket Master to load EARLY two-handed firearms as a free action. (Using Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges). It is possible for me to load EARLY one-handed firearms as a free action.
But it is not possible for me to reload ADVANCED firearms as a free action, not even with Rapid Reload?
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