Hey, I'm building a campaign setting in alternate universe Roman empire. Basically imagining if Spartacus' rebellion succeeded and the slaves escaped, causing the empire to collapse, then have an industrial revolution. Eastern and Western empires go for a century without communications, now they are about to clash in a massive war that the PCs are caught between as descendants of the slave rebels. Apart from specific historical basis on Earth, the rest of the setting is pure Pathfinder.
I'm writing as fast as I can, but there aren't enough hours, and the party I'm running is catching up. Main plot revolves around an evil cleric with support from daemons attempting to unleash the Titans from Tartarus, with the war as a sort of subplot. PCs are mainly trying to save their people and eventually save the world.
Right now the key is writing the second major chapter, where the PCs chase the evil cleric into the underworld, which is accessed through a mine that was dug just a bit too deep. There they discover members of their own society (miners) who they thought long dead. The kicker is that these people have gone dark, which is discovered to be because they got too close to the shades below and were possessed and transformed.
Most of these people are now darkfolk (former humans) and Duergar (former dwarves). They transformed 20 years ago. Love the idea of many turning into shadow dancers, but apart from that the Kindgom of Hell (the community of these 200-odd trapped Sparticans) is pretty loosely defined. Long story short I could use some ideas of semi-hostile NPCs.
I'll post more as I go along, but this is sort of the immediate thing. Any ideas welcome. Go crazy!
I would actually suggest looking into not only historical events bit mythology of rome. Have the gods renamed to fit the gods of Rome ;)
On a race/ class note consider rogues, fiend beings. Fully transformed humans to fiends. Other good ideas are fighters. Good race would be teiflings. Consider an anti-paladin bbeg?
Final boss of the previous chapter happens to be a Dhampir anti-paladin actually, sidekick of the cleric who stays behind to kill every Spartican who could pursue him beneath the world. Vampires are a solid chunk of the villains in part 1.
Tieflings would make a lot of sense actually. I'm thinking of tapping into that third party template for demon possessed characters as well.
The underworld I have planned is divided into chambers, and each chamber must be solved before proceeding to the next one. The first chamber is kinda fuzzy. Mostly empty, puzzle to be solved to move to chamber 2. Maybe a couple otyughs for kicks and giggles.
Chamber 2 is the Kingdom of Hell, where the morphed and possessed miners live. They hold a vague grudge against the Sparticans who sealed them in when the dug too deep 20 years ago, but are not immediately hostile. Some stuff needs to happen here to get to chamber 3. PCs should be in danger of being possessed the same way, so it should revolve around that.
Chamber 3 is terribly haunted and partially sentient. Getting closer to the underworld itself, this place changes shape at will to separate the PCs. Combined with haunts and some undead monsters, I want this to be a terrifying series of encounters and puzzles.
Have "geas" be cast every so often they Uare within the city (not sure of any possession spells) or some other form. will save. Give them 1 additional save per day for 3 days before it becomes permanent? I really really recommend looking into reading up on the river stix and the gate to the after life.
I have split parties before. Never make them go solo unless they are a melee paladin or equivalent (compainions count against them being solo, so druid and animal friend are Sol :p )
That aside it can be very very interesting and rewarding both rp wise and other ways. But. It can be extremely dangerous and deadly to the party
Blast, almost forgot about the river Stix... that actually solves my problem for the fourth chamber. The evil cleric has a Macguffin that lets him cross over, but the PCs need to find their own version of this artifact. Makes sense if this artifact is a way of gaining passage from the ferryman. This is what leads to the rest of the campaign. They gotta head back out into the world after that point to find this artifact.
If you need an interesting semi-hostile npc organization, I'd suggest looking into the Bellonarii.
Technically they were priests of 'the Cappadocian Bellona' and not the Roman one of Sabine origin... but they gashed their arms and loins, had 'mock' battles with each other that were rather brutal, sprinkled blood on the Goddesses statue to renew a blood pact, and drank each others blood.
Looks like a nice chance to turn them into a corrupted cult of the war goddess that drinks blood and could have shadow dancers for priests.
Rome was still a "republic" at the time of Spartacus's revolt. Pompey and Crassus are just forming their political alliance and Julius has yet to invade Gaul.
If the revolt was successful the slaves would have escaped and dispersed. Rome like the machine it was would have churned out new legions and crushed any revolts harshly restocking its supply of slaves.
Blast, almost forgot about the river Stix... that actually solves my problem for the fourth chamber. The evil cleric has a Macguffin that lets him cross over, but the PCs need to find their own version of this artifact. Makes sense if this artifact is a way of gaining passage from the ferryman. This is what leads to the rest of the campaign. They gotta head back out into the world after that point to find this artifact.
Rome was still a "republic" at the time of Spartacus's revolt. Pompey and Crassus are just forming their political alliance and Julius has yet to invade Gaul.
If the revolt was successful the slaves would have escaped and dispersed. Rome like the machine it was would have churned out new legions and crushed any revolts harshly restocking its supply of slaves.
Historical accuracy is all well and great, but Rome also didn't include the existence of gnomes, magic, and vampires. I have a scene where the PCs discover that Jesus was just Mercury with a beard. I'm using creative license to create a flavorful campaign world that feels like it could have been. Ever see Gladiator?
Verteitiger, this cult sounds so cool it would be disgraceful not to use. Thanks a lot for the idea!
Rome was still a "republic" at the time of Spartacus's revolt. Pompey and Crassus are just forming their political alliance and Julius has yet to invade Gaul.
If the revolt was successful the slaves would have escaped and dispersed. Rome like the machine it was would have churned out new legions and crushed any revolts harshly restocking its supply of slaves.
Historical accuracy is all well and great, but Rome also didn't include the existence of gnomes, magic, and vampires. I have a scene where the PCs discover that Jesus was just Mercury with a beard. I'm using creative license to create a flavorful campaign world that feels like it could have been. Ever see Gladiator?
Right, but you were seeking advice, and several things you described, such as Spartacus and Roman Empire, don't go together, nor do East and West, as the Empire didn't split until what, 400 years after Spartacus died. And a "successful" revolt by Spartacus would simply have meant he, and those that followed him, got away, not that they overthrew the Republic. So, your world, I'm sure, is fun to play in, but it's not remotely close to actual history. Still, that's no reason to not force other events to happen similar to how they did for us, have fun with it!
As for Gladiator, much of that movie is actually decent history, and a decent representation of the day, even if other parts are just made up for the story.
How far "after" Spartacus' victory are you writing? At least 100 years or so, I guess, since Jesus has hit the scene. How did the Jesus story occur, if the Rome of Herod's time didn't exist, and thus Pilate wasn't there to offer Barrabbas to the crowd? Jesus' story doesn't occur in a vacuum, it requires Herod and the Roman Empire to be there, otherwise Roman census and taxation doesn't occur, no rebellions, etc.
I'll throw a question back to you, ever read Josephus' "The Jewish Wars?" An excellent overview of things from the Jewish side, but do take it as such, since it largely marginalizes the impacts of the Roman empire in the area, other than as a benefactor to be toyed with and used, but if you are playing in that part of the world, it could be invaluable. And if you are playing more on the European side, the Caesar's "Gallic War" would be a similarly fun resource to read. Interestingly enough, Harry Turtledove, the master of alternate history (and I love his stuff), actually wrote a novelized version of the story of Teutoborg Forest called "Give Me Back My Legions," which you might enjoy.
True. Didn't mean to sound snarky in response to 8th Dwarf's advice, just trying to explain that the . The question I asked was what would happen if all the slaves escaped Rome at once, given that Rome was technologically about 200 years from going to the moon (they had harnessed steam, but merely used it for toys). The addition of the Eastern Empire came from the premise that conquest would accelerate after industry began to boom as an alternative to slave labour. My exact estimations are pretty sketchy, I admit. Mostly just wanted to set up the world as efficiently as possible. I aim to borrow generously from history for the setting without adhering to it too much.
It's actually pretty much exactly 100 years, give or take a year or two, which can be a lot if you consider the 20th century. What I'm working with is the accelerated expansion that pretty much conquered as much domain as they had at their peak, so occupied Israel is a thing. Romans in that area saw him do some crazy stuff and conversions happened pretty quickly. Imagine a Jewish rebellion but with the ultimate mythic buff cleric/heirophant backing them, turning out to be an actual Roman god who decided he wanted some proper followers rather than act as a messenger for the higher ups.
Bearing in mind that in this universe the gods are a fact rather than a religion, so it comes down to who you like better at the time. If anybody has a better geopolitical explanation for how these events can unfold, I'm all ears. Long as the results work for the story.
minoritarian wrote:
The ferryman was on the river Acheron btw
Right. Charon, ferryman of the Archeron, river of Tartarus. I'm rusty. Used to be a huge mythology buff. Hard enough to give everything the Roman name and not the Greek name. Actually did custom fit the Roman gods over the standard gods/domains.
Lastly, a quick note on the campaign as it's being played. I've got three parties playing it. One's intensely political, one tends to run straight for the action, and one is in it for the lolz. As such, a bit of tongue-in-cheek is called for pretty consistently to appease a couple of the parties. Hence Jesus as Mercury. Can be played seriously, also hilariously.
I haven't read The Jewish Wars, but I can take a gander at if I can. I've heard of Give Me Back My Legions, I'll look for that one too.
Some of the 'Barbarian' tribes throughout the time period were actually quite strong. Suebi, Boii, Cimbrii, Marcomani... Have all gone to war with Rome in RL and initially did quite well. Unfortunately for them, Rome had this ability to keep raising armies and throwing soldiers at their enemies until victory was achieved.
If you need more hostiles, relying on the time tested barbarian horde is always an option.
As a matter of fact, a large orc hoarde acts as a sort of secondary/distraction antagonist when the PCs are still with their community in the mountains, notorious for their barbarian populations at the time.
Ogres or ogrekin barbarians could make an interesting addition once they expand outwards. A proper tribe of monsters to take their minds off all the damn gods and daemons :P
Roman times had many mystery cults, so called because their rites were a complete mystery to the un initiated. One of those mystery cults could have been secret worshipers of the Titans who caused the mine to delve too deep deliberately.
Prometheus, the titan who gave fire to mankind, could be still chained in one of the chambers of the underworld being tormented. If one of the parties is having trouble with the puzzles, combat, ect. they could release Prometheus for aid.
Prometheus changed sides to aid the greek/roman gods during the war between them and is a friend of humanity.
After having his liver eaten every day for possibly thousands of years, you could scale his stats down to be appropriate for the level of the party.
I've got a rough campaign outline here for those who wanna take a look. Figure if I'm looking for help, I should be specific as I can.
plot summary:
I've structured it sort of like an adventure path in the six book system, but that's just to help keep track of it at this stage.
Book 1: Signals and Sieges
This book is all but complete. The PCs start in their home town of Sofendale, nestled in a fictional valley in the Italian Alps. Their environment is defined in a player's guide that includes major personalities and structures. The biggest Chekhov's gun presented is the Barrier Tunnel, a mine that was intended as a way to escape north if the Romans came after them. 20 years ago, the miners dug into something that killed many of them, and the tunnel was sealed to prevent whatever it was from escaping.
What they dug into was in fact a gate to the Underworld, and the rush of shades and demons trying to escape caused their deaths. The evil beings at the bottom layer of Tartarus sensed the breach, as well as a daemonic cult that dwelled in the mountains. The leader of the Spartican neighbour town, a cleric named Cassius, was approached by the cult, and quickly saw an opportunity to gain true divinity from the Titans by freeing them from their prison with the aid of his daemonic allies, who are more than happy to trigger a war between the gods that would turn Earth to ash.
Cassius' closest companion, a dhampir anti-paladin, happens to have gained dominion over a small tribe of vampires after slaying their leader in vengeance for killing her paladin father. Having since fallen from grace, she helps Cassius by using the vampires to stir a war between Sofendale and the orc barbarian tribe to the south, wiping out their rangers and creating the appearance that each is moving to attack the other.
The PCs are in the middle of unraveling this plot, of course. Piece by piece, they discover the source of this, but by then Cassius launches a full attack on Sofendale with his own townspeople. The outcome of the attack is irrelevant, as long as it buys him time to blast the tunnel open and rush inside during the chaos. What's more significant is that in the aftermath of the devastating battle, a warning beacon lights up purple: the Romans have come for them.
Book 2: Beneath the World
This book is in early stages of writing. Main action involves the pursuit of Cassius through the descending chambers of the vast mine, which in a hundred years of construction is a vast and labyrinthine complex. The chambers I've outlined roughly, but no specifics apart from a couple NPCs and ideas for useful monsters and haunts.
Cassius' daemon allies have not failed him. In the third chamber he meets with an escort of Urdefhan soldiers to protect him during his descent to Tartarus. He also bears a crucial component that the PCs will lack at this point, a sacred artifact that buries into his flesh and marks him as a mortal guardian of Tartarus. Two such artifacts exist, crafted in the aftermath of the war between Titan and Olympian gods by the Cyclops. Only one with this artifact can cross the Archeron river.
Books 3-6
The other four books are loosely outlined. They go out in search of the artifact, learn of the war between eastern and western Rome, dodge both sides in search of the artifact, find the artifact had been destroyed or lost, build a sort of Foundation in the settlement of their people for after the apocalypse, learn that the Cyclops that crafted the artifact is still alive, track him down and make him craft a new one, get intercepted by one of the warring empires on the way back, become involved in the conflict somehow, get back to the mountain, cross to Tartarus, and stop Cassius. A certain amount is unleashed by the end and maybe a couple weaker titans have to be defeated, and within a limited time they have to re-shut the gates of Tartarus.
Lot of stuff. I have levels 1-20 in mind and probably some mythic. Long campaign.
Ooh, Prometheus. Now we're talking. I was looking for some sort of divine guide/figure. Was thinking maybe an angel (judaism/christianity counts), who gets them out of the mountain and onto their next quest. Prometheus could fit that role nicely, and he slots perfectly into the setting. Scaled down stats are good. I'll browse around for a suitable NPC/monster/template for him.
It's ok I didn't take it as snark - I would shift it forward to the crisis of the 3rd century.... Or maybe to the rise of Constantine...maybe slave holding "Pagan" west vs slave freeing Christian East.
I don't think the loss of slaves would have been any thing more than a mild economic inconvenience. What it would have accelerated is Rome's conquests as they gathered more slaves to replace the ones they lost.
Rome would happily depopulate entire regions. Molossia in Epirus is a prime example 150,000 people being taken as slaves.
And as for technology, the Romans had Automatia, simple steam engines, railway tracks, concrete, and so on.
There is the "story" that when Heron the inventor of the steam engine explained the possibilities of its use the emperor said we can't use it as thousands of slaves would be out of work... It most probably a made up 19th Century story.
I would be very careful about assigning fantasy races to real world cultures/"races" ie German orcs/Celtic elves - it's both racist and clichéd.
Looking at the outline, I would caution against the thinking that there is only one true way to overcome a challenge. Specifically, the crossing of the Archeron river. I would suggest statting out the 4-5 different ways to cross that come to mind, and staying open to the possibilities that yet another way may be what occurs to the party. Sticking to only one method of moving forward can easily cause frustration for both the DM and the players which is why it is recommended not to do so.
I just sort of mixed the races in. Reason I had the main characters be former slaves in a rag-tag community helped explain why so many races were spoken for in one place.
Reason loss of slaves would be a disaster is because at that point they comprised most of the workforce. Farmers were suffocating under the weight of wealthy landowners who had slaves doing all the labour. No slaves would mean that until they could hastily acquire more, most production of basic necessities such as building materials and food would grind to a halt. It takes time to re-build that kind of infrastructure, though it would help explain why they promptly invade everybody they can reach while letting the Sparticans go. Hannibal proved the dangers of crossing the alps at the time well enough.
Hadn't heard that story of Heron the inventor, though I heard a similar one about a glass-maker in Alexandria who brought a form of glass that was almost unbreakable to the governor. After determining that nobody else knew of this invention, the governor immediately had the glass-maker killed, though this is probably also a myth.
I could plausibly set the action a couple hundred years later instead of one century. Empire could basically get to where it was, Republic could break down, technological advancements made (I'm thinking a steampunk/clockwork army right now. I really really want one).
pendothrax wrote:
Looking at the outline, I would caution against the thinking that there is only one true way to overcome a challenge. Specifically, the crossing of the Archeron river. I would suggest statting out the 4-5 different ways to cross that come to mind, and staying open to the possibilities that yet another way may be what occurs to the party. Sticking to only one method of moving forward can easily cause frustration for both the DM and the players which is why it is recommended not to do so.
4-5 different ways to cross the river means that many long term adventure possibilities that I have to write on the fly. I give a lot of leg room when it comes to choices, and the three different parties have gone in very different directions. This is just kind of one of those fixed things. They need a specific artifact, but can go about looking for it any way they want. If there's an easier way across, then they might get there too soon. It's railroading, but it's incredibly selective railroading.
If you've got 4-5 ideas of these ways across that can still follow a similar enough path, I might be able to work with that. I'm just not sure I'd have time to write it all.
I did have one alternative in mind, though I have a feeling it would be rejected. Later, the angel who helped them starts to lose hope. Time is running out and his/her own plan failed. Then it occurs to him/her that if the PCs die, their souls get to cross over for free. So this angel tries to kill them. At that point it's gone dark and has become an mythic Erinyes (Fury).
Maybe there could be something that Charon wants from them in exchange for a lift? I'd be semi-open to something in a different part of the world than this artifact, so at least there are two possible destinations.
Although an Orc/Ogre/Ogrekin barbarian horde is awesome, in that it is classic fantasy, I was thinking more along the lines of a more 'natural' themed advanced society.
The various Celtic and Germanic tribes had rather advanced societies, they made jewelry, could distill salt, created metal weapons, and so on. You wanted the PCs to get involved in the conflict with the two Empires. Introducing a powerful tribal confederation lead by Druids and Warlords (certain cavalier builds, or divine strategists to Celtic gods like Nodens or Epona) would be an interesting 3rd option for the PCs.
The Confederation could try to shelter the PCs, or one of the Empires could try to seek an alliance to tip the scales. During the time that Rome was divided into 4 kingdoms, the western ones used to heavily employ soldiers and mercenaries from the surrounding tribes.
Plus, you'll get to introduce some of the gods that the Romans wrote were as dark and brooding as the forests they call home.
Hmm, Celts and Germanians led by druids and warlords. That might do nicely for the sort of empty space I've got in Gaul/Germania/Britain. Not yet conquered, but with the empires on their doorstep. Leaders that are divided on whether or not to fight or submit, complete with profiteers and mercenaries who will sell out the PCs and their own people to the highest bidder. I'll see what I can do with this one, I certainly like it.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
This is a campaign screaming to have Casca Rufio Longinus as an NPC!
I had literally never heard of this character or the Casca series until I looked him up. It's a pretty badass NPC concept, though not sure how to implement him. Any ideas?
This is a campaign screaming to have Casca Rufio Longinus as an NPC!
I had literally never heard of this character or the Casca series until I looked him up. It's a pretty badass NPC concept, though not sure how to implement him. Any ideas?
For some perspective, the author, is the same guy that wrote and sung the song "Ballad of the Green Berets" and many others, SSgt Barry Sadler, hero and troubadour from the Vietnam war.
The character, Casca, was just a Roman soldier doing his job, wrong place at the wrong time.
His curse is to always be a soldier. Contrary to popular belief, he can die, horrible deaths, he just arises again after awhile. Probably fast healing, or regeneration, with maybe a 12 hour regrowth period if he goes below negative CON. He's all Fighter, and definitely a gladius and shield expert. He speaks several languages. He can be a terrible foe, or an amazing ally. He'll use his rebirth ability intentionally if needed, either to escape, infiltrate, etc. He has some great scars. Not particularly wise,or charismatic. Short and stocky. Lots of pictures of him to be found.
There is an organization bent on tracking and exploiting him(The Brotherhood of the Lamb), could be a good evil NPC organization, that hires the PCs to obtain the Spear of Destiny (Spear of Longinus), and other Artifacts associated with Casca (his armor, gladius, scutum, pieces of the true cross, etc?). They fall afoul of Casca in the process, only to realize they killed him, and the organization is bad. They set out to make amends, and he comes for them, they'll need to explain, and make amends. That sort of thing?
You could give up heavy armor, despite Roman legions being heavy infantry, heavy armor as the game uses it, didn't really exist, so Casca could give it up as an archetype.
The problem with implementing Casca effectively is that he's intimately associated with Jesus Christ—the Jesus Christ that is in fact the omnipotent being claimed by Orthodox Christianity. Having Christ be Mercury with a beard [arches brow again] causes Casca's legend to lose a great deal of its poignancy and potency.
It's ok I didn't take it as snark - I would shift it forward to the crisis of the 3rd century.... Or maybe to the rise of Constantine...maybe slave holding "Pagan" west vs slave freeing Christian East.
I don't think the loss of slaves would have been any thing more than a mild economic inconvenience. What it would have accelerated is Rome's conquests as they gathered more slaves to replace the ones they lost.
Rome would happily depopulate entire regions. Molossia in Epirus is a prime example 150,000 people being taken as slaves.
And as for technology, the Romans had Automatia, simple steam engines, railway tracks, concrete, and so on.
There is the "story" that when Heron the inventor of the steam engine explained the possibilities of its use the emperor said we can't use it as thousands of slaves would be out of work... It most probably a made up 19th Century story.
I would be very careful about assigning fantasy races to real world cultures/"races" ie German orcs/Celtic elves - it's both racist and clichéd.
Nope, German orcs, Celtic gnomes, Egyptian ratfolk or Iberian Tengu isn't racist. Please don't just call the things "racist" that you don't like or consider cliché. If he wants to flavour a region with a specific culture and then turn them into a monster race, that is entirely fine. Players may love it, he may have fun running it, and it gets the monster races represented in, and attached to, the world.
Although an Orc/Ogre/Ogrekin barbarian horde is awesome, in that it is classic fantasy, I was thinking more along the lines of a more 'natural' themed advanced society.
The various Celtic and Germanic tribes had rather advanced societies, they made jewelry, could distill salt, created metal weapons, and so on. You wanted the PCs to get involved in the conflict with the two Empires. Introducing a powerful tribal confederation lead by Druids and Warlords (certain cavalier builds, or divine strategists to Celtic gods like Nodens or Epona) would be an interesting 3rd option for the PCs.
The Confederation could try to shelter the PCs, or one of the Empires could try to seek an alliance to tip the scales. During the time that Rome was divided into 4 kingdoms, the western ones used to heavily employ soldiers and mercenaries from the surrounding tribes.
Plus, you'll get to introduce some of the gods that the Romans wrote were as dark and brooding as the forests they call home.
Sounds pretty good actually. Maybe they could meet Arminius and Flavus?
The problem with implementing Casca effectively is that he's intimately associated with Jesus Christ—the Jesus Christ that is in fact the omnipotent being claimed by Orthodox Christianity. Having Christ be Mercury with a beard [arches brow again] causes Casca's legend to lose a great deal of its poignancy and potency.
Maybe the Spear of Destiny is particularly effective against the gods, and thus desirable?
Did Jesus/Mercury die? Maybe folks don't know it was Mercury?
Nice thread. Love rome. Here's some stream of consciouness tidbits that may feed the creative process:
romans worshiped ancestors. that might be fun to toy with. Dont forget about elysium - a roman version of heaven where the the crops always come in. romans had the concept of day armor (light, wear around camp armor) and battle armor. bascially, they were logistics/gear/supply chain crazy. in the bible, the centurion Cassius was cursed to live eternally for spearing jesus on the cross... some creative souls credit him as the first vampire from those verses (and other credit Cain, who had a similar curse). the value gap between cisterci, denari and talents was crazy - romans had no notion of a middle class. soldiers were sometimes paid in salt instead of coin. rome had "purgetoriums"; a place to go to vomit after eating too much so you could go eat some more! hedonisms baby! roman shoes were soled with a hundred nails so they would last for many miles of marching. it gave the legionary march a particular sound. bathed in olive oil, rarely in water (which was thought to cause illness). adoption was a very common way to pay someone a compliment (by bestowing your surname on them). few romans were actually roman, but conquered people who went native. putting images of a thing (like a lion) on another thing (like a shield) was thought to impart the quality of the image to the item. and finally, rules, rules, rules, hierarchy, honor, heroism, fatalism, symbolism, slavery and togas! come home with this shield... or upon it.
The problem with implementing Casca effectively is that he's intimately associated with Jesus Christ—the Jesus Christ that is in fact the omnipotent being claimed by Orthodox Christianity. Having Christ be Mercury with a beard [arches brow again] causes Casca's legend to lose a great deal of its poignancy and potency.
I've thought about this more, who better than the God that carries Caduceus, and is thus associated with Medicine to grant/curse Casca with long life and healing?
I've also thought more about Casca as a fighter. Definitely the Gladiator archetype. First of all, he was at least twice a gladiator, and it gives up only heavy armor, which I stated earlier didn't exist, and gains access to performance feats.
I personally would give Casca Weapon Focus and Specialization with the gladius, and weapon training with blades. He's good with a lot of weapons over the ages, but by the period you are playing, he was a blades guy. With a breastplate, and armor training I, he has full mobility.
As a legionaire, teamwork feats seem a good choice, but for the most part in the books, he doesn't fight in ranks.
The problem with implementing Casca effectively is that he's intimately associated with Jesus Christ—the Jesus Christ that is in fact the omnipotent being claimed by Orthodox Christianity. Having Christ be Mercury with a beard [arches brow again] causes Casca's legend to lose a great deal of its poignancy and potency.
I've thought about this more, who better than the God that carries Caduceus, and is thus associated with Medicine to grant/curse Casca with long life and healing?
You mean besides the God who actually did it in the original literature?
Frankly, I don't see Hermes cursing anyone except at another's behest. It seems outside the scope of his personality in mythology.
On the other hand, he's notorious for his sense of humor. Perhaps it's just an extended prank.
Again, while it doesn't work nearly as well as the original, that at least is playable.
The problem with implementing Casca effectively is that he's intimately associated with Jesus Christ—the Jesus Christ that is in fact the omnipotent being claimed by Orthodox Christianity. Having Christ be Mercury with a beard [arches brow again] causes Casca's legend to lose a great deal of its poignancy and potency.
I've thought about this more, who better than the God that carries Caduceus, and is thus associated with Medicine to grant/curse Casca with long life and healing?
You mean besides the God who actually did it in the original literature?
I love how you put that. Hey! I didn't say Jesus was Mercury in disguise, I'm just rolling with it. There are multiple examples of Casca-like characters from the Judeo-Christian lineage, my favorite of which is the Wandering Jew, but Cartophilus is a good one too, so yes, the "original literature" is a good story for it. My first posts in this thread expressed skepticism regarding the history the OP was using, but once we got past that, I figured I'd try and help out some.
Haha, didn't mean for my little twist on mythology to turn into a theological debate! Bear in mind that two of the three parties I'm running this for tend to approach the game pretty humorously, and half the guys play stoned.
jaelithe wrote:
Well, isn't Hermes famed for stealing Apollo's cattle? I suppose it isn't too far to The Good Shepherd from there.
Christianity is, according to skeptics, an amalgamated hodgepodge of Jewish and Greek thought, after all. Hermes is a passable fit.
[I have little doubt the above statements just earned this fairly devout Catholic about twenty more minutes in Purgatory.
That's such a good and plausible concept/justification that I have no choice but to use it. Also, I sincerely appreciate those extra minutes in Purgatory you'll be spending just to help me write a decent campaign :p
As for Casca, a lot of what you guys have written so far is really good. I have to head out in a minute, but soon I'll come back with a sample stat block for a level 10 gladiator. Maybe a couple levels of cavalier for those teamwork feats? After all, he's a centurion, leader of men. Fits the flavour and makes him a good boost if he gets allies.
zahir ibn mahmoud ibn jothan wrote:
The problem with implementing Casca effectively is that he's intimately associated with Jesus Christ—the Jesus Christ that is in fact the omnipotent being claimed by Orthodox Christianity. Having Christ be Mercury with a beard [arches brow again] causes Casca's legend to lose a great deal of its poignancy and potency.
Maybe the Spear of Destiny is particularly effective against the gods, and thus desirable?
Did Jesus/Mercury die? Maybe folks don't know it was Mercury?
Nice thinking on the spear. After all, what better Chekhov's gun/Macguffin in a Titan based campaign than a god-bane spear?
What I'm thinking now is that Mercury took human form with some God-related powers, so his human body was killed. The blood blessed the spear and made Casca immortal (which he decided not to revoke, being miffed for being stabbed while nailed to a cross). Mercury busted out three days later as a god again, and being the fun-loving trickster he is, decided to forgive the people who were bowing down to him rather than go all divine wrath. Now he's got a bunch of worshipers as this "Jesus" figure and decided to leave them to their own devices.
Mercury busted out three days later as a god again, and being the fun-loving trickster he is, decided to forgive the people who were bowing down to him rather than go all divine wrath. Now he's got a bunch of worshipers as this "Jesus" figure and decided to leave them to their own devices.
As a matter of practicality, I'll ask a few more questions:
Are you saying that Christian clerics receive no spells, since their divine patron isn't who they think He is? What about Jews? Are you saying that their God is non-existent? Would He have simply stood back and allowed this frankly (in His eyes) offensive blasphemy and trivialization of His personal message to go forward unchallenged?
Christian clerics could receive spells by virture of their faith/belief. Diety-less clerics are mentioned in the core books.
The Jewish God would probably be offended. Not trying to offened, but Joseph Campbell once compared old testament gods to computers, full of rules and no mercy.
Well Mercury became Jesus in order to get a personal following. Christian clerics are still praying to him, they just don't realize it, and they get their spells from him.
Also, the Jewish God would definitely still exist, being at comparative power to Mercury or any other god in this world. The Jewish religion carried on long after Christianity came around, and it does so similarly here. The old testament god is a vengeful fellow, but His options would come down to vengeance against unsuspecting followers of a false prophet who is actually a real god, or against Mercury himself, which would put Him at odds with the other Olympians.
Returning to this Casca NPC, would he be too OP if he was a tier 10 champion or guardian for the immortality benefits? Technically his character level would still be around 9 or 10, which would even out his CR to 14. Since I figure that's around where I expect the PCs to be when they encounter him, it shouldn't be a problem.
In a truly pagan world, why can't everyone's gods exist and grant spells?
I do support this. However, with this particular setting, the GM had Mercury basically inspire Christianity. Although a different religion, it is more worshippers for the 'Jewish' god... Maybe he wouldn't be so angry at Mercury.
Returning to this Casca NPC, would he be too OP if he was a tier 10 champion or guardian for the immortality benefits? Technically his character level would still be around 9 or 10, which would even out his CR to 14. Since I figure that's around where I expect the PCs to be when they encounter him, it shouldn't be a problem.
Is this a Mythic question? I figure it is, since I don't understand it. Thus I'm not the right guy to answer it.
Not trying to offend, but Joseph Campbell once compared old testament gods to computers, full of rules and no mercy.
I try not to be offended by ignorance, whether Campbell's or someone else's. The idea that there's no mercy in the Hebrew Scriptures is one of Campbell's all-time idiocies ... and he had more than a few.
Not trying to offend, but Joseph Campbell once compared old testament gods to computers, full of rules and no mercy.
I try not to be offended by ignorance, whether Campbell's or someone else's. The idea that there's no mercy in the Hebrew Scriptures is one of Campbell's all-time idiocies ... and he had more than a few.
I tend to take that quote as hyperbole, there's plenty of moments of mercy in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, those scriptures also show some truly brutal moments, which is what I was alluding to.
If Christianity in this campaign ends up going the 'Holy Trinity Route' in the future, both Gods would potentially be gaining followers. If they aren't adverse to sharing, it could be a win-win situation for both.
I try not to be offended by ignorance, whether Campbell's or someone else's. The idea that there's no mercy in the Hebrew Scriptures is one of Campbell's all-time idiocies ... and he had more than a few.
Alright, let's not get into actual theological debate here. If it ain't Pathfinder related, it ain't for the Pathfinder forum.
