level 15 - Player became frustrated at class, almost no change from level 10 besides a few number increases to old abilities, more teamwork feats and 2 levels of spells. Player complained that the class had no feel of its own. It constantly underperformed in damage and utility compared to the other classes, and the animal companion became a liability at this point seeing that it only had a 25% chance to hit un-buffed and failed almost all will saves thrown at it. This once again removed half of the hunters class focus, teamwork feats.
Hmm...
Is the wisdom/saving throw supposed to be countered with items by that level?Not a criticism, just asking.
There is only so much you can shore up a bad save. The closer you get to twenty the more likely save or lose spells become lose or lose. Combine that fact with the difficulty of actually outfitting a companion due to non standard equipment and you have big issues.
Sounding like they might need an "improved devotion" class feature?
Animal Growth seems extremely useful as a spell. Though it will effectively reduce the AC by 2, it will increase HPs by 2/HD and the to hit by 3, damage by 4 (plus the dice increase) and the CMB/CMD by 5/3 respectively. That can be huge for both damage output or combat maneuver effectiveness.
Strong jaw is useful as a damage buff that is not tied to an overly present bonus type.
In both examples they show a greater discrepancy between the hunter and the druid; the druid will get each spell at level 9 and 7 respectively while the hunter won't until 13 and 10.
This further increases the gap of effectiveness between the Druid and the Hunter in the Hunter's own niche!
Allowing the hunter to instead take them as ranger spells helps (changing the levels to 10 and 7) but it shows that the attempt to simplify the Hunter class to just using the Druid list without any modification is problematic.
Okay...after taking another look at animal growth...yeah, that would be a great reusable buff. I might have to reconsider putting it in my list. :)
Well, the ability to pick between druid and ranger for spell level would probably help prioritize certain spells, I'm sure.
Saw the mention of Precise Shot / Precise Strike being mentioned and possibly included as class feats. Any idea when these feats would come in the class levels?
Animal Growth seems extremely useful as a spell. Strong jaw is useful as a damage buff that is not tied to an overly present bonus type.
In both examples they show a greater discrepancy between the hunter and the druid; the druid will get each spell at level 9 and 7 respectively while the hunter won't until 13 and 10.
This further increases the gap of effectiveness between the Druid and the Hunter in the Hunter's own niche!
Allowing the hunter to instead take them as ranger spells helps (changing the levels to 10 and 7) but it shows that the attempt to simplify the Hunter class to just using the Druid list without any modification is problematic.
Right, and I think that shows that using Ranger Spell Levels as-is is wholly workable, without any "Ranger Level +1" stuff, which would defeat the point... (e.g. drawing from all Druid and Ranger spells, using Ranger Spell Level when on both lists) That certainly means getting stuff before the Ranger (char level wise), but the Hunter is supposed to be a better caster and have a better Companion than the Ranger, so no problem there.
Over-all I think I would be happy with a general buff of the AC, possibly with new 'Tier' unique abilities for each Companion type (equivalent to how each type 'grows up' around Level 4/7), perhaps a Type Change to the Companion at mid-levels (avoiding dip-ability) which among other things makes Handle Animal mostly irrelevant as it will be an intelligent non-animal being: That also opens up more options for Class Abilities that the Companion themself can choose to initiate, even if they are Immediate Actions/ reactions to unforseeable events outside of Handle Animal Tricks, etc. Like the Pack Lord Druid, Improved Empathic Link allowing to 'Scry' on Familiar seems plausible.
The Aspect system is pretty good, although I feel like perhaps with the above changes, it might be shifted to something that is more of a choice between buffing the Companion further and buffing the Hunter themself further. That would ideally allow a broader range of build focuses, from the buffest Companion possibl (which is the main focus) to a more Personal Combat of the Hunter focus (which is less of a focus, and perhaps may not quite be as comparable to the other build, but you can choose to develop the features in that direction somewhat, and it could be viable in certain multi-class builds that access other personal-combat-enhancing abilities).
Otherwise, the Teamwork Feat thing is a good way to go, perhaps just evaluate the Feats themselves with the final direction of the Class and create some more which really draw out the possibilities there... Having the class focus be more built around the Hunter themself getting involved in combat alongside the Companion (compared to the Summoner) is more than reasonable, but that doesn't mean the offensive bower balance must depend on the Hunter doing lots of damage themself, more like with Teamwork Feats and other means the events/actions that happen when the Hunter/Companion fight with each other trigger synergistic bonuses.
And of course... change the name to something less suggestive of personal combat and more suggestive of the importance of the Companion (Beast Master...) if that is the design direction.
Couldn't agree more!
And while the Ranger spell list includes some "trap" options like Instant Enemy I think it's safe to assume that prospective hunters are intelligent enough to know that. In fact these spells could become useful for possible archetypes that might include the favored enemy rule.
Given that we're talking a major overhaul here, I think the hunter definitely needs another round of playtesting. I would also say the shaman could use another round too, given it's getting pretty significant revisions.
The rest of the classes, with the possible exception of maybe the Brawler or Investigator, don't really seem to need a round three. They're mostly just balance tweaks.
Given that we're talking a major overhaul here, I think the hunter definitely needs another round of playtesting. I would also say the shaman could use another round too, given it's getting pretty significant revisions.
The rest of the classes, with the possible exception of maybe the Brawler or Investigator, don't really seem to need a round three. They're mostly just balance tweaks.
I definitely agree here (though I haven't followed all the classes closely)
The Slayer looked like it was performing well but could use some tweaks to increase the synergy of mechanics
The Skald looked really awesome (and balanced).
But the Hunter probably should undergo extra testing (and from what I saw of the Brawler and Investigator I could see the same thing).
Not necessarily the place to discuss these thing (I couldn't help myself) but it is important to point out the Hunter needs some serious work to advance beyond a weaker druid alternate...
Points I support:
- Making the Hunter a spontaneous caster.
- Turning animal focus into permanent animal abilities for the hunter.
- Giving him some hunting focused ability for flavor.
- Making an archetype completely focused in shapechanging.
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"A hunter cast spells drawn from the druid spell list and the ranger spell list. Only druid spells of up to 6th level are considered to be on the hunter's spell list and if a spell appears on both the druid spell list and the ranger spell list at different spell levels, use the lower level when determining the minimum level and Wisdom score that the hunter needs in order to be able to cast the spell."
Obviously needs more polish then I can give it in the half hour I have before work, but could still be a neat addition to the game. There are a LOT of strong Ranger spells out there, and getting access to them before the ranger could help to solidify the hunter's niche of being good at spellcasting.
I do think the huge amount of dead levels that the class receives are a problem. Even if your animal is getting something, that's not a good reason for you to get absolutely nothing. It makes the hunter look bare compared to all of the other 6-level spellcasters in the game, which all receive some sort of benefit at every level. (Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Summoner, Warpriest; all of them get class features at every level.)
Given that the devs have said they're trying out the hunter with traps, combat styles, spontaneous spellcasting, a buffed companion, and who knows how many other changes, which is awesome..that leaves only one problem.
Barring the release of a third playtest of the class, which I'm hearing isn't likely, that gives us four days with no frame of reference for discussion.
So...now what do we talk about? :D
Given that the devs have said they're trying out the hunter with traps, combat styles, spontaneous spellcasting, a buffed companion, and who knows how many other changes, which is awesome..that leaves only one problem.
Barring the release of a third playtest of the class, which I'm hearing isn't likely, that gives us four days with no frame of reference for discussion.
So...now what do we talk about? :D
We wait friend. We wait and we watch. And we clamor!
I like the discussions and really think everyone has contributed to making the Hunter a much stronger class that initially revealed. I'm glad the devs are thinking about all the instituted changes (like spontaneous, ranger spells being added, the Hunter combat styles to allow flexibility, better training, etc) and can't wait to see the next revision.
All in all, I'm hopeful about the final version of the class. Can't wait to see the final shape!
With such issues with the current build of the hunter, it would be a shame if we are unable to test the next version of the hunter to see if it does resolve the various issues.
One thing that I think of when I draw up this class is the cinematic examples of the animal leaping in the way of the killing blow on the main character. I think this could mechanically be represented by Shield Ally and Greater Shield Ally ala the Summoner. Of if you could cast Shield Other on your companion, or the Hunter. Or if there was an ability to share saving throws with your animal companion, like the Lucky Halfling feat.
Just brainstorming.
I suggest...
-For the day losing our pet
Spontaneus casting (like Druid) + " While Hunter loses her animal companion, Hunter tactics affect her summonned Nature's Ally."
-Hunter's Healing (Su): You can channel energy (as a cleric of your Hunter level) a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier, but only to heal Your animal companion and your summoned Nature's ally. You may reduce the number of dice healed to cure ability damage (your choice) to all affected creatures, curing 1 point of ability damage for each d6 that the channel energy is reduced. You can take other feats to add to this ability, such as Extra Channel, but not feats that alter this ability, such as Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel.
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Given that the devs have said they're trying out the hunter with traps, combat styles, spontaneous spellcasting, a buffed companion, and who knows how many other changes, which is awesome..that leaves only one problem.
Barring the release of a third playtest of the class, which I'm hearing isn't likely, that gives us four days with no frame of reference for discussion.
So...now what do we talk about? :D
I wouldn't count on too much change. Most of the issues the Hunter deals with were pointed out before the revision and that hardly changed the class at all.
With so little adjusting done to a class with so many fundamental issues, and no more chance to see any upcoming changes, it's hard to be motivated to offer feedback at this point. :P
level 15 - Player became frustrated at class, almost no change from level 10 besides a few number increases to old abilities, more teamwork feats and 2 levels of spells. Player complained that the class had no feel of its own. It constantly underperformed in damage and utility compared to the other classes, and the animal companion became a liability at this point seeing that it only had a 25% chance to hit un-buffed and failed almost all will saves thrown at it. This once again removed half of the hunters class focus, teamwork feats.Hmm...
Is the wisdom/saving throw supposed to be countered with items by that level?
Not a criticism, just asking.
At level 15 the animal companions will save is a base of 4, he was playing a T-rex ( which has one of the highest starting wisdoms for animal companions) for a +2, and it had a cloak of resistance +3. That brings it's grand total to +9. Yes he could have invested in feats, or headbands of wisdom, but he didn't. Compared to the Average Dc of that level (22-24), the Companion has a 60-70% failure chance. If it is an enchantment effect it brings the save up to 50%. That is a 50/50 chance of loosing half of you class ablities (teamwork feats that depend on pet), and your animal companion on your best will save. The ranger or the druid does not have this liability if their animal companion goes down. Comparatively a nature based inquisitor or Beast Master cavalier, who are also focused on teamwork feats and animal companions, are not at risk of loosing their major class features or teamwork capabilities. For them their major feature isn't teamwork feats.
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My take:
- Precise Companion should really do something extra if you pick up Precise Shot. Most Hunters will go after PS anyway just because there will likely be other members of the party in melee besides their companion. I think that if they get Precise Shot, Precise Companion should give them +2 to hit instead, as the companion instinctively reveals gaps in the foe's defense or maneuvers the foe better into your line of fire.
- Spontaneous casting, with the ability to learn spells from both the Druid and Ranger lists, is absolutely fantastic.
- A shapeshifting, melee-focused archetype where you get to flank with your animal buddy. This could either be full-on Wildshape, or simply animal "aspects" similar to the natural weapon style hunter.
At level 15 the animal companions will save is a base of 4, he was playing a T-rex ( which has one of the highest starting wisdoms for animal companions) for a +2, and it had a cloak of resistance +3. That brings it's grand total to +9. Yes he could have invested in feats, or headbands of wisdom, but he didn't. Compared to the Average Dc of that level (22-24), the Companion has a 60-70% failure chance. If it is an enchantment effect it brings the save up to 50%. That is a 50/50 chance of loosing half of you class ablities (teamwork feats that depend on pet), and your animal companion on your best will save. The ranger or the druid does not have this liability if their animal companion goes down. Comparatively a nature based inquisitor or Beast Master cavalier, who are also focused on teamwork feats and animal companions, are not at risk of loosing their major class features or teamwork capabilities. For them their major feature isn't teamwork feats.
Yeah, thanks for your response.
Ok so maybe we really need to have the AC be a magical beast instead of just an animal, or some other template that gets applied to boost it at later levels, not unlike the paladin's mount (although I don't think slapping half-celestial on them is the best option).
Any option to not make the main drive of the class end up more of a liability at late levels.
SKR, do you see any potential gotchas with this? Or reasons this is automatically a bad idea?
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Animal Growth seems extremely useful as a spell. Though it will effectively reduce the AC by 2, it will increase HPs by 2/HD and the to hit by 3, damage by 4 (plus the dice increase) and the CMB/CMD by 5/3 respectively. That can be huge for both damage output or combat maneuver effectiveness.
Strong jaw is useful as a damage buff that is not tied to an overly present bonus type.
In both examples they show a greater discrepancy between the hunter and the druid; the druid will get each spell at level 9 and 7 respectively while the hunter won't until 13 and 10.
This further increases the gap of effectiveness between the Druid and the Hunter in the Hunter's own niche!
No, I think it's fine they get spells like this later. Remember that the Hunter is likely to have comparable damage output to the Druid anyway because it has much better weapons. A ranged Druid hiding behind their companion will have a sling or a crossbow - both of which are crap - or they'll be using spells, as they should. This guy meanwhile will likely be full-attacking and rapid-shotting with a bow, so they can wait a little longer for Strong Jaw.
heh the hunter would just do the more reasonable thing when it comes to healing his animal companion, get a wand of cure light wounds and heal out of combat. Even on my cleric, I don't bother converting spells to cure spells, a wand does the job just fine. The only healing spell I bother ever preparing is heal because of how strong it is.A class's ability to function should never be dependent on magic items.
But to function in specific situations, items absolutely should matter. Very few classes gain abilities to breathe underwater for example, particularly at lower levels.
My take:
- Precise Companion should really do something extra if you pick up Precise Shot. Most Hunters will go after PS anyway just because there will likely be other members of the party in melee besides their companion. I think that if they get Precise Shot, Precise Companion should give them +2 to hit instead, as the companion instinctively reveals gaps in the foe's defense or maneuvers the foe better into your line of fire.
- Spontaneous casting, with the ability to learn spells from both the Druid and Ranger lists, is absolutely fantastic.
- A shapeshifting, melee-focused archetype where you get to flank with your animal buddy. This could either be full-on Wildshape, or simply animal "aspects" similar to the natural weapon style hunter.
There are so many exciting archetypes for Hunter, but Paizo will need to be careful because Ranger explores many of these already (or Druid does). This class in particular needs careful balance because it walks a very fine line.
Skirmisher, Trapper, Shapeshifter all are naturally "Hunter" themed. But since they exist as Ranger archetypes, they will need some balance to make similar builds viable for Hunter.
Also, two suggestions to help the base class since their class feature is so entwined with a companion:
1) An ability that allows the Hunter to replace their animal companion in half the time would be nice since they are crippled without them.
2) And/or some type of boon that allows them a quick replacement or stand in like allowing them to act like an Inquisitor when their animal companion is down; Solo Tactics w/o animal companion and they get the constant Animal Focus until the companion comes back.
After reading Siren’s Mask’s post above, it got me thinking a bit more about the nature of the Hunter’s niche specialization.
The other “pet class” (the Summoner) has several ways to deal with their “pet” being taken out or subverted. The nature of the Hunter’s pet being an Animal Companion, however, does not allow a similar recovery mechanic. On reflection, I’m not sure that the Tricks sub-system under Animal Handling is actually robust enough to support a class whose primary focus is the ability to repeatedly use Animal Handling on a specific animal..
I think that if the devs do add an empathic bond ability, they should consider allowing some sort of shared will save potential (maybe allow the Hunter to take a debuff, like the staggered condition for a round in exchange for letting them use their Will save instead of the Companion’s?) or immunity to charm & compulsion effects in a manner similar to that of the paladin as long as the Hunter is within a certain distance of the companion or has line of effect to the Companion. The restrictions on a normal animal companion’s behavior should definitely be looked at as the Hunter by design relies on the Companion for more of their abilities / focus than the other Companion classes do (with the possible exception of the Summoner, which has its own issues, but more importantly does have a custom spell list to allow it to act as general party support in addition to being the familiar for their eidolon).
-TimD
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The idea of Hunters being spontaneous spellcasters that also prepare one spell/level has come up before, but I kind of like the reverse idea - that hunters are prepared spellcasters that have a spontaneous conversion list, maybe even a build-your-own.
Always Prepared: At second level, choose a hunter spell you can prepare. The hunter can “lose” any prepared spell in order to cast any spell chosen with this feature of the same spell level or lower. At level 5 and at every third level after that, choose an additional spell.
(That wording allows, but does not require, the hunter to choose one spell of each real spell level, plus one more at the end.)
That allows the hunter to either know some niche utility spells while preparing more general stuff, or vice versa.
The idea of Hunters being spontaneous spellcasters that also prepare one spell/level has come up before, but I kind of like the reverse idea - that hunters are prepared spellcasters that have a spontaneous conversion list, maybe even a build-your-own.
Always Prepared: At second level, choose a hunter spell you can prepare. The hunter can “lose” any prepared spell in order to cast any spell chosen with this feature of the same spell level or lower. At level 5 and at every third level after that, choose an additional spell.
(That wording allows, but does not require, the hunter to choose one spell of each real spell level, plus one more at the end.)
That allows the hunter to either know some niche utility spells while preparing more general stuff, or vice versa.
+1 internets.
Way to think outside the box.
Not a bad idea. Kinda like a domain-lite.
Not that I don't like the alternate casting ideas but I doubt we'll see a new system for the hunter since it seems designed so that spells are secondary to the martial focus.
It would be awesome to see it as an archetype that focuses more on spell use.
I do like the idea of spontaneous casting for combat purposes, and for the hunter is makes sense to know a small selection of buff and healing spells that she can cast on the fly to aid her animal companion. I do not think she really needs access to heavy-hitter spells like flame strike and ice storm; the concept of the hunter is a tag-team with the companion, not "wipe the enemy out before we engage them" tactics. If the concern is having to battle multiple foes at once, then I would suggest better defensive spells to protect both hunter and companion, and feast that allow attacks to target multiple foes like Rapid Shot, Multishot, Cleave, Great Cleave, and so on. I do NOT think the hunter should have spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally unless you want her to be a broken class. I personally think that was one of the issues with the Summoner: he should have had spontaneous Summon Monster instead of the SLA, even if it meant limiting him to SM6, but at least in HIS case he doesn't have the combat prowess the hunter does. As it is, the hunter should be focused on working with her companion, not summoning in more forces. One concern is if the companion dies, the hunter loses half her abilities. I've previously suggested some sort of Lay Hands of Life Channel ability the hunter can use on her companion. Might I also suggest a type of Breath of Life akin to the Channeled Revival feat that works off this healing ability? Just a thought.
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I think the range of shared spells for hunters should start to increase.
Like: it should be 30 feet at level 5, 60 feet at 10, and then like 2 miles at level 15.
Then maybe add a same-plane range for level 20.
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Adding a "hunter combat style" to allow the hunter to focus on ranged (and get the Precise Shot bonus) or melee (and get something else) is interesting.
I like the suggestion of improved empathic link from the beastmaster range archetype and the hunter's tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype.
We're considering the spontaneous spellcasting, which would make the hunter unique as the only spontaneous caster using the druid list. Personally, I think if the hunter could learn spells from the druid and ranger lists, that would also be unique and interesting.
We're definitely going to improve the hunter's ability to use Handle Animal on the companion, similar to the cavalier's expert trainer ability.
I would love to see spontaneous casting on the Hunter, IMO this is the only thing that would make it feasible to add the entire ranger list in addition to the Druid list. Personally I think full access to the Druid list (even if it is only to level 6) is a bit odd for the Hunter.
The biggest problem I see is the instances where one spell is on both lists at different levels. This could be solved by saying "If a spell appears on both lists at different levels it is acquired at the lower level." Or you could do it at the higher level.
What if the Hunter was allowed two animal companions? And I mean two animal companions that scale fully with the hunter. Perhaps the second one could be at druid level -3, so that the hunter could take boon companion to bring it up to full power?
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One thing I noticed playing my new hunter yesterday is the Precise Companion seems kind of useless if you are in any normal sized group as some one else in the party is bound to be in melee with your target as well so you have to take Precise Shot anyway. Perhaps replace it with the full Precise Shot as a bonus feet?
Precise Companion Review
Flavor: Pass
Function: Fail
I love Animal Focus, I didn't even use it on myself in my game yesterday but switched it around a lot on my companion. Need the Bear to get across the river? Frog, if he misses the jump he swims the rest of the way, he now has bonuses to both for it. Melee Combat? Bull for Strength. About to provoke in order to get around to flank? Snake for a bonus to AC vs. AoO.
One thing about it though, with the limit to 1 minute per level for the hunter I didn't even use it for that, not when I though I might run into something that will need it more. This will likely get better when I can use it more then once a day.
On a funny side note, I have the We Be Goblins 2 Boon to get an Owlbear skin when I hit level 2 and I've been leaving my current bear in Owl Focus for the bonus to stealth (Yes, I trained my bear to be Stealthy.)
Animal Focus Review
Flavor: Pass
Function: Pass
@Irradiated Haggis: Not sure what your AF: wolf would accomplish-- you can only have AF up on one target at a time. So unless there is more than one hunter... :P
I do agree that Animal focus, as what is supposed to be the unique aspects of the class, should be more than a just stat/skill bonus (and if it remains that then at least allow it to stack-- make it morale like a Barbarian rage; uninspired is one thing, uninspired and dysfunctional is inexcusable).
It'd be nice if the Devs would update us on what they plan to do with this class going forward. The thread has been dead for the last couple days since the current class is unexciting and the Devs have been quiet about possible changes.
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Yes, waiting for feed back from the devs as there are still big issues with the class, and new changes need to be tested.
Yes, waiting for feed back from the devs as there are still big issues with the class, and new changes need to be tested.
One of my biggest concerns still has yet to be answered and has been thus far overlooked from what I know:
What happens when the animal companion is dead or incapacitated?
My suggests are further up but basically either/or:
1. Hunter can get a new animal companion quicker (8 hours vs 24 hours)
2. Hunter gets to use the always on boon until the Animal Companion is replaced.
Without the animal companion, this class becomes utterly useless. Loss of the companion, in some way, should not cripple the class. As of right now, that's exactly what happens. Summoner seems the better option right now for anyone wanting to play THE pet class. I really want Hunter to steal that thunder.
Does The hunter get to learn Druidic as a bonus language?
Does The hunter get to learn Druidic as a bonus language?
Nope. Only a Druid can learn the Druidic language. Hunters follow the typical language rules that apply to the other classes (and of course your chosen race).
Haha. I guess nobody else thought that my extended range for shared spells was an elegant solution to powering up the class?
I mean: it would allow the Hunter to buff herself and her animal companion at the same time more readily (instead of when they are always standing right next to each other)
It also lets them flank and fight from range better than the druid which are major selling points for the class. It also makes natural weapon builds really viable for the hunter since she will probably want that cast on her animal companion every day, anyways.
It makes the Hunter's spells better in a way that matches the theme of the class.
No that sounds like a good option to me. I think it's more a matter of the hunter need more than a slight tweak so it gets overlooked.
But buffing will be one of the biggest uses of hunter spells and that's a functional way of enabling the class.
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1 quick note, I would really like to +1 changing the type of bonus bestowed by animal focus.
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Also, two suggestions to help the base class since their class feature is so entwined with a companion:1) An ability that allows the Hunter to replace their animal companion in half the time would be nice since they are crippled without them.
2) And/or some type of boon that allows them a quick replacement or stand in like allowing them to act like an Inquisitor when their animal companion is down; Solo Tactics w/o animal companion and they get the constant Animal Focus until the companion comes back.
I like the idea of getting the hunter back on their feet, but the second part of this leads me to worry about people killing their ACs so that they can change from animal focusing for minutes/level to having an always on animal focus changeable at will. Or not even killing them but playing it VERY fast and loose with their ACs safety. If you were adding something like this I would add two conditionals to it:
a) You can keep the animal focus until your AC is replaced, but can only switch between whatever focus YOU had when they died, and whatever focus THE AC had when it died, if the same focus no switching.
b) If your AC dies within 24 hours of being resummoned then you get no animal focus. If the AC dies within 48 hours then you only get half the bonus.
It might sound harsh, but if players want to just have constant animal powers without an archetype I would prefer they had an archetype to use rather than they had such an obvious loophole to exploit by sacrificing ACs!
Also while I just mentioned archetypes, I would love to see a dragon hunter one, that has some different animal focus's, such as:
Green Dragon - Protection against acid 5, and all attacks which deal damage deal an additional 1d4 acid damage. At level X this increases to 10 resistance and 1d8 damage, at level Y this increases to 20 and 2d6, at level 20 this increases to immunity and 4dd.
(or something like that but actually balanced ;) )
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1 quick note, I would really like to +1 changing the type of bonus bestowed by animal focus.
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Also, two suggestions to help the base class since their class feature is so entwined with a companion:1) An ability that allows the Hunter to replace their animal companion in half the time would be nice since they are crippled without them.
2) And/or some type of boon that allows them a quick replacement or stand in like allowing them to act like an Inquisitor when their animal companion is down; Solo Tactics w/o animal companion and they get the constant Animal Focus until the companion comes back.
I like the idea of getting the hunter back on their feet, but the second part of this leads me to worry about people killing their ACs so that they can change from animal focusing for minutes/level to having an always on animal focus changeable at will. Or not even killing them but playing it VERY fast and loose with their ACs safety. If you were adding something like this I would add two conditionals to it:
a) You can keep the animal focus until your AC is replaced, but can only switch between whatever focus YOU had when they died, and whatever focus THE AC had when it died, if the same focus no switching.
b) If your AC dies within 24 hours of being resummoned then you get no animal focus. If the AC dies within 48 hours then you only get half the bonus.
It might sound harsh, but if players want to just have constant animal powers without an archetype I would prefer they had an archetype to use rather than they had such an obvious loophole to exploit by sacrificing ACs!
Also while I just mentioned archetypes, I would love to see a dragon hunter one, that has some different animal focus's, such as:
Green Dragon - Protection against acid 5, and all attacks which deal damage deal an additional 1d4 acid damage. At level X this increases to 10 resistance and 1d8 damage, at level Y this increases to 20 and 2d6, at level 20 this increases to immunity...
Keep in mind that when you lose your animal companion, you're losing over half of your class. As it stands right now, without an animal companion you're crippled. If someone wants to kill their animal companion to get a small boon but lose out on all the teamwork feats and any other bonus from having an animal companion... they're basically shooting themselves in the foot.
Keep the big picture in mind. It's not really "powering up" the Hunter if the animal companion dies. It's making sure they're not worthless. Constant on animal focus < Full Animal Companion able to utilize teamwork feats. These are not equivalent.
Either way, the devs will need to address this issue. As I said before, Summoner is still THE pet class as they have other ways to shore up the loss of their Eidolon (summoner monster super duration). The quick and dirty solution to this is give Hunter's summon nature's ally in the same vein; standard action to use, 1 minute per level. Can't use if Animal Companion is alive, not disabled, controlled, etc.
Otherwise, when the AC goes down, the Hunter is a crippled, extremely weak Druid.
Keep in mind that when you lose your animal companion, you're losing over half of your class. As it stands right now, without an animal companion you're crippled. If someone wants to kill their animal companion to get a small boon but lose out on all the teamwork feats and any other bonus from having an animal companion... they're basically shooting themselves in the foot.
That's also why the druid and ranger are still coming out on top over this hybrid. (I'd really love to know the thinking behind why they thought this class combo was needed, desired, or what it could accomplish that cannot already be with ranger, druid, cavalier, witch or summoner and their archetypes. Or even a cleric with the animal domain. I get that the idea is that "this is class about animal bond" but unfortunately animals are not immortal and thus the class cries out for jerk GMs to target them).
Druids and rangers with animal companions are not severely compromised if they lose their animal companions; they can still fight, cast, use skills, use other hunting/tracking abilities and do all of the above often better than the hunter can. At the same time, the hunter is only minorly and moderately better with an animal companion than a druid or, say, a beastmaster ranger. And while these classes don't have the animal focus, the animal companions can be buffed by spells for equal or longer duration anyway (sure, same goes for hunter). If animal focus gave something actually cool and different than just some skill bonuses and a few minor attribute increases (which don't stack with spells like bull's strength) then it would be fine, but it just doesn't provide much of what you can't get some other way.
Keep the big picture in mind. It's not really "powering up" the Hunter if the animal companion dies. It's making sure they're not worthless. Constant on animal focus < Full Animal Companion able to utilize teamwork feats. These are not equivalent.
I think you could also be sure that if someone is trying "exploit" a rapid regain of AC, you could just stipulate that if the Hunter willingly kills her animal companion for her personal gain, she loses her class features.
Either way, the devs will need to address this issue. As I said before, Summoner is still THE pet class as they have other ways to shore up the loss of their Eidolon (summoner monster super duration). The quick and dirty solution to this is give Hunter's summon nature's ally in the same vein; standard action to use, 1 minute per level. Can't use if Animal Companion is alive, not disabled, controlled, etc.
Otherwise, when the AC goes down, the Hunter is a crippled, extremely weak Druid.
Even if they just got the druid's summon nature's ally spontaneous casting option, that might be something.
Keep in mind that when you lose your animal companion, you're losing over half of your class. As it stands right now, without an animal companion you're crippled. If someone wants to kill their animal companion to get a small boon but lose out on all the teamwork feats and any other bonus from having an animal companion... they're basically shooting themselves in the foot.That's also why the druid and ranger are still coming out on top over this hybrid. (I'd really love to know the thinking behind why they thought this class combo was needed, desired, or what it could accomplish that cannot already be with ranger, druid, cavalier, witch or summoner and their archetypes. Or even a cleric with the animal domain. I get that the idea is that "this is class about animal bond" but unfortunately animals are not immortal and thus the class cries out for jerk GMs to target them).
Druids and rangers with animal companions are not severely compromised if they lose their animal companions; they can still fight, cast, use skills, use other hunting/tracking abilities and do all of the above often better than the hunter can. At the same time, the hunter is only minorly and moderately better with an animal companion than a druid or, say, a beastmaster ranger. And while these classes don't have the animal focus, the animal companions can be buffed by spells for equal or longer duration anyway (sure, same goes for hunter). If animal focus gave something actually cool and different than just some skill bonuses and a few minor attribute increases (which don't stack with spells like bull's strength) then it would be fine, but it just doesn't provide much of what you can't get some other way.
I think you could also be...
Keep the big picture in mind. It's not really "powering up" the Hunter if the animal companion dies. It's making sure they're not worthless. Constant on animal focus < Full Animal Companion able to utilize teamwork feats. These are not equivalent.
Agreed. We should consider implications of if the animal is killed on purpose. Maybe treat it Paladin style; if a Hunter willingly kills their animal companion or delivers a coup-de-grace, and the animal is not under any enemy enchantments, they must atone (as a Paladin would need to). That or lose the class feature for a week/month (3 PFS sessions?). It's hard to say for sure.
The more we travel down this rabbit hole, the more problems suddenly arise.
Asking earnestly though, do we really think people who take this class would really kill their animal companion if they were given the opportunity to use the boon freely until they were replaced? My guess is no.. but there are others options to reduce the likelihood of this scenario. It could be a standard action (rather than a free action) to switch the style for the Hunter while the companion is gone.
All I know, is I would never want to kill my big kitty companion friend. Or my awesome crocodile. /shrug