Can a pounce lion hit muiltiple targets? and a few other questions...

[Seravix]

Can a lion or other creature with pounce hit multiple targets assuming the charge movement is legit? Like 2 characters standing adjacent to each other and the lion charges them. I want to say no since your designating a target, but I want to hear if anyone else has info/faxes to back it up. I haven't seen many forums on this so thought it a good question.

Do you get +2 to all your attacks on pounce. I believe this was a yes overall on forum board. But always good to ask.

Last question...and sorta strange...just came to me while looking at others pounce info. If your mounted and have the pounce ability..do you get all your attacks? This could setup some ugly situations...if say you were mounted and charging with a lance or two with triple/quadruple damage on each attack.

Thanks guys!

[Seravix]

Never mind on last question...guess rider is not actually charging but only getting the bonus of charging. Please focus on the first 2 questions.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

I'd have to agree with you on the first question.

For your second question, that's confirmed a +5 for each attack.

[Alexander Nudd]

1) You can certainly attack different targets as part of a charge if you have pounce. Pounce gives you the ability to make a full attack at the end of your charge in place of the usual attack. Full attacks have no restriction that every attack must be on the same target.

The first argument should be enough, but I'm pretty sure by RAW you don't need to make the single attack from a normal charge on the individual you charged with how it is written, although that is clearly RAI.

2) You also get the +2 on all the attacks. This could use a FAQ but I believe that is how it is interpreted.

[Seravix]

I know general rpg gaming can sometimes be about the rules more than the realistic..but I'm having trouble imaging a lion (insert other creature) pouncing 4 guys lined up. I guess...he can do a claw, bite, claw and some hind leg rakes on the last. Just funny seeing this in my mind as the cat is stretched 20 feet to do this. But I'm looking for the rules and not realistic. At this point I'm only seeing 3 options:

1) He can attack only his designated target
2) He can attack all targets that he can fit in the ruling of space.
3) He can charge 1 target and attack any target including he bypassed to get to designated charge opponent. I would think MIN, he would have to send at least one attack to the charge opponent.

As for normal charges...I'm pretty sure you have to attack the designated target. You can't charge one guy and attack some other person..

"You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent."

[Alexander Nudd]

I completely agree with you on the RAI Seravix as for needing to attack the target you charge with a standard charge. I don't think I have charged anyone and not made at least one attack on them with pounce or not.

Quite frequently as a player, and for that matter as a GM I have seen the target of the pounce fall unconscious or die on the first attack. In which case I would switch targets. Which as a player, allows me more freedom and as a GM allows more players to live. If I knock a guy out on my first attack or two, and can't switch targets well I'm sorry but that is 100% a dead player on the ground as he eats the rest of the attacks from the pounce.

The case I see support for is that the creature or player charge one opponent and is free in the case of pounce to make attacks on the creature he charged and anyone else within reach with his full attack action. There is no streching of the creature in this case, and I don't see support for attacking people while you move. You charge to a space which is legal to attack one creature, you than are free to attack that creature and anyone else that happens to be within reach. Most often this will be his friend standing directly next to him, since a lot of pouncers only have 5 foot reach.

[Seravix]

Thanks Kazumetsa and Alexander for your responses. I'll see if anyone else wants to add their thoughts and findings on the subject.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Oh sorry! That's a +2 attack on each attack on that target. My apologies. I was thinking you had Death from Above for some unusual reason. If you did have Death from Above, and were of higher ground or whatever, you'd get a +5 to each attack(holy cow).

[Evilserran]

I would say you can attack other targets. Your intiial target must be the one charged, to make the move legal. Then the strike causing the grapple, must also be the rake target, as it can only be used upon starting or maintaining a grapple.

[Otm-Shank]

Rake attacks can also be used as part of a pounce.

[Evilserran]

I didnt say it couldnt, but as it is intended to be used with your grapple target, it should/would be used upon whichever of the targets you are striking with that attack.

[Otm-Shank]

You mean the rakes should target the subject of the charge? The lion may have a grab attack but there are creature/builds that have pounce and rake attacks but no grab.

[Driver 325 yards]

Yes to all of your questions, even the last question.

[Evilserran]

Under the lion, which is the creature in question, it can only rake when successfully initiating or maintaing a grapple. Therefore, the attack causing the grapple condition, whether succeeding or failing, should be the target of the rake. Other creatures are not beholden to that rule, so they would have a different ruling.

[Darkin]

Evilserran wrote:

Under the lion, which is the creature in question, it can only rake when successfully initiating or maintaing a grapple. Therefore, the attack causing the grapple condition, whether succeeding or failing, should be the target of the rake. Other creatures are not beholden to that rule, so they would have a different ruling.

Actually the only reason a lion could rake on the same turn he started az grapple is because he is using pounce with grab. usually rakes can only be used during a grapple but NOT the round that grapple was initiated.

[Otm-Shank]

Not quite true, a lion's rake is no different than most creatures. The pounce ability allows you to make rake attacks as part of your attack routine completely independent of any attempts to grapple the target.

[Darkin]

Otm-Shank wrote:

You mean the rakes should target the subject of the charge? The lion may have a grab attack but there are creature/builds that have pounce and rake attacks but no grab.

Rake Attacks, even though are extra claw attacks, do NOT have Grab unless it specifically says so in the entry for rake under special attacks. In this case, lions cannot grab on the rake attacks.

[Darkin]

Evilserran wrote:

Under the lion, which is the creature in question, it can only rake when successfully initiating or maintaing a grapple. Therefore, the attack causing the grapple condition, whether succeeding or failing, should be the target of the rake. Other creatures are not beholden to that rule, so they would have a different ruling.

Lions cannot rake when successfully initiating a grapple, or maintaining a grapple if it is the same round the grapple was initiated unless those rakes are coming from the Pounce special attack.

"A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks."

[Honorable Goblin]

Seravix wrote:

Can a lion or other creature with pounce hit multiple targets assuming the charge movement is legit? Like 2 characters standing adjacent to each other and the lion charges them. I want to say no since your designating a target, but I want to hear if anyone else has info/faxes to back it up. I haven't seen many forums on this so thought it a good question.

RAW, I believe so. RAI is another story; this FAQ says: "Any melee attack sequence you can perform as a full attack is allowed as part of the charge-pounce-full attack," but when you charge, you have to designate a target for your attack (singular). It may depend on the meaning of "attack sequence," whether attacking multiple creatures would be considered one.

Seravix wrote:

Do you get +2 to all your attacks on pounce. I believe this was a yes overall on forum board. But always good to ask.

RAW, maybe; RAI I don't think so. At my table you'd only get the +2 on the first attack for the same reason lance iteratives don't get bonus damage. (See this FAQ)

Seravix wrote:

Last question...and sorta strange...just came to me while looking at others pounce info. If your mounted and have the pounce ability..do you get all your attacks? This could setup some ugly situations...if say you were mounted and charging with a lance or two with triple/quadruple damage on each attack.

According to SKR, you do not get to pounce-full-attack if it is your mount that is charging. Personally, I think the mounted combat rules need a complete re-write (though it's not going to happen any time soon) because it seems as though half of the rules/feats were written by one team and the other half by another team and there was no communication between the two.