Again with absolute arguments.I'm making economic and psychological arguments about why it is bad. Why it is a bad deal. And why it would cause conflicts.
A regular hot dog from an average vendor that costs $100 dollars is a bad deal. It's absolutely a bad deal. Dismissing arguments against that by saying "you're making an absolute argument" does not somehow get you "win" points and make it less of an awful, awful deal.
Consume Items, as-is, is certainly a really, really bad ability. I have gone over several reasons for this. Rather than talk about the reasons I have given, YOU are the one that has dismissed my arguments. I have addressed yours.
Oh, and by the way, I did talk about stuff a page or two ago and make suggestions. Maybe before you accuse people of crap you should read the thread.
So cut the hoity toity sophistry. It is not helpful.
If you think its that bad, don't just say "This is bad" and then harass anyone who disagrees. Help fix it.Again, I went over exactly why it is bad. I discussed specific reasons why it is bad.
Personally I see it a a "Little bit" expensive, but then again I think it will seldom be overtly needed.
I'd like it better if instead of obliterating an item, the Arcanist just "drained it"
Syphon charges off something with charges, or suppress a magic item for X amount of time.
Which is completely re-writing the ability. In other words, you are saying it is more than a "little bit" expensive. You are saying it so expensive that it needs to be radically changed into something that has little to no long-term cost. Merely a short-term opportunity cost.
So don't give me crap about what I am saying when you agree. And don't act like I am not giving reasons and details when I am.
"Oh, we don't need this +2 Dwarven Urgosh! Cause those things are horribad...
Well, I think it is a sort of cool and thematically appropriate ability to have even if it is situational.
Perhaps we should not complain about it overmuch and just not consider it a huge factor in how the arcanist balances with other classes.
But if you are worried that it is too weak to ever choose then I guess it is just like the blasts in that regard.
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Well, I think it is a sort of cool and thematically appropriate ability to have even if it is situational.
Perhaps we should not complain about it overmuch and just not consider it a huge factor in how the arcanist balances with other classes.
But if you are worried that it is too weak to ever choose then I guess it is just like the blasts in that regard.
It's not just too weak to ever choose.
1. It's very expensive for a tiny bit of benefit.
2. It encourages inter-party conflict. One that has permanent consequences since you can't get destroyed loot back.
3. BUYING RUNESTONES is cheaper in a matter of days. This costs no resources relatively, since you are already spending money either way.
4. It's a trap because it LOOKS like a good idea to some players. This makes the above issues even worse.
In comparison, none of the other weak abilities are nearly as bad. The blasts are far too weak. They don't make conflict, however, and they don't cost money. So I think it is a pretty objective statement to say none of the other abilities are as bad. The worst of the other ones just look attractive to some players and aren't worth the cost. But they don't have the inter-party or economic problems.
Gonna disagree with you here. Draining wands and staffs seems like something I would do sometimes.
I will also note that the description says: "The arcanist can consume the power of potions, scrolls, staves, and wands, using them to fill her arcane reservoir." so no dumb magic swords are getting disenchanted here.
Most of this usage would probably come out of magic items that the arcanist is making herself or with charges on a staff that she has empowered with her own spells.
Consume Magic Items (Su): [snip]Far too long and complicated of an ability. Needs to be simplified. Also,
If the spellcraft check succeeds by 10 or more an additional charge is drained for every 10 the check succeeds. Any points gained in addition to the maximum allowed in an Arcanist's Reservoir are wasted.
This has the possibility of punishing a player for rolling well, something you don't want to happen. Say the arcanist is draining a wand of invisibility and only has room in her pool to recover 2 points. If the player succeeds on the check by 10, then extra charges are drained for no gain.
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There should be an exploit to recharge or enhance magic items. Maybe even creating temporary ones.
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I recently played an arcanist in PFS, and at various times I found myself longing for various aspects of wizards and sorcerers, even while enjoying my own class features. It really felt like there was sufficient "tension" that there's still a decision to be made as to whether one wants to play an arcanist, a wizard, or a sorcerer. None of them felt obsoleted.
My personal perception on this matter, based purely upon what is the most game mechanically strong options:
Disclaimer: Clearly concept based decisions, such as a Sorcerer with a particular bloodline, is a perfectly valid choose.
Best choice for spell DCs: In the long game, the decision is fairly balanced here.
Sorcerer has the best constant DC boost in the form of Arcane, Fey, and Pitborn bloodlines. While any character with sufficient level and Cha can benefit from the Arcane Eldritch Heritage feats, a Sorcerer focused on enchantment pulls ahead with the Fey or Pitborn bloodline and Arcane Eldritch Heritage feats. (not to mention if you are a Kitsune on top of this)
Arcanist remains competitive in the DC arena though, as they can also benefit from Arcane Eldritch Heritage feats as well as combine that boost with their potent magic exploit when they feel the boost is needed.
Wizards have the best effective DC potential with the Void school, but it is also the most difficult to use. Slapping someone in the face with a -10 to all saving throws for a round at 20th level (no save, no SR, eat it have a nice day) and following that with a quickened spell all but guarantees a failed save. But having to use that quickened spell significantly devalues the effect. It is an extremely potent "game over" maneuver though.
All in all, I view things as relatively balanced on spell DC issues.
Best choice for direct damage: Crossblooded Orc/Dragon Sorcerer, hands down, no competition. Given everything sacrificed by choosing the Crossblooded archetype though, I consider this a fair domain for Sorcerers to dominate in.
Following this, the Arcanist has better general potential by using potent magic to gain +2 caster level when desired. Evoker Wizard's remain relatively competitive to the Arcanist though, with their constant + 1/2 level damage bonus for evocation spells.
[Best choice for spell versatility[/b]: All 3 options have the potential to be equally valid.
Sorcerers with the favored class bonus of humans actually end up with quite a few spells of each level known (at least 6 spells known of each level by 20th level). Combined with their huge number of castings per day, this really isn't too restrictive if you vary your types of spells known each level.
Wizards clearly have the most absolute versatility, but must exercise good judgement, luck, and/or leave slots unprepared to get full mileage of that versatility.
Arcanists have the best and worse of both the above. Amazing absolute versatility, tempered by a similar need to exercise good foresight. Good selections will allow you to enjoy the best of both worlds. Poor selections will leave you feeling like a tragic mistake was made.
All things considered, I see them relatively equal in potential (key word) on versatility.
What concerns me about Arcanist the most is two things:
1). Sorcerers. Again mechanically speaking, if you are not playing a Crossblooded face melter or a DC enchanter, Arcanist is strictly superior in almost every way. Int casting > Cha casting, ability to swap spells known, grossly powerful exploits, ect. All they lose on is how many spell casts they get, which is not really a big deal to me because they still get plenty per day. Just how many encounters do you run per session is that is not enough?
2). Immediate action counterspells, effectively at will. I probably sound like a broken record, but that is incredibly strong. Arcanists will effectively dominate any caster vs. caster encounter if this makes it to play. Sometime later when I have time, I will tell the story of how our 18th level playtest went with our Arcanist vs. Karzoug in Rise of the Runelords.
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Well, I think it is a sort of cool and thematically appropriate ability to have even if it is situational.
Perhaps we should not complain about it overmuch and just not consider it a huge factor in how the arcanist balances with other classes.
But if you are worried that it is too weak to ever choose then I guess it is just like the blasts in that regard.
It's not just too weak to ever choose.
1. It's very expensive for a tiny bit of benefit.
2. It encourages inter-party conflict. One that has permanent consequences since you can't get destroyed loot back.
3. BUYING RUNESTONES is cheaper in a matter of days. This costs no resources relatively, since you are already spending money either way.
4. It's a trap because it LOOKS like a good idea to some players. This makes the above issues even worse.
In comparison, none of the other weak abilities are nearly as bad. The blasts are far too weak. They don't make conflict, however, and they don't cost money. So I think it is a pretty objective statement to say none of the other abilities are as bad. The worst of the other ones just look attractive to some players and aren't worth the cost. But they don't have the inter-party or economic problems.
Why would it encourage interparty conflict any more than any other magic item would? If the party's loot rules decide that an arcanist is awarded a potion of a level 3 spell, what do they care what he does with it? He can drink it or he can use it for his arcane reservoir, why would they care?
A regular hot dog from an average vendor that costs $100 dollars is a bad deal. It's absolutely a bad deal.
If you've got a wad of $5,000 dollars in your pocket and he's the only source of food and water within 3 days of walking in any direction (and you have no way of calling for help to get to civilization sooner), it's a deal that just might save your life. The hot dog vendor massively overcharging a desperate rich guy is being a bit of a jerk though.
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2). Immediate action counterspells, effectively at will. I probably sound like a broken record, but that is incredibly strong. Arcanists will effectively dominate any caster vs. caster encounter if this makes it to play. Sometime later when I have time, I will tell the story of how our 18th level playtest went with our Arcanist vs. Karzoug in Rise of the Runelords.
Have been saying this like a broken record also. Even at 10th level this class will effectively shut another caster down. And to boot, the Arcanist can do this, no V/S/M.
1). Sorcerers. Again mechanically speaking, if you are not playing a Crossblooded face melter or a DC enchanter, Arcanist is strictly superior in almost every way. Int casting > Cha casting, ability to swap spells known, grossly powerful exploits, ect. All they lose on is how many spell casts they get, which is not really a big deal to me because they still get plenty per day. Just how many encounters do you run per session is that is not enough?2). Immediate action counterspells, effectively at will. I probably sound like a broken record, but that is incredibly strong. Arcanists will effectively dominate any caster vs. caster encounter if this makes it to play. Sometime later when I have time, I will tell the story of how our 18th level playtest went with our Arcanist vs. Karzoug in Rise of the Runelords.
1] Kids keep saying that but I love the ability to use spells with impunity and I frankly think people who say "number of spells don't matter" are people who are playing sorcerors like wizards and missing the point. Summon monster every fight (Probably twice). Carry scrolls to solve situational problems.
2] Yep. That counterspelling is pretty damn good. It would not be the end of the world of that was nerfed by just a tad (maybe requiring more arcane pool points for dispelling spells from more powerful casters, for example), but it is really one of the things that makes the class even playable relative to the wizard, in my opinion (cuz fewer spells per day and spells readied). Maybe nerf this and power up many other exploits?
A regular hot dog from an average vendor that costs $100 dollars is a bad deal. It's absolutely a bad deal.If you've got a wad of $5,000 dollars in your pocket and he's the only source of food and water within 3 days of walking in any direction (and you have no way of calling for help to get to civilization sooner), it's a deal that just might save your life. The hot dog vendor massively overcharging a desperate rich guy is being a bit of a jerk though.
I dunno man, if it's the only food in 3 days walking, those hot dogs might be the only source of food available to him, too, and maybe some others around. That food 3 days away might be 7 days from any OTHER source of food. In the low-food world here, anything to eat is a valuable commodity. Can you really be surprised the price is so high?
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1] Kids keep saying that but I love the ability to use spells with impunity and I frankly think people who say "number of spells don't matter" are people who are playing sorcerors like wizards and missing the point. Summon monster every fight (Probably twice). Carry scrolls to solve situational problems.
Please bear in mind that at no point did I say "number of spells don't matter". They do matter. But I strongly believe the Arcanist has enough of them per day (same as a base Wizard) after their Int bonus that it will be more than sufficient unless you are just hammering away at the world's deepest dungeon with no rest.
Who the heck needs summon monster and scrolls when you can just Gorgon Win (trademarked!) for an hour at a time with this class?
1] Kids keep saying that but I love the ability to use spells with impunity and I frankly think people who say "number of spells don't matter" are people who are playing sorcerors like wizards and missing the point. Summon monster every fight (Probably twice). Carry scrolls to solve situational problems.Please bear in mind that at no point did I say "number of spells don't matter". They do matter. But I strongly believe the Arcanist has enough of them per day (same as a base Wizard) after their Int bonus that it will be more than sufficient unless you are just hammering away at the world's deepest dungeon with no rest.
Who the heck needs summon monster and scrolls when you can just Gorgon Win (trademarked!) for an hour at a time with this class?
Who plays Generalist wizards, I ask you?
Arcanists have one fewer spell at every level than wizards, get their spells a level later, and have far fewer spells that they can ready. It is hard to leave a level 8 spell slot open when you only have 3 level 8 spells that you can ready per day.
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2). Immediate action counterspells, effectively at will. I probably sound like a broken record, but that is incredibly strong. Arcanists will effectively dominate any caster vs. caster encounter if this makes it to play. Sometime later when I have time, I will tell the story of how our 18th level playtest went with our Arcanist vs. Karzoug in Rise of the Runelords.
I guess I'm missing something, because I don't understand how the Counterspell exploit is overpowered.
First, you have to successfully ID the spell. Yes, this is eventually guaranteed, but not until several levels in. At lower levels, it's hit-and-miss.
Once you ID it, you have to spend both a point AND a spell of sufficient level. Doesn't that make the lower spells per day a bit of an issue?
After you've paid your cost, you then have to make a dispel check, with a DC of 11+CL. Given that the enemy probably has a comparable CL to your own, you're looking at about a 50/50 shot of success.
Sorry, but this doesn't look that strong to me. What am I missing?
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I guess I'm missing something, because I don't understand how the Counterspell exploit is overpowered.
First, you have to successfully ID the spell. Yes, this is eventually guaranteed, but not until several levels in. At lower levels, it's hit-and-miss.
Once you ID it, you have to spend both a point AND a spell of sufficient level. Doesn't that make the lower spells per day a bit of an issue?
After you've paid your cost, you then have to make a dispel check, with a DC of 11+CL. Given that the enemy probably has a comparable CL to your own, you're looking at about a 50/50 shot of success.
Sorry, but this doesn't look that strong to me. What am I missing?
I don't know that it's fair to say you have missed anything. People have different views after all. My main concerns are the mid-later game, so perhaps you haven't considered that as fully as the low game? I'll try to explain my position however.
So, at lower levels, you are correct it is not as effective. At higher levels, around 12+, it can very easily become almost guaranteed success vs. an even level caster, however. Let's use a level 12 example:
You're a 12th level human Arcanist with a 28 Int, who's magic items are a headband of vast intelligence +6, orange prism ioun stone, and otherwordly kimono. You have the following number of spells to cast each day: 7/6/6/6/6/3
You cannot fail to ID any spell at this point, so that becomes moot.
Your dispel check is your character level +5 (+1 CL from the ioun stone, +4 on all caster level checks [which dispelling is] from the kimono). So against an even level caster your DC is 23, and you have a +17 to your roll. You need a 6+. This does not even take into account if you are using the same spell to counter (in which case you need a 1+), later in the game when you have more money and have further bonuses to your caster level checks from other items.
Now while your opponent is likely to also have the ioun stone at that point (making your die roll need a 7+), there is no way to offset the caster level check bonus the kimono and the other later items give. By 15th level, you can afford one or both of the additional items make your die roll needs a 5+ or 2+ for success against even level caster.
Yes, the spell slot cost may make you cringe. But it is a small price to pay in a caster vs caster battle for an immediate auto counterspell each round. This effectively demands your opponent to have a staff of the master or prepare numerous quickened (and most likely far less effective than what you will be targeting him with because of the +4 adjustment) spells just to have a chance to successfully get a spell off.
In a team scenario, all that arcanist needs to do is ready to counter and toss his immediate action counter every turn and a single casting baddie is going to be in a world of hurt.
The concern is greater towards mid and late game than low level. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd sacrifice just about any class feature on another caster for immediate counterspell basically at will. Costs a spell slot, but small price to pay (the AR replenishes when you counter with later exploits, that becomes a non-issue resource). To me, any time I believe that way about an ability, it means it's too good.
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On the other hand, there's the fact that if you were facing a CR 12 wizard, your chance of countering their highest-level spells would be zero.
That's a very good point. The arcanist can never immediate-counterspell the highest-level spells of a wizard/cleric/druid/witch who is either higher level or same-but-odd-numbered-level, or the highest-level spells of a sorcerer/oracle/arcanist of +1 level (even) or higher.
So when the 15th-level arcanist and his party are facing a CR 17 encounter consisting of a 15th level wizard/cleric/druid/witch and some friends, those 8th-level spells aren't getting countered, regardless of CL. And once the enemy wizard has cast his base spell, his specialist spell, and his arcane bond spell (three rounds of uninhibited 8th-level spells), isn't the fight already over?
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On the other hand, there's the fact that if you were facing a CR 12 wizard, your chance of countering their highest-level spells would be zero.
Fair. But by 18th level, the world is once again fair game. We have to look at a class through it's full range, not just how it works at low levels. Using your highest level spells first, while generally a fine strategy, is not always the most effective response either. (Example: disintegrate is your 6th level spell, cone of cold your 5th, and your fighting 4 enemies at once)
It's a somewhat acceptable low-level ability. Not so much high level.
Our Arcanist in our 18th level Rise of the Runelords class test soloed the entire Karzoug room. At one point he had shut Karzoug down so badly with counterspells and spell parry that he was just messing with the guy (time stop to pee at his feet for example). It was so bad from the spell parry spell turning that Karzoug didn't even risk trying to cast a spell anymore for fear that he was going to nuke himself with his own spells and was just trying to get the Arcanist with his glaive...
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Karzoug story
That's a nasty story about Karzoug, but...
How was the arcanist, with the same(ish) number of spells as the enemy wizard, able to counter every spell of a given level AND cast his own spells? Was he only casting lower-level spells or something?
I mean, an 18th-level arcanist has what, two 9th-level spells? Unless your INT is crazy high. A specialist wizard has 3 (again, before INT bonus spells) plus potentially an arcane bond. So even in the Karzoug fight there should have (I haven't seen the statblock, though) been 2 uncounterable 9th-level spells even if the arcanist never casts a 9th-level spell.
At every spell level, the wizard has more, and the extras are basically uncounterable if the wizard "casts from the top". Any high-level spells cast by the arcanist only increase the number of uncounterables, including any cast earlier in the day compared to the BBEG's usually fresh spell complement.
So how was the guy with fewer spells managing to spend those spells to counter while also casting spells of his own?
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Karzoug storyThat's a nasty story about Karzoug, but...
How was the arcanist, with the same(ish) number of spells as the enemy wizard, able to counter every spell of a given level AND cast his own spells? Was he only casting lower-level spells or something?
I mean, an 18th-level arcanist has what, two 9th-level spells? Unless your INT is crazy high. A specialist wizard has 3 (again, before INT bonus spells) plus potentially an arcane bond. So even in the Karzoug fight there should have (I haven't seen the statblock, though) been 2 uncounterable 9th-level spells even if the arcanist never casts a 9th-level spell.
At every spell level, the wizard has more, and the extras are basically uncounterable if the wizard "casts from the top". Any high-level spells cast by the arcanist only increase the number of uncounterables, including any cast earlier in the day compared to the BBEG's usually fresh spell complement.
So how was the guy with fewer spells managing to spend those spells to counter while also casting spells of his own?
In short:
His Int was 34 (17 base, 2 racial, 4 level, 5 tome, 6 headband), so he had 3 9th level spell slots + arcane bond from Arcane Eldritch Heritage. Most importantly, he had spell parry - meaning every time he counterspells successfully the spell countered effects the caster as per the spell turning spell. So he really didn't need to cast his own spells for offense anymore except tactically.
Further, he very appropriately mixed his counterspell exploit with good old fashioned readied greater dispel magic (on which he had a caster level check of +29 to counter with). Karzoug ran out of quicken waaaaaaay faster than the Arcanist went through any of his resources, spell slots included. At that point it was just 1 for 1 Arcanist readied greater dispel beating up Karzoug with his own magic.
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Most importantly, he had spell parry - meaning every time he counterspells successfully the spell countered effects the caster as per the spell turning spell. So he really didn't need to cast his own spells for offense anymore except tactically.
Then might the issue lie more with Spell Parry than with immediate-action counterspells? You did just label it as the "most important" part of the equation, after all.
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Spell Parry is not so bad when you must use a readied action to counter. When you are countering with an immediate action (which is the root problem), Spell Parry becomes very strong (a symptom of the root problem).
Just my opinion.
I'd say the problem is there was no immediate action counterspelling when Spell Parry was first printed. Solution: errata Spell Parry to require a readied action counterspell or mention that the "counterspell" exploit can't be used with feats that modify counterspelling.
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Spell Parry is not so bad when you must use a readied action to counter. When you are countering with an immediate action (which is the root problem), Spell Parry becomes very strong (a symptom of the root problem).
Just my opinion.
In that case, it sounds like neither is a problem on its own, but rather there's only a problem when they combine. As Amaranthine Witch above me suggests, simply adding a clause in the Counterspell exploit saying it doesn't work with Parry Spell (or categorically with feats modifying counterspells) should fix the issue.
Right?
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Spell Parry is not so bad when you must use a readied action to counter. When you are countering with an immediate action (which is the root problem), Spell Parry becomes very strong (a symptom of the root problem).
Just my opinion.
I'd say the problem is there was no immediate action counterspelling when Spell Parry was first printed. Solution: errata Spell Parry to require a readied action counterspell or mention that the "counterspell" exploit can't be used with feats that modify counterspelling.
The counterspell wizard school came out in the same book, so there in fact was. That option is extremely limited though, once per day at 6th level + 1 use/4 levels after. I am not a fan of that immediate counterspell option either for the record.
Even with your suggested change, how do we balance a single BBEG guy vs. a group with an Arcanist if this ability goes in as planned?
There is a lot at play here, and I don't expect everyone to see my point or argue. I have a lot of system mastery though, and will use that knowledge to argue anything that further hurts game mechanic balance.
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Even with your suggested change, how do we balance a single BBEG guy vs. a group with an Arcanist if this ability goes in as planned?
Same way you balance a single BBEG versus a group with a Slumber witch (or any number of other save-or-die options): you stop pretending that a single enemy can be a climactic final fight.
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Am I the only one okay ith this idea of an Arcanist dominating the caster vs. caster arrangement. As it stands it feels more like a Mutually Assured Destruction strategy between casters. You can't counter one another effectively so you hurl spells at one another until something sticks....
If you're using single BBEGs beyond ~7th level, then it is entirely your fault when the Party spanks the BBEG and puts him in time-out for being naughty.
Seriously, diversify you fights and increase the fun. When you are at the levels where Martials are pumping out 200+ damage a round in a full attack, and BBEG Casters are sitting on 200 maybe 300 HP, you need to find some way of letting that caster survive long enough to threaten the party. This is best achieved by simply giving him meat shields in addition to his defenses. Make the party fight something to before reaching the BBEG so the BBEG has a few rounds of casting to threaten the party.
Regarding the late level counterspelling... Would a high level wizard enemy (or analog) not know in advance that they are about to engage someone capable of shutting down casting and prepare lower level quickened spells to "waste" the counterspell? That's what I would do as a wizard...
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Even with your suggested change, how do we balance a single BBEG guy vs. a group with an Arcanist if this ability goes in as planned?Same way you balance a single BBEG versus a group with a Slumber witch (or any number of other save-or-die options): you stop pretending that a single enemy can be a climactic final fight.
A single BBEG has the potential to provide a climatic final fight - the key word here is potential. What determines the truth of that statement depends on your players, their level of system mastery and how much it has been employed, the characters they are playing, and the BBEG himself.
In the best of circumstances, the BBEG will still likely need two or three levels on the PCs. And certainly, for some groups, one enemy will never cut it unless you go far outside your PCs CR threshold.
What does that mean for general play? I'm not entirely sure because groups vary greatly, so take that as you will.
I recently played an arcanist in PFS, and at various times I found myself longing for various aspects of wizards and sorcerers, even while enjoying my own class features. It really felt like there was sufficient "tension" that there's still a decision to be made as to whether one wants to play an arcanist, a wizard, or a sorcerer. None of them felt obsoleted.
Can I ask what aspects you were missing? You've got preparedness and spontaneousity, and easy access to arcane heritage and some goodies of your own.
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A single BBEG has the potential to provide a climatic final fight - the key word here is potential. What determines the truth of that statement depends on your players, their level of system mastery and how much it has been employed, the characters they are playing, and the BBEG himself.
Regardless of all those things you list, it still leaves the possibility of the entire combat being ended by a single d20 roll unless you do one of two things:
1) Ban every save-or-die effect in the game, or2) Have more than one enemy.
I'm guessing that the games we should be aiming for are not the ones where every SoD is banned. Therefore, we're in a position where a single-enemy BBEG is already an encounter that a caster can end with a single (un)lucky die roll. In that kind of situation, the fact that an arcanist can also solo the encounter but slower, well, that's not really worth changing anything over. Take away the counterspell shenanigans and he just casts a persistent hold monster or whatever.
In the best of circumstances, the BBEG will still likely need two or three levels on the PCs. And certainly, for some groups, one enemy will never cut it unless you go far outside your PCs CR threshold.
For a single-enemy BBEG, even "two or three levels on the PCs" means a CR of APL +1-2. Not exactly a boss fight anyway. If he's at-level with the PCs, then you need three of them just to get to CR+2.
I forget where I was going with that last part, but there it is anyway.
A single BBEG has the potential to provide a climatic final fight - the key word here is potential. What determines the truth of that statement depends on your players, their level of system mastery and how much it has been employed, the characters they are playing, and the BBEG himself.Regardless of all those things you list, it still leaves the possibility of the entire combat being ended by a single d20 roll unless you do one of two things:
1) Ban every save-or-die effect in the game, or
2) Have more than one enemy.
I'd like to add a third that actually works quite well:
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Just popping in here to second the Charisma focus that's been mentioned in previous posts. Yes, please, tie more of their DCs into Charisma. Most classes rely on two stats or so, and this would add both a little balance and flavor out of the gate.
In fact, if I had only one vote for a feature, it would pretty much be that.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I recently played an arcanist in PFS, and at various times I found myself longing for various aspects of wizards and sorcerers, even while enjoying my own class features. It really felt like there was sufficient "tension" that there's still a decision to be made as to whether one wants to play an arcanist, a wizard, or a sorcerer. None of them felt obsoleted.Can I ask what aspects you were missing? You've got preparedness and spontaneousity, and easy access to arcane heritage and some goodies of your own.
From the sorcerer side, it sucked not having a bloodline arcana.
From the wizard side, I kept wishing I could bonded-item an unprepared spell out of my spellbook (or have some feat-like bonus from a familiar).Yes, I could have taken Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage (arcane). I had instead spent my feats (two, since I was human) on Spell Focus and Spell Specialization. Had I been a human wizard instead (in PFS), I could have had both a bonded item AND SpellSpec and then still had a feat left over. That's significant.
Wouldn't have minded a school power, either. Or anything usable 3+INT/day. Every time I cast acid splash, I kept remembering when my sorc was 2nd level and I was using elemental ray. Sure, it's irrelevant later, but it sure is nice during the "cantrip-or-crossbow" levels to effectively have your first 7-8 cantrips deal double damage or have your first 7-8 crossbow shots resolve against touch AC and not need to reload.
Basically, the class is far less frontloaded than either of its parent classes, which makes things dicey at low levels.
Just popping in here to second the Charisma focus that's been mentioned in previous posts. Yes, please, tie more of their DCs into Charisma. Most classes rely on two stats or so, and this would add both a little balance and flavor out of the gate.
In fact, if I had only one vote for a feature, it would pretty much be that.
You are literally the Devil. They will need con and dex to survive too, and they are balanced without having a multiple ability dependence problem.
At no point in time (save for the mythical level 20) can they ready more than two of their highest level spells, people. 2!
For reference: that is the number that comes after 1 (the smallest positive integer).
They are weak and all this MAD will kill them forever.
Basically, the class is far less frontloaded than either of its parent classes, which makes things dicey at low levels.
At first levels I just use colorspray or grease mostly myself, then start plinking with a crossbow or using ray of frost/acid splash depending on the target with a backup weapon. I've never used a bloodline blast nor felt like I needed one. Arcane bond itself is only two feats away, unless we get an obtain familiar feat sometime soon.
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** spoiler omitted **
What you described was not the experience we witnessed. Our GM was well prepared too, as he ran this module for our PFS group some months ago.
Arcanist, round 1:
Free Action: uses robe of runes to recall a previously cast shield, gaining a +2 enhancement bonus to his spell DCs for 1 round.
Free Action: spends 1 point of AR to increase next spell's DC by +2.
Move Action: moves on the ground with his base speed 60 ft. (expeditious retreat active) to reach as close to a central point between his enemies as he is able.
Standard Action: casts persistent wish (DC 35) using 2 charges from his staff of the master. attempts to transport every hostile enemy except Krune onto the sun. having will saves of +13, +18, and +20, all of the enemies fail their forced 2 attempts at DC 35 and die horribly.
Free Action: spends 1 point of AR to increase next spell's DC by +2.
Swift Action: casts a quickened mage's disjunction (DC 35) at Karzoug. at +19 Will, Karzoug lucks out and succceeds on the vast majority of rolls for his non-artifact magic items; of note, his ring of freedom of movement, robes of xin-shalast, all of his Con and Int boosting ioun stones, and 4 of his 5 save boosting ioun stones are suppressed for 19 minutes. he is also stripped of all of his buff spells, since he knew we were coming and buffed the hell out of himself in preparation.
Karzoug, round 1:
Move Action: steps behind his throne to use as cover.
Standard Action: tosses a meteor swarm at the party. does some fair damage, but all PCs has 30 fire resistance running and 2 made their saves.
Swift Action: attempts to cast quickened time stop. gets countered by the Arcanist (for those counting our Arcanist has only his arcane bond left for access to 9th level spells)
Rest of the party sits it out at the Arcanists request, who wants to show off. Some healing happens in the background incase it goes poorly.
Arcanist, round 2:
Free Action: verbally accosts Karzoug, claiming his magic is weak and he wonders how such a weakling ever became a Runelord in the first place.
Standard Action: readies a counterspell.
Swift Action: casts a quickened dimensional anchor at Karzoug using 4 charges from his staff of the master.
Free Action: drops his staff of the master.
Move Action: draws a second staff of the master.
Karzoug, round 2:
Free Action: accuses the Arcanist of being an insignificant fool, and says he will savour his prideful death.
Standard Action: knowing that our Arcanist has spell turning active from his arcane sight before it was disjoined, Karzoug casts and area of effect greater dispel magic and succeeds in stripping it.
Swift Action: attempts another quickened time stop, which is successfully countered by the readied action greater dispel magic.
Arcanist, round 3:
Standard Action: readies to counterspell.
Swift Action: casts quickened empowered enervation using 4 charges from his staff of the master at Karzoug. Karzoug gains 4 negative levels. for those keeping track, he is now down -8 to all of his saving throws with his disjoined ioun stones.
Karzoug, round 3:
Standard Action: attempts to cast wish (not sure what effective would have been), but is countered by the readied action greater dispel magic.
Swift Action: completely sick of this guy, attempts to cast a quickened finger of death, which is successfully countered with a 7th level spell slot using the counterspell exploit. spell parry that turns that on to Karzoug, who whiffs his awful save at this point and takes 200 damage to his face.
Arcanist, round 4:
Standard Action: readies yet another counterspell.
Swift Action: casts quickened spell turning using 4 charges from his staff of the master.
Karzoug, round 5:
Standard Action: attempts his last wish spell (not sure what effective would have been) , which is countered with a readied action greater dispel magic.
Swift Action: knowing he is once again spell turned, and can apparently reflect spells with his counters, Karzoug throws out his quickened lightning bolt. it deals 7 points of damage after resistances.
During this whole escapade, the glaive is tossing non-damaging fireballs and managed to slightly heal Karzoug up. At this point, Karzoug made a valiant attempt to dispel that spell turning, dispel his dimensional anchor to flee (even though his morale has him fighting to the death), and when all of this failed from heavy counterspelling, he finally just went in, wounded as hell, with his glaive. After our Arcanist taunted him a few more rounds, he finally let out the final insult of a persistent feeblemind, which he discovered Karzoug immune too. Thinking it was one of his magic items, he used his arcane bond to lose a final mage's disjunction, and tried the feeblemind again, which Karzoug botched the save against with all the suck on him. After that, the Arcanist "allowed" his melee comrades to come in and finish off the drooling and stupified Runelord.
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Just popping in here to second the Charisma focus that's been mentioned in previous posts. Yes, please, tie more of their DCs into Charisma. Most classes rely on two stats or so, and this would add both a little balance and flavor out of the gate.
In fact, if I had only one vote for a feature, it would pretty much be that.
You are literally the Devil. They will need con and dex to survive too, and they are balanced without having a multiple ability dependence problem.
At no point in time (save for the mythical level 20) can they ready more than two of their highest level spells, people. 2!
For reference: that is the number that comes after 1 (the smallest positive integer).
They are weak and all this MAD will kill them forever.
then a cleric who intends to channel must be horribly MAD as well, yeah there's no way that could work.
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Stuff and things
At the end of the day, nothing I suggest is going to be perfect. It also appears you and I hold very different views regarding the strength of an immediate action counterspell. That's all fine though. I am just unsure of what I can say further at this point to convince you of my point of view.
I certainly agree that a one BBEG fight is rough to impossible to pull off for most. But even on SoD spells, few things are as absolute and frustrating (not to mention boring) as getting counterspelled at every turn.
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then a cleric who intends to channel must be horribly MAD as well, yeah there's no way that could work.Just popping in here to second the Charisma focus that's been mentioned in previous posts. Yes, please, tie more of their DCs into Charisma. Most classes rely on two stats or so, and this would add both a little balance and flavor out of the gate.
In fact, if I had only one vote for a feature, it would pretty much be that.
You are literally the Devil. They will need con and dex to survive too, and they are balanced without having a multiple ability dependence problem.
At no point in time (save for the mythical level 20) can they ready more than two of their highest level spells, people. 2!
For reference: that is the number that comes after 1 (the smallest positive integer).
They are weak and all this MAD will kill them forever.
Clerics who intend to channel are MAD though.