Multiple Monk Questions

[naaberle]

Let me start this simply by saying I realize there are a vast number of monk threads out there, some possibly answering my questions. However for a new player a 1,000 post thread is extremely daunting. I apologize if a question I ask has already been posted somewhere.

First 2 speculative questions.

1. After reading about the brass knuckles errata I was curious as to why a 'weapon' with no damage stats couldn't be created that would allow a character to apply unarmed damage but still upgrade it materially and magically, if only up to a +5 bonus. I'm not concerned about anything other than if there is a mechanical or game breaking reason this couldn't be created.

2. Something we all learn in middle school is that force = mass x acceleration. Well our characters mass doesn't change for the most part so as a melee fighter we only have control over the acceleration part. As a martial artist myself I can tell you first hand that strength can only take you so far in increasing your speed. It all comes down to proper technique and body movement. So once again, mechanically is there any reason unarmed attacks couldn't use Dex for hit and damage as opposed to Str? Obviously wielding a sword or axe requires an amount of Str to properly hit, without a weapon something like Dex is fair more important in hitting and damaging a target.

Now onto rules questions.

3. From what I've been able to find a character can purchase cold iron/mithral/adamantine horseshoes for their companion to allow them to overcome DR when in combat. Under that same pretense if I create a Tiefling with the "Fiendish Sprinter" racial trait and specify I have hooves, would I be able to place Cold Iron horseshoes on my hooves? Additionally would that allow Flurry of Blow's to bypass DR/Cold Iron since it has been stated that FoB can be used with legs/feet if I so choose?

4. Next, if I do a combat maneuver and have natural attacks, do they all come as secondary or does a CM not count towards the primary natural attack?

5. Would I be able to only use natural attacks on a full attack action or could I move -> trip -> claw, claw, bite?

Once again I realize some of these may have answers out there, a link would be fine as an answer. I am so far really liking my Monk, although I think I'm going to switch from MoMS to MM before the next game.

[Archaeik]

1. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're asking about changing the slot that AMF uses?

The developers advise caution when considering such changes as the published items have been designed to encourage deliberate choices.

The issue with AMF/+5 limits has to do with its innate versatility and the fact that creatures can have a lot of natural attacks.

2. Essentially, you're asking if monks can have Weapon Finesse for free? It's not RAW by any means, but I've seen this suggested before.
Edit: I missed your damage bit: This is absolutely not RAW, and requires the Agile weapon enchant. I would advise against giving both Weapon Finesse and Agile for free.

3. From what I've gleaned, there are a few issues.
-Horseshoe items tend to require all 4 to turn on any magical effects they grant.
-Unarmed strikes are not intended to benefit this way. If you are attack with the horseshoes (which I'm not sure is covered by the rules*), the horseshoes would be considered the weapon, and have their own damage instead of using UAS damage.

*This doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means you have to extrapolate appropriate rules yourself. (however, this wouldn't be a good idea for organized play)

4. Disarm, Trip and Sunder all replace a manufactured attack. If you take a full attack action, you get all of your iteratives + natural attacks(as secondary natural weapons) as normal (FoB specifically disallows natural attacks however). If you perform any other maneuver, it is a standard action and you can't add any additional attacks to it.

5. You may only combine manufactured and natural attacks during a full attack.
Edit: The scenario you suggest would be possible if you acquire Pounce. (full attack after a charge)

[Tholomyes]

Disclaimer: These are not RAW answers, but I think going strictly RAW on monks is a recipe for disaster, since by the RAW, monks need a lot of work.

1)It's is completely non-RAW, but I would advise you or your DM just treating AoMF as a weapon-slot item, and giving it the standard weapon's cap

Archaeik wrote:

2. Essentially, you're asking if monks can have Weapon Finesse for free? It's not RAW by any means, but I've seen this suggested before.

Edit: I missed your damage bit: This is absolutely not RAW, and requires the Agile weapon enchant. I would advise against giving both Weapon Finesse and Agile for free.

Again, it's not RAW, but I disagree heavily. If you or your DM are open to it, giving Weapon Finesse and Agile enchantment free goes a long way towards stopping MAD, by making Strength much less important, similar to the way they cut out the Wisdom req from paladins, which would bring them both down to the manageable MADness of 3 required stats. It doesn't stop all the problems that the monk faces, but it makes it more manageable.

[Archaeik]

Tholomyes wrote:

Disclaimer: These are not RAW answers, but I think going strictly RAW on monks is a recipe for disaster, since by the RAW, monks need a lot of work.

1)It's is completely non-RAW, but I would advise you or your DM just treating AoMF as a weapon-slot item, and giving it the standard weapon's cap

Archaeik wrote:

2. Essentially, you're asking if monks can have Weapon Finesse for free? It's not RAW by any means, but I've seen this suggested before.

Edit: I missed your damage bit: This is absolutely not RAW, and requires the Agile weapon enchant. I would advise against giving both Weapon Finesse and Agile for free.

Again, it's not RAW, but I disagree heavily. If you or your DM are open to it, giving Weapon Finesse and Agile enchantment free goes a long way towards stopping MAD, by making Strength much less important, similar to the way they cut out the Wisdom req from paladins, which would bring them both down to the manageable MADness of 3 required stats. It doesn't stop all the problems that the monk faces, but it makes it more manageable.

My problem with these arguments is that it assumes monks should essentially be as good as a fighter (or even better) at doing what a fighter is designed to do.

Monks do not need to be damage beasts to be useful. They get a number of boons (like all good saves) that make giving them significant, additional benefits quite unreasonable. (We already have enough unreasonable classes)
Monks need some love, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. The mechanics in place that cost resources are already sufficient to reduce MAD, you don't need to hand it out like candy.
Although, I will admit, I'm mostly using archetypes as a basis to say this. I find the base monk quite boring.

[James Risner]

naaberle wrote:

1. 'weapon' with no damage stats couldn't be created that would allow a character to apply unarmed damage

2. any reason unarmed attacks couldn't use Dex for hit and damage as opposed to Str?

3a. cold iron/mithral/adamantine horseshoes for their companion to allow them to overcome DR when in combat.

3b. "Fiendish Sprinter" Cold Iron horseshoes on my hooves?

3c. Flurry of Blow's to bypass DR/Cold Iron

4. combat maneuver and have natural attacks, do they all come as secondary

5. could I move -> trip -> claw, claw, bite?

1) Balance, it is a balance problem.

2) You certainly can, with the Weapon Finesse feat.

3a) Rules quote, because this doesn't sound right.

3b) See 3a, this doesn't sound right. I'd disallow without an explicit rules line to assert this is possible.

3c) See 3a/3b. Should not be allowed for balance reasons.

4) CM's are attacks, if you take non-natural attacks you do so as secondard -5 and as 0.5 STR.

5) No, that is a full attack action. Two or more attacks is full attack unless the ability says otherwise (like Cleave.)

[MurphysParadox]

Regarding #3. I allowed my party to make Amulets of Mighty Fists out of a particular metal. It cost the same additional gold as making a weapon out of adamantine or silver (actually, to be in line with AoMF's costs, I should have made it twice as expensive) and it provides the additional DR overcoming qualities. Note: if done with cold iron, the AoMF should cost a bit more to enchant, just like a cold iron sword.

It is worth noting that Monks are far less bothered by the DR issue than other classes. The most recent version of the monk attacks do the following, provided you can do a ki strike (just requires you to have a Ki Pool with at least 1 point remaining; it requires no expenditure of ki points):

* At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage
* At 7th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as cold iron and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
* At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
* At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

[Bizbag]

And if a monk is having problems with other kinds of DR, you can always get an Anarchic Kama or something, or oils of Align Weapon.

[naaberle]

Thanks for the answers, I kind of assumed the horseshoe's bit was a massive stretch, and full of cheese for sure. Plus I'd always look like Phil from Hercules.

As far as the DR goes, it seems a bit late to get Cold Iron and Silver at level 7 when my ranger just bought a Cold Iron weapon after his second adventure. And I know a few level 4 characters with Cold Iron and Mithral versions in their handy haversack to draw on demand.

Now on to the next question.

If I create a maneuver master and perform a flurry of maneuvers can I couple that with natural secondary attacks as it does not say I can't as is it does in the FoB entry?

Flurry of Maneuvers:

Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows.

[Archaeik]

Since Flurry of Maneuvers augments a "full attack action" and replaces FoB, it no longer has the restrictions.

However, there are some literalistic issues in comparison to how a normal flurry works.

• Only maneuvers suffer the -2 penalty.
  
• Only the bonus maneuvers use "monk level" in place of BAB
  
• But that is potentially a bad thing, compare:
  
  FoB wrote:

  ... the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level

  This means, RAW, FoM forces you to replace your BAB with monk level, even if it is lower (but only on the bonus maneuvers).

If you want to talk about RAI; well, I'm not exactly sure, but it seems like the author wrote it from a perspective of modifying how FoB works, changing the TWF equivalent attacks into additional maneuvers... Whether this means they also thought all attacks made during a FoM should use "increased BAB" -2, I'm not sure.
Currently, you could even stack TWF with FoM since it says "as part of a full attack action".

[seebs]

"... the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level"

"This means, RAW, FoM forces you to replace your BAB with monk level, even if it is lower (but only on the bonus maneuvers)."

No, it doesn't. "base attack bonus from his monk class levels" clearly does not mean "total base attack bonus". It means you add your monk level instead of the BAB for a monk of that level to your BAB from any other classes.

[James Risner]

seebs wrote:

No, it doesn't. "base attack bonus from his monk class levels" clearly does not mean "total base attack bonus". It means you add your monk level instead of the BAB for a monk of that level to your BAB from any other classes.

+1

[Zhayne]

BTW, the brass knuckles were changed almost entirely because one of the devs just didn't like it. 'When I think of Bruce Lee, I remember all the times he used brass knuckles', I think the line was.

(What about all the times he teleported and talked to plants and animals?)

[Archaeik]

seebs wrote:

"... the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level"

"This means, RAW, FoM forces you to replace your BAB with monk level, even if it is lower (but only on the bonus maneuvers)."

No, it doesn't. "base attack bonus from his monk class levels" clearly does not mean "total base attack bonus". It means you add your monk level instead of the BAB for a monk of that level to your BAB from any other classes.

You're ignoring the text from Flurry of Maneuvers and taking what I wrote out of context.

I made statements about FoM, and said to compare to FoB.

Flurry of Maneuvers wrote:

... The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, ...

While RAI for FoM is identical to FoB, RAW is consistent with what I said.

[Bizbag]

naaberle wrote:

As far as the DR goes, it seems a bit late to get Cold Iron and Silver at level 7 when my ranger just bought a Cold Iron weapon after his second adventure. And I know a few level 4 characters with Cold Iron and Mithral versions in their handy haversack to draw on demand.

Nothing is preventing you from buying a Cold Iron Kama after your second adventure and using that.

Level 7 is actually *earlier* than when that same ranger would have his regular weapon be a straight +3 weapon, at which point it would automatically count as silver OR cold iron for DR/ purposes.

[James Risner]

Zhayne wrote:

BTW, the brass knuckles were changed

When was it changed, I've never seen it work with unarmed damage in PF. I also remember it being a heatedly discussed topic in 3.5 world.

Archaeik wrote:

While RAI for FoM is identical to FoB, RAW is consistent with what I said.

The multiclassing rules (page 30/31 of Core) cover this. Classes are written with single class in mind. If you are multiclass, you add together things like BAB from other classes.

[Archaeik]

Archaeik wrote:

While RAI for FoM is identical to FoB, RAW is consistent with what I said.

The multiclassing rules (page 30/31 of Core) cover this. Classes are written with single class in mind. If you are multiclass, you add together things like BAB from other classes.

Let's take a look at those then

Multiclassing wrote:

Instead of gaining the abilities granted by the next level in your character's current class, he can instead gain the 1st-level abilities of a new class, adding all of those abilities to his existing ones. This is known as “multiclassing.”

For example, let's say a 5th-level fighter decides to dabble in the arcane arts, and adds one level of wizard when he advances to 6th level. Such a character would have the powers and abilities of both a 5th-level fighter and a 1st-level wizard, but would still be considered a 6th-level character. (His class levels would be 5th and 1st, but his total character level is 6th.) He keeps all of his bonus feats gained from 5 levels of fighter, but can now also cast 1st-level spells and picks an arcane school. He adds all of the hit points, base attack bonuses, and saving throw bonuses from a 1st-level wizard on top of those gained from being a 5th-level fighter.

Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

I'm am not arguing intent here, only RAW. BAB overall falls under the "total hit dice" clause above the part I bolded.

Flurry of Maneuvers, however, is a class feature that replaces BAB (not just monk BAB) with monk level during the bonus maneuvers it grants. These bonus maneuvers quite clearly fall under "class ability", even though BAB does not.

I do not advocate playing this way.

[James Risner]

Archaeik wrote:

Class Abilities

This is things like:

Spells
Needing 2 levels of Paladin to get Divine Grace
etc

[naaberle]

So let me check my math here.

Level 1 Monk (Maneuver Master)/Level 1 Fighter

Str 10
Dex 18

BAB = 1 (Fighter)

Feat: Agile Maneuvers

Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +3 (+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)
Trip +3 (+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)

VS.

Level 1 Monk (Maneuver Master)/Level 1 Ninja

Str 10
Dex 18

BAB = 0

Feat: Agile Maneuvers

Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +3 CMB(+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)
Trip +3 CMB(+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)

Does that look correct to everyone?

[James Risner]

The MM/Fighter CMB will be 1 higher than MM/Ninja CMB.

[naaberle]

So FoB BAB calculation only affects the monk level, not the total BAB?

[Pupsocket]

naaberle wrote:

2. Something we all learn in middle school is that force = mass x acceleration. Well our characters mass doesn't change for the most part so as a melee fighter we only have control over the acceleration part. As a martial artist myself I can tell you first hand that strength can only take you so far in increasing your speed. It all comes down to proper technique and body movement. So once again, mechanically is there any reason unarmed attacks couldn't use Dex for hit and damage as opposed to Str? Obviously wielding a sword or axe requires an amount of Str to properly hit, without a weapon something like Dex is fair more important in hitting and damaging a target.

And that's why Boxing, MMA and other fighting events don't use weight classes *eyeroll*. If this is the kind of garbage you're being taught, get a new sensei.

[naaberle]

Pupsocket wrote:

naaberle wrote:

2. Something we all learn in middle school is that force = mass x acceleration. Well our characters mass doesn't change for the most part so as a melee fighter we only have control over the acceleration part. As a martial artist myself I can tell you first hand that strength can only take you so far in increasing your speed. It all comes down to proper technique and body movement. So once again, mechanically is there any reason unarmed attacks couldn't use Dex for hit and damage as opposed to Str? Obviously wielding a sword or axe requires an amount of Str to properly hit, without a weapon something like Dex is fair more important in hitting and damaging a target.

And that's why Boxing, MMA and other fighting events don't use weight classes *eyeroll*. If this is the kind of garbage you're being taught, get a new sensei.

Well firstly I don't think there is any need to slander another's training, everyone and all forms come from different walks of life. At the top all martial arts are the same and it really comes down to the fighter more than any particular style. That being said sporting events with rule systems are far different than any real world street self-defense situation. Just because there are weight classes do you doubt that smaller, faster fighters wouldn't be able to defeat larger fighters?

If there was no hope for a small, unmuscular fighter to develop enough speed and technique to defend himself against a larger opponent then why would such a person take martial arts in the first place? Martial arts weren't developed by large people, in a completely martial arts free world they already have the advantage, there would have never been a need for such extensive training systems. They were created to give smaller individuals the speed and ability to take down larger opponents. They definitely won't have more mass or strength than their opponent, but they can make up for that with increased speed and technique.

Lastly, telling me to get a new 'sensei' is insinuating that I do a Japanese martial art, and completely ignoring every other system in the world. Perhaps I do Sambo, or Capoeira or anyone of the hundred other systems in the world. Additionally assuming a random martial artist you've never met has a 'sensei' is the same crap logic that leads everyone to believe (apparently Paizo as well) that all monks have to be of Asian descent.

[VargrBoartusk]

Zhayne wrote:

BTW, the brass knuckles were changed almost entirely because one of the devs just didn't like it. 'When I think of Bruce Lee, I remember all the times he used brass knuckles', I think the line was.

(What about all the times he teleported and talked to plants and animals?)

That was SKR.. He tends to have the.. Least padded delivery of his opinions among paizo staff.. He also has very strong opinions on what is and is not over powered that do not always line up with math and number crunching.

[Pupsocket]

naaberle wrote:

Just because there are weight classes do you doubt that smaller, faster fighters wouldn't be able to defeat larger fighters?

Small and fast might (might!) defeat strong and slow, but big and fast will beat small and fast 99 out of 100. There's speed, there's technique...and there's strength, reach and leverage.

naaberle wrote:

Martial arts weren't developed by large people, in a completely martial arts free world they already have the advantage, there would have never been a need for such extensive training systems. They were created to give smaller individuals the speed and ability to take down larger opponents. They definitely won't have more mass or strength than their opponent, but they can make up for that with increased speed and technique.

Martial arts were not originally invented as self-defense systems, but as combat systems. By and for people who fought. People who were, almost universally, bigger and stronger than the average for their ethnic group.

naaberle wrote:

Lastly, telling me to get a new 'sensei' is insinuating that I do a Japanese martial art, and completely ignoring every other system in the world. Perhaps I do Sambo, or Capoeira or anyone of the hundred other systems in the world. Additionally assuming a random martial artist you've never met has a 'sensei' is the same crap logic that leads everyone to believe (apparently Paizo as well) that all monks have to be of Asian descent.

But it got the message across. Besides, if I had said "teacher", you might have thought I meant "physics teacher", and that my problem was with your failure to grasp a=F/m.

[Pupsocket]

VargrBoartusk wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

BTW, the brass knuckles were changed almost entirely because one of the devs just didn't like it. 'When I think of Bruce Lee, I remember all the times he used brass knuckles', I think the line was.

(What about all the times he teleported and talked to plants and animals?)

That was SKR.. He tends to have the.. Least padded delivery of his opinions among paizo staff.. He also has very strong opinions on what is and is not over powered that do not always line up with math and number crunching.

When SKR was 23, a Shao-lin performer stole his girlfriend. He's been hating on monks ever since. True story.

[Krodjin]

Pupsocket wrote:

naaberle wrote:

2. Something we all learn in middle school is that force = mass x acceleration. Well our characters mass doesn't change for the most part so as a melee fighter we only have control over the acceleration part. As a martial artist myself I can tell you first hand that strength can only take you so far in increasing your speed. It all comes down to proper technique and body movement. So once again, mechanically is there any reason unarmed attacks couldn't use Dex for hit and damage as opposed to Str? Obviously wielding a sword or axe requires an amount of Str to properly hit, without a weapon something like Dex is fair more important in hitting and damaging a target.

And that's why Boxing, MMA and other fighting events don't use weight classes *eyeroll*. If this is the kind of garbage you're being taught, get a new sensei.

No need to be a jerk Pupsocket.

[TheSideKick]

naaberle wrote:

2. Something we all learn in middle school is that force = mass x acceleration. Well our characters mass doesn't change for the most part so as a melee fighter we only have control over the acceleration part. As a martial artist myself I can tell you first hand that strength can only take you so far in increasing your speed. It all comes down to proper technique and body movement. So once again, mechanically is there any reason unarmed attacks couldn't use Dex for hit and damage as opposed to Str? Obviously wielding a sword or axe requires an amount of Str to properly hit, without a weapon something like Dex is fair more important in hitting and damaging a target.

you have a misconception about your second question.

2. Strength is your ability to apply force (damage), that includes speed and technique. i know we all have a misconception in our minds that a "strong person" looks and fights like Arnold Schwarzenegger but this isnt true. your size does not determine your strength. Dexterity is your ability to react and negate damage. "Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance" not damage. you would need a magical source to allow for your ability to be agile or reactive to deal damage (agile weapon property)

and its power = mass x (velocity squared), not acceleration

[Majuba]

naaberle wrote:

So let me check my math here.

Level 1 Monk (Maneuver Master)/Level 1 Fighter

Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +3 (+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)
Trip +3 (+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)

VS.

Level 1 Monk (Maneuver Master)/Level 1 Ninja

Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +3 CMB(+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)
Trip +3 CMB(+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)

Does that look correct to everyone?

No.. here:

Monk/Ftr:
Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +4 (+4 Dex, +2 BAB, -2 FoM) {Bonus}
Trip +3 (+4 Dex, +1 BAB, -2 FoM)

Monk/Ninja:
Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +3 CMB(+4 Dex, +1 BAB, -2 FoM) {Bonus}
Trip +2 CMB(+4 Dex, +0 BAB, -2 FoM)

You get the Fighter BAB to both maneuvers. You only get the monk-level-as-BAB to the Bonus Maneuver.

[Tholomyes]

TheSideKick wrote:

[...]its power = mass x (velocity squared), not acceleration

Technically Power is the time-varying derivative of Energy. Energy (at least kinetic) is mostly as you described: mass*(velocity)^2/2; Power, would thus be (assuming mass as a function of time is constant) mass*velocity*acceleration. Though really, it's Force which roughly corresponds to damage, which his definition is accurate.

Not to say that naaberle is really correct (and, furthermore, I don't see why physics is really coming up in a discussion about a fantasy RPG, whose aim should be to replicate fantasy and related tropes) but him being incorrect has less to do with physics, and more to do with understanding how parts of combat are abstracted in PF.

[VargrBoartusk]

Pupsocket wrote:

VargrBoartusk wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

BTW, the brass knuckles were changed almost entirely because one of the devs just didn't like it. 'When I think of Bruce Lee, I remember all the times he used brass knuckles', I think the line was.

(What about all the times he teleported and talked to plants and animals?)

That was SKR.. He tends to have the.. Least padded delivery of his opinions among paizo staff.. He also has very strong opinions on what is and is not over powered that do not always line up with math and number crunching.

When SKR was 23, a Shao-lin performer stole his girlfriend. He's been hating on monks ever since. True story.

Best.. Response.. Ever.. Thsnk you for making 'How I Meet You're Game Designer' a thing in my head.

[YRM]

They confirmed a while back that the unarmed strike of a Monk counts as one natural weapon, so, it's pretty cost effective to find ways to add Greater Magic Fang to your "body" (applies to all attacks).

This lasts 1 hour per level and grows in power.

Enlarge and Greater Magic Fang are excellent spells to look to make permanent on a Monk. It is possible that they can be dispelled, but only if the wizard dispelling is higher level than the wizard making it permanent (if memory serves).

Greater Magic Fang is an hour per caster level, and even if you have to buy a Wand with 10 charges at CL 8, it's only 3600. That gives you +2 attack and damage on your flurry of blows, just about every session, for 10 sessions. Most likely, you'll use 2-3 charges per session, and by the time you run out, you'll have leveled up a few times anyway, and buy a more powerful wand.

As both a player and DM, I know that players seek very special items. Wizards seek Metamagic Rods, all classes seek the right headband or girdle to improve their stats, and Fighters seek the exact right enchantments for their sword or shield to fit their style.

All of this stuff is accepted as normal.

So why would it be unreasonable for a Monk to seek out spellcasters in a big city to permanently enlarge and GMF the Monk?

If it does get Dispelled in 5-6 sessions, then, do the same kind of work that a Wizard does to replace a familiar or bonded object and get the spells put back on you.

And with Monks not needing to spend as much money on a magic sword, or shield, or armor, they can spend the money on Multi Ability boosting belts and headbands.

In other words, I don't think you need to skimp on STR or need enchanted brass knux to get the end result you want as a Monk.

Additionally, a super fast, enchanged, enlarged monk is the best non-spellcasting class for getting to and disabling enemy casters of any kind.

There are defenses that work against a Monk, but, a caster is much more at a disadvantage vs a Monk than a Fighter.

These things offset the other Fighter advantages... so while the Fighter is holding off the enemy linemen, the Monk is sacking the enemy quarterback with a safety blitz.

It's much harder to turn the Monk against the party or make him useless too, such as with a confusion or charm or dominate or hold spell.

All the best man, and enjoy it... a well built Monk is extremely fun to play and effective if approached correctly.

[Arkady Zelenka]

Well said YRM.

[Kazaan]

Majuba wrote:

naaberle wrote:

So let me check my math here.

Level 1 Monk (Maneuver Master)/Level 1 Fighter

Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +3 (+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)
Trip +3 (+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)

VS.

Level 1 Monk (Maneuver Master)/Level 1 Ninja

Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +3 CMB(+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)
Trip +3 CMB(+4 Dex, +1 Monk Level, -2 FoM)

Does that look correct to everyone?

No.. here:

Monk/Ftr:
Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +4 (+4 Dex, +2 BAB, -2 FoM) {Bonus}
Trip +3 (+4 Dex, +1 BAB, -2 FoM)

Monk/Ninja:
Full Attack: FoM - Dirty Trick +3 CMB(+4 Dex, +1 BAB, -2 FoM) {Bonus}
Trip +2 CMB(+4 Dex, +0 BAB, -2 FoM)

You get the Fighter BAB to both maneuvers. You only get the monk-level-as-BAB to the Bonus Maneuver.

That's technically correct (the best kind of correct), but it only applies up to lvl 2. At lvl 3, a Monk gets Maneuver Training which uses Monk Level in place of Monk BAB for all maneuvers.