Overall, I think that this class works well, with the exception that some of the spirit powers need to be reviewed for balance (e.g., the Greater Spirit Power for Life).
I don't see the Druid spell list fitting this class too well, the animal and plant oriented spells (Calm Animals, Detect Animal/Plant, etc) don't seem to match the orientation toward spirits as well as the Cleric class's necromantic oriented spells (e.g., Detect Undead).
I think that it would be reasonable to make casting Charisma based, since in many cultures the idea of shamanic magic was convincing spirits to do what was requested. Wisdom based casting also works.
There's also a lot of "performance" in the more interesting examples of Shamanism from pop culture which would also lean towards Charisma-based. Of course, I also have the ulterior motive of trying to get Shaman to be a spontaneous version of the Druid, but that's beside the point. ;)
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The shaman-with-druid spells, the class that's all about spirits, can't suppress spirits that are possessing someone. And they aren't as effective as clerics would be at dispelling the manifestations of spirits, since they get dispel magic as a 4th level spell.
That's...not right. And I think a re-evaluation of the Druid spell list is in order.
They both have spells that fit. But the cleric has the spells the can effectively deal with spirits, as that was sort of his domain up until now.
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The shaman-with-druid spells, the class that's all about spirits, can't suppress spirits that are possessing someone. And they aren't as effective as clerics would be at dispelling the manifestations of spirits, since they get dispel magic as a 4th level spell.
That's...not right. And I think a re-evaluation of the Druid spell list is in order.
They both have spells that fit. But the cleric has the spells the can effectively deal with spirits, as that was sort of his domain up until now.
This is probably an overly complicated solution, but are there domains/mysteries with spells that we could also include on the spell list.
Realistically how many spells are we adding? Could it be the druid spell list plus "X" spells.
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Heres a list Ciretose
Protection from Blank
Circle of Prot from Blank
Spiritual Weapon
Spiritual Ally
Detect Undead (If you can't find the spirits, your not much of a shaman eh)
Ancestral Communion (Nice spell, from a splat book though. Tons of flavor)
Little to no Divination spells are on the Druid List, so you can't commune with the "Spirits" on great mysteries.
Speak with Dead so you can't even talk to them unless your a cleric.
Tons more, I only looked at the first couple of levels.
I can't imagine how much better the Shaman is served by the Druid list. I can talk to animals now. Woo!
There's definitely a lot of important spirit related utility missing from the Druid list, but there's a lot of nature/weather magic missing from the Cleric list.
I know people are more apt to complain about missing a critical buff/removal spell like Protection from Evil (which really is important) or Remove Curse/Dispel/etc., but I'd be kind of bummed to have a Shaman that couldn't make plants grow, summon dangerous weather, shapeshift into animals, or call up insect swarms and stuff.
I think the best solution is a unique spell list, but I understand the hesitance to do that, so I think the best bet would be the Druid list with some specific cleric spells added to it.
Shapeshifting does fit fairly well with my idea of a shaman, yea.
I am definitely in favor of a merging of the two. Whether that's new spell list or <X> classes' spell list + <Y> spells, I don't care much.
I think there are some stat-consequences of using the druid spell list, thanks for the more offensive spells, but seems like the shaman should bridge the gap.
Isn't that what they're about anyways? Bridging the gap between the spiritual world and the natural world?
On the flip side, I'd rather like a Cleric list with some druid spells mixed in.
Clerics already get Control Weather. In fact at the same time Druids do.
So I think what this really is about whether we want the Shaman to be more nature oriented.
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How difficult would it be to give them the Druid list but then also give them access to a specific subset of cleric spells? Is there a specific list of spell subtypes or descriptors that could successfully lump all or the majority of the spells they want onto the class, like giving them the druid list but also allowing them to all spells from the Cleric list with the [Necromancy] descriptor, for example? Or giving them access to a specific set of Domain spells?
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At a minimum, I would want to see Prot GELC, Bestow Curse, Remove Curse, Magic circle, augury, divination, commune, planar ally, align weapon, spiritual weapon, and astral projection. I think a shaman, regardless of spirit, should be able to do all of those.
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Here's a list of the first three levels of cleric spells I think a strong case can be made for.
1st level:
Bane
Bless
Comprehend Languages
Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos
Detect Undead
Doom
Hide From Undead
Inflict Light Wounds
Magic Weapon
Moment of Greatness
Murderous Command (fits due to the thought of the spirit possessing them)
Protection from Evil/Good/Law/Chaos
Remove Fear
Sanctify Corpse
2nd Level:
Aid
Animate Dead, Lesser
Augury
Calm Emotions
Compassionate Ally
Consecrate?
Cure Moderate Wounds
Deathknell
Delay Pain
Desecrate?
Gentle Repose
Ghost Bane Dirge
Heroic Fortune
Hold Person
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Protection from Evil/Good/Law/Chaos, Communal
Remove Paralysis
Lesser Restoration
Silence
Spiritual Weapon
Status
Zone of Truth
3rd level:
Agonize
Animate Dead
Blindness/Deafness
Blood Biography
Chain of Perdition
Continual Flame
Cure Serious Wounds
Create Food And Water?
Dispel Magic
Glyph of Warding
Helping Hand
Inflict Serious Wounds
Invisibility Purge
Ki Leech? (Why do clerics get that anyways?)
Locate Object
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Magic Vestment
Obscure Object
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse (Shaman's can't remove curses!!!!!)
Remove Disease
Sands of Time
Speak with Dead
Symbol of Healing
I'd be interested if mplindustries wanted to do the same thing, with an eye towards the druid list.
My druid list:
Longstride, summon nature's ally, speak with animals
And that's about it. :)
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I can understand a desire to limit the shaman's Spirits to associated mysteries from the APG... but Ancestors is easily the most thematically appropriate mystery/spirit for this class, but isn't an option. I think it should be.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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We noted that at mid-levels, the Shaman's familiar could deliver Cleric touch spells, which was very useful. There are other ways for a character to get that ability -- rods, a precise set of feats -- but the Shaman gets it for free.
Also, after a couple of hours, we started refering to the character as a(the 3.5 class) Binder, and that stuck fast.
I can understand a desire to limit the shaman's Spirits to associated mysteries from the APG... but Ancestors is easily the most thematically appropriate mystery/spirit for this class, but isn't an option. I think it should be.
These are just the options they're giving us to playtest, but that doesn't mean they're all the options. We've got enough variety to muck about with the class and various builds. Feedback on power, utility, and the like will let them know how to get the others working without offering too many options and diluting the feedback pool.
I'd be interested if mplindustries wanted to do the same thing, with an eye towards the druid list.
Fair enough, but keep in mind that my real desire for the Shaman is and always has been, a Charisma based spontaneous caster with the druid list and hexes/revelations instead of wildshape.
Ok, Druid spells with a Shaman feel (I starred the spells I would most want as a Shaman.):
Pretty much every spell with the word "Animal" in it, even though, excepting Call Animal and Animal Messenger they're pretty weak and I'd probably never use them personally, and all the Summon Nature's Ally spells.
1st level
Alter Winds, Aspect of the Falcon, Entangle*, Expeditious Excavation, Faerie Fire, Frostbite*, Goodberry, Hydraulic Push, Keen Senses, Longstrider, Magic Fang, Pass without Trace, Produce Flame*, Shillelagh, Stone Fist
2nd level
Accelerate Poison, Animal Aspect, Animal Messenger* (just listed so I can star it because I like it so much), Aspect of the Bear, Barkskin*, Burning Gaze* (for the familiar), Carry Companion, Chill Metal, Defoliate, Determine Depth, Eagle Eye, Feast of Ashes, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere*, Fog Cloud, Forest Friend, Frigid Touch*, Frost Fall, Glide, Greensight, Gust of Wind*, Heat Metal, Pernicious Poison, Pox Pustules, Slipstream, Soften Earth and Stone, Spider Climb, Stone Call*, Tar Ball, Tree Shape, Unshakable Chill, Warp Wood, Wilderness Soldiers, Wood Shape
3rd level
Greater Animal Aspect, Ape Walk, Aqueous Orb*, Ash Storm, Burrow, Burst of Nettles, Call Lighting*, Cloak of Winds, Cup of Dust, Diminish Plants, Fungal Infestation, Heatstroke, Hurricane Blast, Hydraulic Torrent, Ice Spears, Lily Pad Stride, Mad Monkeys, Greater Magic Fang, Nature's Exile, Plant Growth*, Pup Shape, Quench, Rain of Frogs, Sheet Lightning, Shifting Sand, Sleet Storm, Snare, Speak with Plants, Communal Spider Climb, Spike Growth*, Spit Venom, and Vengeful Comets
And this doesn't count all those spells I think they should have at druid levels rather than cleric levels (like Poison and Neutralize Poison).
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Yea, I think this is a case of us wanting different things then...
Yea, I think this is a case of us wanting different things then...
Maybe--I do kind of disagree with some of your choices above. If it helps see where I'm coming from, I can list the Cleric spells I'd want added to the Druid list:
Pretty much every Remove X spell that Druids don't get.
1st level
Bane, Bless, Cause Fear, Command, Comprehend Languages, Deathwatch, Divine Favor, Doom, Dream Feast, Embrace Destiny, Forbid Action, Haze of Dreams, Hide from Undead, Murderous Command, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
2nd Level
Aid, Ancestral Communion, Lesser Animate Dead, Augury, Calm Emotions, Consecrate, Death Knell, Defending Bone, Desecrate, Ghostbane Dirge, Hold Person, Communal Protection from Evil, Spiritual Weapon, Zone of Truth
3rd level
Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Locate Object, Magic Circle Against Evil, Prayer, Sands of Time, Speak with Dead, and Symbol of Healing
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Yea, I think this is a case of us wanting different things then...It is a matter of do you want to focus on the nature or the spirit aspect.
I smell an opportunity for an Archtype that has the cleric spell list :)
Given that the druid list is nature priest while the cleric list is generic priest, I'd think the other way around would make more sense. In AD&D, Druid was a "subclass" (term used loosely) of cleric for the same reason.
Though I suppose it depends on if you view nature shamans as THE shaman, or just one type. My mind immediately jumps to Wu when I think of Shamans, and they definitely cast as clerics when ported to d20.
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I'd like to see it be a spontaneous caster if they're going to move it in the druid direction.
Agreed. Cant say that I like the currently spellcasting system, it feels clunky and low level shamans are underpowered (until the wandering mechanic kicks in) when compared to clerics and oracles of the same level.
My suggestion would be to give the shaman the oracle's spontaneous casting system while being able to choose known spells from: druid / witch lists or druid / cleric lists. The wandering spirit's spells would enter your list of spells known temporarily.
What if having the cleric or druid spell list depended upon your primary spirit? Life spirit - cleric, Nature - druid, ect?
Interesting suggestion, you could also toss the witch list in depending on the spirit. Or the shaman could choose his spell list between the three of them at lvl one and stuck with it for the rest of his career.
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Yea, I think this is a case of us wanting different things then...It is a matter of do you want to focus on the nature or the spirit aspect.
I smell an opportunity for an Archtype that has the cleric spell list :)
I agree - then everybody can get what they want, if you want to go with a cleric theme you can, or if you want to go with a druid theme you can.
Everybody wins!
Maybe there could also be spontaneous and prepared casting archetypes as well!
Should this really be something that can be taken with Wandering Hex? Because it effectively lets a high level Shaman choose any wizard/sorcerer spell they need for the day, and it's actually much better as a Wandering Hex then as a normal hex.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought this. The hexes in general seem a little wonky, but this one really reads as exploitable.
I'll also agree that this class feels like 95% oracle and 5% witch or thereabouts. Other than the word "hex" and the familiar, it's pretty much all oracle.
I've gotta agree with others. The druid spell list is very clearly lacking when it comes to some of the spirits. Taking the Bones spirit seems to be pretty obviously focused toward necromancy, and there are no such spells in the druid spell list. The same could go for the cleric spell list, I'm sure.
This is one of the only classes that I feel needs its own spell list.
I can't help but feel that drawing from the druid spell list is a bad idea for the shaman class. Most of the nature spells a shaman should want are already attainable with the use of wander spirit class feature and the wind, wave, stone, and nature spirits. Going tot he druid spell list is a step too far.
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I'm more and more thinking there should be an irreversible choice at level one determining your skill list. Both options would have associated spirits but I don't think it should limit the selection of your main spirit, could affect Wandering Spirit though. Spirits in parenthesis are from mysteries released after the APG. I left out Dark Tapestry, Outer Rifts and Spellscar because I don't think they fit.
Option 1: You venerate the spirits of your ancestors. Get access to the Cleric spell list.
Associated Spirits: Battle, Bone, Life, Lore (Ancestor, Juju, Metal, Occult, Time)
Option 2: You venerate the spirits of nature. Get access to the Druid spell list.
Associated Spirits: Flame, Heavens, Life, Nature, Stone, Waves, Wind (Lunar, Time, Winter, Wood)
I added Life(& Time) to both lists as a case could be made for both.
In addition I think all Divination spells listed on both the Cleric or the Druid lists should be available.
EDIT: If you really want to push things you could even say that they get all Orisons from both lists. (Push as in how complicated it gets, not power)
I'm more and more thinking there should be an irreversible choice at level one determining your skill list. Both options would have associated spirits but I don't think it should limit the selection of your main spirit, could affect Wandering Spirit though. Spirits in parenthesis are from mysteries released after the APG. I left out Dark Tapestry, Outer Rifts and Spellscar because I don't think they fit.
Option 1: You venerate the spirits of your ancestors. Get access to the Cleric spell list.
Associated Spirits: Battle, Bone, Life, Lore (Ancestor, Juju, Metal, Occult, Time)Option 2: You venerate the spirits of nature. Get access to the Druid spell list.
Associated Spirits: Flame, Heavens, Life, Nature, Stone, Waves, Wind (Lunar, Time, Winter, Wood)
...
I really like this idea. While I think the Druid-Spelllist fits the Shaman better ( or at least fits the shaman I personally envision better), I can understand why some would prefer the cleric list.
Another possibility would be to grant the Shaman access to some of the Spirit-relevant cleric Spells (Protection from whatever, spiritual Ally, ect.) by giving these spells to one of his spirits. Ancestors would be a good fit, since an Ancestor Spirit is missing from the class anyway.
I can see a cleric-casting Ancestor/Nature shaman. I like the idea. Only, is not the cleric list more powerful and versatile than the druid's?
Only, is not the cleric list more powerful and versatile than the druid's?
On the whole I'd say yes, but it's close enough to a wash that I wouldn't consider it a balancing factor. Druid gets some low-level gems that clerics don't (namely, Engtangle and Soften Earth and Stone), which can make playing 1-5 (the meh levels) as a dedicated caster a bit nicer. Even at higher levels, there's always something that druids get spell-wise which clerics would like. (Fwiw, given the non-spellcasting toys that druids get, I prefer them to clerics.)
I think the good part about using the druid list is that it differentiates the class from the oracle, somewhat, and my biggest problem from the class aside from a few balance issues is that it just feels much too much like an oracle.
That said, there are still some pretty serious problems with the hexes.
On the one end of the spectrum, Arcane Enlightenment[i] as a wandering hex is basically "add every spell on the sorcerer/wizard list to your spells known." On the other end, [i]Lure of the Heavens gives you fly for minutes/day a full three levels after the spirit which grants that hex has already granted overland flight.
There has to be a way to make it so you have to pick the same spells every time you take it as a wandering hex (except for changes as allowed when it's a regular hex), right? Editing can make that make sense.
It still leaves a lot of the other hexes in the dust, that way. Even as a regular hex, it comes off as ridiculous when juxtaposed with Lure of the Heavens or Gravesight.
Also requires a pretty substantial INT to work well (16 by 11th level, 19 by 17th), and is the only hex that does that. Chances are you'll need at least a 14 unless you want to spend an inordinate amount of WBL on headbands, which means your sacrificing either 4th level bonuses that could be going into WIS, or between 1/3 and 1/5 of your points during character creation. Either way, chances are you're losing your otherwise perfectly reasonable melee capabilities.
I was hoping for a dark tapestry shaman for that voodoo feeling witch/oracle combo. =( going to go /wrists in the void, brt ZK.
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Dont see a problem with Arcane Enlightenment. It costs a lot in your point buy to be used effectively. In the end you have to build your whole character around it which is a sacrificy into itself. INT was this class only dump stat.
But I agree its better as a wandering hex than as a main one. Wish the other hexes where on par with this one. Lore is one of the few good spirits out there because of this hex, lots of the others need some love.
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The shaman-with-druid spells, the class that's all about spirits, can't suppress spirits that are possessing someone. And they aren't as effective as clerics would be at dispelling the manifestations of spirits, since they get dispel magic as a 4th level spell.
That's...not right. And I think a re-evaluation of the Druid spell list is in order.
They both have spells that fit. But the cleric has the spells the can effectively deal with spirits, as that was sort of his domain up until now.
i'm just skimming to the end of the thread. but wanted to chime in.
maybe the Spirits, like Mysteries, can add "proper" spells to aspects of Shaman?a Spirit more associated with binding other spirits could give bonus spells known like protection from evil, dispel magic at 3rd level, etc.
I think the good part about using the druid list is that it differentiates the class from the oracle, somewhat, and my biggest problem from the class aside from a few balance issues is that it just feels much too much like an oracle.
I am really more interested in differentiating the shaman from the druid. Like, big time. Having a witch's familiar type creature instead of a curse is plenty of differentiation from the oracle. That's the high concept. In my mind, everything else that differentiates it should be the shaman's unique features.
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What if a shaman had no defined spirit, but a first and second wandering spirit? Then all the spirits could be balanced around wandering, and a lot of vital cleric spells could be thrown onto the spirit lists to fill in the druid one.
I could even see First Wandering spirit (level 1), Second Wandering Spirit (level 5), Third Wandering Spirit (level 10), Fourth Wandering Spirit (level 15). Make the abilities a little less powerful, and balance them for how versatile a shaman could be on a day to day basis.
I am in the camp of cleric list or custom list as well. Necro and divination are much more important to my idea of a shaman than befriending animals.
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Yes, it really comes down to whether you want a shaman that communes with spirits, like the one presented, or a shaman that's infused with nature.
Yes, it really comes down to whether you want a shaman that communes with spirits, like the one presented, or a shaman that's infused with nature.
What if you want both? I want both.
I want both too. Your idea of a spontaneous druid with hex like things is pretty cool. I kinda wish the Kobold Press' Shaman took that route rather than Druid + a few other things. Although maybe I need to review that one. I do seem to recall a menu choice option....