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Hey folks,
I've been pretty active on the Hunter threads trying to give my feedback about play testing and improvements. One of the biggest aspects of the class is the ability to use Teamwork feats. As people have pointed out, there is a lack of viable feats right now and doesn't allow for much variability in builds. To that end, I propose this thread to help kickstart/brainstorm ideas. Obviously, many of these feats will hopefully benefit the Cavalier and Inquisitor as well!
Devs - if this is unwanted, feel free to shut me down! My chaotic good nature says I'm going to go for it anyway.
So, to get us started, here is one of my suggestions:
I'll be adding more after I put some more thought into them.
I think Incoming Shot is missing a "not!"
I think there should (maybe) be a class feature that increases numerical bonuses from Teamwork Feats by +2 or +1 die each time (every 4 or 5 levels?).
I think Incoming Shot is missing a "not!"
It was a stab at what people have been asking for. Other than "not", what are the reasons you don't like that particular teamwork feat?
You typed: Allies who also possess this feat and are threatening an enemy you are attacking do provide cover to the enemy when firing a ranged weapon into melee.
And I think you meant to type: Allies who also possess this feat and are threatening an enemy you are attacking do not provide cover to the enemy when firing a ranged weapon into melee.
I kind of like it, but it's basically Precise Shot, isn't it? Well, instead of the archer taking Precise Shot, all his allies have to take it. I think it's a step in the right direction. Maybe if 2 or more allies threaten an target, you get a +2 bonus on ranged attacks against that target? And another +2 if your allies are flanking the target?
Something like that.
There definitely needs to be a system where melee and ranged allies can help each other out! :-)
You typed: Allies who also possess this feat and are threatening an enemy you are attacking do provide cover to the enemy when firing a ranged weapon into melee.
And I think you meant to type: Allies who also possess this feat and are threatening an enemy you are attacking do not provide cover to the enemy when firing a ranged weapon into melee.
I kind of like it, but it's basically Precise Shot, isn't it? Well, instead of the archer taking Precise Shot, all his allies have to take it. I think it's a step in the right direction. Maybe if 2 or more allies threaten an target, you get a +2 bonus on ranged attacks against that target? And another +2 if your allies are flanking the target?
Something like that.There definitely needs to be a system where melee and ranged allies can help each other out! :-)
Hah, you're absolutely right! I meant "do not provide cover". It's not exactly like precise shot as allies can still provide cover to enemies unless the ranged character moves to get a shot in. Which is fine if they want to be left with a single standard action at the end of the move, but it hinders their ability to make full attacks.
Also, consider that you could have several ranged characters with this feat and a single warrior type with it go up and slow the enemy down while the others pepper them. I could see some interesting builds here (and it helps casters using ray attacks as well!)
Yup!
This thread is a great idea. Generally speaking, the "special feat categories" associated with newer classes haven't gotten much love outside of the books they premiered in.
For example, when was the last time you saw a new grit feat?
Cooperative Care would likely be a better title for Combined Care.
Absolutely! I'm not so concerned with the titles as much as I am the mechanics surrounding it. Making sure that it's actually worthwhile and is a big enough enhancement to warrant multiple people spending a feat for a situational benefit.
This thread is a great idea. Generally speaking, the "special feat categories" associated with newer classes haven't gotten much love outside of the books they premiered in.
For example, when was the last time you saw a new grit feat?
As far as I can recall, the only time we see new feats targeted for classes is a Player Handbook (Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat). Not going to go into Gunslinger on a personal level, as that's best saved for another thread... suffice it to say they are outlawed (no pun intended) at our home games.
Oh I have an idea! Probably WAY too much, but I think it's a good place to start, at least for brainstorming.
OK so as I was writing that it became fairly obvious that it was not the bets well written thing, but I thought it was a cool idea so I went for it.
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These feats probably need to be cleaned up a bit on the wording or have the prerequisites worked with. But there definitely needs to be something of this sort to allow a ranged hunter.
Skirmish Training
Prerequisites: Dex 13
You must have a clear line of sight to the space closest to your opponent, which must be within 1 increment of a ranged weapon you are currently wielding. If this space is not occupied or otherwise blocked, you may count as a threatening creature standing on this square in respects to flanking with an ally who also has this feat.
Improved Skirmish Training
Prerequisites: Skirmish Training, BAB +3
When using Skirmish Training you gain the benefits of flanking as if you were standing in the threatening square opposite your ally with this feat. You may gain the attack bonus on a ranged attack rather than a melee attack using this feat.
Alrighty here are some thoughts
Communal Caster
Prerequisites: none
Benefit: When you cast a spell with a duration of 1 round/level, 1 minute/level, 10 minutes/level or 1 hour/level that only targets you, you can divide the duration between yourself and any allies who also have this feat in increments no smaller than the duration that would be granted if this spell were cast at caster level 1. For example, a Hunter can cast barkskin (10 minutes/level) and divide the duration of Barkskin among allies who also possess this feat in 10 minute increments.
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Just some stuff off of the top of my head. Please critique and comment.
Kickin' em' to you!: You and your cohorts have trained in repositioning enemies, learning how to maneuver them and push them into your allies assaults.
Prerequisites: none or Improved bullrush
Benefit: Allies with this feat gain a free attack of opportunity when you bull rush enemies into their threatened squares.
Fast ball special: You know how to use your raw strength and your allies small stature to get them quickly where they need to go.
Prerequisites: Str 15+ target must be 1 size category smaller then you
Benefit: You may heft your allies at a target, throwing them into the fray as a standard action with a range increment of 10 ft. Allies thrown as part of a fast ball special do not provoke an attack of opportunity for this movement.
Fast Ball Special shouldn't have a Str or Size requirement if it is a Teamwork Feat. Maybe a BAB requirement.
Then in the body of the feat, explain that the larger member of the team can throw the smaller member of the team.
And maybe make the range increment be 10 feet per difference in size category between thrower and throwee. So a Large can throw a Small 20 feet per increment, etc. etc.
While adjacent to an ally who has this feat, you can perform an Aid Another action to give that ally a bonus to a ranged attack roll. If successful, this bonus is applied to the damage as well as the attack roll.
Requires: Clustered Shots
If an ally who has this feat dealt damage to an enemy in the last round using a ranged weapon, you may subtract his damage dealt from that enemy's DR when you hit it with your own ranged weapon
Thanks for the suggestions, keep up the good work!
I love improved skirish training, and would like to use it on a future slayer. To that end, could we make it say "benefits of flanking" instead of "the attack bonus"?
This would make ranged sneak attack slayer (and a rogue too) work.
Now I can't help but Imagine two rogues with each their own light crossbow, tumbling around on the battlefield and flanking with each other, ranged!
That'd be cool.
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I love improved skirish training, and would like to use it on a future slayer. To that end, could we make it say "benefits of flanking" instead of "the attack bonus"?
This would make ranged sneak attack slayer (and a rogue too) work.Now I can't help but Imagine two rogues with each their own light crossbow, tumbling around on the battlefield and flanking with each other, ranged!
That'd be cool.
It would, and it's also kind of what skirmishing is, so it makes perfect sense, too. ;)
But ranged rogue can be made to work with clever positioning and concealment anyway. On Saturday night in our Council of Thieves game in part 5, the party ranger and my (shortbow-wielding dwarf) rogue were scouting out the forest and ran into one of the Council's patrol groups. Their dogs smelled us, so hiding until they passed was out. I one-shot three of them before they started besting my sniper-penalty Stealth roll, and neither of us took any damage wiping out the whole group. XD
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Oh yeah, good catch I had intended that and got caught up in that complicated wording.
Another one:
Arming Disarm
If you successfully disarm an opponent of a wielded item you can choose to have it land in the space of an ally adjacent to the opponent that also has this feat rather than drop at the opponents feet. Your ally can choose to catch the disarmed item if they have a hand free.
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Fire as One
Prerequisites: Dex 13
To use this feat you must be adjacent to an ally that also has this feat and has made a full attack with a ranged weapon this round. If you are armed with the same ranged weapon as they are, you may choose to make use of all combat feats your ally used on their full attack action even without meeting any of the prerequisites.
I like your Improved Incoming Shot. Feels like using a hunting hound. I feel like the Incoming Shot ability should be granted automatically.
Cavalry Shield
When mounted by an ally with this feat, you may use their shield bonus to AC rather than your own.
The wording... You may want to rephrase this and mention a pre-requisite of being an animal companion or something...
As it is, this could apply to any two characters where one is being mounted by the other.
"Coordinated Shot"
You are skilled at working with your allies to take advantage of any openings in an enemies defense.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat is adjacent to an enemy and deals damage to that enemy, you count that enemy as Flat-footed for 1 round.
"Reckless Shot"
You and your ally favor offense over defense and use it to great affect against foes.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat Charges an enemy, you gain a +2 damage bonus on ranged attacks that target that enemy.
"Distracting Shot"
You are skilled at placing your shots to cover your ally in melee.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat misses with a ranged attack upon an enemy and you are adjacent to that enemy, you can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action.
Spellguard Stance
When you are within the reach of an ally who also has this feat, you gain a +4 bonus on concentration checks.
this is basically just a counter to disruptive
Designating Strikes
Whenever you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, allies who also possess this feat gain a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against that enemy for 1 round. Bonuses granted by this feat do not stack.
Intercept Enemy
Once per round, when an enemy declares a charge against an ally who also has this feat, you may move up to your speed toward any square in the path of the charge. If you end this movement in the path of an enemy's charge you become the target of the charge instead of your ally.
Curative Link
When you use a spell or ability that heals hitpoint damage on an ally that also has this feat, they gain twice the number of hitpoints.
Assisted Targeting
When attacking a target with concealment who is threatened by an ally with this feat, you may use the target's level of concealment against your ally.
I wasn't sure how to word this. The idea was that you would have an ally with darkvision, see invisibility, etc. helping you target an enemy you can't see. Or, shooting at an enemy in an obscuring mist, and your ally next to the enemy is telling you where in the enemy's space to shoot, reducing your miss chance from 50% to 20%.
Cavalry Shield
When mounted by an ally with this feat, you may use their shield bonus to AC rather than your own.The wording... You may want to rephrase this and mention a pre-requisite of being an animal companion or something...
As it is, this could apply to any two characters where one is being mounted by the other.
I disagree. A feat like this should be able to apply to any mount. There are many non-AC mounts, such as cohorts, eidolons, and even wild-shaped druids.
If your rider has this feat, you may use his shield bonus to AC rather than your own.
Oh yeah, I was wanting it to be applicable to even just regular horses if they were trained properly... though the wording could be modified to be a little less suggestive? :D
That's what I was referring to; the suggestive nature of said feat. Otherwise, I like the idea!
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Reaving Spells
Prerequisites: BAB +3 or be able to cast 2nd level spells.
If an enemy fails a save this round against a spell cast by an ally that also has this feat, they suffer a penalty to AC for all melee attacks you make against them this round. The penalty to AC is equal to the spell level of the spell they failed the save against.
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Tandem Tactics:
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Outflank
Benefit: While adjacent to an ally with this feat, enemies which you both threaten are considered flanked for the purposes of your attacks, and you do not provide cover to this enemy from attacks made by your allies with this feat.
((Basically, this feat is meant to negate the penalties associated with through an ally with a reach weapon, and not make five foot corridors suck so much for multi-melee parties. and the flanking represents the fact that the enemies aren't sure where the attack is going to come from.))
A fantastic thread! Nice work people...
From Hell and Heaven
While you are on the mount that has this Feat, when you and your mount make melee attack to same foe, you and your mount are treated as flanking that creature.
Moon and Cloud
Whenever an ally who has this feat provide you with soft cover against an creture at the beginning of your turn, that creature is treated as flat-footed against your melee attacks.
"Coordinated Shot"
You are skilled at working with your allies to take advantage of any openings in an enemies defense.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat is adjacent to an enemy and deals damage to that enemy, you count that enemy as Flat-footed for 1 round."Reckless Shot"
You and your ally favor offense over defense and use it to great affect against foes.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat Charges an enemy, you gain a +2 damage bonus on ranged attacks that target that enemy."Distracting Shot"
You are skilled at placing your shots to cover your ally in melee.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat misses with a ranged attack upon an enemy and you are adjacent to that enemy, you can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action.
I recommend that ALL feats avoid using the term adjacent unless absolutely necessary and instead refer to threatened enemies. This makes reach weapons not suck.
Also, if it counts as an attack of opportunity, it doesn't need to also take your immediate action.
"Coordinated Shot"
You are skilled at working with your allies to take advantage of any openings in an enemies defense.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat is adjacent to an enemy and deals damage to that enemy, you count that enemy as Flat-footed for 1 round."Reckless Shot"
You and your ally favor offense over defense and use it to great affect against foes.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat Charges an enemy, you gain a +2 damage bonus on ranged attacks that target that enemy."Distracting Shot"
You are skilled at placing your shots to cover your ally in melee.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat misses with a ranged attack upon an enemy and you are adjacent to that enemy, you can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action.I recommend that ALL feats avoid using the term adjacent unless absolutely necessary and instead refer to threatened enemies. This makes reach weapons not suck.
Also, if it counts as an attack of opportunity, it doesn't need to also take your immediate action.
"Distracting Shot" should just say "an attack as an immediate action"
Also thanks for pointing that out they should say threaten rather than adjacent i never fixed that before posting.
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From Hell and Heaven
While you are on the mount that has this Feat, when you and your mount make melee attack to same foe, you and your mount are treated as flanking that creature.
This one either needs some serious prerequisites or a different effect.
Perhaps this could work instead (I changed the names for the sake of avoiding any celestial/infernal associations):From Below
Prereq: Is an animal companion or mount granted via a class feature; combat training?; [possibly another pre req.]
While being ridden by a rider with the "From Above" feat, you may spend a swift action to attempt to aid another on your rider's first melee attack in a round. This may only be used if you missed on all melee attacks against a foe this turn. All attacks this turn must have been made against the same foe in order to grant this bonus. The aid another bonus only applies if your rider targets that same foe.
From Above
Prereq: Have either the animal companion or mount class feature; Mounted Combat; [one other pre req.]
Gain +1d6 damage on your first successful melee attack against a foe that was successfully hit by your mount this round. Your mount must have the "From Below" feat for you to use this ability. Your mount may only have targeted a single foe with all of its attacks this turn in order for you to gain the benefits of this feat. This feat's benefits may only be gained once per round.
Feedback please.
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From Below
Prereq: Is an animal companion or mount granted via a class feature; combat training?; [possibly another pre req.]
While being ridden by a rider with the "From Above" feat, you may spend a swift action to attempt to aid another on your rider's first melee attack in a round. This may only be used if you missed on all melee attacks against a foe this turn. All attacks this turn must have been made against the same foe in order to grant this bonus. The aid another bonus only applies if your rider targets that same foe.From Above
Prereq: Have either the animal companion or mount class feature; Mounted Combat; [one other pre req.]
Gain +1d6 damage on your first successful melee attack against a foe that was successfully hit by your mount this round. Your mount must have the "From Below" feat for you to use this ability. Your mount may only have targeted a single foe with all of its attacks this turn in order for you to gain the benefits of this feat. This feat's benefits may only be gained once per round.
Those are definitely interesting. The standard for teamwork feats is to be a singular feat that gives the bonus when someone else also has the same feat and then fulfills some other condition. I'm not sure if breaking that convention here is a good thing or not. It might work better as just one feat that gives a different bonus depending on which you are, given those prerequisites are sort of hinky anyways.
For example if you were an inquisitor, you wouldn't be able to use this feat combo as you'd learn 'from above' and count your mount as also having 'from above' giving you no bonus.
The reason that even asymmetrical teamwork feats aren't split into two is exactly that. Inquisitors, crusaders, and now hunters have mechanics that make everything work much better if even teamwork feats like that are made into a single feat. Unless the intention is to specifically make teamwork feats that work badly for those classes, teamwork feats should not be split across multiple feats for different participants.
This does mean that you have to avoid giving the teamwork feats prereqs that make no sense for some of the participants. Even the game's own writers get confused by this sometimes; Enfilading Fire, for example, is extremely difficult to use except with a ranged crusader or inquisitor, because it otherwise requires a melee ally to have taken Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, which basically never happens outside of pretty rare niche builds or very advanced builds. The feat's prereqs were either written completely forgetting that the flanker has to have the feat too or it was never meant to not be a real teamwork feat at all, just an inquisitor talent disguised as one.
The reason that even asymmetrical teamwork feats aren't split into two is exactly that. Inquisitors, crusaders, and now hunters have mechanics that make everything work much better if even teamwork feats like that are made into a single feat. Unless the intention is to specifically make teamwork feats that work badly for those classes, teamwork feats should not be split across multiple feats for different participants.
This does mean that you have to avoid giving the teamwork feats prereqs that make no sense for some of the participants. Even the game's own writers get confused by this sometimes; Enfilading Fire, for example, is extremely difficult to use except with a ranged crusader or inquisitor, because it otherwise requires a melee ally to have taken Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, which basically never happens outside of pretty rare niche builds or very advanced builds. The feat's prereqs were either written completely forgetting that the flanker has to have the feat too or it was never meant to not be a real teamwork feat at all, just an inquisitor talent disguised as one.
Completely agree with this. In addition to requiring multiple people to have the feat, the benefits have to be worth it. Considering that many of them have conditions that have to be met as well, the power aspects of Teamwork Feats needs to be considered and improved. As of right now, only the classes that get free teamwork feats use them because it's a waste of some other, more powerful feat instead.
Tandem Tactics:
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Outflank
Benefit: While adjacent to an ally with this feat, enemies which you both threaten are considered flanked for the purposes of your attacks, and you do not provide cover to this enemy from attacks made by your allies with this feat.((Basically, this feat is meant to negate the penalties associated with through an ally with a reach weapon, and not make five foot corridors suck so much for multi-melee parties. and the flanking represents the fact that the enemies aren't sure where the attack is going to come from.))
I like it. Although I'd probably rather have a feat that lets a creature you're flanking with count as adjecent for the purpose of teamwork feats?
Although maybe that'll act too much like a feat tax, come to think of it.
Tactics, Tandem:
Prerequisites: Outflank
While flanking an enemy with an ally who has this feat, you count as adjecent to each other for the purposes of abilities that require this.
Special: It does not allow you to target an ally with a touch range ability if you could normally not.
This works for share spells too, I think. I added that last line as qualification, as that was the first unintended consequence I could think of. Beyond touch range abilities, strange consequences aren't bugs, they're features ;)
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Having not played an inquisitor, hunter, or "crusader" (cavalier?), I did not realize the negative ramifications that that feat split would have.
Here is a revision, better wording/ideas for the prerequisites would be appreciated:
From Above and Below
Prereq: Mounted Combat, Ride {X} ranks, BAB +{X} OR be a class feature
When a creature granted by a class feature is ridden by its master, and both of them have this feat, they become better at coordinating and cooperating in combat.
During each round that the mount has attacked against only a single target (either with an attack or full-attack), the pair may utilize one of the following benefits depending upon whether the mount successfully hit that foe.
*If the mount failed to hit the foe with its attack(s), then it may spend a swift action to attempt to aid another on the rider's first melee attack this round against that same foe.
*If the mount successfully hit the foe at least once with its attack(s), then the rider gains +1d6 damage on their first successful melee attack against that foe.
I'm going to break my own rule. To clarify, I should have said avoid using the term adjacent enemy.
United we Stand
When you are adjacent to an ally who takes damage from an attack, you may spend an immediate action to divert up to half the damage to yourself. This damage bypasses any damage reduction or resistances and cannot be reduced in anyway. However, this damage does allow an adjacent ally to use this feat. A character cannot take damage from the same attack more than once with this feat.
Divided we Conquer A
As a full round action, you may make a single melee attack against an enemy. If the attack is successful, until your next turn, any ally with this feat may make a single ranged attack as a full round action against the same enemy that targets their touch armor class. Attacks against creatures immune to sneak attack target their normal armor class.
or
Divided we Conquer B
As a full round action, you may make a single melee attack against an enemy. If the attack is successful, until your next turn, any ally with this feat deals an extra 1d6 of precision damage on any successful ranged attacks against the same enemy. This bonus damage stacks with other sources of precision damage, such as sneak attack. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
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If I weren't going for the naming gimmick, I'd call the first feat, "We are Legion". The idea behind Divided we Conquer is that a first character cuts a hole in the defenses of the enemy allowing the ranged characters to bypass the armor. In case that is too good, I came up with the alternate that is basically a ranged version of Precise Strike while still keeping a similar feel.
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To repost from the Hunter thread
Predisposed Foe
Benefit: When threatened by an enemy that is threatened by an ally with this feat, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks.
Advantageous Archer
Prerequisite: Predisposed Foe
Benefit: You threaten squares within 5 feet of you with ranged weapons for the purposes of determining flanking against enemies threatened by an ally with this feat. Any attacks against such an enemy gain a +2 flanking bonus to attack.
Shot in the Back
Benefit: When making a ranged attack against an enemy threatened by an ally with this feat you gain a +2 bonus to damage. This bonus does not apply if your ally is providing soft cover to the enemy.
Don't you guys think that a teamwork feat should provide someting to the guy who's meleeing, too? I'm starting to see a tendency where only the ranged guy of the pair is getting something out of the deal.
Don't you guys think that a teamwork feat should provide someting to the guy who's meleeing, too? I'm starting to see a tendency where only the ranged guy of the pair is getting something out of the deal.
I mentioned this in the other thread along with my thoughts that doing so would constitute a shift up in power. It's a shift I'd be ok with, but I prefer not to tinker with that for proposing new feats.
Also, these are mostly designed for hunters, in which the feat is a "freebie" for the companion and means a little something different than if two characters were taking it. Much like enfilading fire I guess.
Don't you guys think that a teamwork feat should provide someting to the guy who's meleeing, too? I'm starting to see a tendency where only the ranged guy of the pair is getting something out of the deal.
Well I think people are generally getting the feeling that ranged teamwork feats are non-existent (and thus leaves the Hunter with less options in terms of using the existing teamwork feats).
I'm all for more melee benefits! Throw in some ideas and add to the stuff already here to make it even better.