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Hey, this came up in another thread that was really kinda unrelated. So I'm making a new thread to talk about this particular question:
Does being tied up make you helpless?
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping,
paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
A creature capable of spellcasting that is bound
by this spell must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the
spell’s level to cast a spell.
Here's why:
A. The target does become bound as per the text, and thus should gain the helpless condition on top of whatever else it gains (Such as the pinned condition). However, this would mean that being pinned also makes you helpless, which shouldn't be.
B. If being bound by rope doesn't qualify as being bound for the helpless condition, what does qualify then? The helpless condition was written for the CRB, and so whatever they intended would be found there. The things that mention being bound or bind as a way to describe a creature are: Spells such as binding (which literally bounds the target in some cases), elemental/planar binding (The bound summon serves you), Magic circle against evil, Dimensional Shackles, Pinned, manacles, and Iron bands of binding.
C. If being bound doesn't make you helpless, what exactly do manacles do again?
D. Being tied up in ropes requires a full minute to escape using the escape artist skill. It's not a "hey, he's gonna attack me, I'm gonna escape and run away first!" type ordeal.
So yeah... Does being tied up make you helpless in the RAW?
Unless, for some bizarre reason, being "bound" by rope isn't the same as "bound" (there's no rule definition for bound, so plain old English will have to suffice), I can't fathom how being tied-up would not make you helpless.
A. The target does become bound as per the text, and thus should gain the helpless condition on top of whatever else it gains (Such as the pinned condition). However, this would mean that being pinned also makes you helpless, which shouldn't be.
How do you figure that being pinned would make you helpless, btw?
Manacles do not make you helpless, and neither does being wrapped up in rope.
What makes you helpless is when you are bound in a way that doesn't just hinder the way in which you move (forcing small steps because your ankles are chained together, or requiring that you roll around to get anywhere because your basically cocooned in rop), it makes it absolutely impossible for you to move meaningfully - such as being strapped down to a bed, chained to a wall, or wrapped up in rope and anchored in place.
*emphasis mine
Being wrapped up in rope does not make you helpless, but being wrapped up in rope does? I don't follow.
By far the most common definiteion of "bound" is "Restricted from moving" and by far the most common method referred to by that is being tied up.
As there is no rules definition for "bound" plain English works just fine. If you're bound by ropes, you're bound (and helpless). Simple enough.
My question is how bound does one have to be before they are 'helpless'. I am going to assume that the legs are either bound, or made a nonfactor (such as a person tied to a tree by their arms and torso).
This comes from the fact that there are plenty of actions that could be used without free arms. Movement is obvious, but you could also attack if you used kicks or maybe if you had a bite attack. Also, what about spells without somatic components? In any of these cases, being tied up might be a mild inconvenience.
Again, I kind of want a definition of being "tied up" for things like this. I'd imagine that someone who was simply had their hands tied behind their back and their legs tied together could possibly wiggle a bit at least to face a different direction.
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Well, being tied up does mention being pinned, so we could start there:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
The differences between paralyzed and pinned... I think we all assume that you cannot attack while pinned? Anyways, from what I understand you cannot use your hands or feat to the point that all you can do is try to escape. If it wasn't for that, you might as well be considered having a strength of 0 and dexterity of 0. Pinned takes away 4 AC, while paralyzed takes away 5 AC (with a dex score of 10), but if dexterity was already lower than 10, pinned starts to take more AC away than paralyzed. Purely mental spells are harder to cast while pinned than when paralyzed, although there's absolutely no way to aim said spell when paralyzed.
I think being tied up would be inbetween those two.
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
So, it would appear being tied up just effectively leaves you with the pinned condition. However being pinned does not make you helpless. In fact, you can attempt to escape from being tied up can you not?
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Helpless seems to imply being completely unable to act. Simply being tied up probably does not qualify (as in mid-battle you cannot tie them up enough to render them helpless). However, I would say if you spend a sufficient amount of time to tie them up in such a way that there whole body is rendered immobile (note this is not what the normal tie condition implies) then you could probably consider them helpless.
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So, we should just ignore the word "bound" in the helpless condition as a qualifier?
I can understand the bolded part as defining what it does, but at the same time that doesn't mean thats all it can do. Helpless itself is a good instance of this. The helpless condition mentions a lot of what it does, but you have to reference elsewhere to know that it also makes them flatfooted:
A helpless character is also flat-footed.
My argument is that since it mentions being bound, you would reference what uses the bound qualifier. That would lead you to the helpless condition.
While I can see the wisdom in making it a "out of combat tying" thing, there's no rules for it and I really really want to use this (but not abuse it) for PFS.
So, we should just ignore the word "bound" in the helpless condition as a qualifier?
No, I'm just saying that bound doesn't equal the tied up condition which can be used with the grapple maneuver.
I don't think the rules here are particularly clear because there's no real explanation what bound specifies.
In regards to some earlier comments about being bound and helpless, pinned would also render helpless if this was the case. But being pinned tells you precisely what it does, which does not indicate helplessness. Else wouldn't the writers have said you're helpless and also...
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If the writers were consistent, they would have told you in the same place that your helpless and flatfooted in the same place. The interpretation is that is says you are bound, and therefore helpless (because bound people are helpless).
Do manacles make people helpless? All they say is that they make a person "bound". If it doesn't make them helpless, then what exactly do they do?
So there are three-four camps of people on this:
1. Being pinned or tied up makes you helpless
2. Being tied up makes you helpless, but not pinned
3. Neither being tied up or pinned makes you helpless
4. Being tied up as a combat maneuver doesn't make you helpless, but a sufficient amount of time spent in the tying does. Being pinned still doesn't make you helpless.
Personally, I'm not entirely comfortable with making a distinction between "tied up" and "more tied up", especially since there's really no reason you can't tie a creature up such as to render it immobile in a very short amount of time.
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No FAQ necessary as this is entirely dependant upon the individual situation and use of GM adjudication.
One can certainly be bound with rope and be helpless (hog-tied and firmly secured to an immovable object). While in other situations, someone can be bound and not considered helpless (bind the hands but he can still walk around—even if on a lead, he's not helpless).
No FAQ necessary as this is entirely dependant upon the individual situation and use of GM adjudication.
One can certainly be bound with rope and be helpless (hog-tied and firmly secured to an immovable object). While in other situations, someone can be bound and not considered helpless (bind the hands but he can still walk around—even if on a lead, he's not helpless).
So which one is the "tie up" combat maneuver? Or do you get to choose?
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No FAQ necessary as this is entirely dependent upon the individual situation and use of GM adjudication.
It kinda is if you want to use it in PFS and want to avoid table variation. Your right that there are situations where GM's adjudication is the best way to go (for the way too corner cases), but I want to know about the very specific case of tying someone up using the Tie Up grapple maintain in the middle of combat. GM Adjudication seems to be inconsistent on this point.
However, at the same time, I know developers are busy people, and I'd rather them work on the mounted combat system than this. But with everyone responding I plan to print this thread out and have in my character notebook so that I can *show* the GM where people are coming from and allow him to make a educated decision before a game. That way I'll know if I should play that character with that GM.
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This topic and topics related to this one have come up many times before.
I feel the real issue here is Helpless = Coup de grace.
This causes people not in favor to panic and argue against.
People in favor get excited and can't wait to use it next session ASAP.
I think if people would realize that Condition: Helpless isn't really all that helpless, most people would agree that Pinned = Helpless.
Consider the following:
You can still attack while pinned or tied up.
All it says beyond the specific limitations of attacking while grappled is-
"A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions."
"A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take."
That literally says nothing specific. You can even take a move action you just cannot move.
The fact that the Devs don't specify what "bound" means is a good thing IMO because it allows flexibility while still being able to satisfy any condition it needs to in any situation involved with Grapple.
I totally agree that No FAQ required is satisfactory.
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But with everyone responding I plan to print this thread out and have in my character notebook so that I can *show* the GM where people are coming from and allow him to make a educated decision before a game. That way I'll know if I should play that character with that GM.
I think that is very good way to do it. I hope that works out for you and the GM.
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Am I the only one here who needs an example involving a succubus in a grapple?
Ahem.
Anyway, it's pretty much a case-by-case situation, but for me being tied up is insufficient to give the helpless condition. Being tied up and further tied to an immovable object would do the job, though. So, the person in handcuffs isn't helpless, but the person tied to the dark altar is. The person bound hand and feet who can still wriggle to defend themselves isn't, but the person manacled to the dungeon wall hand and feet is.
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Am I the only one here who needs an example involving a succubus in a grapple?
Ahem.
I could use one too. For purpose of clarity of course.....
Personally, I'd go with whatever definition the person doing the tying up intends. If they want to tie you up just to restrict movement a bit and stop you separating your hands and feet, then it's that. If they want to tie you up to the point of immobility, then it's that. The question of whether or not the victim is anchored to a fixed point also needs to be raised.
I wouldn't want to pin a specific game rule on just being "tied up" as there's multiple possibilities within that.
However, in the spirit of escapology, I'd likely allow some remote chance of getting free (at least for someone I believed to be skilled enough), with a modifier depending on how securely tied the victim was.
Manacles do not make you helpless, and neither does being wrapped up in rope.
What makes you helpless is when you are bound in a way that doesn't just hinder the way in which you move (forcing small steps because your ankles are chained together, or requiring that you roll around to get anywhere because your basically cocooned in rop), it makes it absolutely impossible for you to move meaningfully - such as being strapped down to a bed, chained to a wall, or wrapped up in rope and anchored in place.
*emphasis mine
Being wrapped up in rope does not make you helpless, but being wrapped up in rope does? I don't follow.
Your emphasis changed to my own.
There is s a big difference between having your hands tied together behind your back and your arms wrapped in rope so that you can't get your hands in front of you, but your legs are unbound and nothing is preventing you from rolling or "inch worming" across the floor and being tied in a way that actually stops you from moving at all - like being wrapped up in the ropes which are binding you to a chair which is bolted to the floor.
I missed the bit about being anchored.
If you specify while using a combat maneuver to tie up an opponent that you're binding their feet and legs as well? Would this be helpless?
What if you used a second maneuver to tie a self tightening noose if the opponent tried to struggle? How many actions would it take to go from 'pinned' to 'tied up and helpless'?
Claxon incorrectly said being helpless means you can't take actions.
It seems clear by the language of all the quotes used here that tied up and pinned are both helpless conditions. Nowhere does it say you can't take actions if helpless but still conscious. Although you may need to break free to effectively take some types of actions.
@Frodoof9Fungers
Remember this...
Tie Up
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
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Yeah, I know the rules there, that's why I left it ambiguous, I didn't say that there *always* is a way free. Now if you had a spell that increased your CMB or escape artist checks, then eh.
I was quoting from the Escape Artist skill:
Making an Escape Artist check to escape from rope bindings, manacles, or other restraints (except a grappler) requires 1 minute of work. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a full-round action. Escaping from a grapple or pin is a standard action. Squeezing through a tight space takes at least 1 minute, maybe longer, depending on how long the space is.
I'm a little irked that the original post doesn't mention the argument from grapple rules. I can't FAQ this.
Claxon incorrectly said being helpless means you can't take actions.
It seems clear by the language of all the quotes used here that tied up and pinned are both helpless conditions. Nowhere does it say you can't take actions if helpless but still conscious. Although you may need to break free to effectively take some types of actions.
Incorrect. I didn't say being helpless doesn't mean you can't take action.
Rather, I said:
Helpless seems to imply being completely unable to act.This is because the conditions under which you gain the helpless condition,
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
would render you unable to take any physical actions with some ambiguity in regard to what "bound" and "completely at an opponent's mercy" mean.
My point is, being helpless is the result of being unable to act.
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Held and Paralyzed still allow actions, just purely mental ones so there are several conditions under helpless which allow actions.
Spell-like Abilities, Supernatural Abilities and Spells without components (like a Silent Dimension Door) can all be used while held or paralyzed. During one campaign my Summoner was shackled to a wall and starting summoning monsters.
Sleep and Unconscious plus Daze, Stun and Nauseous all limit the actions you can take or if you can take any, but I think Claxon is right, in effect helpless is not a condition in and of itself but more a result of other conditions.
This suggests that being tied up is being tied up, but you would have to do something that specifies helpless to make someone helpless, like saying I tie him up in combat he is now pinned (as per tie up) and I go grapple something else.
Which argument? I tried :(, but at the same time I'm not really here for a FAQ, just what people think so I can print it out. I'd rather the game developers work on more important things.
Ack, sorry, I misunderstood the purpose of the post. Don't mind me.
Looks like the rest of the thread presented the grappling context already, so I won't repeat it; just try a CTRL+F and it should turn up.
Held and Paralyzed still allow actions, just purely mental ones so there are several conditions under helpless which allow actions.
Spell-like Abilities, Supernatural Abilities and Spells without components (like a Silent Dimension Door) can all be used while held or paralyzed. During one campaign my Summoner was shackled to a wall and starting summoning monsters.
Sleep and Unconscious plus Daze, Stun and Nauseous all limit the actions you can take or if you can take any, but I think Claxon is right, in effect helpless is not a condition in and of itself but more a result of other conditions.
This suggests that being tied up is being tied up, but you would have to do something that specifies helpless to make someone helpless, like saying I tie him up in combat he is now pinned (as per tie up) and I go grapple something else.
I was generalizing a bit, but yes. Helpless can allow for mental actions, but pretty much precludes being able to take any physical actions. I did state that in my previous post, but I didn't repeat it in my final line of that last post.
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And 99% of the time this assumption would be valid. But we have Gamemasters for a reason. No amount of physically binding, tying, or anchoring to adamantine chairs which in turn are anchored to the castle bedrock while straight-jacketed is ever going to render my MT "or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy" i.e helpless in most senses of the word including the game term definition it would seem (at least until you add antimagic to the mix or render her mentally incapacitated).
What exactly are you saying?
It appears that if you played for several GM's (at least on this thread) you would be ruled "completely at an opponents mercy" when tied up.Maybe I have misunderstood you.
And 99% of the time this assumption would be valid. But we have Gamemasters for a reason. No amount of physically binding, tying, or anchoring to adamantine chairs which in turn are anchored to the castle bedrock while straight-jacketed is ever going to render my MT "or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy" i.e helpless in most senses of the word including the game term definition it would seem (at least until you add antimagic to the mix or render her mentally incapacitated).
The fact remains that you are helpless in that scenario. You have no way to physically defend yourself there. You cannot move out of the way of blows, hence why a coup de grace would work.
Helpless doesn't necessarily mean "You are incapable of taking any action whatsoever even on your turn". But besides Still/Silent Immediate Action abilities, you are helpless to defend yourself.
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Helpless doesn't necessarily mean "You are incapable of taking any action whatsoever even on your turn". But besides Still/Silent Immediate Action abilities, you are helpless to defend yourself.
Adding to Rynjin's comments-
Consider the following.Condition: Helpless by itself contains no wording that would interfere with action economy at all.
CRB wrote:
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
Assuming my character is not unconscious or paralyzed; by RAW my character could still attack(on my turn of course) with a light weapon against someone who is performing a coup de grace on my helpless character.
This is consistent with the grappled condition. Obviously all penalties would still apply.
If you could find that game definition I would be in total agreement with you.
You just quoted it in your last post.
Incapable of moving AND effectively immobile.
If you try to tell me "I don't need to be mobile/able to move to attack" I will internet slap you.
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Yeah... I don't believe there is, though there could be in some random spell or effect that mentions "If their dex hits zero they are unable to physically act".
So, everyone seems to say that manacles don't make you helpless. Anyone care to explain what they do then? I think thats a point that could have a few peoples ideas on.