We are starting a new campaign starting at level 1. We are using a very basic 10 point buy, but the DM is allowing the purchase of attribute points for experience. I have ALWAYS had problems figuring out what class to play. So far we have a Life Oracle, Archer Fighter, and a Swashbuckler (from advanced classes playtest). I am leaning toward a class that uses 2h weapons and can fill more than one roll. I was looking at a melee inquisitor, 2h ranger, or possibly a melee oracle. I'm not big into min/max, but I don't want to be useless in combat. I understand that no matter what I pick, I won't be able to compare to the min/max human archer fighter. I was wondering how good in combat the inquisitors or oracles would be in melee?
I was also thinking about a melee druid, but I don't want to be somewhat useless for 3 levels (or 5 levels if I use an archtype) until I get Wild Shape. Also are melee druids any good when NOT in Wild Shape? I was looking at either a Desert Druid, Mountain Druid, or a Saurian Shaman Druid.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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10 point buy really limits your options for MAD classes, so I would stay away from a Melee druid and the inquisitor. I'd recommend a ranger with the freebooter and urban ranger archetypes. You can buff your teammates, be the trap guy, and still be good with a two-handed sword with your combat style feats.
I have to agree with Imbicatus here. Unless the XP cost for attributes is fairly generous (which will lead to problems for the GM later on) its going to be hard to play anything with any amount of MADness. The ranger will give you the best variety. A melee fighter will provide the melee support and damage, but will be lacking in versatility. Same thing with a Barbarian.
I should add the costs for buying attributes.
8-10 for 1,000xp each
11-15 for 2,500xp each
16-18 for 5,000xp each
18-20 for 10,000xp each
The costs are not bad at all. No buying an attribute past 20 (before bonuses). I've been in campaigns of his before with this system and it never got out of hand. Do you still think that this would rule out MAD classes?
Yeah, at a 10 point buy... all your options are limited. I presonally would never play a 10 pt buy unless the system had built in increases (for example, +1 to a stat every level). What's the rate of exchange for more ability points? This is one of those cases where I think we need to know. Because I can see it pan out 2 ways:
1) Everybody boosts their stats at the smae time, nobody suffers. Everyone's equal.
2) SAD class members stick to their shtick, leave everybody else in the dust cause they're many levels above everyone else.
As for stats, before racial mods, you could have, for a "versatile" switch-hitter ranger:
Str: 14 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha: 7
Edit: after seeing your conversion rate, I still cant see MAD classes being survivable at low-level. I say go with ranger, since you dont get spellcasting until fourth you'll have the exp to spend on it. Druid is too costly, same for inquisitor.
A VERY good GM can make this work, and if you say it does, great, but it depends to what degree he adapts the campaign to mitigate the players weaknesses; the other PCs indicated are fairly SAD (cha, dex & dex respectively), and this kind of campaign encourages just that, especially if started at level 1.
Personally, I would go wizard, but that's me.
Inquisitors have their judgments and access to a lot of buff spells that can allow them to get away with having relatively low stats. I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly.
Wondering: how high do you expect to go? Because the costs are VERY significant before level 8, but become negligible afterwards.
As for inquisitors, yes, they get a lot of buffs, but that's mainly to compensate for low BAB (an they do have a very limited use per day). If you've got low stats on top of that, you're in trouble.
Note: Something that could help an inquisitor in this situation is to be a half orc, with "sacred tattoo" & the "fate's favored" trait. +2 to all saves. Combine that with the spell "divine power", and you've got a workable +2 attack/damage. It'll still be in limited uses per day, but can help survival at low levels.
I would actually recommend a summoner. Probably a mster summoner. Just keep your charisma barely high enough to cast your spells. Summon creatures for attack. Build your eidolon as a bodyguard for you (or maybe scout). Learn some general buff spells.
Here's something I think would work for an inquisitor. You WILL need to boost STR & AC somehow, but it could work.
Race: Half orc (sacred tattoo alternate racial trait)
Stats:
Str: 14+2 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 9 Wis: 14 Cha: 7
Traits: Fate's favored, ?
Your strategy: Sacred tattoo gives +1 luck bonus to all saves, fate's favored boosts it to +2.
-THe spell divine favor gives +1 luck bonus to attack/damage, also boosted to +2 with fate's favored.
Feats: Depending on what you expect to face, "favored judgment" might be worth it. Otherwise, take it until you can retrain to something else.
Alternative: take weapon finesse (then dervish dance at 3rd level) with the following stats:
Str: 9 Dex: 14+2 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 14 Cha: 7
You'll do less damage, but it can still work. Main problem will be weigth carried.
I would recommend the "conversion" inquisition to be a face. Think it CAN work, but it will require you boosting the dumped stats eventually, if only to protect from ability drain.
Wondering: how high do you expect to go? Because the costs are VERY significant before level 8, but become negligible afterwards.
We plan to play as long as we can. No set limits really. We are limited to what is legal in PFS, so no Master Summoner. My last character was a summoner and I wanted to avoid it. I want to try something new. I generally like hybrids, but that is tough with limited stats. I forgot to mention as well that I dont think it is a standard buy. To raise a stat, it is +1 and to lower it is -1. No matter how high or low you go. So 10 to 11 costs 1 and 18 to 19 costs 1 for building our characters.
Well, if it's "how high you can go" try my inquisitor build. Should survive at low level, and will be able to have it's weaknesses shored up later.
Edit: I just noticed your weird point-buy and that changes a LOT. Here's what I recoomend (for a str-build)
Str: 14+2 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 14 Cha: 8
The rest is the same as before.
I greatly appreciate your help and insight. Are there any particular archtypes that are great for inquisitors? I was looking at the Spellbreaker. Also it seems like Inquisitions are a bit underwhelming. Am I wrong?
I'd do a straight 2h half-orc fighter with sacred tattoo (in place of ferocity) and fate's favored (PFS legal?) for one of the two traits and use armor to compensate for a low (but not dumped) dexterity
S 18+2 D 10 C 14 I 10 W 10 Ch 8
The following at 1st level...
2h weapon +6 to hit, +7 damage
with weapon focus and power attack (you would get 2 feats at 1st level)...
2h weapon +6 to hit and +10 damage every swing (later, at 2nd level, pick up furious focus)
Beast Mode...
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You could make many SAD (single-ability dependant) class, and have it work well. A two-handed wielding barbarian would work very nicely, especially since the bonuses for rage are magnified with a 10-point buy.
A wizard or sorcerer can work very nicely even in a low buy in game.
One key point is that at low point buy games, class features and ability bonuses are magnified. A rogue doesn't get less sneak attack for having low scores, and a fighter doesn't get fewer bonus feats.
For a druid, they are much better in melee in wild shape, but you don't need to be a melee druid. The animal companion is just as good, no matter the point buy, so it will appear stronger with the lower buy in you are playing.
(I am very new to inquisitors, so my insights there are weak at best.)
Low ability scores primarily means that it will be tough to do the dual role or really versatile builds.
So magus where you need probably 4 decent abilities and can only dump charisma will be very difficult. Similarly the monk, paladin, melee-caster cleric, melee-caster druid, dragon disciple, etc... all will be difficult to do well.
Any class/build that focuses primarily on one stat is perfectly good. Wizard, Sorc, caster cleric, caster druid, THW barbarian, tank fighter, etc... will all work fine.
I greatly appreciate your help and insight. Are there any particular archtypes that are great for inquisitors? I was looking at the Spellbreaker. Also it seems like Inquisitions are a bit underwhelming. Am I wrong?
Spellbreaker is interesting, though I actually prefer the vanilla inquisitor.
And yes, you are wrong. Very much NOT underwhelming.Many of their class abilities work extremely well together. Monster lore, cunning initiative, judgements, bane, solo tactics, etc... No they don't get the instant "I WIN" buttons like time stop and dominate. But when you get several of those abilities adding together they are doing huge amounts of damage and/or are very resistant to enemy attacks.
They are however, more complicated than many classes. You have to know your abilities well and the different types of ways they can be used.
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I will throw my vote to the 2handed ranger. take archery feats, and grab power attack.
here is how LvL 3 looks.
max str, sec. dex
Point blank shot, power attack (human)
rapid shot (ranged fighter feat)
Deadly Aim
so with a bow at lvl 3. 1d8 3/4 or w/ deadly aim+ PBS 1d8+5/6 per arrow.
power attack greatsword- 2d6+ 5/6 or with PA- 2d6+8/9 iirc.
We are starting a new campaign starting at level 1. We are using a very basic 10 point buy, but the DM is allowing the purchase of attribute points for experience. I have ALWAYS had problems figuring out what class to play. So far we have a Life Oracle, Archer Fighter, and a Swashbuckler (from advanced classes playtest). I am leaning toward a class that uses 2h weapons and can fill more than one roll. I was looking at a melee inquisitor, 2h ranger, or possibly a melee oracle. I'm not big into min/max, but I don't want to be useless in combat. I understand that no matter what I pick, I won't be able to compare to the min/max human archer fighter. I was wondering how good in combat the inquisitors or oracles would be in melee?
I was also thinking about a melee druid, but I don't want to be somewhat useless for 3 levels (or 5 levels if I use an archtype) until I get Wild Shape. Also are melee druids any good when NOT in Wild Shape? I was looking at either a Desert Druid, Mountain Druid, or a Saurian Shaman Druid.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
You want a summoner.
The eidolon has the same stats in a 10 point buy game as it does in a 50 point buy game...
Half Elf Summoner, Str 8, Dex 12, Con 16 (14+2), Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14.
For your Eidolon, use the Biped Base form. Give it weapon training and Imp. Natural armor, and hand him a Longspear.
He'll have +4 to hit, and do 1d8+4 (x3) with 10ft reach. And have claws at +4 1d4+3 to fall back on if anything gets too close. I'd give him Power Attack for the first feat too, then it'd be +3 to hit and 1d8+7 damage. Not bad at level 1.
AC 15, 6 Hp. Pick your skills to taste.
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By Level 5, you'll have gained an extra evolution by using your Half-elf summoner FCB, and another 2 from feats, so you could make something remarkable like:
Eidolon - Biped (11 evolution pool)
Weapon Training x2 (4)
Str Increase (2)
Flight (2)
Imp. Nat AC x2 (2)
Skilled (1)
Say you want him using a guisarme? He can use any martial at this point, I'll just use it for example. Give him a +1 guisarme... and;
Str 20
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11
Hp 32
AC 22
+4 Bab (4 HD)
Init +2
Power Attack, Toughness
Guisarme(+1) +10 2d4+8 19-20/x2 (+8 2d4+14 w/ power attack)
2 Claws +9/+9 1d4+5 (+7/+7 1d4+9 w/ power attack)
30ft speed, 30ft fly
(This isn't an optimized Eidolon either, just one to roughly fill the 'fighter' role, lol)
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That's not even accounting for what you, the actual summoner can do. You can cast 2nd level spells, one of which is kind of a must have for summoners, haste. But other fun options are Barkskin, Wind Wall, Twisted Space, Slow, Spider Climb… or 1st level Enlarge Person, Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Prot from…, etc.
So, not only are you filling the warrior role, but also a support one as well.
You could also design the Eidolon to be more of a skill-focused minion. They get quite a few skill points, and can freely pick 4 skills to be class skills on top of their normal list. The 1 point evolution ‘Skilled’ lets them add +8 to a skill of your choosing, so they can potentially be really good at skills. Disable device, stealth, perception, whatever.
They are truly impressive in a low point buy environment.
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You want a summoner.
...
He just got done playing a summoner and wants something different.
He just got done playing a summoner and wants something different....
You want a summoner.
...
Ah, missed that buried down in the later responses... and the weird point buy too.
Wondering: how high do you expect to go? Because the costs are VERY significant before level 8, but become negligible afterwards.We plan to play as long as we can. No set limits really. We are limited to what is legal in PFS, so no Master Summoner. My last character was a summoner and I wanted to avoid it. I want to try something new. I generally like hybrids, but that is tough with limited stats. I forgot to mention as well that I dont think it is a standard buy. To raise a stat, it is +1 and to lower it is -1. No matter how high or low you go. So 10 to 11 costs 1 and 18 to 19 costs 1 for building our characters.
Is there a max/min? Assuming 10 is still the starting point...
Can you go like
Str 26 (24+2)
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 5
Wis 10
Cha 5
?
Cuz, you'd be strong enough to disable traps with a nice headbutt if so...
I mean, with a fighter, power attack, weapon focus and a greatsword... level 1 you'd have a +10 to hit, 2d6+12 damage, or +9 and 2d6+15 w/ power attack. It'd be bit silly.
(This modified point buy heavily favors SAD classes even more than a low point buy does.)
I really appreciate all of the input so far. We cannot go below a 7 and above a 20 in a stat before racial adjustments. I understand that the hybrids would be extremely tough to pull off with the point system we are using. I hate playing classes that are single minded though. Played a human archer fighter and I wanted to bash my head against a wall because it was just so boring in combat. It was the same thing over and over. I'm thinking that possibly the THW Ranger or an Inquisitor would be my best options to be versatile, yet decent enough in combat. The main thing drawing me toward a ranger is having an animal companion and the main thing drawing me toward an inquisitor would be the spells/domain/inquisitions.
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I would say go ranger. they have more flavor imo (at least to me :P) as the inquisitor feels so... one dimensional. (albeit, a bad ass dimension. lol)
if you do go ranger I can help you with your build. (also rangers get spells) but they would be rather MAD. your ability priority for a switch hitter is str>dex>wis>con dump cha and possibly int.
take the ranged combat feats. grab power attack, quick draw, possibly cleave, toughness/dodge with your other feats. you won't "shine" in one, but you do very well in both. also, with this you DO NOT NEED Precise shot, as once things get into melee you are in the thick of it. You can start out focusing on one area slightly more than the other if you wish, but by lvl 13 you should be fairly amazing at both.
We are starting a new campaign starting at level 1. We are using a very basic 10 point buy, but the DM is allowing the purchase of attribute points for experience.
1) 10 point is far too low.
2) Your house rule adds the only mechanics in pathfinder that lowers experience. Those were removed for a reason.
We are starting a new campaign starting at level 1. We are using a very basic 10 point buy, but the DM is allowing the purchase of attribute points for experience.1) 10 point is far too low.
2) Your house rule adds the only mechanics in pathfinder that lowers experience. Those were removed for a reason.
They are using different point buy rules that make a considerable difference:
"I forgot to mention as well that I dont think it is a standard buy. To raise a stat, it is +1 and to lower it is -1. No matter how high or low you go. So 10 to 11 costs 1 and 18 to 19 costs 1 for building our character"