(Excuse me if this is posted in the wrong forum, not exactly sure where these questions go. Also apologies if this is answered somewhere else.)
I've got a player designing a Swashbuckler, and we're not sure if his Swashbuckler Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse in regards to feat prerequisites. I looked over the ability and it doesn't explicitly state the Swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a feat, even though the class gets the 'benefits' of the feat. By RAW, does this currently mean that Swashbucklers must take Weapon Finesse separately to qualify for any feats that require it?
As written? I'd say no.
Should it? Absolutely. Make it so, Devs! ;)
|
Nope, base flurry of blows can count as two weapon fighting, but never counts as it to let you take improved or greater TWF feats with your own feat slots if you later multiclass.
Finesse should be finesse, hopefully that'll get fixed. I hope there's an alternate option, to add your Dex to damage instead of to hit ( and still use your Str to hit), to finesse your blade into a more vulnerable spot.
Otherwise don't waste a class ability to give me a bonus feat like weapon finesse. Just call it a bonus feat so it's comparable with finesse, or don't force me to take it if I don't want it for my build.
|
@Seraphimpunk:
Would be an amazing Idea, for the dex to damage. However, That would simulate a Mythic feat and I do not see the devs giving that kind of power scale to the players.
On the other foot, The ability to add your level to damage as precision is great, with the exception that this makes it VERY unwise to multiclass.
This Advanced class effectively is a fighter/gunslinger/duelist all in one. It gives multiple parries(not just the one) and gives you your level to damage. I WOULD like to see the finesse ability become weapon finesse as a bonus feat OR have it count as the weapon finesse feat for purposes for prerequisites.
There are some class abilities that state: This ability counts as the feat of the same name for the purposes of feats that require X for prerequisites.
The only reason I see this being a valid use of the ability is that It only applies to the light one handed piercing weapons, not like you could use weapon finesse with everything. Allowing the Swashbuckler to use dervish dance for example, and using a scimitar instead of a daggar/shortsword/rapier, etc.
|
|
It should be (but I don't think it is).
The intention behind different names is to have them distinguishable from each other (the feat and the class feature). There's been a couple of cases before where naming things the same accidentally causes mass confusion (there's 2 weapon qualities in 2 different books with different effects that are an example of this).
It's possible that since this has been pointed out that it may (or may not) be changed to say this counts for all effects including feat pre-reqs as Weapon Finesse (or that might not be their intended direction).
Edit: Just saw this thread that says the Skald's Well-Versed class feature is identical to the bards. That suggests it's either the Swashbuckler is set up like that intentionally or that it's a mistake to be fixed.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
As written right now, no. But I am leaning toward having it count toward that feat or just making it the feat in final development. It is something the design team will discuss in the coming weeks.
|
As written right now, no. But I am leaning toward having it count toward that feat or just making it the feat in final development. It is something the design team will discuss in the coming weeks.
I know this may be the best option over all. But lowering the cost of Dervish Dance? Is it really worth it?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's currently better than the feat. Why would you want it to be downgraded to "just the feat" when all they have to do is allow the better ability to count as the feat for prereqs?
As written right now, no. But I am leaning toward having it count toward that feat or just making it the feat in final development. It is something the design team will discuss in the coming weeks.
Thank you for the response! I'm hoping, like most of the other posters, that it can count as the feat.
|
|
@Seraphimpunk:
Would be an amazing Idea, for the dex to damage. However, That would simulate a Mythic feat and I do not see the devs giving that kind of power scale to the players.
On the other foot, The ability to add your level to damage as precision is great, with the exception that this makes it VERY unwise to multiclass.
This Advanced class effectively is a fighter/gunslinger/duelist all in one. It gives multiple parries(not just the one) and gives you your level to damage. I WOULD like to see the finesse ability become weapon finesse as a bonus feat OR have it count as the weapon finesse feat for purposes for prerequisites.
There are some class abilities that state: This ability counts as the feat of the same name for the purposes of feats that require X for prerequisites.The only reason I see this being a valid use of the ability is that It only applies to the light one handed piercing weapons, not like you could use weapon finesse with everything. Allowing the Swashbuckler to use dervish dance for example, and using a scimitar instead of a daggar/shortsword/rapier, etc.
ahh, haven't paid much attention to the mythic stuff.
level to precision damage would be great like the Duelist.They love putting incentives to remain single classed in, so I don't see that as being a deterrent, like paladin smite, cavalier challenge damage, etc. though those are daily abilities, and this would be at any time, not even requiring flank like a rogue.
which suddenly strikes me as overpowered. at least gunslinger its flat +dex for musketeer , for duelist it is listed as precision damage and not subject for creatures immune to crits, and its a PRC so it naturally caps at 10 towards the full 20 level career.
I only see Swashbuckler as Gunslinger in the Grit usage.
For PFS, you'll never be able to see a Swashbuckler with a gun, since you can't multiclass into gunslinger, and guns are restricted to gunslingers =P , so by having Swashbuckler as an Advanced Class w/ Gunslinger as a parent class, players will have to settle for swashbuckler flavor with their Gunslingers, or finding/buying/using guns w/o proficiency as a Swashbuckler. It could have been nice to give them firearms proficiency from the start.
ahh, haven't paid much attention to the mythic stuff.
level to precision damage would be great like the Duelist.
They love putting incentives to remain single classed in, so I don't see that as being a deterrent, like paladin smite, cavalier challenge damage, etc. though those are daily abilities, and this would be at any time, not even requiring flank like a rogue.
which suddenly strikes me as overpowered. at least gunslinger its flat +dex for musketeer , for duelist it is listed as precision damage and not subject for creatures immune to crits, and its a PRC so it naturally caps at 10 towards the full 20 level career.I only see Swashbuckler as Gunslinger in the Grit usage.
For PFS, you'll never be able to see a Swashbuckler with a gun, since you can't multiclass into gunslinger, and guns are restricted to gunslingers =P , so by having Swashbuckler as an Advanced Class w/...
For home games, I think there's supposed to be an archetype that grants them firearm proficiency. I say home games, because as far as I know, PFS hasn't allowed any firearm themed archetypes in the society beyond the ones that alter the gunslinger directly. So I'd be surprised if they did this time around.
|
|
Also, does the feat Extra Grit apply to the Swashbuckler's Panache? This being a melee class, having it also dependent so heavily on an extremely limited resource makes it very difficult to truly take advantage of the panache class abilities. A means of obtaining more points to use is practically required.
One of the benefits of the feat is "having the feat". So I'd say that counts.
As written right now, no. But I am leaning toward having it count toward that feat or just making it the feat in final development. It is something the design team will discuss in the coming weeks.
Looks like it ain't so, at least not yet. Hoping it changes, though.
Just had first session running a 1st level swashbuckler and much fun was had jumping through windows, sliding under carriges to flank and kill evil dudes saying "what ho" as opportunity arose.
In terms of this thread, when creating my latest character I wanted to do a duellist type fighter and the swashbuckler seemed perfect. However upon reading through the class and learning that the slashing duelling sword does not work with the swashbuckler class abilities due to the piercing requirements of the swashbuckler abilities and the swashbuckler finesse/weapon finesse thing I was a bit dissappointed as I would have thought it to be characterful to have a duelling orientated swashbuckler appropriately armed with a duelling sword.
As far as suggestions to remedy this maybe have duelling swords count as piercing weapons for the swashbuckler? Though this may make duelling swords all but default for the class.
Anyway just my thoughts.
That's something that bugged be as well. Dueling sword was the first weapon I thought of, then sadly had forbidden by the rules text.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I believe they are looking into that.
In terms of this thread, when creating my latest character I wanted to do a duellist type fighter and the swashbuckler seemed perfect. However upon reading through the class and learning that the slashing duelling sword does not work with the swashbuckler class abilities due to the piercing requirements of the swashbuckler abilities and the swashbuckler finesse/weapon finesse thing I was a bit dissappointed as I would have thought it to be characterful to have a duelling orientated swashbuckler appropriately armed with a duelling sword.As far as suggestions to remedy this maybe have duelling swords count as piercing weapons for the swashbuckler? Though this may make duelling swords all but default for the class.
We are. A lot of the issues brought up in this thread will be made clearer and have resolution in the next draft. Thank you all for the feedback.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It warms the cockles of my heart to get to do a playtest and see the devs using stuff! (Even stuff I don't agree with, because I know other people like it.) High fives all around for being cool folks!
I'm looking forward to the possibility of a roguishly handsome Kitsune swashbuckler who goes around in human form and occasionally picks up a feat for another tail so he can charm people magically without giving it away!
I kind of actually like the idea of them getting Weapon Finesse as a feat, and having the benefits opened up to ANY light or one-handed weapon through a class feature. The other class mechanics will, by nature, have people gravitate towards the "optimal" choices of rapier and scimitar, which also seem to be the most thematically appropriate. This would open up a lot of options that might be mechanically worse, but could make for interesting concepts.
A wandering ronin, forsaking the use of his katana until he has found a new lord to serve, but until then making his way through the world with a simple bokken (club).
A dwarven forgemaster whose finesse with his hammer is legendary, who has never suffered a theft in his shop.
Even things as basic as a dashing privateer captain doling out justice on the high seas at the end of his cutlass.
I would make it work just like weapon finesse plus extras as class feature. Or perhaps you can just say it counts as weapon finesse.
Also consider changing level 1 and 2 class features.
Get weapon finesse first and panache at second level.