Yes. More intelligence = more spells = more times you can transmute yourself. More intelligence = more skill points = more knowledge. More intelligence = more spellcraft = easier to add spells to book.
If you don't plan on throwing spells that require saving throws (and you're willing to spend money on pearls of power for bonus spells) you won't need much Int. At level 11 you'll be casting 6th level spells, so you'll need an Int of 16. If you plan to put your 4th and 8th level points into intelligence, you could therefore have a starting intelligence of 14; if you are willing to assume you can get a headband of Intelligence, you could even start lower.
I'd start off at least with an 18 in it, including racial bonus. For precisely the reason Zhayne said. Those extra spells help a lot at early level.
|
The difference between 14 INT and 18 INT is 2 skill ranks until level 5.
But the "cost" to do that is 8 build points(40% of my total (more if I wasn't an elf)). For a negligible benefit that doesn't show for four levels.
The difference between 14 INT ans 20 INT is a bit bigger. Three skill ranks and an additional level 1 spell.
But the "cost" here is even bigger- -15 build points(75%). That's a significant amount of STR or CON- -even for an elf.
Edit: fixed
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The difference between 14 INT and 18 INT is 2 skill ranks until level 7.
But the "cost" to do that is 8 build points(40% of my total (more if I wasn't an elf)). For a negligible benefit that doesn't show for six levels.
The difference between 14 INT ans 20 INT is a bit bigger. Three skill ranks and an additional level 1 spell.
But the "cost" here is even bigger- -15 build points(75%). That's a significant amount of STR or CON- -even for an elf.
Not true...it shows up immediately... bonus spells. Don't forget your initial allotment.
Not true...it shows up immediately... bonus spells.
No, with a 14 int, you get a bonus first and second level spell. With an 18 int, you get... a bonus first and second level spell. Until you hit 5th level, there's no difference between the two in terms of number of spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A 14 vs. an 18 int also means a DC of your first level spells of 15 instead of 13. That's equivalent, in terms of how often your spells have an effect, of a +2 to attack. If you're a blaster wizard who targets touch AC more than saves, or a battlefield control wizard whose spells don't have saves, or have effects even if they are saved against, that may not matter much, but it does if you're trying to use SoS, SoL or SoD spells.
It also means two more languages, which can be significant in some campaigns, and +2 to knowledge and spellcraft checks, which are usually a wizard's forté.
What other stat are you going to use with the points you aren't using in Int? Are you really going to jump into melee and whack things with a rapier or longsword?
16 INT = Access to 6th level spells at Level 11
I find that polymorph sorcerer does better than polymorph wizard.
The abyssal bloodline give a +6 inherent bonus to strength.
A 14 vs. an 18 int also means a DC of your first level spells of 15 instead of 13. That's equivalent, in terms of how often your spells have an effect, of a +2 to attack. If you're a blaster wizard who targets touch AC more than saves, or a battlefield control wizard whose spells don't have saves, or have effects even if they are saved against, that may not matter much, but it does if you're trying to use SoS, SoL or SoD spells.
It also means two more languages, which can be significant in some campaigns, and +2 to knowledge and spellcraft checks, which are usually a wizard's forté.
But if you are a buffing or summoning wizard... well, you might miss out on the extra languages (since very little on the summon monster list speaks common..although draconic, which you get for free, does have a fairly wide spread)
You could compare it to druids or clerics, who have to divide their attentions between their casting stat and their combat stats. Obviously, you are not exactly going to take a shield and mace up, but you can still benefit from supporting your physical stats, as it has been stated by others in the thread.
Is there something I have misunderstand? We have always thought that you only get the listet bonus spell from high ability score?
12 = 1 extra Level 1.
14 = 1 extra level 1 and 1 extra level 2.
16 = 1 extra level 1, 1 extra level 2 and 1 extra level 3.
18 = 1 extra level 1, 1 extra level 2, 1 extra level 3 and 1 extra level 4.
20 = 2 extra level 1, 1 extra level 2, 1 extra level 3, 1 extra level and 1 extra level 5.
etc..
There does "Not true. You start with a number of additional 1st level spells in your spellbook equal to your Int bonus." come from?
|
|
What other stat are you going to use with the points you aren't using in Int?
Strength.
Are you really going to jump into melee and whack things with a rapier or longsword?
I was actually thinking that free (arcane bond) masterwork quarterstaff at lower levels. Then, as polymoprhing becomes available, rhino horns, elemental slams, tail slaps, bites, wing buffets and the like.
And, should I keep her going past level 11, and gain access to transformation, maybe that quarterstaff again.
You could compare it to druids or clerics, who have to divide their attentions between their casting stat and their combat stats. Obviously, you are not exactly going to take a shield and mace up, but you can still benefit from supporting your physical stats, as it has been stated by others in the thread.
This is exactly what I'm trying to judge. Is, say 14 INT enough to do this? 16? 12?
Is there something I have misunderstand? We have always thought that you only get the listet bonus spell from high ability score?
12 = 1 extra Level 1.
14 = 1 extra level 1 and 1 extra level 2.
16 = 1 extra level 1, 1 extra level 2 and 1 extra level 3.
18 = 1 extra level 1, 1 extra level 2, 1 extra level 3 and 1 extra level 4.
20 = 2 extra level 1, 1 extra level 2, 1 extra level 3, 1 extra level and 1 extra level 5.
etc..There does "Not true. You start with a number of additional 1st level spells in your spellbook equal to your Int bonus." come from?
That table applies under this instance:
A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
The part where he starts with bonus spells in his spellbook is this part of the bit about spellbooks:
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic)
Ahhh its me that mix Spell Cast per Day up whit Spells Known.
Of course, "spells known" for a wizard boils down to "as many as you can afford to know" and is generally a non-issue by the end of the first adventure or so.
More intelligence than the Next guy who will try to outsmart you and take your shinies. He also needs more intelligence than you to outsmart you and take your shinies.
therefore, for the sake of the shinies, you must never stop the int hording.
How much intelligence does a wizard need? um…All of it?
You guys do realize that he is trying to make the arcane version of a wildshaping druid right?
OP wants to know how much of low int he can get away with so that he can pump his physical stats.
Assuming that PC's are exceptional, well above average in their chosen field, what is the starting Intelligence of NPC wizards?
For the most part, a PC wizard is assumed to have near/at/above genius level intelligence (18 is rather expected) just like a PC sorcerer will have an obnoxious charisma score, and a two handed barbarian is expected to have an 18 (or higher) sunk into his strength. But PC's are suppose to be heroic, better than he-doesn't-even-have-a-name-tag NPC version. I'm not comparing a fighter (PC) to a warrior (NPC), but a fighter (PC) to a fighter (NPC), and a wizard (PC) to a wizard (PC).
Do the rank-and-file wizards of the realm simply use the elite array, should it be assumed they are as exceptional as the heroes are, or does the 'non-elite' array apply to most of the world's wizards, dooming them to master only first three levels of spells (12 Int plus that +1 at 4th level)?
How much int does a wizard really need?
All of it. Yes, all.
More intelligence = more spellcraft = easier to add spells to book.
Spellcraft is a class skill. That is +3. Take 10 is +10. At 1st level, you have 1 rank (+1). To learn a 1st level spell, you need 16. You have 14. With a +2 mod, you can learn any 1st level spell without difficulty. To get a +2 mod, you need Int 14.
For 100 gp, you can get an item of +1 Comp Spellcraft, allowing you to start with an Int 12 and still learn your spells. As long as you put 1 rank in every other level, you can learn all the spells you can cast.
What a low spellcraft will not do well is crafting magic items. But even those are pretty low. Learning a 9th level spell is 15 + SL = 24. You get 9th level spells at 17th level. DC for an item made at your caster level is 5 + CL = 23. If you keep up your spellcraft enough to learn appropriate spells, you can craft anything up to your level.
/cevah
How much int does a wizard really need?
All of it. Yes, all.
You really should learn the difference between need and want.
Assuming that PC's are exceptional, well above average in their chosen field, what is the starting Intelligence of NPC wizards?
Once the character's basic concept has been determined, its ability scores must be assigned. Apply the NPC's racial modifiers after the scores have been assigned. For every four levels the NPC has attained, increase one of its scores by 1. If the NPC possesses levels in a PC class, it is considered a heroic NPC and receives better ability scores. These scores can be assigned in any order.
Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.
Heroic NPCs: The ability scores for a heroic NPC are: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.
Preset Ability Scores: Instead of assigning the scores, you can use Table: NPC Ability Scores to determine the NPC's ability scores, adjusting them as necessary to fit.
Per the table, an NPC Adept gets a 13 Int, and an NPC Wizard gets a 15. This is before the race adjustment. Since PF is Human centric, they are assumed human, and get the floating +2 stat adjustment for race. Therefore an arcane NPC has either 15 or 17 to start.
/cevah
You really should learn the difference between need and want.
For the wizard there is no difference. It's literally the bread and butter of your abilities. To be the best caster you can be you should take more at any opportunity. Otherwise, you should stop at 19 int so you can cast all your spells. Any more and you're beyond "need."
You really should learn the difference between need and want.For the wizard there is no difference. It's literally the bread and butter of your abilities. To be the best caster you can be you should take more at any opportunity. Otherwise, you should stop at 19 int so you can cast all your spells. Any more and you're beyond "need."
Try stopping at 16 -- we're talking PFS, so you'll never get the opportunity to learn spells higher than 6th level. And if you re-read the opening post, he's focusing on spells that don't allow saves (such as transformations), so the increased save DC that a high stat grants is irrelevant.
Try stopping at 16 -- we're talking PFS, so you'll never get the opportunity to learn spells higher than 6th level. And if you re-read the opening post, he's focusing on spells that don't allow saves (such as transformations), so the increased save DC that a high stat grants is irrelevant.
PFS is growing beyond 11th level last I heard.
|
If you are trying to be a Gish-type caster, you can settle with a 16INT by the end of your career, as long as you have the cash to up it if you play in 12+ modules ever. Starting with a 14 works for most gish casters, because the bonus spells you will want, and there are only so many buffs to pick up. I'd recommend going with a dip in x martial [I here some ranger archetypes are pretty frontloaded] and going Eldritch Knight after a little while, combined with the Magical Knack trait for full CL. Hope you have fun.
That is SO not true, as demonstrated above. I could roll a wizard who only needs a 14 at chargen quite easily. He would certainly WANT more, but hardly NEEDS more.
That's chargen. I'm talking max career int score.
That's chargen. I'm talking max career int score.
Shrug. Buy a headband. The +6 from the headband will carry you past PFS to 9th level spells.
The fact is you all you need is a 19 to cast level 9 spells. How you get there is beside the point.
Not much of a stat head but I'll give this a shot
Assume CR 13
The Bestiary monster statistics by CR lists the following for average monster statistics:
Good Save +16
Poor Save +12
Typical SR 24
So assume you use a 6th level spell at 11 th level, spell focus, a +6 stat item, and spell penetration.
Also assume 2 stat bumps go into Int.
Your DC is now 21+X where X is initial stat modifier
Your CL vs SR is +13
Chance of spell working successfully against bad save:
100*[ (chance of penetrating SR)*(chance of monster failing)]
100*[1-(24-13)*.05]*[(21+X-(Monster Save))*.05])
Assume you're attacking the bad save, 12
-> 100*.55*[(9+X)*.05]
IQ 14: X = 2; 30.25% chance
IQ 16: X = 3; 33% chance
IQ 18: X = 4; 35.75% chance
IQ 20: X = 5; 38.5%
Assume you're attacking the good save, 16
-> 100*.55*[(5+X)*.05]
IQ 14: X = 2; 19.25% chance
IQ 16: X = 3; 22% chance
IQ 18: X = 4; 24.75% chance
IQ 20: X = 5; 27.5%
Of course, these values are highly subject to the initial conditions, but it looks like it makes about a 8% difference.
For a foe w/o SR, against the bad save it's 55, 60, 65, and 70% for the different IQs roughly 15% difference ( what you expect, of course)
The numbers get much better with something like bouncing spell, but I'll skip that math for now.
Well, really really, all you need is an int of 11. PFS generally finances well enough to be able to buy and use scrolls. So, have 11 to cast your first level spells and then keep leveling in wizard subsisting on scrolls. Why do this? No clue. But, if you're going for absolute need, there it is, or you could likely just keep a 10 and cast entirely off scrolls. It would require an investment in charisma for UMD, though.
The fact is you all you need is a 19 to cast level 9 spells. How you get there is beside the point.
Actually, no. How you get there is precisely the point of this thread. He doesn't want a character that cast 9th level spells.
The OP asked for a PFS-legal build with minimum possible intelligence. A normal PFS wizarding career ends at level 12, which grants access to level 6 spells, so only a 16 is necessary at the end of your career. (It's possible to get up to 18th level or so if you spend thousands of dollars traveling to precisely the right conventions to play precisely the right modules in precisely the right order, but you can pick up the extra stat points you need by buying a stat-boost item.)
To have a 16 at level 12 -- level 11, really, because you can cast level 6 spells at level 11 -- you need a 14 at chargen. You then get a +1 at level 4 and another at level 8.
It would even be possible to start lower. If you are confident you can pick up a +2 intelligence item by level 6, you can start with a 12. You can cast up to level 2 spells at start, at level 4 your intelligence goes up to 13, you can cast up to level 3 spells, and at level 7, when you would ordinarily get access to level 4 spells, you have your headband to raise your intelligence the necessary point.
So the answer is not "all of it" or even "19." The number the OP is looking for is 14, or 12 with a bit of risk.
The scroll approach is ineffective against foes with SR, usually.
Not much of a stat head but I'll give this a shot
[snip]
Chance of spell working successfully against bad save:
The calculations aren't relevant. Re-read the opening post; he's focusing on buffing and self-transformation, neither of which need to penetrate SR or saves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The scroll approach is ineffective against foes with SR, usually.
Explain to me again how the foe's SR renders my beast shape II spell ineffective?
To have a 16 at level 12 -- level 11, really, because you can cast level 6 spells at level 11, you need a 14 at chargen. You then get a +1 at level 4 and another at level 8.
Then why is this thread still going?
To have a 16 at level 12 -- level 11, really, because you can cast level 6 spells at level 11, you need a 14 at chargen. You then get a +1 at level 4 and another at level 8.Then why is this thread still going?
Because people keep misinforming him that the answer is something like
How much int does a wizard really need?All of it. Yes, all.