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Mostly as a joke, I'm trying to get my initiative as low as possible on one character (minus the deafened condition due to the spell failure). I have a 7 DEX and a Flawed Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone, but I'm coming up blank on any other ways to decrease my initiative. Anyone have any ideas?
This is for a PFS-legal Thassilonian Specialist (sloth) wizard 2 looking to go into bloatmage.
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The Robe of Vermin cursed item (it's near the bottom) knocks your initiative by -5 in addition to its other ill effects.
Also, the Lovesick drawback from Ultimate Campaign gives a -2 to initiative.
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Woo hoo! Is it possible to act in the NEXT round if you go too low? =)
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A Sloth Wizard? I'd get the highest possible initiative I could get! ... And then in the first round of combat, I'd delay until I go last anyway.
You know, I COULD go earlier, but it's just waaaaay too much efford :D
The Robe of Vermin cursed item (it's near the bottom) knocks your initiative by -5 in addition to its other ill effects.
Also, the Lovesick drawback from Ultimate Campaign gives a -2 to initiative.
Very nice.
Iammars, you just became an npc in my next game, Iammars the slow. Don't worry, you will be cool when you do finally act.
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Well, if you make an oracle with the deaf curse you get the -4 to initiative without having to worry about spell failure.
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Wearing armor or wielding a shield that you aren't proficient in, that causes an initiative penalty equal to its armor check penalty:
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.
Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
Splint Mail and a Tower Shield would buy you -17 to initiative right there.
-Matt
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Wearing armor or wielding a shield that you aren't proficient in, that causes an initiative penalty equal to its armor check penalty:
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
Splint Mail and a Tower Shield would buy you -17 to initiative right there.
-Matt
Huh. That makes complete sense, but I'd never thought of that before. I guess that means that my initiative is actually lower, since I already have the Bloatmage Initiate feat. Woo! (Now I have to decide if I want to get him better armor or not, which involves finding some way around the Arcane Spell Failure chance.)
blackbloodtroll: I try to have all my PFS characters do something memorable at the table so that you can remember them after you've played with them. Delaying until after everyone goes is not really that memorable. Getting a -3 initiative is.
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Some of us don't want to optimize. Sometimes the other direction is really fun.
Like the time I made a scout with low dex and average con. One of my favourites.
Yeah, I've played a powerful, mighty char with no real stat flaws (and certainly nothing wrong with them mechanically in any of the important stats) over and over.
Flipping the table on this and having a good time is recommended.
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Yeah, I've played a powerful, mighty char with no real stat flaws (and certainly nothing wrong with them mechanically in any of the important stats) over and over.
Flipping the table on this and having a good time is recommended.
This is not a reverse, and nobody is mentioning playing powerful PCs, or disregarding the fun of underpowered PCs.
In fact, power is not even been discussed.
I am just saying it's a dead focus.
You might as well build a PC optimized to fail appraise checks.
It's isn't even a memorable thing, as it will get a raised eyebrow, maybe, once, then the thrill is gone.
No, a low stat can provide more than singular joy. I certainly enjoyed my low initiative character across multiple sessions (low initiative, low ac, high movement, high to hit).
Try it.
We are so used to high initiative, low or truly negative initiative really is quite novel.
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James, while the Tower Shield can run you lower on its own, just go for having as much encumbrance as possible. That gives, if you can hit heavy, and you will once you can buy stuff (You carry how many Tanglefoot Bags?), a -6 ot intiative, IIRC.
So heavy encumbrance, 7 Dex, that Ioun stone, and a Tower Shield you aren't proficient in...
Is that the one that gives a bonus to Perception with a penalty to Initiative?
You might also check the Pathfinder Society Primer to see if any of the new Ioun stones or their resonances, might fit, too.
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No, a low stat can provide more than singular joy. I certainly enjoyed my low initiative character across multiple sessions (low initiative, low ac, high movement, high to hit).
Try it.
We are so used to high initiative, low or truly negative initiative really is quite novel.
I get that.
It's having low initiative, as a focus, that makes no sense.
You are putting resources towards an end goal.
What is the end goal of low initiative?
To go last?
Well, that can be done with delay.
That's why it has no purpose, even for flavor.
You might as well draw Unicorns on your character sheet, for flavor, because that's the amount of effect.
I guess you just don't get it.
I have a question, what is the average dex of your characters?
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What is the end goal of low initiative?
To go last?
Well, that can be done with delay.
That's why it has no purpose, even for flavor.
The purpose is to amuse himself. He gets amusement out of being called for initiative and responding with a negative number. This cannot be done with delay. You don't have to understand his humor, as there is no accounting for taste.
When my full-plated paladin was called on to make a Move Silently check, it was amusing to roll the dice and announce "Negative 6" to the table.
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What is the end goal of low initiative?
To go last?
Well, that can be done with delay.
That's why it has no purpose, even for flavor.
The purpose is to amuse himself. He gets amusement out of being called for initiative and responding with a negative number. This cannot be done with delay. You don't have to understand his humor, as there is no accounting for taste.
When my full-plated paladin was called on to make a Move Silently check, it was amusing to roll the dice and announce "Negative 6" to the table.
Yeah, I know that feeling.
"Okay, make an acrobatics check."
"-3"
:/ "Really?" the dm says.
"Lol, he really can't jump in all this armour".
"Okay to get over this fence you need an acrobatics check of 10."
Ten?! That's impossible.
I got a 7."
Later still.
"Okay, now you need a five."
"-5, is there some other way?
Can I just go around?"
PFS is a team sport.
This sounds like an exercise in making yourself the weakest link. As such, it is unfair for you to subject this character on other PCs and players who have a right to expect you at least make an effort at making a competent PC.
Yeah, but a low initiative, a truly low initiative does not mean the character overall is crap or worthless. I know from experience low initiative low dex chars can work and can triumph (no dm hand holding needed), it just means they don't go first.
Maybe they tie in initiative with an ooze. I've seen some fighters and barbs dump dex & initiative and pump con & str. So they take the hit, and then they don't usually have to go anywhere to do a full round attack.
Fighter clerics can actually benefit from this (and they need the points for wisdom). They buff prior to battle, they go last, get hurt, kill and then heal themselves. A self contained unit of destruction in a low initiative package.
I made a low initiative, low dex archer once. This guy was working off his wisdom for shooting (feat) and with all his sneaking around and fast movement, he mostly got around a low dex by engaging at long range. He never fought fair, he hated up close fighting and he skirmishing to victory when he could (or fled).
The other funny thing about low initiative, is that sometimes you roll quite well (it is a d20 after all), so then that is enjoyable but you aren't worried about always going first. Can give you more time to consider what you do as well.
Another one, and a bit more suited as enemies, is the low initiative barbarian archer.
What?
Yes, so you take a half-orc, orc or an ogre or something like that. Hammer that dexterity down, beef the str and con up, beef up their wisdom a bit too. They are mighty bowmen with good senses, who take careful measured shots. Then you add the barbarian levels on and give them very, very nice composite bows to an insane level of strength on the limit of what they can use when raging.
Then they rage when they shoot. Take archery feats, but maybe not many of them. Pair them with a buffer, or use potions to mitigate the low dex, and put them in a spot that may encourage melee engagement after a few shots.
Their to hit isn't great (but there are ways around that), but these are not your typical archers. Their damage can be insane. Especially at low level. Use your rage abilities as you want and the kicker is when engaged you are a ranging strength barbarian (or multiples of them). If you give them grapple feats and they disable those that charge up to them, you win the game.
Once they get up to two standards, you can level them into magus or cleric or the like, and take true strike. Lol.
Low initiative, high damage. Mixed ranged and melee roles filled. Points for something other than beefing dex, hp available to absorb the hits that will come, rage to keep them alive and shoot truly powerful arrows upon their enemies.
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Plenty of characters benefit from going last rather than first.
They really don't. You're always better off going first in the round and saying "I do nothing" than you are going last, because you're not flat footed during your enemy's first action. And better off still by doing something productive with your first action.
Somebody has to go last. What difference does it make if he volunteers to?
If you don't beat the enemy's initiative, you get one less action during the combat, or the enemy gets one more action. Even if your action is only 'total defense', you're still better off for having had the option of going first.
Let's say I'm a simple healbot cleric with a single barbarian ally, fighting a dragon. As a healer, I have more to do after the enemy attacks than before, so I'm not too concerned about initiative, right?
If the barbarian gets 10 initiative, and the dragon gets 5, and I get 1, the battle might go:
Barbarian attacks dragon.
Dragon attacks barbarian.
I heal barbarian.
(repeat last three steps until someone dies)
If, instead, I had got 20 initiative, it might go:
I cast 'Blessing of Fervor' (or Bless, or Resist Energy or whatever seems appropriate).
Barbarian attacks dragon.
Dragon attacks barbarian.
I heal barbarian.
(repeat last three steps until someone dies)
This seems a lot better to me.
I don't think there's anything wrong with making a low initiative character. They're just not as good in combat as high initiative characters.
Plenty of characters benefit from going last rather than first.They really don't. You're always better off going first in the round and saying "I do nothing" than you are going last, because you're not flat footed during your enemy's first action. And better off still by doing something productive with your first action.
Nope. It is not always ideal, you may get shot more, but you can lure them in by letting them act and have them expend their movement and then take to skirmishing as you can now act on the end. If they act first you can judge their movement range too, how far they can move next round. Going last means you are after the quick, but that may mean they are in the open or have already ambushed others (which may have quickly bumbled into something).
Slow and steady wins the race!
Because some people demand other people play at their level. Any weakness in one is a weakness in the group and cannot be tolerated.
That sounds awfully fascist...
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Have an addiction to scorpion venom and keep an angry greensting scorpion or a familiar greensting scorpion to sting you constantly and give you the sickened condition (and voluntarily fail your saving throw).
Ohhhhh that hit the spot.
If you don't beat the enemy's initiative, you get one less action during the combat, or the enemy gets one more action. Even if your action is only 'total defense', you're still better off for having had the option of going first.
Let's say I'm a simple healbot cleric with a single barbarian ally, fighting a dragon. As a healer, I have more to do after the enemy attacks than before, so I'm not too concerned about initiative, right?If the barbarian gets 10 initiative, and the dragon gets 5, and I get 1, the battle might go:
Barbarian attacks dragon.
Dragon attacks barbarian.
I heal barbarian.
(repeat last three steps until someone dies)If, instead, I had got 20 initiative, it might go:
I cast 'Blessing of Fervor' (or Bless, or Resist Energy or whatever seems appropriate).
Barbarian attacks dragon.
Dragon attacks barbarian.
I heal barbarian.
(repeat last three steps until someone dies)This seems a lot better to me.
I don't think there's anything wrong with making a low initiative character. They're just not as good in combat as high initiative characters.
A low initiative cleric deep in formation can be good in two ways.
1) You see who is hurt and being attacked so you can heal/buff accordingly.
2) As the monsters use their better initiative and descend upon the party, they are closer for negative channeling.
Yes, but if you get a high initiative, and take the first action, then once you've done that you immediately turn into a low initiative cleric who can do all those things you said, only you're not flat footed and you got to have an extra action first.