Q: Which skills, if any, cannot be used by quadrupeds or by other creatures lacking arms?
I'm asking for my PFS summoner and his quadruped eidolon, but I suppose the question isn't PFS-specific. The APG says, "An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills." Fly requires some method of flights, and Climb requires "both hands," and Sleight of Hand has "Hand" in the name. Disable Device seems like it could go either way, but a quadruped eidolon would probably have a tough time with Craft (calligraphy) or Profession (barrister) as well.
I doubt that there is a problem with climb, it is simply that the rules are written with bipeds in mind.
I know that there is a rogue archetype with a familiar (carnivalist), and one of the things it does involves sleight of hand. So the idea would be that the small ferret would use its mouth to slip the keys off of the guard's belt. *edit: this archetype also allows the use of disable device with pets....so it is weird*
I also know that nosoi (outsider bird things that serve as clerks of the afterlife) can "use medium-sized drawing and writing tools without penalty", which might call into question whether there would normally be a penalty rather than outright barring for a bird like creature.
So, except for disable device (which has serious implications in game), I would imagine that many of the everyday skills might be possible by any creature as long as they have time, patience, and a lack of goblins trying to shank their livers. So as long as it is not something you use in battle, I think you could argue for a fairly wide birth for this.
I would bar profession for things like the some of the service industry though, since the long, tedious process for a dog to balance a plate full of wings and beer on its head would be unacceptable. but otherwise, profession might work for jobs where you could have an untrained scribe or laborer take care of the hand bits, such as lawyer (is it weird that I never heard of the term barrister before?). I mean, how effective a large, tiger like lawyer would be in some jurisdictions is questionable (i.e.-your defense at an inquisition about contacting otherworldly powers), but eidolons can still speak as well as anyone else.
Q: Which skills, if any, cannot be used by quadrupeds or by other creatures lacking arms?
I'm asking for my PFS summoner and his quadruped eidolon, but I suppose the question isn't PFS-specific. The APG says, "An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills." Fly requires some method of flights, and Climb requires "both hands," and Sleight of Hand has "Hand" in the name. Disable Device seems like it could go either way, but a quadruped eidolon would probably have a tough time with Craft (calligraphy) or Profession (barrister) as well.
It matters less as to whether they have arms, as opposed to what is at the end of their limbs. An intelligent raccoon could probably manage most things that a human could, and they are quadrupeds.
Not sure why a quadruped couldn't be a lawyer, assuming it can talk.
on your reply there are dogs that are specifically trained in the serving industry that do balance trays and hold baskets full of food. so profession would not be an issue for an animal companion.
Well, I was more imagining that the dog would balance all of this on its head itself, rather than being set on its head by someone else. I was going for an immediate example of a service job where one deals with people constantly and promptly. Also, I am wondering about the efficiency of such trained animals versus their possible status as simply gimmick mascots.
I also wonder whether I am still underestimating the dogs.... I half expect a link of a dog stacking a dozen glasses on a tray and getting it on its head.
Not sure why a quadruped couldn't be a lawyer, assuming it can talk.
Who would take such a freak seriously? Maybe in a Living Silly campaign, but not in any of the published campaign worlds.
You can't be a lawyer if 1. a client won't hire you and more seriously 2. a Judge doesn't admit you to the bench. and 3. You're not recognised as a person.
You sound great at parties.
Given the existence of catfolk, druids, awakened anthropomorphic animals, and the sheer number of freakish things seen in Golarion, a tiger barrister would barely raise an eyebrow in some places. Though a rakshasa would probably make a better one--so long as they're the ones writing the laws.
Hmm, there's a module idea....
Not sure why a quadruped couldn't be a lawyer, assuming it can talk.
Who would take such a freak seriously? Maybe in a Living Silly campaign, but not in any of the published campaign worlds.
You can't be a lawyer if 1. a client won't hire you and more seriously 2. a Judge doesn't admit you to the bench. and 3. You're not recognised as a person.
You sound great at parties.
Given the existence of catfolk, druids, awakened anthropomorphic animals, and the sheer number of freakish things seen in Golarion, a tiger barrister would barely raise an eyebrow in some places. Though a rakshasa would probably make a better one--so long as they're the ones writing the laws.
Hmm, there's a module idea....
LazarX, you are approaching this a lot like this was real life. Remember, the setting is medieval, which, admittedly had a much more sophisticated legal system than one would imagine, but still not quite that codified.
It would also depend on the region, country, and how cosmopolitan the area was. Areas around magical institutes and some religious centers would be fairly familiar with outsiders through planar binding and such. I am also sure that Cheliax would be much more receptive to an intelligent outsider willing to work within the legal system, no matter the fact that they are nonhumanoid.
Plus, I am unsure how much the ability to interact with the client and judge might interfere with profession(lawyer). I mean, familiarity with legal codes and ability to prepare the a defense/prosecution seem like the main talents there. Combined with letters and a partner to handle the court, I think one could do well.
Hypnotoad... All hail Hypnotoad
Not sure why a quadruped couldn't be a lawyer, assuming it can talk.
Who would take such a freak seriously? Maybe in a Living Silly campaign, but not in any of the published campaign worlds.
You can't be a lawyer if 1. a client won't hire you and more seriously 2. a Judge doesn't admit you to the bench. and 3. You're not recognised as a person.
You sound great at parties.
Given the existence of catfolk, druids, awakened anthropomorphic animals, and the sheer number of freakish things seen in Golarion, a tiger barrister would barely raise an eyebrow in some places. Though a rakshasa would probably make a better one--so long as they're the ones writing the laws.
Hmm, there's a module idea....
LazarX, you are approaching this a lot like this was real life. Remember, the setting is medieval, which, admittedly had a much more sophisticated legal system than one would imagine, but still not quite that codified.
It would also depend on the region, country, and how cosmopolitan the area was. Areas around magical institutes and some religious centers would be fairly familiar with outsiders through planar binding and such. I am also sure that Cheliax would be much more receptive to an intelligent outsider willing to work within the legal system, no matter the fact that they are nonhumanoid.
Plus, I am unsure how much the ability to interact with the client and judge might interfere with profession(lawyer). I mean, familiarity with legal codes and ability to prepare the a defense/prosecution seem like the main talents there. Combined with letters and a partner to handle the court, I think one could do well.
Eh, even IRL if a horse could talk and make a solid legal argument, I'd be totally fine with having said horse be my lawyer, because I'm not... what's the term for racist when your talking about another species? Speciesist?
Not sure why a quadruped couldn't be a lawyer, assuming it can talk.
Who would take such a freak seriously? Maybe in a Living Silly campaign, but not in any of the published campaign worlds.
You can't be a lawyer if 1. a client won't hire you and more seriously 2. a Judge doesn't admit you to the bench. and 3. You're not recognised as a person.
The sphinx outside would like you to answer his riddle.
Eh, even IRL if a horse could talk and make a solid legal argument, I'd be totally fine with having said horse be my lawyer, because I'm not... what's the term for racist when your talking about another species? Speciesist?
Given how loosely the term is used in the system, and the fact that most would judge humans based on nations and specific tribes rather than race (not entirely sure if this is in setting, but in how most GMs would play it?), racist might still work here.
I can't express how thrilled I am that were are really digging in to the Fluffy, Esq. issue.
Just for curiosity's sake, though: Disable Device without arms, yea or nay?
Can the creature in question wield the thieves tools needed to not take the minus for having no tools ? That would be the deciding factor for me.
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Disable Device with some kind of fine manipulator. If it says "as well as a human hand" or has similar text, go for it. If you're a Shetland pony, no dice. Your GM's mileage may vary, and even then some particular devices may not require such fine manipulation. ("Mr. Ed rolls a natural 20 on his Disable Device check. He kicks the cardboard box across the clearing, leaving the glistening apple exposed. The stick that propped up the box falls softly to the earth. 'There, Wilbur, now may I eat it?' asked Mr. Ed.")
Well, I again refer to the familiar of the carnivalist rogue, that can use disable device apparently (the class also uses the term "pet" and has some focus on handle animal too, for more mundane animals).
It would somewhat depend on what device is being disabled though. I mean, with some traps (let's take the most basic of mundane-the snare traps), I could imagine a tiny animal slipping in to gnaw and push some of the parts to prevent it from activating.
But a lock? That seems tricky. I am always a bit iffy with picking locks without proper tools (or at least a hair pin) in the first place, even for those of use gifted with thumbs. One could argue something or other about claws on tiny paws, but I have doubts about how much one should put parts of their body into grinding, twisting metal contraptions.
The carnivalist is a bit . . . special. I'm trying to figure out how a toad can pick a lock or disarm a pressure plate. I mean, a centipede at least conjures pictures of its legs pushing the tumblers just so, but what does the frog do? Hypnotize it? But carnivalists are carnivalists, specialized in training small animals to perform acts of thievery, so let 'em do it. Note that even they have a DC increase of +5, and the inability to use tools for most familiars would hinder them even further, making up for the competence bonus.
Oh! While it might not help with the PFS thing, I think that +5 to the DC might serve as a nice rule of thumb in home games. It means that even for skills where you can normally take 10, an intelligent, handless nonhumanoid would have to put in considerable training and effort. I mean, 15 is the base DC for trained knowledge checks, handle animal, survival used for....surviving, etc, so it seems appropriate that an awakened dog would have to put in the same amount of effort to write something with a pen without messing it up.
Thanks for the help. Skill monkey may be the last bastion of defense against the summoner's complete conquest of party roles, but I'll play it safe and just give the eidolon Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Heal.
LazarX, you are approaching this a lot like this was real life. Remember, the setting is medieval, which, admittedly had a much more sophisticated legal system than one would imagine, but still not quite that codified.
It would also depend on the region, country, and how cosmopolitan the area was. Areas around magical institutes and some religious centers would be fairly familiar with outsiders through planar binding and such. I am also sure that Cheliax would be much more receptive to an intelligent outsider willing to work within the legal system, no matter the fact that they are nonhumanoid.
Plus, I am unsure how much the ability to interact with the client and judge might interfere with profession(lawyer). I mean, familiarity with legal codes and ability to prepare the a defense/prosecution seem like the main talents there. Combined with letters and a partner to handle the court, I think one could do well.
That's a roleplaying restriction on using the skill. Nothing stops an awakened cow from taking Profession(Lawyer). They'd run into problems practicing in some areas, but that's a different matter.
Craft(Blacksmithing) might be impossible for a creature without hands or any ability to properly hold and control tools.
I think Climb was the most interesting example here. If only because the rules doesn't really handle a centaur wanting to climb sheer cliff. Heck, by RAW he climbs FASTER than a human! Whereas technically a lizard can't climb since it doesn't have hands. So that's just weird.
How about a mountain goat?
On the matter of using skills without arms. How much is constant mage hand worth in this matter?