Some Help On Why Synthesis Summoners Are Disallowed?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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No, I don't. It's a standard action casting time. The rule on full-round casting times and effects no longer comes into play.


The way I see it, a summoner is simply a druid that has a fighter equivalent for an animal companion, with a different yet equally powerful feat selection.

A synthesist is a top tier caster, with many spells at6th level that the wizard/sorcerer gain at 9th... and virtually all of the feats of a fighter.

He also dumps his stats to boot.

I mean imagine taking 1 dip in barbarian, 19 levels in synth and spending all of your evolution points on natural attacks (up to your max nat attacks of course), but leaving on set of hands open to TWF....

Synthesists are a high powered caster who can do martial things that NOBODY ELSE CAN EVER CONSIDER DOING

Like multiweapon fighting with four longbows,

A synthesist without spells is still stronger than a fighter or a ranger.

A synthesist with spells can practically 1v5 a party and win


Buri wrote:
No, I don't. It's a standard action casting time.

That is not written in the ability though. Just that you can use it as a standard action. It makes no statements about casting time. It does not say "the casting time is a standard action".


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A synthesist is a top tier caster, with many spells at6th level that the wizard/sorcerer gain at 9th

This is infuriating to hear repeated over and over. A wizard gets 9th level spells at level 17. A summoner gets 6th level spells at level 16. To take what you said at face value makes it seem like summoners get their top spells at level 11. Very few of the summoner's 6th level spells come anywhere close to 9th level wizard spells. They don't get wish. Being 3 levels less, their saves are stunted as well. They're a capable caster. Not "top tier." 9th level casters have that designation. A summoner is not one of them.


Ilja wrote:
That is not written in the ability though. Just that you can use it as a standard action. It makes no statements about casting time. It does not say "the casting time is a standard action".

It's not relevant. The rule you're talking about is tied to full-round action timed spells. The SPA doesn't not take a full-round action. It takes a standard.


While I agree it doesn't come close to a wizard in casting, it does have it's benefits; the lower spell level of powerful spells means it can more reliably be made into wands, potions and especially altered with metamagic rods. It costs a wizard 75k GP to have a rod of quicken that can affect Greater Invisibility or Dimension Door - just 35k for a summoner. And unlike a full caster it can brew potions of those spells.

It's not a full caster, granted, but it has tricks up it's sleeve that others doesn't.


Buri wrote:


It's not relevant. The rule you're talking about is tied to full-round action timed spells. The SPA doesn't not take a full-round action. It takes a standard.

No, it's not. It's tied to spells with 1 round casting times. It also states that they take a full round action to use.

Look at it this way: Heavy crossbows state the following:
"Load: Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Note: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. "

If you have rapid reload, it instead will take a move action to reload.

Does this mean that if you have rapid reload, it is no longer a heavy crossbow and thus does not require two hands? No, it still has it's classification as a heavy crossbow, and all the other limitations of a heavy crossbow still applies even if the action required has changed. Just like a quickened summon monster still may be classified as a spell with a 1 round casting time, and still have the limitations of a spell with a 1 round casting time, even though the action has changed.

Basically, action type used and time it takes to cast are not necessarily linked together - we see this for example in how differently 1 round casting time spells are treated to spontaneous metamagic. Casting time, and the action used to cast, are different factors - just like time required to reload and number of hands required to reload are different factors.

So what the SLA does is it gives you something similar to rapid reload - the question is if it allows you to reload with a single hand too.

Sovereign Court

well synthesist summoner are banned in pfs because, it is a low level kind of deal and they are extremely good at low levels. At higher level, the summoner with a pet eidolon is much better off, as the brutes of higher level are pretty ridiculous.


You can't potion or wand a 6th level spell. Your wording insinuates you possibly could since you didn't discriminate on spell level. I see no one railing on paladin or ranger spells. Bestow Grace of the Champion for pally-in-a-stick is hella nice and is a 7th level cleric spell, for comparison. A wand of break enchantment would be tasty as well.

You can't exceed the level of spell you can cast. The only benefit you get is you can get a rod of quicken spell for the totality of your spells for cheaper than a wizard. Again, these are NOT the same things as summoner's don't get near the breadth of spells wizards do nor are they as powerful. The best match would be maze, imo.


Buri wrote:
You can't potion or wand a 6th level spell.

Of course not, didn't mean to imply otherwise? Thought I was pretty clear I refered to the spells which are 3rd level for summoner but 4th level for other casters (such as my examples).

Quote:
I see no one railing on paladin or ranger spells. Bestow Grace of the Champion for pally-in-a-stick is hella nice and is a 7th level cleric spell, for comparison. A wand of break enchantment would be tasty as well.

I'm not railing, but there have been complaints about 750 gp wands of lesser restoration are abusive because "well paladins don't make wands!!". Which I don't agree with.

Honestly, I think the most "broken" spell to be made into a wand is Instant Enemy, not because rangers are overpowered but because that spell messes so much with how you build a ranger and encourages you to do really weird stuff (such as taking as obscure favored enemies as possible).

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The only benefit you get is you can get a rod of quicken spell for the totality of your spells for cheaper than a wizard.

Yes, quite a lot cheaper, often less than half for key spells.

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Again, these are NOT the same things as summoner's don't get near the breadth of spells wizards do nor are they as powerful. The best match would be maze, imo.

Fully agreed and I stated so above too? Though there are good options beside maze. A summoner can get Quickened Summon Monster VIII several levels before a wizard can - on the other hand, when the wizard can afford the rod, it can affect up to a Summon Monster IX. And that's just at the top levels - I'm far more interested in what happens at lower levels since that's where the majority of play takes place.

When it comes to offensive casting, a synthesist can compare to say a druid, at least before the high levels. While spells per day will be slightly more limited and spell level slightly lower, casting stat will probably be higher evening it out, and can use lesser rods on spells like Black Tentacles and Obsidian Flow. Of course, the druid has an animal companion too, but the synthesist is miles buffer in melee. But when it comes to straight offensive casting I think they're comparable.

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