I know a lot of this may be ambiguous, but I've been looking at a primarily air-elemental-wild-shaping storm druid with a level of monk and was wondering about a few things:
1.Can an air elemental simply use 'unarmed strike' instead of slams, or do I need to use Feral Combat Training to turn slams into punches?
2.If I use a half-elf and take flying blade proficiency for some reachy AoO laughs, can I use a flying blade as an air elemental so long as it isn't absorbed when I wild shape?
3.Is there any problem with using domain strike to use the storm-burst power (weather domain) on things you punch/slam as an air elemental?
1. Unarmed Strikes are for creatures that do not have listed natural attacks... so unfortunately, no. Even feral combat training won't turn your slams into unarmed strikes, but they will at least let you use anything related to an unarmed strike with your selected natural attack.
2. Questionable. This is up to the GM, but elementals do not have any proficiencies in their stat block... as a general rule of thumb... if it can wield weapons then it has simple weapon proficiency. In the elemental type entry in the beastiary you will find these two points:
- Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Air elementals are not listed as having any simple weapon proficiencies or armor.... so the best interpretation is that they simply aren't "humanoid enough" to wield weapons, but a GM could see it either way.
3. This will only work if you take Feral Combat training, since it normally requires an unarmed strike, but otherwise it should be fine. Domain Strike only stipulates that the power must be one that can affect a single target... it doesn't matter that it is normally a ranged power.
Hmm, thanks, that's about what I figured. I only thought of a flying blade anyhow due to half-elf being the only way to take elven racial bonuses and still take +2 strength - and the flavor works great with an air elemental. Pity I have to take feral combat, but slams-as-punches is the core of what I want to do with dragon-style-stormburst-rimefrosted-fist-fu; (Que the sound of thunder...)
Oh, not specifically a wildshape question anymore I guess, but what happens when a big elemental with a reach AoO zaps a charging foe with an entangle or stagger effect like a saved up charge of Frost Touch or a charge of Rime-Frostbite? Technically the enemy is entangled or staggered and isn't allowed to make a move as well as an attack anymore, nor to charge...
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Also, don't forget that Brawling Armor can work when you have FCT, its a nice bonus. Belt of thunderous charging can also be a decent choice and also fits that flavor pretty darn well.
If you dip into Monk, you can do some hilarious things with monastic legacy, flurry of blows, Monks Robes and shaping focus. If wildshape fighting is your jam, you can do very well with just a few druid levels (though elemental shaping takes quite a few more).
Take a three level dip into Master of Many Styles monk, and you can grab dragon style and dragon ferocity plus IUS which you need for FCT.
There has finally been a FAQ addressing FCT and a monk's improved unarmed strike damage progression... so lets say you get up to level 13... you can grab monastic legacy so that you count as a level 8 monk, and with monks robes you are up to level 12.
So, I present to you....
Half elf, half orc, whatever... just something with a str bonus. Level 12 (20 pt)
Druid 4, Monk (Master of many styles) 3, Barbarian 5
(seems weird, but follow me here. Take Monk first.)
Str: 22 (+2 race, +2 levels, +2 belt)
Dex: 14 (+2 belt)
Con: 16 (+2 belt)
Int: 10
Wis: 19 (+1 levels, +4 headband)
Cha: 8
Feats:
Monk:
1: Dragon Style, Imp. Unarmed Strike
2: Dragon Ferocity
3: Weapon Focus (Tentacle)
Druid
5: Feral Combat Training
7: Shaping Focus
Barbarian:
9: Monastic Legacy
11: Power Attack
Gear:
+1 impact amulet of mighty fists
+2 ring of protection
+1 Brawling leather armor
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+4 headband of wisdom
+3 bracers of armor
Monk's Robes
everything else is butter.
Features:
Fast Movement +20 (barb and monk stack)
Rage
Rage Powers: Superstition +3, Reckless Abandon +2 to hit, -2 AC
Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +1
Improved Uncanny Dodge
AC Bonus +3/+4 wisdom
Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Evasion
Maneuver Training
Still Mind
Spontaneous Casting
Nature Bond
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature's Lure
Wild Shape, as level 8 druid, 3/day
So here is the schtick... your form of choice is a Giant Octopus... it still has a 20ft. land speed, so you can move around just fine.
With monastic legacy you count as a level 7 monk for unarmed strike damage, and with monks robes, you count as +5 more for total of level 12. So your unarmed strike damage is 2d6. When you shape, you are large, so it becomes 3d6. With your impact amulet, it becomes 4d6.
You are also getting +3 ac from monk levels and +4 from wisdom, so that is bonus. The extra weirdness here is that brawling armor property still functions while you are shaped, but you are technically not wearing armor because it merges, so you get the best of both worlds.
So, the idea is this... the Octopus gets 8 tentacle attacks, but their damage is generally pretty low...since you are able to sub in monk damage, you can make it fairly high, and these are all at full bab.
DEFENSES:
HP: 104 (7d8+5d12+36 con, +5 FCB(barb))
Rage HP: 128
AC: 22 (10, +3 monk levels, +4 wisdom, +3 bracers, +4 natural armor, +1 dex, -1 size, -2 reckless, -2 rage, +2 ring)
Rage/Shape Saves: Fort: +20 Ref: +12 Will: +18
OFFENSES
So wild shape bonuses: +4 str, -2 dex, +4 nat armor
Rage bonuses: +4 str, +4 con, -2 AC
Attack bonus is then: +21 (+9 BAB, +10 str, +1 amulet, +1 focus, +2 armor, +2 reckless abandon, -3 power attack, -1 size)
Damage for each tentacle is: 4d6+19 (+10 str, +2 armor, +1 amulet, +6 power attack)
Your bite is still only +19 since it doesn't benefit from FCT, and hits for 2d6+15
Your full attack looks like this:
Tentacles: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20, 4d6+19
Bite: +18, 2d6+15
If everything hits, you can slap a target for a total of 34d6+167, or 286 damage on average. You can shape for 24 hours a day total, you can rage for 15 rounds, which should get you through a lot. Take extra rage at 13th and you will be up to 23 per day which should be more than enough.
And you are doing all of this at 20ft reach with your tentacles...
Oh, not specifically a wildshape question anymore I guess, but what happens when a big elemental with a reach AoO zaps a charging foe with an entangle or stagger effect like a saved up charge of Frost Touch or a charge of Rime-Frostbite? Technically the enemy is entangled or staggered and isn't allowed to make a move as well as an attack anymore, nor to charge...
If they cannot finish their action.. it is interrupted...
So if you entangle them when they are trying to charge, their charge fails... if you stagger them, its a bit more complicated... because you can charge while staggered... just not as far... so if the stagger would mean that a standard action charge would not have reached you (ie, if they needed more than their move speed to reach you) the action fails and their turn ends.
I know a lot of this may be ambiguous, but I've been looking at a primarily air-elemental-wild-shaping storm druid with a level of monk and was wondering about a few things:
1.Can an air elemental simply use 'unarmed strike' instead of slams, or do I need to use Feral Combat Training to turn slams into punches?
Unarmed strikes can be almost anything, so I don't see why not.
2.If I use a half-elf and take flying blade proficiency for some reachy AoO laughs, can I use a flying blade as an air elemental so long as it isn't absorbed when I wild shape?
DM's call, and this one is really fuzzy. We don't know exactly what an air elemental looks like, how solid it is, what it does for fingers etc. I would say no, the shape is too alien to use a humanoid weapon.
3.Is there any problem with using domain strike to use the storm-burst power (weather domain) on things you punch/slam as an air elemental?
I don't see any.
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Also, don't forget that Brawling Armor can work when you have FCT, its a nice bonus. Belt of thunderous charging can also be a decent choice and also fits that flavor pretty darn well.
If you dip into Monk, you can do some hilarious things with monastic legacy, flurry of blows, Monks Robes and shaping focus. If wildshape fighting is your jam, you can do very well with just a few druid levels (though elemental shaping takes quite a few more).
Take a three level dip into Master of Many Styles monk, and you can grab dragon style and dragon ferocity plus IUS which you need for FCT.
There has finally been a FAQ addressing FCT and a monk's improved unarmed strike damage progression... so lets say you get up to level 13... you can grab monastic legacy so that you count as a level 8 monk, and with monks robes you are up to level 12.
So, I present to you....
Half elf, half orc, whatever... just something with a str bonus. Level 12 (20 pt)
Druid 4, Monk (Master of many styles) 3, Barbarian 5
(seems weird, but follow me here. Take Monk first.)Str: 22 (+2 race, +2 levels, +2 belt)
Dex: 14 (+2 belt)
Con: 16 (+2 belt)
Int: 10
Wis: 19 (+1 levels, +4 headband)
Cha: 8Feats:
Monk:
1: Dragon Style, Imp. Unarmed Strike
2: Dragon Ferocity
3: Weapon Focus (Tentacle)
Druid
5: Feral Combat Training
7: Shaping Focus
Barbarian:
9: Monastic Legacy
11: Power AttackGear:
+1 impact amulet of mighty fists
+2 ring of protection
+1 Brawling leather armor
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+4 headband of wisdom
+3 bracers of armor
Monk's Robes
everything else is butter.Features:
Fast Movement +20 (barb and monk stack)
Rage
Rage Powers: Superstition +3, Reckless Abandon +2 to hit, -2 AC
Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +1
Improved Uncanny Dodge
AC Bonus +3/+4 wisdom
Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Evasion
Maneuver Training
Still Mind
Spontaneous Casting
Nature Bond
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride...
Sir, I feel you may have reached a level of madness that was, as of yet, unknown
Col.Kurtz: "What about you? Do you think my methods are unsound?"
Cpt.Willard: "I don't... see any method here at all... sir."
Geez, and all I wanted was to thunderclap-slap someone with a frosty fist. Now that just feels unambitious.
May I also humbly suggest MONCTHULU?
Atarlost is correct, assuming that 2 was meant as "as a half-elf polymorphed into elemental form".
Lord_Malkov still gets points for the awesomeness that is Monktopus.
1) Anyone can make an unarmed strike. Most wouldn't want to and you're probably better off with the slams unless you're more monk than druid, but you can.
The thing is, feral combat training my slams takes two feats, while a single, golden level of monk with a monk's robe makes my unarmed equal to elemental slams - or maybe even better - when the unarmed is re-sized for the large or huge creature I just became.
2) You only gain natural weapon proficiencies from polymorph effects. This is not 3.5 where you become the creature. Only those changes explicitly stated to take place do and there is no mention of losing proficiencies.
I think the issue is whether an air elemental literally has the means of swinging the weapon around - something close enough to hands to do it. Damned if I know.
3) You can explicitly make use touch spells through natural attacks.
The joy of Domain Strike is that if my air elemental charges in and smashes something with its fist or slam or whatever, it fires off storm burst as a swift action - no need to 'prep' the burst, which is especially useful if the plan is already to prep frostbite. Dragon Slam + Frostbite(Rime?) + Stormburst goes boom!
Addendum: oh god, coup-de-grace with a shocking flying blade? Class.
lol... yeah druids are fun...
I haven't really seen this one kicking around, so I figured I would toss it out into the light of day.
It all synergizes pretty well, its all RAW, and its all 100% core, which is disturbing in and of itself. I have come up with a few of these builds since FCT came out.. but I didn't want to post them until I saw the feral combat training FAQ.
You can also dip 4 levels of druid and take shaping focus in order to flurry with something like an 8d8 hippo bite.
1. Unarmed Strikes are for creatures that do not have listed natural attacks... so unfortunately, no. Even feral combat training won't turn your slams into unarmed strikes, but they will at least let you use anything related to an unarmed strike with your selected natural attack.
2. Questionable. This is up to the GM, but elementals do not have any proficiencies in their stat block... as a general rule of thumb... if it can wield weapons then it has simple weapon proficiency. In the elemental type entry in the beastiary you will find these two points:
- Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.Air elementals are not listed as having any simple weapon proficiencies or armor.... so the best interpretation is that they simply aren't "humanoid enough" to wield weapons, but a GM could see it either way.
3. This will only work if you take Feral Combat training, since it normally requires an unarmed strike, but otherwise it should be fine. Domain Strike only stipulates that the power must be one that can affect a single target... it doesn't matter that it is normally a ranged power.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
1) Anyone can make an unarmed strike. Most wouldn't want to and you're probably better off with the slams unless you're more monk than druid, but you can.
2) You only gain natural weapon proficiencies from polymorph effects. This is not 3.5 where you become the creature. Only those changes explicitly stated to take place do and there is no mention of losing proficiencies.
3) You can explicitly make use touch spells through natural attacks. See the...
1. Okay, fair enough.
2. I wasn't talking about proficiencies per se... he was asking if he could wield weapons as an air elemental... so I quoted the elemental section... generally, creatures that only list natural attacks don't have the proper anatomy to wield weapons..... the elemental section basically says that they can if they are humanoid-ish enough...
3. He was talking about "domain strike" the feat, not delivering a touch spell. And that feat requires the use of an unarmed strike, so he would need FCT to deliver a domain strike with an elemental's slam.
lol... yeah druids are fun...
It seems like wildshaping monks opens up some absurdly fun possibilities in particular. Huge size + monk unarmed strike (+ feral combat training?) + monastic legacy + strong jaw + monk's robe? The damage dice tables have not been created equal to the task...
lol... yeah druids are fun...It seems like wildshaping monks opens up some absurdly fun possibilities in particular. Huge size + monk unarmed strike (+ feral combat training?) + monastic legacy + strong jaw + monk's robe? The damage dice tables have not been created equal to the task...
Yep... its fun stuff. FCT is a bit limited, because it only works for one attack type... but you can then flurry with that attack type, which is nice. Unlike unarmed strikes, you can get improved natural attack for a natural attack, then with an impact amulet or strong jaw you can hit pretty hard.
To revise my earlier Monktopus... I just realized that there is actually a Huge Lake Octopus with similar stats, except it is huge. Which means that my Monktopus would be hitting for 6d6+20 !!! EIGHT TIMES!!! Plus a better 3d6+16 bite!
So the damage potential just rocketed up to 51d6+176!!!
That is 354.5 average damage if they all hit, with a maximum of 482
Holy suction cups, that is ridiculous.
Not to labor the point but...
Addendum; Additional: coup-de-grace by a huge air elemental, hovering up in the air, with a huge shocking flying blade (~48lbs?).
...its no monktopus, but its classy (I tell myself).
If I remember correctly from recent errata, you can directly apply your monk unarmed strike damage rating over your usual natural attack damage with FCT, which means that you could be dealing with monk unarmed dice scaled up to huge, then scaled by level and a robe, then scaled with strong jaw - really, scaled with anything that would improve a natural weapon, a manufactured weapon or an unarmed strike. Might that overtake improved natural tentacle (large)?
*edit - oops, it is huge. Still though...
Not to labor the point but...
Addendum; Additional: coup-de-grace by a huge air elemental, hovering up in the air, with a huge shocking flying blade (~48lbs?).
...its no monktopus, but its classy (I tell myself).
If I remember correctly from recent errata, you can directly apply your monk unarmed strike damage rating over your usual natural attack damage with FCT, which means that you could be dealing with monk unarmed dice scaled up to huge, then scaled by level and a robe, then scaled with strong jaw - really, scaled with anything that would improve a natural weapon, a manufactured weapon or an unarmed strike. Might that overtake improved natural tentacle (large)?
Well I just found a huge octopus (see previous post)... but that was the concept I was using. The balancing factor for the octopus, even the Huge version, is that its tentacles normally deal ld6+half strength damage... even with a 28 strength, that means a druid will hit each for an average of 7.5 damage on each tentacle.
With the build I was using, you use FCT to apply monk unarmed damage instead. With an effective monk level 12, you deal 2d6 damage.
Scaled up to Huge that means 4d6 damage.
Then I added the 'impact' weapon property to up that by another size category to 6d6.
You could use strong jaw, but that requires setup. It would be 8d6 instead of 6d6, but I prefer the constant bonus, and that build wouldn't even have enough druid levels to cast it. Basically that build says no thanks to spells... barkskin and light cures would be all I took.
Then you add in dragon ferocity, so you are getting 1x strength instead of 1/2 on those attacks, and it is a sexy attack. You could definitely do this with an elemental as well, but the advantage is lessened because you have less attacks and the slam damage is already good. Same is true for something like an allosaurus, because FCT only applies to one Natural Attack type and even though it can get 5 attacks, they are of three different types.
Also, I should point out that magical effects that increase the size category of your weapon dice (like impact and strong jaw and lead blades and a belt of thunderous charging) don't stack... this was listed in a FAQ about lead blades, but I assume it extends to the whole suite of effects.
So, the idea is to either find a really big single attack on a monster, and use that monster's damage, but Flurry with that attack, or to find something with a ton of low damage attacks and replace the damage with unarmed strike damage.
The other real issue I have with elemental shapes and plant shapes is that they come very late in the game... they also do not qualify for Planar Wild Shape... which, if added to my Monktopus build at 13, would give the character DR 10/Evil, Resist Cold, Acid, and Electricity 15 and Darkvision while shaped. Ultimately, its the difference between needing to dip 4 levels of druid and needing to dip 8 levels.
Possibly the most disturbing thing about the Monktopus as written is that it is still nearly half barbarian... so at level 17 it can actually get Pounce.... pounce... with 8 tentacles and a bite....
Then go ahead and add in a suit of Rhino Hide that will add another 18d6 onto the mountain of dice you'll be needing... because with the huge octopus revision, and the rhino hide.... that comes to a grand total of 69d6 before bonuses... which should be landing in the realm of 200+
One pounce will be able to average out to just about 450 damage.... a great red wyrm (CR 20) has 391 HP, just to put that in perspective...
Yeah, I completely missed the fact that you actually were doing that until a bit ago when I went and reread it. At first I thought that octopus just had a seriously badass starter-tentacle.
Well, its official then... all he needs now is a little red wagon to wheel his horrifically dangerous ass around on.
With my hopeful next group, build concepts are more based out of theme than anything, so I'm trying to work around a storm druid concept - preserving spellcasting as much as possible and not going too oddball. I do love the idea of rime-frostbite slams/punches with stormburst though; they can't roll their eyes at my innocent little powertrip when the flavor is that savory.
Should be great. I am playing a pretty straight up druid in a campaign right now actually.... I usually do stuff like Monktopus as thought experiments... most of my theorycrafting tries to break the game, but I never actually play those characters.
Currently I am a lion shaman (my GM let me be a huge cat... though the advantages are actually pretty hard to find over the large version... reach is nice I spose) with a splash of ranger for "Shapeshifting Hunter" to get favored enemies... I don't focus much on spells.
I find that the druid list is best used with conjuration spells and nice buffs that don't require saves, so I didn't pump up wisdom. I actually wanted to play a grappling plant with constrict when I first thought about the character... but ultimately I didn't want to play a trope that couldn't do its main thing well until level 10 or 12. With a lion shaman, I was able to be a huge pouncing cat at level 6.
I think that doing a domain striking storm druid is a great concept. I might still grab that one level of MoMS monk, for dragon style, stunning fist (prereq for dragon ferocity) the wisdom boost to ac, IUS as the prereq for FCT, nice save boosts, etc... its hard to pass up... but it means delaying your elemental shapes until later...it might actually be best to go druid 4, monk for a bit, and then back to druid, taking shaping focus along the way...
It all depends on how you want to play it. Its hard interrupting that caster progression... and TBH, you don't need to. Druids are 100% solid all on their own.
About the montopus, how does it breath? its aquatic.
Well, an octopus can't, but a polymorphed character can. You never lose the ability to breathe air. You gain the ability to breathe under water. You basically just lose EX and SU abilities as well as natural attacks and special qualities attached to your base form. Your type also never changes... you are still a qualifying humanoid when wildshaped.
Oddly enough, you gain the ability to breathe under water, even if the monster can't, so long as it has a swim speed. So if you turn into an alligator or an otter, which normally can't breathe underwater, you, the wildshaped druid, can.
I have to imagine that the reason for this was to prevent using baleful polymorph to turn someone into a fish-out-of-water.
Technically any creature can unarmed strike, they just don't follow the rules for natural attacks, and damage is based on size and monk level (if any). Usually this is a detriment, but with a monk, it might not be.
Technically any creature can unarmed strike, they just don't follow the rules for natural attacks, and damage is based on size and monk level (if any). Usually this is a detriment, but with a monk, it might not be.
Well, the other issue becomes that you will just get attacks based on BAB that way instead of the number of natural attacks.... just because an elemental has three slams at full bab doesn't mean you could make three unarmed strikes at full bab. You would be stuck with whatever your bab (or flurry) gave you.
Technically any creature can unarmed strike, they just don't follow the rules for natural attacks, and damage is based on size and monk level (if any). Usually this is a detriment, but with a monk, it might not be.
It seems like Air Elemental slams basically use the same damage dice as a level 1 monk of their size would for unarmed strike, and they max out at two slams. With one monk level and flurry of blows, you're doing pretty well just using unarmed strike instead; flurry is '-2 but +1 ab,' and you get mainhand iteratives.
Earth and Fire elementals explicitly take humanoid forms and water elementals explicitly can take merfolk forms (merfolk being a subset of "any aquatic creature"). There is no reason to restrict air elementals from having arms when they also take a variety of forms.
That's gonna be my sales-pitch more or less I think - shaped like a djinn with stormknuckles.
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The important thing here is as a 4th level Druid you can cast spider climb, so you can BE that evil thing on the ceiling with tentacles raining down and them not being able to hit you. Also skyswim becomes fun with a scroll.
How are you getting around the fact that the tentacles are secondary and so are at -5 to hit. I imagine the fact that with FCT you can assume that the clause "A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes." lets you apply full str bonus.
Sadly there is a problem with Monktopus - Weapon Focus has a pre-requisite of proficiency with the given weapon. How is your level 3 Monk proficient with tenticles?
That said, if Monktopus took a two level dip into Alchemist and took the tenticle discovery...
It is a bit of a quandry I suppose.
Natural weapons do not actually have proficiencies... there is a small note in the polymorph section that suggests that you are proficient with any attacks gained, but that is never mirrored anywhere else, and is likely a footnote just to make sure that there is no confusion.Natural Weapons are actually below simple weapons... some would argue that you only gain the proficiency when you gain the attack, but nowhere will you find that rule. So when a half-orc takes a feat for a bite attack, the game never states that they are proficient or non-proficient... likely because natural attacks just are. They are secondary or primary and that is the end of that.
Natural attacks don't really work that way. There is no training involved. But if you have a stickler for a GM, then be a Half-Elf and use their bonus weapon proficiency to grab a feat that doesn't exist for a Natural Weapon.
Still, if you have any real problems, you can mix in ranger instead, and grab Weapon Focus through combat style.... that way prerequisites are completely thrown out the window, and you snag a bonus feat as well.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Sadly there is a problem with Monktopus - Weapon Focus has a pre-requisite of proficiency with the given weapon. How is your level 3 Monk proficient with tenticles?
Fixed:
Monk:
1: Dragon Style, Imp. Unarmed Strike
2: Dragon Ferocity
3: Power Attack
Druid
5: Monastic Legacy
7: Shaping Focus
Barbarian:
9: Weapon Focus (Tentacle) --- proficient due to Druid 1
11: Feral Combat Training
The original Monktopus poster didn't order the feats correctly or he assumed he just retrained them into proper alignment.
