Ok, so another thread about the magambyan arcanist got my thinking about the quality of various summoners (that arent of the summoner class). Specifically, I was wondering which would make the best & why. I currently see 3 interesting options:
1) Sorcerer: Summon monster (all), able to take most useful feats (such as "summon good monsters", "augmented summons"), with certain bloodlines boosting summons. Also, most potential castings.
2) Druid: They get a buttload of potential feats (starlight, sunlight & moonlight summons), decent list (if not as exhaustive as summon monster).
3) Wizard: While they do seem to basically be a "sorcerer-lite", they do get one advantage, the "magambyan arcanist" archetype that can allow them to learn summon nature's ally & gain access to starlight, sunlight & moonlight summons. (I think the prerequ of casting "summon nature's ally" is vague since there are 9 versions of the spell).
So, what do others think? I'll be working on a "magambyan arcanist" in the following days, just to test it out, but I'm wondering what others think.
Druids suck. All they can summon are meatshields and beatsticks, but nothing with subtlety or effective magic.
Cleric for Sacred Summons to get Standard Action summons, which is what really pumps the action economy.
Potentially consider Mystic Theurge with SLA entry to enter as a Wizard 2/Cleric 1 or vice versa for even more castings.
Wondring what you're talking about with the preservationist MOTDT; as far as I can tell, they only get summon nature's ally?
Still, it would be interesting to see an optimized prezervationist.
Sacred summons definitly worth it.
Druids are interesting summoners. Like a fusion between the synthesist and master summoner summoner archetypes.
The 5th level auto-crit cyclops with a great axe is pretty devastating at that level.
Druids can always summon and summon one level ahead of sorcerers.
Druids summons also bypass protection from X, banish, and other SM weaknesses.
Summon animals + animal growth is also very nice.
Downside? SNA is generally weaker than summon monster. But I would say a druid is stronger than a summon focused sorcerer or wizard.
So, seeing people's responses, a few things come on top:
1) Evangelist cleric+sacred summons; does have alignement issues
2) Preservationist alchemist; will have some problems with castings per day, but still, virtual full access to summons. WOndering if there is a way to make a "pure summoner" type though (ze pokemon master!), that doesnt go into melee.
My favorite (magambyan arcanist) will go to the wayside for the moment. I will test out those 2 though.
Well, for a human I could go (for a preservationist):
1 Spell focus (conj), Augmented Summons,
2
3 Planar Preservationist
4
5 Starlight Summons
6
7 Sunlight summons
8
9 Moonlight summons
I hate the spell focus (conj), since I cant use it, but at least it doesnt have any prerequisites. I really do wish there where an alchemist buffer now... Not sure what discoveries would be best, or ifthere's a decent alternative to the mutagen (which this guy wont use).
Cant qualify for it as an alchemist since it has a caster level requirement (and alchemists have no caster level, as per an FAQ a while back).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Got to thinking, is the expanded summons from "summon good monster" worth the possible trouble of protection from X? Or is it better to stick neutral?
I still think a druid could be a great summoner...
Animal growth plus SNA IX and superior summons = 1d4+2 colossal Brachiosaurus who then trample targets for 2d8+28 with a DC of 38
The cleric planar ally has always seemed superior to planar binding given the inherent helpfulness of the wording of the spell. In that sense, I'd choose them. The cleric's sacred summons is something I wished I could get for my master summoner. There are also other ways than being a summoner to get standard action summons. Yup, I'd go cleric.
|
The thing about Evangelists getting limited Bardic Performance ability is a feather in their cap, I'll admit - however, I was going to vouch for the Sorcerer myself, particularly of the Abyssal and Primal (variant Elemental) Bloodlines - and while you may be asking specifically for non-Summoners, keep the Master Summoner on your radar, if it isn't already - because I'm inclined to say they earn their name (I'm in the initial stages of playing one right now). One gets the feeling that anyone egomaniac enough to boss around demons, genies, and the like (including my favorite, mothmen as an alternative option for summon monster VI) and get away with it would and should have more Charisma than Wisdom - and yes, more spells per day than anyone else, AND as an arcane magician as opposed to divine, you aren't restricted to summoning monsters of certain alignments. If you want a pretty fair fraction of the kind of benefits offered by Bardic Music, there's also an often-overlooked gem (legal even in Pathfinder Society) called the Flagbearer feat - and yes, I'd say any monster the flagbearer summons is, by logical extension of their allegiance to you, of allegiance to whoever the flag represents, if only for the duration of their service to you. The planar binding spells are a different ball of wax than summon monster with regard to the strength of their allegiance, but I'd call them a logical shoe-in for conjuration aficionados, and that's where a powerful Charisma really comes in.
An Oracle of the Nature mystery has both SM and SNA (choose whichever of them you want as your spells for each level). As a nice bonus, they grant their animal summons a saving throw bonus equal to the character's charisma modifier.
As an aside, the Nature Oracle can also get an animal companion at full druid scaling, and can use their charisma for some defensive scores, reducing MADness.
If you really want, you can make it a Samsaran, to add more summoning-related spells to your repertoire, of course - but that goes for any spell-casting class, not just Oracle.
Hm, hadnt thought of the oracle. Definitly hold some advantages, though the cleric would be the least feat needy. Gotta think about this.
Edit, removed my post due to realizing I had made an error.
I still think a druid could be a great summoner...
Animal growth plus SNA IX and superior summons = 1d4+2 colossal Brachiosaurus who then trample targets for 2d8+28 with a DC of 38
Yeah, but that's just several big beatsticks. At 17th level, the flying marilith's not going to notice the brachiosauri except possibly as a light snack after she administers an epic-level smackdown.
Yeah, but that's just several big beatsticks. At 17th level, the flying marilith's not going to notice the brachiosauri except possibly as a light snack after she administers an epic-level smackdown.I still think a druid could be a great summoner...
Animal growth plus SNA IX and superior summons = 1d4+2 colossal Brachiosaurus who then trample targets for 2d8+28 with a DC of 38
That particular situation is solved by 1d3+1 elder air elementals. Not a unique solution to the druid, but it is a corner case.
That particular situation is solved by 1d3+1 elder air elementals. Not a unique solution to the druid, but it is a corner case.
No, it's not a corner case -- it's a fundamental weakness of SNA. Summon Monster at suitable levels generally gives you a choice of a blaster, a battlefield controller, or a beatstick. In many cases you can get a support caster as well. SNA gives you a choice of a beatstick, a beatstick, or a beatstick.
Okay, I thought I would go through the aspects of summoning as a cleric.
First off: What do the various alignments allow you to summon as standard actions with Sacred Summons? This is a pretty central piece of the puzzle, considering the action economy and the typical fight being over within a few rounds. For this discussion, we will assume that you have the same alignment your god does, because the aligned spells limitation will be at its minimum there. If your alignment differs, your summoning ability will be worse. Total possible options include the following, and for creatures that do not have alignment subtypes, any cleric can summon them.
Lawful Good: 3-Lantern Archon, 4-Hound Archon, 9-Trumpet Archon
Good: 9-Astral Deva
Chaotic Good: 5-Bralani, 6-Lillend, 9-Ghaele
Lawful Evil: 2-Lemure, 4-Hell Hound, 5-Bearded Devil, Kyton, 6-Erinyes, 7-Bone Devil, 8-Barbed Devil, 9-Ice Devil
Evil: 5-Salamander, Xill
Chaotic Evil: 3-Dretch, 5-Babau, 6-Shadow Demon, Succubus, 7-Bebelith, Vrock, 8-Hezrou, 9-Glabrezu, Nalfeshnee
Summon Good Monster adds the following creatures with alignment subtypes:
Lawful Good: 6-Legion Archon, 7-Shield Archon
Good: 3-Foo Dog, Silvanshee, 4-Foo Lion, 5-Vulpinal, 7-Movanic Deva, 8-Monadic Deva, 9-Leonal
Chaotic Good: 3-Lyrakien, 5-Bralani
A bit of this comes down to the wording of the Sacred Summons feat. The creature's alignment subtypes must match your aura exactly. So, how do you deal with the absence of alignment subtypes? A N god doesn't have any, does this mean EVERY creature that lacks subtypes can be summoned as a standard action? Does a Xill with only an Evil subtype match perfectly a Lawful Evil god's cleric's aura? If I were to guess at the intent, it would be that a creature with only a Good subtype would exactly match only a Neutral Good aura, and creatures without any alignment subtype are not eligible for summoning as standard actions. See, a cleric with a Neutral alignment gets access to the entirety of the summoning lists through normal summoning. Otherwise, if they can summon dire tigers, elementals and the like as standard actions, not to mention they can choose the appropriate template for the animals, they will ALWAYS come out on top of alignment comparisons.
Given that my interpretation is correct: LE and CE will have quite a few standard action summons, but in total, rather few options. NE gets fewer std action summon options, but more total options. Team Good has fewer altogether, which is changed by Summon Good Monster, which puts Good clerics close to Evil ones (though it costs a feat). With Summon Good Monster, you get a good number of total summons, AND a decent number of standard action summons. LG and CG, correspondingly, have a few more fast options, but fewer total. CN and LN have literally NO fast options, like the N ones, but decent totals.
So, all in all: The more neutral you are, the more total options you have, the less neutral, the more options for fast summoning with Sacred Summons. Also, LN, N and CN clerics gain nothing from the Sacred Summons feat. NG clerics are the ones who really want Summon Good Monster.
I should also add that I can't find the marilith on any of the summoning lists. Where did you get it from, Orfamay?
I should also add that I can't find the marilith on any of the summoning lists. Where did you get it from, Orfamay?
I pulled a stereotypical CR 17 encounter out of the Bestiary as the opponent against which Marthkus was facing when he decided to cast SNA IX.
If you look at the Marilith, it's absolutely bristling with spell-like abilities and other magical goodies. This isn't unusual at this level. But this also means that almost anything summonable by SNA is just going to be, at best, a wall of meat. If the marilith pays attention to the brachiosaurs at all, it will probably only be to fly over them, to teleport around them (and into the casting druid's face), or to stuff a blade barrier in their face to keep them away from whatever she's interested in playing with.
But this is fairly typical. If you look at any of the CR 17 monsters, a pack of dinosaurs is little more than a minor nuisance. If I'm going to burn my best spell on a monster, I'd like it to have better effect than that. I'd rather have the option to have an astral deva as a support caster.
A neutral good cleric can summon their animals with Sacred Summons which is stupid awesome.
Evangelist Cleric with the Heroism domain is probably the best at buffing their summons once they're out and able to take all the summoning feats.
No, They CAN'T. Sacred summons ONLY works with creatures that have alignment subtypes. Just the alignment is not enough. Thus, animals, even if made celestial, are not eligible, because the template doesn't give them any alignment subtypes. Sorry.
Jeez sorry. No need to yell. Still. Heroism aura with Inspire Courage is crazy good.
It is sort of an open question if a N cleric of a N god could do it.
It is sort of an open question if a N cleric of a N god could do it.
Well they don't exactly have the "neutral" subtype.
Wizard/Druid/Mystic Theurge.
|
The various shamanic druids get two really powerful advantages at least in the early to mid tiers
1) summon their particular beasties as a standard
2) summon templatized versions of their beastues
And there are some gems on the SNA lists (eg satyr)
Combine that with the fact that they can cast the spell spontaneously and its pretty powerful.
Not as powerful as a wizard of course. But at high levels a wizard or sorcerer pretty much is way more powerful than any other class :-)
With the Abyssal Bloodline at 15th level (11th with Robe of Arcane Heritage, 17th if you're going the Eldritch Heritage route) and Superior Summoning, you can summon 3 fiendish monsters of your highest summoning level with one spell. (Abyssal bumps it from 1 to 2, and since 2>1 Superior Summoning kicks in and bumps it to 3.)
A Samsaran wizard/sorcerer/witch can get Summon Monster 4 as a third-level spell, SM5 as fourth-level, SM7 as fifth-level, and/or SM8 as sixth-level by using Mystic Past Life to poach the appropriate spells from the Summoner list. Being able to cast summoning spells four levels early is very powerful if you're in the level 9-12 window.
With the Abyssal Bloodline at 15th level (11th with Robe of Arcane Heritage, 17th if you're going the Eldritch Heritage route) and Superior Summoning, you can summon 3 fiendish monsters of your highest summoning level with one spell. (Abyssal bumps it from 1 to 2, and since 2>1 Superior Summoning kicks in and bumps it to 3.)
A Samsaran wizard/sorcerer/witch can get Summon Monster 4 as a third-level spell, SM5 as fourth-level, SM7 as fifth-level, and/or SM8 as sixth-level by using Mystic Past Life to poach the appropriate spells from the Summoner list. Being able to cast summoning spells four levels early is very powerful if you're in the level 9-12 window.
Thats nasty. I'm gonna have to nab all of this.