As to the above poster (which I won't quote for space), I pretty much agree. Of course, to the AC thing, many people complain about that with monks, too, who become pretty much unhittable if you build them right. There's lots of ways to get around that, like having intelligent mobs ignore the synthesist, or use debuffs on him, in this case if you're high enough a anti-magic field, but in the end, I think it's better just to ask your player not to cheese it up. Making characters for style over effectiveness is more fun anyways.
For instance, my Synthesist is convinced he is a god, so I picked various evolutions like unnatural aura, stuff that isn't optimal, but damn cool to see in action. Asking players to do the same goes a long way to making the synthesist a great addition to the party, as opposed to someone who is completely OP, the same way asking everyone ELSE not to ultra-optimize makes it a group where a monk or rogue can get their stab on without feeling useless.
Synthesist can be pretty...not super-overpowered, because other classes can be too, but they can be such a DIFFERENT target that it makes it difficult to plan for them. They have big disadvantages, but much like the monk or rogue, I can see how people refuse to make the rest of the game around them to make it work. I just kind of see that attitude as hard-headed.
Ffff, I started a new page. So much for "The above poster"
|
A properly built synthasist is overpowered far more than this thread gives credit for.
First, it effectively makes you about a 60-point build if done right. Inheriting the physical stats while keeping your mental suggests just dumping Str/Dex, and only keeping enough Con to survive those brief "out of eidilon" encounters.
They have more HP than any barbarian, and if properly built can have saves that rival anything. This while having massive damage output, the best buffing spell list in the game, and an AC through the roof.
A properly built synthasist is overpowered far more than this thread gives credit for.
First, it effectively makes you about a 60-point build if done right. Inheriting the physical stats while keeping your mental suggests just dumping Str/Dex, and only keeping enough Con to survive those brief "out of eidilon" encounters.
They have more HP than any barbarian, and if properly built can have saves that rival anything. This while having massive damage output, the best buffing spell list in the game, and an AC through the roof.
Well, a properly built ranger can mow down a dragon. All the classes are overpowered. That's the point, it's a fantasy game. The synthesist might look more overpowered, but looks can deceive. Action economy and all that
I agree they can be tricky and require a certain finesse. I just don't like the claims that they're broken just because you can't defeat one as quickly as every other class. They do require some imagination and intelligent tactics on the part of enemies to defeat well.
To quote James Jacobs speaking about GMing intelligent NPCs:
Metagaming is one of the best, if not THE best way to simulate high intelligence.
Mind you, he was talking about intelligence scores in the high 30's. But, wrangling with a 20-25 int wizard should be different from a 16-18 int wizard and I'm not just talking DCs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
2.0 is a bad idea and would cause me to abandon Pathfinder.
I'm not referring to Pathfinder 2.0, but Summoner 2.0.
Summoner broke a lot of ice with its creation. It introduced or presented ideas and concepts in a bold new way. Now that we have more experience, it could benefit from that experience.
This is the same as saying: Something so bold and wildly different is probably going to need more errata (or a revision) than a concept which is more conservative.
Right now we're stuck with a class which even Jacobs disallows from his games, and it's restricted in PFS. I'd rather see a public playtest and improvement on what we do have--so that it could be a part of PFS and more DMs would be able to include it.
Why does everyone seem to think the eidolon looks monstrous and horrid and something straight out of the abyss??? have you guys not READ the "suggested builds" that is under the summoner section in UM??
For instance:
Angel
Source: Ultimate Magic
The eidolon looks like a celestial being such as an angel, archon, or azata. Angel eidolons usually appear as beautiful humanoids with large, feathered wings.
24 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions resistance (fire or electricity), weapon training; Secondary Evolutions basic magic (stabilize), damage reduction (evil), flight, immunity (acid or cold), major magic (cure moderate wounds or invisibility), minor magic (cure light wounds or detect evil), spell resistance, ultimate magic (cure serious wounds, daylight, or tongues) or dimension door.
Bodyguard
Source: Ultimate Magic
The eidolon looks like a humanoid warrior. The natural armor of a Bodyguard eidolon appears to be a suit of metal plate, though this armor is actually part of the eidolon’s body. Bodyguard eidolons are normally trained in a variety of dangerous weapons.
11 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions improved natural armor, weapon training; Secondary Evolutions ability increase (Strength), fast healing, weapon training (martial).
Fey
Source: Ultimate Magic
The eidolon looks like a fey creature such as a dryad, nymph, pixie, or satyr. Fey eidolons usually appear as attractive humanoids and may have insect or butterfly wings. An aquatic fey such as a nixie can be created by adding the gills and swim evolutions, resulting in a 24-point model.
22 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions basic magic (daze, dancing lights, detect magic, or ghost sound), weapon training; Secondary Evolutions damage reduction (lawful), dimension door, flight, low-light vision, major magic (cure moderate wounds or invisibility), minor magic (obscuring mist or vanish), spell resistance.
Genie
Source: Ultimate Magic
The eidolon looks like a genie such as a djinni, efreeti, janni, marid, or shaitan. The eidolon’s movement, energy attacks, and immunity depend on what type of genie is created—a djinni has flight, electricity attacks, and immunity to acid; an efreeti has flight, fire attacks, and immunity to fire; a marid has swim, cold attacks, and immunity to cold; and a shaitan has burrow, acid attacks, and immunity to electricity.
21–23 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions basic magic (detect magic), weapon training; Secondary Evolutions burrow, flight, or swim; energy attacks; immunity; large; major magic (acid arrow, invisibility, or scorching ray); minor magic (burning hands or obscuring mist); ultimate magic (create food and water, gaseous form, or water breathing).
Mammoth
Source: Ultimate Magic
The eidolon is a large, powerful creature with tusks and a prehensile trunk (using the tentacle evolution), such as an elephant or mastodon.
14 points (20 points for Huge): Base Form quadruped; Primary Evolutions gore, tentacle; Secondary Evolutions grab (tentacle), huge, large, mount, scent, slam, trample.
Winged Snake
Source: Ultimate Magic
The eidolon looks like a serpent with wings, such as a couatl or lillend.
23 points (couatl), 26 points (lillend): Base Form serpentine; Primary Evolutions basic magic (any), grab; Secondary Evolutions couatl (constrict, flight, large, magic attacks, major magic [invisibility], minor magic [detect chaos/evil/good/law], poison, ultimate magic [gaseous form]); lillend (constrict, flight, immunity [electricity], large, limbs [arms], magic attacks, major magic [darkness or invisibility], minor magic [cure light wounds], resistance [cold, fire], skilled [Perform], weapon training [martial]).
None of these strike me particulairly as horrid looking or things that demand the killing with fire.
I never said horrid. I said fantastical. That's what the APG says.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think a big issue at heart is the fact that they scale incredibly quickly. It's the issue of combining nearly unmatched martial capabilities atop a quadratic magic game.
I once was given the opportunity to play a synthesist summoner, which I did, and I picked a lot of things based on flavor, and what I wanted to do with him. I turned him into a martial caster... and then by level 7 had about a 40 AC, did a truckload of damage, and looking into my future it was going to get a lot worse really really fast.
Synthesist Summoners are about clear as mud on how a bunch of things interact with them, and then they get a ton of power with nearly no cost to themselves. That's why they're banned.
What's clear as mud? Personally, I find a lot of what I've heard not being clear if you give full effect to the line that gives summoners access to the evolutions. For example, the large evolution makes you both grow.
What's clear as mud? Personally, I find a lot of what I've heard not being clear if you give full effect to the line that gives summoners access to the evolutions. For example, the large evolution makes you both grow.
A lot of it is surrounding the whole "outsider but not an outsider" bit. Like it says that all effects should be treated against you in the worst way, but then there's about three different pieces that circumvent that exact same rule. Then there's the bit about whether or not the Summoner gains access to the evolutions, as the only evolution explicitly stated to not work are the ability boosts for mental stats.
A lot of it is surrounding the whole "outsider but not an outsider" bit. Like it says that all effects should be treated against you in the worst way, but then there's about three different pieces that circumvent that exact same rule.
Outside of those few exceptions, the general rule of treating them the worst of either outsider or not should take place. Is there a specific one you're confused about?
Then there's the bit about whether or not the Summoner gains access to the evolutions, as the only evolution explicitly stated to not work are the ability boosts for mental stats.
This is ONLY for the Aspect ability. No other place has this restriction unless it's been FAQ'd. What's the point you may ask? Again, you can't EXPECT to have your suit summoned 24/7. It's also smart to utilize as Greater Aspect gives you a discount on what evolutions you purchase letting you stretch EPs further.
Higher education is negatively correlated with xenophobia.
I don't know if real life peasants were like that (hard to tell with a lack of time travel) but the typical Medieval Western Europe view of them is that yes they often were. Racism and xenophobia are a fact of life and it was worse back then. (See education, lack thereof.) Just not sure if it was the nobles, peasants, or both who felt that way.
Not to mention the leaders of xenophobic movements were generally educated, bright, and charismatic people. Being wary of strangers does not automatically assume xenophobia.
I do agree an individual with a monstrous, multi-armed eidolon would face some social problem. A summoner with a shiny knight eidolon might be very respected. It's up to the DM to know the difference.
I do agree an individual with a monstrous, multi-armed eidolon would face some social problem. A summoner with a shiny knight eidolon might be very respected. It's up to the DM to know the difference.
I agree.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My experience with a synthesis up to level 4.
Pros:
1. I haven't taken a single point of hit point damage to date. All I've taken is temporary hit point damage. I heal it with Rejuvenate Eidolon between battles. It's low level and I haven't dealt with hard encounters.
2. I have a combined 70 hit points at lvl 4. Fortunately we get to roll for hit points. That has helped.
3. I didn't dump my physical stats because it didn't fit the character concept. We used a 25 point buy, so I wasn't as hamstringed as a 15 point character.
Cons:
1. If your group is ambushed while sleeping, you are vulnerable. A minute to summon your eidolon makes it very ineffective in surprise combats while sleeping.
That's the only negative I've dealt with so far.
Something to note is my DM is fairly tolerant of how I want to run my eidolon suit. The concept is General Zod from Man of Steel in a venom-type suit of armor that looks like Zod's armor. My DM allows me to have the suit respond to my commands revealing parts of my body such as my head when I wish it. He often walks about with his human head revealed with the glowing rune on his forehead.
I'm not building too optimal for damage. I'm using a sword rather than natural attacks. The character believes he is a warrior whose will manifests armor. He doesn't consider himself a summoner. He takes spells and feats to augment his fighting ability.
That's what I like about the Synthesist. The archetype allows for a lot of fun concepts other classes couldn't pull off effectively. I enjoy odd, but effective, character concepts.
What's clear as mud?It might have been clearer as its own class rather than an archetype. Then again, messing up eidolons is easy enough for other types of summoners.
Those kinds of leaders need dupes to follow them. The followers would be less afraid if they knew what they were dealing with.Not to mention the leaders of xenophobic movements were generally educated, bright, and charismatic people.Higher education is negatively correlated with xenophobia.
I don't know if real life peasants were like that (hard to tell with a lack of time travel) but the typical Medieval Western Europe view of them is that yes they often were. Racism and xenophobia are a fact of life and it was worse back then. (See education, lack thereof.) Just not sure if it was the nobles, peasants, or both who felt that way.
Every leader needs dupes to follow them. A majority of sensible, competent people that weren't gullible would make the need for leadership obsolete. Leaders, even those with good aims, rely on people following them. Education does not change that a great deal. It is the type of education that changes it. In the modern day the education system teaches tolerance, which is why the correlation exists.
Education in and of itself does not reduce xenophobia. There were plenty of highly educated folk in Nazi Germany and early America, yet xenophobia, even amongst the educated elite, was at an all time high. Let's not even engage the debate about classism, which was started by the most educated and wealthy of the varying cultural groups.
We could also show how many native tribes exhibited tolerance of new people, though they were the most uneducated of the lot. This due to cultural tendencies rather than education level. Culture impacts xenophobia far more than education ever will. Which means cultural education (aka socialization) is the more important factor in prejudicial behavior.
The basic synthesist, before spells, items and evolutions have at least 37.
That is the same as a monk with dex and wis of 32 .
Syths are actually weaker than normal summoners. People ban them because they don't want high power characters, yet they allow wizards, druids, clerics, witches ect to do what they want. Hypocrites. They also ban them because the average rules weak person has trouble making them correctly.
Sure, lets give up the massive action economy advantage that a pet class with the option for standard action summons and a great spell list has for a character that has to choose carefully what it is doing each round and can only use half of its class at a time. On top of that replicates a game role that other party members can do well enough without him.
Also this thread has already been Godwin's ruled. Argument over, everybody go home.
The basic synthesist, before spells, items and evolutions have at least 37.
That is the same as a monk with dex and wis of 32 .
The number i am talking about is AC of cause i dont know why i left that out:)
Syths are actually weaker than normal summoners. People ban them because they don't want high power characters, yet they allow wizards, druids, clerics, witches ect to do what they want. Hypocrites. They also ban them because the average rules weak person has trouble making them correctly.
Sure, lets give up the massive action economy advantage that a pet class with the option for standard action summons and a great spell list has for a character that has to choose carefully what it is doing each round and can only use half of its class at a time. On top of that replicates a game role that other party members can do well enough without him.
Also this thread has already been Godwin's ruled. Argument over, everybody go home.
I think if you reread the thread while remaining calm. You will see that it is not, just the fact that they are powerful that is the problem.
Depends on the level. A Synthesist Summoner can kill a regular summoner at higher level. A normal summoner's eidolon would have a real hard time hitting a synth summoner, but the reverse is not true.
I know I've worked out my Synth summoner's hit bonuses at high level, he will be able to hit 50 ACs with fair ease without Power Attacking. Since all death spells work off hit points now, the temp hit points make death spells very ineffective against them unless you take off all the temp hit points first. That is pretty hard to do at high level if the Synth is prepared.
Then there is the banishment talk. Maybe a word spell has a great chance of getting rid of them. My will save will be very high when creatures start getting banishment or dismissal.
My base will save without magic will be +11 at lvl 10. If I get a wisdom boosting item, have a spell like heroism active, and have a Cloak of resistance +3, I'll have a +17 will save at lvl 10.
Even if I'm squaring off with a caster with a 28 casting stat, that's still only going to be around DC 25 on my save. Doubtful Most casters will have DCs that high on banishment at lvl 10.
It's not real easy to hamstring a synthesis.
Thanks in Advance For All The Help! ^_^
I allowed one in my campaign (Jade Regent) and we all (exempt the synthesist's player, of course) regret it. The synthsist is ridiculously overpowered. I had to nerf many of the eidolon's evolutions to balance him out against the "normal" PCs.
Example 1: What do you do against a summoner sitting in his eidolon-suit and both are immune to one energy type just because the eidolon is?
Example 2: Just make a chart of all your PC's hit points beginning at 1st level and calculating them through level 20 (adding the hp of the synthesist-to-be and his/her eidolon together). Oops! Waaaaaay to much.
Example 3: Just tinker with the Armor Class of the symbiont (eidolon and summoner)... AC 10 + good Dex of the eidolon + increasing natural armor + better as any normal monster's Improved Natural Armor + mage armor + shield and you got a AC titan at 3rd level.
Example 4: [exaggerated but close to the truth] Anything that any regular PC can do, the synthesist can do much earlier and better. Fighting, resisting, spell-casting.
I like the idea of a fused summoner/eidolon but the game mechanics are not only broken but completely devastated. I'll don't want to spoil your fun. Go ahead and try but be warned that you raise a monstrosity at your gaming table.
Cheers
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also this thread has already been Godwin's ruled. Argument over, everybody go home.
Godwin's law doesn't apply when one is examining historical examples of bigotry. In such cases Nazism is relevant to the discussion, Raith Shadar's use of the historical reference was not hyperbolic.
Why do people assume being a peasant makes them closed minded, hateful, bigots? [/QUOTE
Because a group of peasants with torches and pitchforks make a mob. A bunch of aristocats that get angry just form a snit.
As the person discussing with Raith, I agree. He made a very good point about tolerant education (education doesn't have to be tolerant).
So how tolerant is Golarion education?
There is no single answer. It varies based on region, nation, city, social circle, etc. You'll get a different answer based on the source material. Some groups are more progressive than others.
Do you need energy immunity with improved evasion? Maybe to deal with ray energy spells I imagine. For the most part you're pretty well insulated from AoE energy attacks including dragon breath.
Do you need energy immunity with improved evasion? Maybe to deal with ray energy spells I imagine. For the most part you're pretty well insulated from AoE energy attacks including dragon breath.
Pehaps you dont need it but it is only a second level Spell away. And that is a Spell that can do alot of different things for you:)
So when you go after the red drake in his lava Cave why not:)
All summoners more or less put martial characters to shame. They combine abilities that should never have been placed together in the hands of a PC. Synthesists manage to SEEM particularly egregious at putting martial characters to shame.
Summoners in general (that is, classes with the summon monster/nature's ally line of spells) put martial characters to shame. The druid, with their animal companion and spontaneous casting of SNA, deserves special mention here. Sure, summoned critters aren't as effective as martial PCs, but they're cheap to throw out and you don't care if they die. Throw some group buffs at them (inspire courage is a nice one) and they're good to go. The one downside is the full-round action to cast the summoning spells, but there are a few ways around that.
The root problem isn't the summoner. It's the martial-caster disparity.
Furthermore, in terms of rules clarity and consistency, the synthesist is perhaps the most poorly written archtype of a poorly written class.
Probably, though it does face some stiff competition from the gunslinger.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For those of you who are touting the Synthesist banner... how about you try and get your synthesist to beat a Summoner who is spamming Mass CSW every turn and getting another 3 attacks AND is casting one more spell than they were teh round before?
Action economy is worth alot more many of you think it is. A master summoner is easily MUCH more powerful than any Synthesist. Why? Action Economy. At level 20, a master summoner can easily spam his SM IX ability 15+ times per day (depending if he took the feat Extra Summons). Which means he can easily pop out a new Trumpet Archon every turn (if he has Quicken Spell-like ability then he can pop out 2 per turn for 3 turns). That trumpet archon casts like a 14 th lvl cleric, has Mass CLW AND CSW(2) prepared AND it has heal prepared, has a +4 Greatsword with 3 attacks a round, and many other useful buffs. If you keep spitting out one a round, your action economy is going to start getting rediculous and you can easily overwhelm the Synthesist.
"Ok, I am going to use my SM IX ability and summon a trumpet archon. Ok the trumpet archon uses CSW Mass on me."
Next Turn
"I use SM IX again, summoning another trumpet archon. The trumpet archon from last turn full attacks the Synthesist, the trumpet archon that just got summoned uses CSW mass on me to heal me for all the damage you just dealt"
Next turn
'I use SM IX again, summoning another Trumpet Archon. The First Trumpet archon will use banishment on your eidolon. The Second Trumpet archon will full attack (if banishment succeeded, if not, it will then cast banishment). The new trumpet archon will use Heal on me."
And on and on it goes. Pretty much if you cannot just straight 1 shot the master summoner, he could walk all over you.
For those of you who are touting the Synthesist banner... how about you try and get your synthesist to beat a Summoner who is spamming Mass CSW every turn and getting another 3 attacks AND is casting one more spell than they were teh round before?
Action economy is worth alot more many of you think it is. A master summoner is easily MUCH more powerful than any Synthesist. Why? Action Economy. At level 20, a master summoner can easily spam his SM IX ability 15+ times per day (depending if he took the feat Extra Summons). Which means he can easily pop out a new Trumpet Archon every turn (if he has Quicken Spell-like ability then he can pop out 2 per turn for 3 turns). That trumpet archon casts like a 14 th lvl cleric, has Mass CLW AND CSW(2) prepared AND it has heal prepared, has a +4 Greatsword with 3 attacks a round, and many other useful buffs. If you keep spitting out one a round, your action economy is going to start getting rediculous and you can easily overwhelm the Synthesist.
"Ok, I am going to use my SM IX ability and summon a trumpet archon. Ok the trumpet archon uses CSW Mass on me."
Next Turn
"I use SM IX again, summoning another trumpet archon. The trumpet archon from last turn full attacks the Synthesist, the trumpet archon that just got summoned uses CSW mass on me to heal me for all the damage you just dealt"
Next turn
'I use SM IX again, summoning another Trumpet Archon. The First Trumpet archon will use banishment on your eidolon. The Second Trumpet archon will full attack (if banishment succeeded, if not, it will then cast banishment). The new trumpet archon will use Heal on me."
And on and on it goes. Pretty much if you cannot just straight 1 shot the master summoner, he could walk all over you.
I am not sure why one class being broken excludes another from also being broken.
But the Master summoner is not so hot if he dosent get the intiative. And the trumpet archons will only hit the synt on a 20. If the Master summoner have a way to issue several different commands to his angelic army every round he most degeneret have a good chance. I dont generally think it fruitfull to max out for pvp but remember that the synt with just a single Spell can get powers like swallow whole.Try your Master summoner on the challenge and tell us how it goes.
That's why the trumpet archons would try to banish the eidolon in a round-robin style. No more suit = weak caster. He'll probably be dead within the next round.
It doesn't . Both archetypes, Synthesist, and Master Summoner are banned from PFS.
PFS also bans the siege mage and spellslinger archetypes. Being banned from PFS doesn't imply something is broken.
Master summoner is banned mostly from time considerations. Having spammed summons means a huge bog down in time, esp when you are dealing with time slotted PFS events.
The gun archetypes are because they wanted guns to be exclusive.
Synthisist because they were probably responding to all the butt hurt players out there, and that most people couldn't legally build one to save their life.
IIRC they banned vivisecionist not because of power concerns, 3/4 BAB sneak attack class that doesn't suck for once gets banned not from power, but from the fluff not being heroic.
And all you who think a synth is so much better than martial characters at dealing damage don't know how to make them to the same level of optimization. The scary part of a synth isn't that it is a melee god or anything, its that it is still a 6 level caster while being good at combat. which points out the action economy problems with the class compared to the base version which can pump out nearly the same amount of hurt without giving up spell casting every round.
When it comes to pure cheese I would take a cleric over a synth any day. 3/4 BAB character that can easily spam summons as a standard action and can take an archetype that lets them inspire courage like a bard. Being a divine character like that lets them heal massively to keep their summons up under pressure and lets them have a fuller array of defensive/offensive buff spells. And a cleric isn't a bad combatant if you know how to build them.
|
For those of you who are touting the Synthesist banner... how about you try and get your synthesist to beat a Summoner who is spamming Mass CSW every turn and getting another 3 attacks AND is casting one more spell than they were teh round before?
Action economy is worth alot more many of you think it is. A master summoner is easily MUCH more powerful than any Synthesist. Why? Action Economy. At level 20, a master summoner can easily spam his SM IX ability 15+ times per day (depending if he took the feat Extra Summons). Which means he can easily pop out a new Trumpet Archon every turn (if he has Quicken Spell-like ability then he can pop out 2 per turn for 3 turns). That trumpet archon casts like a 14 th lvl cleric, has Mass CLW AND CSW(2) prepared AND it has heal prepared, has a +4 Greatsword with 3 attacks a round, and many other useful buffs. If you keep spitting out one a round, your action economy is going to start getting rediculous and you can easily overwhelm the Synthesist.
"Ok, I am going to use my SM IX ability and summon a trumpet archon. Ok the trumpet archon uses CSW Mass on me."
Next Turn
"I use SM IX again, summoning another trumpet archon. The trumpet archon from last turn full attacks the Synthesist, the trumpet archon that just got summoned uses CSW mass on me to heal me for all the damage you just dealt"
Next turn
'I use SM IX again, summoning another Trumpet Archon. The First Trumpet archon will use banishment on your eidolon. The Second Trumpet archon will full attack (if banishment succeeded, if not, it will then cast banishment). The new trumpet archon will use Heal on me."
And on and on it goes. Pretty much if you cannot just straight 1 shot the master summoner, he could walk all over you.
You can't take Quicken Spell-Like Ability on the summoner SLA summoning ability.
The level of the summoning spell increase to 9, but Quicken Spell-Like Ability require you to have a minimum level top quicken a SLA, a minimum level that depend on the SLA spell level.At most you can quicken a 6th level SLA and only if you have a caster level of 20.
[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html#_quicken-spell-like-ability]Quicken Spell-Like Ability
-
You can't take Quicken Spell-Like Ability on the summoner SLA summoning ability.
The level of the summoning spell increase to 9, but Quicken Spell-Like Ability require you to have a minimum level top quicken a SLA, a minimum level that depend on the SLA spell level.At most you can quicken a 6th level SLA and only if you have a caster level of 20.
[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html#_quicken-spell-like-ability]Quicken Spell-Like Ability
Correct. Summoner Monster VIII is a 6th level spell for summoners. You could quicken the SPA in that capacity. Since Summoner Monster IX isn't on their list, it could be arguable the spell-level of the ability tops out at 6.
|
|
Correct. Summoner Monster VIII is a 6th level spell for summoners. You could quicken the SPA in that capacity. Since Summoner Monster IX isn't on their list, it could be arguable the spell-level of the ability tops out at 6.You can't take Quicken Spell-Like Ability on the summoner SLA summoning ability.
The level of the summoning spell increase to 9, but Quicken Spell-Like Ability require you to have a minimum level top quicken a SLA, a minimum level that depend on the SLA spell level.At most you can quicken a 6th level SLA and only if you have a caster level of 20.
Buri, SLA default in a specific way to character class spells:
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
so the summoner summon monster SLA default to the wizard spell for its spell level, and don't care at all what spell level it is for a summoner.
And the SLA duplicate a specific spell at each level, you don't get to cast it as a lower level spell, you only get the normal option to summon a larger number of lower level creatures using the highest level spell.
What's to stop the Synthesist from ignoring all the summoned creatures and the eidolon and destroying the summoner? With the summoner as a separate entity, you can make your way to a regular summoner and finish him.
Master Summoners are great against the environment, but hardly OP in player vs. player. Summoned monsters are weak. I even summoned a solar using gate at level 20, he couldn't come close to outdamaging high level martials. Not within sniffing distance. If he had tried to melee one of those high level martials, he would have died pretty quickly.
One word spell from a powerful evil creature usually renders summoned creatures moot.
Synthesist doesn't have those problems. I think the Synthesist is more powerful at higher levels than the vanilla summoner or the master summoner.
It can indicate that the class or archetype simply does not fit into the campaign setting, as is the case with spellslinger as it suggests that guns are more common than the setting specifies.
It can also mean that certain archetypes like the master summoner wind up dedicating too much play time to one player as is the case when a summoner is spamming multiple summon spells. Or is a problematic table balancer as is the case with the synth summoner.
There are multiple reasons for banning a class or archetype from PFS. If Paizo does do a ban it generally does so reluctantly as such decisions can impact on product sales. So if they do do so, it's generally for a good reason.
Yes, I agree that there are reasons to ban an archetype besides that it's too powerful. But that means you cannot point to an archetype being banned as evidence that it's too powerful.
What's to stop the Synthesist from ignoring all the summoned creatures and the eidolon and destroying the summoner? With the summoner as a separate entity, you can make your way to a regular summoner and finish him.
Master Summoners are great against the environment, but hardly OP in player vs. player. Summoned monsters are weak. I even summoned a solar using gate at level 20, he couldn't come close to outdamaging high level martials. Not within sniffing distance. If he had tried to melee one of those high level martials, he would have died pretty quickly.
One word spell from a powerful evil creature usually renders summoned creatures moot.
Synthesist doesn't have those problems. I think the Synthesist is more powerful at higher levels than the vanilla summoner or the master summoner.
You could go for the Master Summoner, but remember, he is having the Heal Spell (for 140) or CSW cast on him every single turn. If he is really hurt, he can have it cast twice (once from each Archon). So, unless you can straight one shot the Summoner, you are going to have a hard time keeping him down. Oh, and while he is getting healed, he is also full attacking you with increasingly more full attacks/Making you roll more and more will saves to resist banishment.
At higher levels, Master Summoners get VERY rediculous VERY fast. Don't forget that, if wealth isn't much of an issue, he can always spam the crap out of the Gate spell as well. As far as I am aware of, he is the only caster who can cast Gate 15+ times per day. Heck, the time the synthesist would beat the Master Summoner is not late game, but early game. Before the Master Summoner is able to summon the big giant demons and angels.
What's to stop the Synthesist from ignoring all the summoned creatures and the eidolon and destroying the summoner? With the summoner as a separate entity, you can make your way to a regular summoner and finish him.
Master Summoners are great against the environment, but hardly OP in player vs. player. Summoned monsters are weak. I even summoned a solar using gate at level 20, he couldn't come close to outdamaging high level martials. Not within sniffing distance. If he had tried to melee one of those high level martials, he would have died pretty quickly.
One word spell from a powerful evil creature usually renders summoned creatures moot.
Synthesist doesn't have those problems. I think the Synthesist is more powerful at higher levels than the vanilla summoner or the master summoner.
You could go for the Master Summoner, but remember, he is having the Heal Spell (for 140) or CSW cast on him every single turn. If he is really hurt, he can have it cast twice (once from each Archon). So, unless you can straight one shot the Summoner, you are going to have a hard time keeping him down. Oh, and while he is getting healed, he is also full attacking you with increasingly more full attacks/Making you roll more and more will saves to resist banishment.
At higher levels, Master Summoners get VERY rediculous VERY fast. Don't forget that, if wealth isn't much of an issue, he can always spam the crap out of the Gate spell as well. As far as I am aware of, he is the only caster who can cast Gate 15+ times per day. Heck, the time the synthesist would beat the Master Summoner is not late game, but early game. Before the Master Summoner is able to summon the big giant demons and angels.
Do you play the high level game? Whenever I hear these kinds of comments, I wonder.
I have used gate. As I stated I summoned a solar, they could not come close to matching a high level fighter or barbarian's damage output, not even close.
A heal spell heals 150 points of damage. A high level Synthesist's damage output will easily match that not including crits. My average hit near the time we can use gate will be 1d8+49 per hit. I'm using a Falcata, so one crit will eliminate a heal. My hit roll will be obscene. Something like +39 to hit.
Big, giant demons and angels are weak and easily beaten. That's why I don't like the Master Summoner all that much. I think they do decent as they level up. They won't outmatch high level characters that can drop word spells as easily as speech eliminating their summons quickly.
Summoner Monster 9 and Gate spells aren't as great as people seem to think they are. Creatures have all manner of spells to get rid of enemies with far fewer hit dice than them. AoE spells are a huge part of the game at high level. Not just AoE damage, but AoE dispels, save or suck effects, and other such factors. And the damage output of high level melees is a sight to behold. Summoned creatures won't last long against high level melees.
I'd chuckle if the summoner spent his time having his angels cast heal on him. He would need it every single round as I hacked him to bits. 150 hit points is absolutely nothing in high level play.
I have a lvl 18 sorcerer that can do 200 points of AoE damage in a single round. The high level game is destructive to summon creatures.
I chose the synthesis because I know we'll get to at least lvl 15. I've seen what happens to eidolons and summoned creatures past that level. It's not fun at all.
Has there been any clarification if using a spell-like ability based on a spell with a 1 round casting time as a standard action changes when the effect takes place?
I know there was arguments about it some year back but don't know if there was a FAQ or similar clarifying it. Because if not, it's very much up to DM adjudication.
In other words, has it been clarified if "cast this as a standard action" changes it's designation to have casting time: 1 standard action, or if it by RAW only changes the action required to cast it, from:
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."
to:
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a standard action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."
The SPA is a standard action. The full-round stuff is moot for a master summoner.
The SPA is a standard action. The full-round stuff is moot for a master summoner.
Has there been a clarification that this is the case? Note that it is not "full-round" as in full-round action that's the issue, but rather the one round casting time causing the effects to come into play right before the beginning of one's next turn.
By RAW, a spell with a casting time of one round takes a full-round action to cast and _in addition the effect comes into play a round later_.
The SLA states that using it is a standard action - it doesn't say the casting time is changed. A valid RAW interpretation - again, unless there was some FAQ or dev clarification - is that it takes a standard action to cast and _in addition the effect comes into play a round later_.
That's only true of spells that take a full-round to cast. The SPA doesn't take a full-round to cast.
Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.
He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level).
It casts as a standard action. I don't see where your confusion comes from.
That's only true of spells that take a full-round to cast. The SPA doesn't take a full-round to cast.
1 round casting time is a measure of time.
Full-round action is a measure of action."Casting Time"
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."
The SLA states it changes what action. It does not state it changes how long time.
The rule states that when you cast a spell with a 1 round casting time, you use a full-round action. Also, the effect comes into play one round later.
It does not state that when you cast a spell with a full-round action it comes into play one round later (or a sorcerer casting Extended Enlarge Person would have to wait).
See the issue?
Nevertheless, interpreting the change in action as implying that there should also be a change in time doesn't seem unreasonable, and I personally hold that viewpoint, but it is not clear by RAW.
And since there's a precedent of the reverse not being true - a spell which required action changes to a full-round action does not automatically change to 1 round casting time, see spontaneous metamagic - there is a very strong argument for it by RAW - and possibly even RAI, though I personally don't believe that - not changing the casting time, only the casting action.
Note that this is the same issue as when applying Quicken Spell to a spell with a 1-round casting time, such as the SM line and Enlarge Person.