Swashbuckler playtest results lvl 7

[DoomOtter]

So I convinced my DM to allow me to play test one of the new classes in her campaign. After some thought I ultimately decided on the swashbuckler. I don't know if there is a proper way to record a playtest, so sorry if it seems weird

My stats were as follows

Strix Swashbuckler lvl 7

Str 14
Dex 20
con 12
Int 10
Wis 12
cha 14

The feats I chose were extra panache(grit), signature deed(Opportune parry), Signature deed(Riposte), combat reflexes, and improved initiative.

I quickly gained the ire of my DM when nothing she threw at us could hit me, and I slaughtered a couple of her creatures. I must admit I had the four best rolls of my life in a single round though.(20,19,19,19)

Personally I love the class. I was extremely excited to see it, and think it is well done. There were a few problems with it though. I feel extremely limited in weapon selection. I think if you gave the class the ability to use the heavy and light bladed fighter weapon groups it would be a better fit. (one handed only of course.) I think you should also limit the class to using blades. (A swashbuckler could use a pick for example.)

That's all i have for now, seeing as I've only had one encounter with the class so far. I'll give more feedback as I play.

[BigNorseWolf]

Signature deed requires gunslinger level 11.

[Jon Otaguro 428]

I also believe that in addition to the level 11 requirement, you can't take signature deed more than once.

[Dor]

Heh, my bad. I wasn't paying too much attention when I suggested that feat. Regardless, he did have enough panache to do what he did. It wasn't nice.

[Kolokotroni]

PRD wrote:

Signature Deed (Grit)

You are known for performing a particular deed, and can perform it with greater ease.

Prerequisites: Grit class feature, gunslinger level 11th.

Benefit: Pick a deed that you have access to and that you must spend grit to perform. You can perform this deed for 1 fewer grit point (minimum 0). If the amount of grit needed to perform the deed is reduced to 0, you can perform this deed for the normal action cost as long as you have at least 1 grit point.

Both criticisms are correct. You cannot take signature deed at 7th level, and it has no text prescribing it can be taken more then once, so even if you were of the correct level, you couldnt take it for both.

That said, there has been significant talk about making parry and repost 'so long as you have one grit point' abilities. So in some sense the playtest is still valid, its just a test of what would happen if you could always parry and riposte. In that case I could easily see the swashbuckler being very difficult to land a blow on.

[Cheapy]

Wait what? Parry and riposte for no cost? Where did Stephen say that?

[Dor]

Kolokotroni wrote:

That said, there has been significant talk about making parry and repost 'so long as you have one grit point' abilities. So in some sense the playtest is still valid, its just a test of what would happen if you could always parry and riposte. In that case I could easily see the swashbuckler being very difficult to land a blow on.

Yes indeed. The GM was very frustrated. That said, I personally can't see myself wanting to parry/riposte much (if at all) because of the huge panache cost of doing it (and the requirement of taking combat reflexes). It would probably be reasonable to have at least one of them (probably the parry) able to be done as long as you have some panache, while the other costs a point. Also, you can't parry spells or ranged attacks, or riposte enemies at reach, so the GM has other options for killing the swashbuckler.

[Dor]

Dor wrote:

It would probably be reasonable to have at least one of them (probably the parry) able to be done as long as you have some panache, while the other costs a point.

On second thought, make the riposte "free". You have to pay a feat tax to even use it anyway.

[Slacker2010]

I might have miscounted but it also looks like a 32 point build. So it should be extremely powerful.

[Tormad]

Slacker2010 wrote:

I might have miscounted but it also looks like a 32 point build. So it should be extremely powerful.

looks closer to 27 to me, still strong.

str 14 - 5 points
dex 17 + 2 human + 1 level - 13 points
con 12 - 2 points
int 10 - 0 points
wis 12 - 2 points
cha 14 - 5 points

Now to say dropping the int to 8 or the wis to 10 brings it in line with a 25 point buy. I think the biggest thing is signature deed can only be taken once, no where was it stated that you can take grit feats for the swashbuckler (i could be wrong on this one), and even if you could take the feat there is a level 11 min required.

now to be a OP hitting machine, replace those 3 feats with unarmed strike, dodge, and crane style and drop imp initiative for crane wing and you got a party right there.

[Kolokotroni]

Cheapy wrote:

Wait what? Parry and riposte for no cost? Where did Stephen say that?

Stephen mentioned he was thinking about it or at least that was my impression of this post.

[Slacker2010]

DoomOtter wrote:

My stats were as follows

Strix Swashbuckler lvl 7

Str 14
Dex 20
con 12
Int 10
Wis 12
cha 14

Dont Strix get -2 CHA? Then it would be 5 points more

[Brutedude]

Kolokotroni wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Wait what? Parry and riposte for no cost? Where did Stephen say that?

Stephen mentioned he was thinking about it or at least that was my impression of this post.

And it would make a lot of sense too. Crane Wing is already something that can be used with a mere 1-level dip into the Style Monk archetype, and it gains you turn a hit into an automatic miss once per round

As currently written, Swashbuckler Parry requires you to make an attack roll higher than your opponent's without seeing if they're going to hit you first, and requires you to spend a point from your pool each and every time (which is going to be starting at what, 5 or 6 points?).

And while Crane Wing is sweeeeet, the fact is that with it just sitting out there it feels hard to justify why this combat style feat is so superior to the Swashbuckler's signature ability. The only thing I'd be concerned about is the two of them stacking, but that requires all of a sentence to fix.

[ChainsawSam]

Brutedude wrote:

Kolokotroni wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Wait what? Parry and riposte for no cost? Where did Stephen say that?

Stephen mentioned he was thinking about it or at least that was my impression of this post.

And it would make a lot of sense too. Crane Wing is already something that can be used with a mere 1-level dip into the Style Monk archetype, and it gains you turn a hit into an automatic miss once per round

As currently written, Swashbuckler Parry requires you to make an attack roll higher than your opponent's without seeing if they're going to hit you first, and requires you to spend a point from your pool each and every time (which is going to be starting at what, 5 or 6 points?).

And while Crane Wing is sweeeeet, the fact is that with it just sitting out there it feels hard to justify why this combat style feat is so superior to the Swashbuckler's signature ability. The only thing I'd be concerned about is the two of them stacking, but that requires all of a sentence to fix.

5 or 6 Panache points? Slow down cowboy.

We're looking at 1-3.

I think the Parry should cost a Panache point. If the parry is successful the riposte should be free.

The cost sucks, but that can be the limiting factor. If you're willing to spend your meager points you can try it as much as you want.

Although frankly I can't see many Swashbuckler builds that don't go for Crane Wing/Riposte. The feats are stupid good and the Swashbuckler is forced to have a hand free anyway.

While we're at it, unless I'm not completely understanding the rules, I don't see many Swashbucklers not going for Dervish Dance either. That's another feat that is stupid good and the Swashbuckler is, again, forced to have a hand free anyway.

edit: My main issue with Opportune Parry and Riposte is tat they both eat attacks of opportunity. We have a feat tax on a first level ability for crying out loud.

[Brutedude]

With 5-6 I'm assuming a best case scenario type of situation. (16-18 Cha, Extra Panache feet, etc.)

But I am still going to argue that Parrying should be the free one (as long as you have one point left) and Riposte the one that costs.

Otherwise if the Riposte is free there's literally no reason to separate the abilities as literally every successful parry would be joined by a Riposte. So in essence you'd be eliminating Parry ability to just a default part of Riposte's effect.

The issue with the current parry is that you have to roll insanely good just for it to be successful in the first place (since they would have had to hit you in the first place for you to get the benefit). Placing a one round limit on it and requiring a point in your pool to boot wood mean that you definitely limit it's actual effect so nothing's getting out of hand.

My logic is that the Swashbuckler should be parrying off pretty consistently in combat as that's there schtick. Riposte is the more daring move that requires effort and allocation of resources.

[RafaelBraga]

Dervish Dance, Crane Wing and Crane Riposte are must for the Swasbuclker(which i really think outclass the common fighter in every single possible way)

Note that crane riposte allow you to make the riposte with ANY weapon, not just an unarmed strike.

[LordKadarian]

so recently built myself a 16th level pure swashbuckler for the end of the campaign, the party I was in were being a bunch of munchkins including myself and well we killed cthuhlu at level 16 enough said, so with the playtest out we decided to switch out for the final dungeon.

here is what I found, the swashbuckler works amazingly well with crane style especially fighting defensively invested eventually in a rod of balance is not a bad idea. you want to either go aldori dueling sword, rapier, or scimitar. the main reason for this is as follows

the aldori dueling sword has feats and traits that are very beneficial for attack, defense, and initiative. it also ends up with a 20% threat range,
and as soon as you can afford it put agile on the sword to add dex to damage.

scimitar allows you to get dex to damage earlier and less costly ends up with a 30% threat range, and is over all a decent weapon, but most of the time early game will be unusable and thus a starting character planning to take this root should use a rapier at low level and transition over.

rapier: like the scimitar it can get a 30% threat range, and we can enchant it just like the aldori dueling sword to provide dex based damage. but unlike the scimitar it does not take a feat tax

so in short if you want higher crit go rapier or scimitar depending on which is more important to your build feats or gold
and the aldori if you want a more balanced weapon for over all combat.

I ended up going with the transformative property for my weapon, think that is what it is called, either way cost an arm and a leg and turns my aldori sword into a rapier and back again. the reason for this is that even at that high level with the feats every 4 levels on top of normal I did not find room for extra panache feats and even with boosting my charisma and starting with rolled stats that gave me a good starting charisma I had 9 pts to work with and I burned through them fast, so I would switch to rapier to get them back, and aldori for while I had enough of them.

I would also say that it is best to make parry and riposte cost something, my advice is for parry to cost a AoO, and riposte to cost a panache, this means that you need combat reflexes to parry multiple attacks but can still use the ability once per turn without the feat tax, and if you wish to counter that attack it costs panache to do so, make this part of the parry ability, so as long as you have the 1 point you may spend an attack of opportunity to parry, and if you succeed you may spend a panache point to riposte.