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I want both too. Your idea of a spontaneous druid with hex like things is pretty cool. I kinda wish the Kobold Press' Shaman took that route rather than Druid + a few other things. Although maybe I need to review that one. I do seem to recall a menu choice option....
Lets explore this for a moment.
We have schools already. Could we have a class that has access to specific schools of spells from different classes?
SGG's Magister/Magus gets access to multiple class spell lists. One is the primary. One is the secondary. The secondary spell list comes into play at 3rd or 4th level, and has a penalty applied to the DCs and CLs, I think.
That *could* work, but the combination of the Cleric and Druid spell list probably makes something resembling the Arcane Spell list, with the cleric's buffs and reactive elements, and the druid's utility and proactive elements.
Still, I know Stephen respects Owen's work, so maybe he'd consider it.
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The ongoing theme in many of these discussions it seems is a call for a unique caster list.
Can we brainstorm a way to do this without huge page count issues, or is that in and of itself an effort in futility?
I think the "oh no, the page count!" is kind of a nonsense issue. The Bloodrager can eat 5 pages with just their bloodlines, twice the number of pages a class like the Brawler uses in total, but there's no room for maybe a page to create a spell list for a class that sort of desperately needs it, thematically?
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I think the "oh no, the page count!" is kind of a nonsense issue. The Bloodrager can eat 5 pages with just their bloodlines, twice the number of pages a class like the Brawler uses in total, but there's no room for maybe a page to create a spell list for a class that sort of desperately needs it, thematically?The ongoing theme in many of these discussions it seems is a call for a unique caster list.
Can we brainstorm a way to do this without huge page count issues, or is that in and of itself an effort in futility?
It was the stated reason, don't know what to tell you. I think they dislike having something that is functionally no content (list of existing stuff) where they could put content.
Also, the fact that spells are different levels for different classes causes spell layout issues.
Yet another reason I long for 1.5...
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A nine-level casting class with a special pet who uses the druid spell list is called a druid.
A nine-level casting class with a special pet who uses the druid spell list is called a druid.
That's more or less how I feel.
I'm curious....what about using the Witch spell list ?
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A nine-level casting class with a special pet who uses the druid spell list is called a druid.
I still think the pet should be replaced with a fetish that acts like a bonded item, but that is just me...
Lets say we do give both spell lists. Cleric and Druid. I think that would be to much power, but, only because of all the extras that come with it. Specifically hexes.
Is it more important to have hexes or either spell list. Because I could see that being a reasonable straight up trade.
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Yes, it really comes down to whether you want a shaman that communes with spirits, like the one presented, or a shaman that's infused with nature.What if you want both? I want both.
+1
Me too.Both lists.
1/2 BAB
D6 HD
No armor or prevented from using anything light armor.
Finally we can get a Divine caster.
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Yes, it really comes down to whether you want a shaman that communes with spirits, like the one presented, or a shaman that's infused with nature.What if you want both? I want both.+1
Me too.
Both lists.
1/2 BAB
D6 HD
No armor or prevented from using anything light armor.
Finally we can get a Divine caster.
That...is actually kind of genius.
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That...is actually kind of genius.Yes, it really comes down to whether you want a shaman that communes with spirits, like the one presented, or a shaman that's infused with nature.What if you want both? I want both.+1
Me too.
Both lists.
1/2 BAB
D6 HD
No armor or prevented from using anything light armor.
Finally we can get a Divine caster.
I'd play that. I'd play that a lot.
Wizard with another spell list and powerful class features. Witch does it quite well, and assuming they fix up shaman hexes I could see it working here.
Edit: Didn't see the last part. May have been edit-sniped, or may have just been stupid
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Kobold Shaman... because apparently they make better Life (Spirit) and Nature (Wandering) Shamans when focusing on Wisdom.
Azzie-Azzie
CN Venerable Male Kobold Shaman 9
STR: 2, DEX: 4, CON: 2, INT: 13, WIS: 21, CHA: 16
Role: Medicine Man of the Verdanthide Tribe
Racial Traits: Crafty, Dragonmaw, Darkvision, Light Sensitivity
HP: 16 (Azzie-Azzie dies when he reaches -21)
AC: 21
Initiative: -4
FORT: +8
WILL: +11
Reflex: +3
BaB: +6/+1
CMD: 12
CMB: 1
Skills: Heal +21, Knowledge (Nature) +13, Knowledge (Religion) +13, Perception +9, Survival +17, Swim +7
Gear: Mithral Breastplate, Necklace of Fireballs VII
Bite +11/+6 (1d4+0)
(Once per day, Azzie-Azzie can deal 1d6 points of additional acid damage with his bite attack.)
Favored Class Bonuses
01 +1 Skill Point
02 +1 HP
03 +1 Skill Point
04 +1 HP
05 +1 Skill Point
06 +1 HP
07 +1 Skillpoint
08 +1 HP
09 +1 Skill Point
Deity: Dahak (Favored Weapon: Bite or Whip)
Spirit: Life
Spirit Hex: Life Sight
Spirit Abilities: Channel, Healer's Touch
Wandering Spirit: Nature
Wandering Spirit Hex: Friend to Animals
Wandering Spirit Ability: Nature's Whispers
Spirit Magic: Speak With Animals (1st), Detect Undead (1st), Barkskin (2nd), Lesser Restoration (2nd), Speak with Plants (3rd), Neutralize Poison (3rd), Grove of Respite (4th), Restoration (4th), Awaken (5th), Breath of Life (5th)
Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (Swim), Spirit Sense
Feats: Draconic Aspect (Green), Channel Smite, Guided Hand, Kobold Confidence, Small But Deadly
Familiar: Pez-Pez the Gecko
Familiar's Spirit: Life (Fast Healing 1)
5th: Commune With Nature, Summon Nature's Ally V
4th: Dispel Magic, Freedom of Movement, Summon Nature's Ally IV
3rd: Meld Into Stone, Lily Pad Stride, Remove Disease, Summon Nature's Ally III
2nd: Greensight, Owl's Wisdom, Soothing Word, Summon Nature's Ally II, Tree Shape
1st: Air Bubble, Alter Winds, Dream Feast, Remove Sickness, Summon Nature's Ally I
Orisons: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Know Direction, Purify Food & Drink
Background: Azzie-Azzie is withered and aged, hes already 72 years old as he stands as a very venerable fossil. He still remains a coward as when he first became a Shaman for his tribe, but its how he has lived and survived to this point from the threats of pink skins. He can handle himself alright in a fight for the most part as age has only made him the wiser and that has made him a better combatant than some old pink skins can claim. He does not fear death although he knows he will soon be greeted by him in another couple of years. What he truly fears is leaving his tribe behind as he passes on. He has finally decided to pass the candle of Shamanism to Mint-Mint, a young female greenscaled kobold who was like the granddaughter that Azzie-Azzie never had. It helps ease his heart a little, but Azzie-Azzie always was a worrier through and through. Azzie-Azzie tends to sleep often in the day, after all he is not as spry as he used to be. His few remaining years left are filled with tending to the sick and scouting for food and intruders alike. He often needs one of the more stronger and younger koblolds to accompany him when he is out and about as he gathers various herbs and meats.
Kobold Confidence
Prerequisites: Charisma 13, kobold.
Benefit: You use your Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom in place of Constitution to determine your bonus to Fortitude saves and your maximum negative hit points before death. Once this choice has been made, it can’t be changed.
Small But Deadly
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus or natural weapon, Small size or smaller.
Benefit: You ignore your Strength penalty to damage when making attacks with your racial natural weapons and weapons for which you have the Weapon Focus feat.
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I'd like to see it be a spontaneous caster if they're going to move it in the druid direction.Agreed. Cant say that I like the currently spellcasting system, it feels clunky and low level shamans are underpowered (until the wandering mechanic kicks in) when compared to clerics and oracles of the same level.
My suggestion would be to give the shaman the oracle's spontaneous casting system while being able to choose known spells from: druid / witch lists or druid / cleric lists. The wandering spirit's spells would enter your list of spells known temporarily.
Love this idea. I was really hoping the shaman would cast spontaneously from the druid spell list to begin with. Add in some shapeshifting but no animal companion, and Christmas comes early for me. =)
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Boom, headshot.
I will admit the Concept is viable. But not with "Shaman" as the name.
Historically shamen wore whatever garments (Including armor) that their tribe wore.
The celtic druids (Which are really just the tribe's shamen) wore the same armor their bretheren wore in battle.
Which was either a leather version of Lorica Segmenta... which is actually where Lorica Segmenta came from. Seeing as the romans stole it from the celts and made it out of metal instead of cured hides.
Or they went into battle buck naked... like their clansmen.
I think shaman's HD and armor/profs are good. Its the spell list that needs work.
Though priest would be a good idea in the future.
Agreed....
As much as I hate the use of the term "shaman", because it bring a lot of misinformation to peoples minds...as a generic term, it's the best name I can think of.
Having said that, I would rather see the class go in a more "folk lore" based direction. Leave communing with animals and nature to the Druid class.
Base the class strongly on gaining aid from helpful spirits, and fighting/repelling harmful spirits.
Scandinavian VarYlokkur...or "Spirit chanter" (Also where the Gaelic term Warlock comes from), as well as the Siberian Sami (where the term "shaman" comes from).
This would include Outsiders, undead, Fey, un-bodied (incorporeal) beings, and possibly even some magical beasts.
Also many cultural specialists of this kind focused strongly on combating witches and "evil" magic for the clan/tribe...African "Witch Doctors", Hungarian Taltos, etc...etc...
It probably does require a specialized list the more I think on it...
Dump the familiar in favor of an Arcane bond "fetish" that also functions as a "badge of office" in his specific culture....
And the rest of the class is pretty good as is in my opinion.
The celtic druids (Which are really just the tribe's shamen) wore the same armor their bretheren wore in battle.
Not specifically correct....
Although specialists that practiced skills modern folk would term as "shamanic" where part of the Druid (plu) cast, just as the Bards where....not all, or even the majority of the cast practiced those skills.They had specific sub-titles (again like Bard) to designate specific area's of focus and skill.
I'd play that. I'd play that a lot.That...is actually kind of genius.Yes, it really comes down to whether you want a shaman that communes with spirits, like the one presented, or a shaman that's infused with nature.What if you want both? I want both.+1
Me too.
Both lists.
1/2 BAB
D6 HD
No armor or prevented from using anything light armor.
Finally we can get a Divine caster.
I'd also play that pretty hard core.
Boom, headshot.
I will admit the Concept is viable. But not with "Shaman" as the name.
Historically shamen wore whatever garments (Including armor) that their tribe wore.
The celtic druids (Which are really just the tribe's shamen) wore the same armor their bretheren wore in battle.
Which was either a leather version of Lorica Segmenta... which is actually where Lorica Segmenta came from. Seeing as the romans stole it from the celts and made it out of metal instead of cured hides.
Or they went into battle buck naked... like their clansmen.
I think shaman's HD and armor/profs are good. Its the spell list that needs work.
Though priest would be a good idea in the future.
I'd definitely be happy with a 3/4th armored shaman too (provided it's spells are right -- and the druid list on its own isn't the answer), but I disagree that Shaman needs to be armored. Shaman is a cross-cultural enough term* that it's got a lot of leeway in terms of how it plays, so long as spirits remain a core part of the class's features and spells. The class doesn't need to be the perfect historical shaman for Culture X, it needs to hit the right notes flavorfuly and work mechanically. I can imagine Shamans in armor, and I can imagine them without, so yay either way. I can't imagine Shamans with the druid spell list on its own, which at least as of the blog post seems to be where they're headed.
*I know there are upthread disagreements about this. I'm choosing to ignore them.
I'd definitely be happy with a 3/4th armored shaman too (provided it's spells are right -- and the druid list on its own isn't the answer), but I disagree that Shaman needs to be armored. Shaman is a cross-cultural enough term* that it's got a lot of leeway in terms of how it plays, so long as spirits remain a core part of the class's features and spells. The class doesn't need to be the perfect historical shaman for Culture X, it needs to hit the right notes flavorfuly and work mechanically. I can imagine Shamans in armor, and I can imagine them without, so yay either way. I can't imagine Shamans with the druid spell list on its own, which at least as of the blog post seems to be where they're headed.
*I know there are up thread disagreements about this. I'm choosing to ignore them.
I agree....
I'm more concerned with the spell list...and the more I think on it, the more I'm convinced that the Druid list doesn't cut it.
It's too focused on plants and animals....and not focused enough on the type of beings that are generally thought of as "spirits" in most cultures.
I'm almost inclined to think the Cleric spell list is the better route to take...but with some additions.
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I have admittedly been focusing more on the Arcanist thread....
So I'm feeling all "turned about" on this thread...
What exactly was the argument for not using the Cleric spell list again ???
It's chalk full of spells dealing with undead and outsiders...which are two of the main categories of beings that all cultures view as "spirits".
It has healing spells.
It has spells for dealing with "evil" spell effects...(possession, compulsion,curses, etc...etc...)
About the only thing it may not address well (I have to take a look at it again to be sure) is land wights or "nature spirits".
So what's the issue ???
Some people said they wanted the druid list.
TBH, I can't remember if there were any actual reasons stated.
Some people said they wanted the druid list.
TBH, I can't remember if there were any actual reasons stated.
LOL....wonderful :)
Can't help but wonder how much of this is based on new age "image" marketing and propaganda.
I'm sure there were some reasons. I just can't remember any strong ones.
to be fair, I've built fighters that never went past chain shirts... and one paladin... I wouldn't recommend the light armor paladin. He died quite horribly in the mouth of a shogoth. Well if you can consider it a "Mouth".
I think they should be hard limited to medium or light though.
As far as the spells go... I'm still going to push for a hybrid witch/cleric/druid list. Sort of a greatest hits that fit with the concept.
OK...so to be fair, let's try for something productive from this starting point....
What is the Cleric spell list lacking...that you feel the Shaman spell list needs ???
I can see maybe adding some of the "curse" descriptor spells...
The strongest argument I remember from upthread was that some of the elemental spirit hexes (I seem to remember Crashing Waves) required the ability to deal elemental damage to function, which the Cleric list doesn't really get. I'd say that's a problem with the spirit (it should either come packaged with everything it needs to work, or remove those hexes in place of something that works), but some people felt otherwise.
What is the Cleric spell list lacking...that you feel the Shaman spell list needs ???
Several lists were posted upthread. Protection from alignment, remove curse, augury, and hide from undead are popular ones to list first.
Several lists were posted upthread. Protection from alignment, remove curse, augury, and hide from undead are popular ones to list first.
What is the Cleric spell list lacking...that you feel the Shaman spell list needs ???
I think he was asking for a list of Druid spells that the shaman needs, not cleric spells. Don't remember any from up there.
The strongest argument I remember from upthread was that some of the elemental spirit hexes (I seem to remember Crashing Waves) required the ability to deal elemental damage to function, which the Cleric list doesn't really get. I'd say that's a problem with the spirit (it should either come packaged with everything it needs to work, or remove those hexes in place of something that works), but some people felt otherwise.
Perhaps it's the hexes that are to "shoe horned" into elemental ideas ???
I know that when I read through the different spirits available...I didn't see a single one other than lore that I would consider taking.
I was waiting for Ancestors, outsider themed, and fey themed spirits :P
As an aside....if they ditched the familiar...which I hope they do....
What about adding the spirit familiar ability directly to the shaman ???
Several lists were posted upthread. Protection from alignment, remove curse, augury, and hide from undead are popular ones to list first.
What is the Cleric spell list lacking...that you feel the Shaman spell list needs ???
Already Cleric spells....
What is the Cleric list MISSING ???
Nothing, really. Longstrider, some of the animal spells would be nice.
I am really more interested in differentiating the shaman from the druid. Like, big time. Having a witch's familiar type creature instead of a curse is plenty of differentiation from the oracle. That's the high concept. In my mind, everything else that differentiates it should be the shaman's unique features.
Isn't having revela— er, uh, "hexes" instead of wilsdhape plenty of differentiation from the druid? I think that's a more noticeable difference than the familiar-for-curse, at least. Then again, it might not actually feel that different when playing it, I'll have to try it out.
Personally, when I playtested the class as-is, I basically felt like I was playing an oracle. The familiar's impact was negligible and the hexes are mostly revelations witch a different number of uses/day, if they were changed at all. The Witch side of the class feels practically non-existent and going to the druid list won't help with that, but it would at least make the class feel like oracle+druid instead of oracle+more oracle.
Also requires a pretty substantial INT to work well (16 by 11th level, 19 by 17th), and is the only hex that does that. Chances are you'll need at least a 14 unless you want to spend an inordinate amount of WBL on headbands, which means your sacrificing either 4th level bonuses that could be going into WIS, or between 1/3 and 1/5 of your points during character creation. Either way, chances are you're losing your otherwise perfectly reasonable melee capabilities.
The spirit from which one gets Arcane Enlightenment gives an inherent bonus to intelligence, though. That sort of takes the bite out of the ability-score requirement. Especially since I don't think losing a couple points of strength are as detrimental to mêlée capability as wide-open access to the sorcerer/wizard list on top of another list is beneficial to spell-casting capability, not to mention that the ability-score switch adds a few skill ranks every level, too. Moreover, I don't think the price of a +2 int item (which is all you'd need) is "inordinate" by the level at which it would become necessary.
That's more or less how I feel.
I'm curious....what about using the Witch spell list ?
As long as spells known were limited, I wouldn't see a problem with it. Using revelations in place of hexes and having higher HD/BAB would differentiate it from the Witch.
Perhaps it's the hexes that are to "shoe horned" into elemental ideas ???
I know that when I read through the different spirits available...I didn't see a single one other than lore that I would consider taking.
I was waiting for Ancestors, outsider themed, and fey themed spirits :P
As an aside....if they ditched the familiar...which I hope they do....
What about adding the spirit familiar ability directly to the shaman ???
I'm in favor of keeping the cleric list (at least as a base, potentially augmented), so I dunno if I'm the best to argue the first bit. It does feel odd that they're hitting elements before ancestors.
To the aside, some of the familiar abilities are too powerful to put on a first-level character. Don't remember where it was, but somebody mentioned playtestiting a shaman with max constitution which took a goat familiar, and the stone spirit. It chomped its way through some first-level APs with DR 5/Adamantine. Put that on a player and the same thing will happen without need for the silliness of maxing CON on a caster.
Edit to above: Didn't see the inherent bonus. That is a problem. That said, I hold that without it it costs a lot of gold to keep up. Multi-stat headbands are expensive, and if you're sacrificing WIS for INT you've just paid for the stat in a different way.
Isn't having revela— er, uh, "hexes" instead of wilsdhape plenty of differentiation from the druid? I think that's a more noticeable difference than the familiar-for-curse, at least. Then again, it might not actually feel that different when playing it, I'll have to try it out.
Personally, when I playtested the class as-is, I basically felt like I was playing an oracle. The familiar's impact was negligible and the hexes are mostly revelations witch a different number of uses/day, if they were changed at all. The Witch side of the class feels practically non-existent and going to the druid list won't help with that, but it would at least make the class feel like oracle+druid instead of oracle+more oracle.
I think that is where the bigger problem lays.
The current "hexes" feel like replicas of the Oracle mysteries.The hexes need to be re-focused along the lines of more traditional abilities linked to the different cultural specialists collectively referred to as "shamans".
They need to focus on dealing with the different kinds of beings referred to as "spirits", breaking or counter acting existing Witch hexes, and protecting allies (as opposed to de-buffing enemies).
THEN you have a Shaman.
What is the Cleric spell list lacking...that you feel the Shaman spell list needs ???
I can see maybe adding some of the "curse" descriptor spells...
Nature spells.
I want elemental, weather, animal, plant, and shapeshifting spells.
Frosbite, Entangle, Flaming Sphere, Call Lightning, Animal Messenger, Beast Shape, Plant Growth, etc.
I actually don't understand why people are mentioning Longstrider--it's a good spell, but doesn't feel especially shamany.
I also think people are looking at "spirits" as outsiders, incorporeal undead, and other monsters, whereas I'm looking at "spirits" as concepts with no game-translation. They have no stat-blocks and are not "creatures," they are background entities.
So, I see calling lightning as interacting with nature spirits. I see something like Planar Ally, however, to have absolutely nothing to do with spirits, but rather to be interacting with a literal creature from another plane.
So, I see calling lightning as interacting with nature spirits. I see something like Planar Ally, however, to have absolutely nothing to do with spirits, but rather to be interacting with a literal creature from another plane.
You can say that, but then there's no reason I can't say that Planar Ally is interacting with spirits of transportation. Maybe my dead Grampa who owned a ferry.
Literally any spell effect can be fluffed as "spirits did it", but some effects are more natural fits for a spirit-themed caster than others. Off the top of my head, I can think of Spiritual Ally, Spiritual Weapon, Helping hand, and Soulbind from the cleric list which are perfect fits. I can't think of any druid exclusives that feel the same.
Wizard with another spell list and powerful class features. Witch does it quite well, and assuming they fix up shaman hexes I could see it working here.
Witch actually flounders around like a beheaded chicken imo. Most hexes are just awful for the witch class, and its spell list is pretty meh compared to its counterparts. Luckily there are a few gems in it to keep it functional, but really its not a good example of a class to look up to imo.
Nature spells.
I want elemental, weather, animal, plant, and shapeshifting spells.Frosbite, Entangle, Flaming Sphere, Call Lightning, Animal Messenger, Beast Shape, Plant Growth, etc.
I actually don't understand why people are mentioning Longstrider--it's a good spell, but doesn't feel especially shamany.
So, I see calling lightning as interacting with nature spirits
OK...so how many of those are not already available to Clerics ?
Or...how many could be assigned to "spirits" ?I see something like Planar Ally, however, to have absolutely nothing to do with spirits, but rather to be interacting with a literal creature from another plane.
Which by most cultures definition is a spirit...
In most cultures, spirit does not strictly imply non material...it implies non-mortal.I also think people are looking at "spirits" as outsiders, incorporeal undead, and other monsters, whereas I'm looking at "spirits" as concepts with no game-translation. They have no stat-blocks and are not "creatures," they are background entities.
Outsiders, Fey, Undead, etc...are by most cultures definition..."spirits".
A "no game" translation....doesn't easily fit into a game mechanic in the first place ;)
Interesting links that most people no longer think about....
The "dead" bring storms and cold with them (which is why our traditional "horror" movies always feature storms, cold, and lightning)....It's also why the winter months are associated with the dead....and interestingly when "ghost hunters" see a big spike in activity.
The land wights (fey) can both blast the grain, and turn animals violent, as well as take the form of animals.
So spirits like "ancestors" could easily grant cold or electric based spells.....
Fey spirits could both cause growth, and blight plant-life.
Actual folk lore accounts for just about any combination you could think of ;)
You can say that, but then there's no reason I can't say that Planar Ally is interacting with spirits of transportation. Maybe my dead Grampa who owned a ferry.
I also don't really see your Grampa as a spirit so much as a ghost.
But really, this is coming down to feel. I'm sorry that I don't think pulling angels and demons from other planes has a "spirit" feel to it--it just doesn't to me.
Literally any spell effect can be fluffed as "spirits did it",
I disagree. I just don't see summoning creatures of any kind to be especially spirity, nor do I see alignment type stuff as relating to spirits since I see them as fundamentally neutral.
but some effects are more natural fits for a spirit-themed caster than others. Off the top of my head, I can think of Spiritual Ally, Spiritual Weapon, Helping hand, and Soulbind from the cleric list which are perfect fits. I can't think of any druid exclusives that feel the same.
Spiritual Ally is definitely spirity. Spiritual Weapon is kind of, but since it ties to a deity, it feels less so.
Helping Hand could go either way, but I definitely don't agree that Soul Bind feels spirit-related at all. That's soul-related--very different in feel to me.
And I never denied many Cleric spells are important. I only argued that many Druid spells are important, too.
OK...so how many of those are not already available to Clerics ?
I don't think any of the spells I listed specifically are available. I actually provided a list upthread of spells from 1st-3rd level from each list that I though were sufficiently spirity.
Or...how many could be assigned to "spirits" ?
Spirits do not contain enough room for the basic effects that Shaman's should be able to accomplish, notable elemental and weather control (like frostbite/frostfall/flaming sphere/call lightning). I think the Shaman should be a fundamentally more aggressive spellcaster than the Cleric, for example, and they should be doing it with elemental spells, not with alignment spells like the cleric does it.
Which by most cultures definition is a spirit...
In most cultures, spirit does not strictly imply non material...it implies non-mortal.
We're talking feel, here, aren't we? Those things don't feel like spirits to me. They feel like things I can punch out and kill in the world. I can stab a demon. Not a spirit. I can kick a ghost in the face--not a spirit. Spirits should be metaphysical, not actual literal things.
If I get my power from spirits, and ghosts are spirits and I can kill or command ghosts, why can't someone kill or command my wandering spirits?
Outsiders, Fey, Undead, etc...are by most cultures definition..."spirits".
I don't agree with that, but it also doesn't really matter. We're talking about feel, and those don't feel like spirits to me--it feels like you're broadening the feel of spirits way too much.
A "no game" translation....doesn't easily fit into a game mechanic in the first place ;)
That's kind of the point of a "no game" translation. I don't want the spirits to have a game mechanic beyond giving me spells. I want them to exist in some ephemeral, non-interactive state like deities do.
Spirits do not contain enough room for the basic effects that Shaman's should be able to accomplish, notable elemental and weather control (like frostbite/frostfall/flaming sphere/call lightning). I think the Shaman should be a fundamentally more aggressive spellcaster than...
See above...from a folk lore standpoint...that's simply not true.
I don't agree with that, but it also doesn't really matter. We're talking about feel, and those don't feel like spirits to me--it feels like you're broadening the feel of spirits way too much.
I'm using the traditional definition that all cultures I have researched use (all European, Native American,and many Asian cultures) :)
That's kind of the point of a "no game" translation. I don't want the spirits to have a game mechanic beyond giving me spells. I want them to exist in some ephemeral, non-interactive state like deities do.
So it sounds more like you want Vestiges ?
So it sounds more like you want Vestiges ?
No, vestiges are weirdly defined things with backstories and all. They are specific entities.
(And from an out of game standpoint, despite how much I loved the Binder class, I find it uncomfortable that the vestiges were all named after demons from the Lesser Key of Solomon)
I don't want specific entities, I want "spirits." I want them to be a general concept of spirits as non-physical, non-game forces of nature in the material plane. If you're familiar with 4e, I would say it should be like the Primal Spirits in that setting. They should not be any more interactable than deities--they should be things of ambiguous power and resource that you get power from but that you can't actually beat up and take stuff from, and they should be tied to the natural, material world and elemental/naturey stuff, not get involved in the cosmological alignment wars or deal with non-elemental extraplanar creatures (and I wish elementals were just animated natural forces rather than being from another plane anyway).
Consider a contemporary example...
A few months ago a white "spirit moose" was killed by three hunters here in America...who then proudly displayed it's hide on the net.
The local native tribe was outraged by both the death of a sacred spirit (rightfully so IMO), and the blatant pride these hunters showed at killing a sacred animal.
I don't know of any culture that holds to your perception of "spirit".
I would rather see a definition of spirit that can actually be accounted for within game mechanics, as opposed to something that can not.
I don't know of any culture that holds to your perception of "spirit".
And I don't know of any culture capable of casting vancian magic.
I would rather see a definition of spirit that can actually be accounted for within game mechanics, as opposed to something that can not.
If spirits were literal in game entities I could screw with, then a PC Shaman could be screwed over by messing with their spirits directly. It'd be like if a group of Gunslingers could go shoot Shelyn and no clerics of Shelyn could cast spells anymore. Or if the concept of "arcane spell" ran around in the wild and you could beat it up and stop wizards from working. This is problematic for me.
Having spirit moose getting hunted is cool, but given the way the Shaman class casts spells, it is not really game-able. I would run a setting like that using another game system with gusto, however (and have, actually, several times).
I don't want specific entities, I want "spirits." I want them to be a general concept of spirits as non-physical, non-game forces of nature in the material plane.
As someone who follows a tradition that is considered to have many "shamanistic" elements.....I can assure you that spirits are rather specific....and only sometimes are "non-physical".
I guess I would rather see them as game forces...otherwise, they are irrelevant.
A Shaman is someone who "should" be able to screw with spirits...otherwise there is no point in the class concept in the first place.
If they are regulated to nothing more than a Witch patron....the class looses any point for being in the first place.
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My idea: What if you could summon your Spirit or Wandering Spirit to help out, acting like a sort of banner-effect for your allies while it ghosts around.
*It has hits points
*It takes a standard action to Summon it or Unsummon it.
*It can be summoned only a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier, minimum 1.
*If it gets slain you lose access to your Spirit Magic class feature for 24 hours.
*You gain this ability at level 8.
*While your Spirit is summoned, the Shaman does not have access to their Spirit Magic.
Hit Points: (Xd8 + your CHA mod, X = your HD)
AC/Touch/F-F: (10 + your WIS mod + 1/2 your level)
Move Speed: Fly 10 (Perfect)
Spiritual Effect: Allies within 30 feet of this Spirit get fast healing 1. At level 12 your allies get fast healing 2. At level 16 your allies get fast healing 3. At level 20 your allies get fast healing 4.
Incorporeal: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
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I want both too. Your idea of a spontaneous druid with hex like things is pretty cool. I kinda wish the Kobold Press' Shaman took that route rather than Druid + a few other things. Although maybe I need to review that one. I do seem to recall a menu choice option....
The Kobold Press Shaman is a spontaneous caster that uses the druid spell list. It has an animal spirit guide and may chose from a large number of Totem powers as the class advances in levels (I'm assuming that's the menu choice option you refer to?)
Link provided (sorry, I'm on my phone or I would have made the link active)
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tzn/reviews?New-Paths-2-The-Expanded-Shaman# tabs