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You can't compare a spell you may be able to cast once or twice to 30 rounds of rage. He is basically always raging. Further, you rage as a free action. That matters. So you spend one round casting while the barbarian is laying waste to his enemies.
Point here, Instant Enemy is a swift cast, so I'm not losing anything unless I'm Arcane Striking here.
I need to make a couple of additional points.
1) The stat line you used for the ranger is not viable. You would have to have a 16 in wisdom to cast instant enemy. This means your strength and dexterity have to come down.
I'll admit I'd have to bolster it a bit, but if I took 3 points from Cha and one from Int, I could put a 14 in my Wis, and then just 4k for a +2 stat boosting item to easily make it.
2) I noticed that instant enemy is a 3rd level spell that the ranger only gets access to at 10 level and can still only cast once at 13th level. My point is that the very tool you needed to compare to the barbarian is limited from 10th-13th level on and unavailable from 1st-9th level. Without instant enemy, the ranger does not even compare to the barbarian as an archer. I think it is fair to say the barbarian out classes the ranger as a archer from 1-9 in all circumstances.
The Ranger still has better feats and selection during that time, which makes him as good if not better an archer depending on your aim for the character. We could argue their other features but that's just a wash. I'd say the Barb puts down more damage between those points, but the Ranger is better suited to more varying conditions. I could have focused a bit more on the animal companion and made him a mounted archer too, but again that's a wash since the Barb can go Mounted Fury for a shockingly small lost in abilities.
You can't compare a spell you may be able to cast once or twice to 30 rounds of rage. He is basically always raging. Further, you rage as a free action. That matters. So you spend one round casting while the barbarian is laying waste to his enemies.To be fair, you have rage rounds to deal with where the Ranger has spell slots. All the best classes have a limit to their power to stop them from throwing the kill switch all the time.
Instant enemy is a swift action and lasts up to 20 minutes.
130 points of damage with a full attack with snap shot and unexpected strike to boot is not suboptimal. Now, maybe if someone shows me the output of damage of this theoretical ranger then I will admit that I am wrong.
By the way, he gets all the feats he needs on time and some feats the other classes can't get (reckless abandon, witch hunter, unexpected strike). I know you guys don't think of these as archery feats, but they are for this guy. By the way, the ranger get three extra feats for archery. The barbarian's three extra feats are the ones mentioned above.
So he is not missing out on anything. What feat is he missing out on? I guess Improved Precise Shot?
IPS 5 levels early is a big part of it, but even just having that bonus feat at 2 helps a fair bit. Ranger does have 5 extra feats over 20 levels, not 3, unless you're only looking at the first 10 levels (in which case the Barb never even *gets* IPS).
Good points on the rage powers, I had thought Reckless Abandon was melee attacks only, but it's not. I'm skeptical of the practicality of the Imp. Snap Shot + Unexpected Strike thing, it's fairly situational if you will actually use nearly all your AoOs or not. Bear in mind the same move action only provokes one time from a foe, no matter how many threatened spaces of his you leave during that move.
That's not to discount the Barb archer, though. I think now that you've pointed out Reckless Abandon, you could make a pretty decent volley archer. Using Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Clustered Shots, and converting the attack bonus from RA into damage with Deadly Aim.
And the Barbarian archer can help himself greatly with some dips to other archer classes, much more so than an archer with another class would gain from dipping Barbarian. Like, 3 levels into Weapon Master Fighter gives him 2 more feats and Weapon Training +1 (which in turn qualifies him for gloves of dueling, to boost it up to +3).
StreaOfTheSky (cool name by the way) I like Urban Barbarian because it gives the build options. When he needs more accuracy he has it. If he needs more damage he can pump up strength and use adaptive bow.
Thanks. I suppose, if you care about options that much. If you use normal rage, you can get a bigger ability boost to str, possibly allowing you to put less in the Str stat and slightly more in Dex and come out even or ahead of the urban barbarian on attack and damage no matter which stat he boosts. That was my reasoning. I also just plain hate that crowd control class feature swap they force on you.
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My real reason for commenting was to hopefully see a guide that points out the possibility for a barbarian archer.
Heck, I would even be happy to just see a guide that pointed out how deadly aim works with reckless abandon. A melee barbarian who takes all of the typical AM BARBARIAN feats, but just substitutes in deadly aim somewhere along the way can really dish out some damage with a adaptive bow without the lost to accuracy.
Well congrats, your campaigning has made this the first Barbarian guide that's pro archery. Just added Deadly Aim to the description for Reckless Abandon. It's now also listed in the primary styles. I argued doing that since I'd want to do a sample build for each, but since it seems like you already have one up, when I get to that part would you like me to use your Barbarian as my Archery example?
Yup. Seems the case. Gonna suck if the barb is just better at everything.
It still is just against one enemy though. Barbarian dishes out damage regardless your race. I like that he does not discriminate.
Well, there's more to it than that I think. If it were me I would have built differently as I prefer STR Rangers style of mounted archery.
But, beyond that other things factor as well. You can't assume that the Ranger is just picking his favored enemies/terrain out of a hat. Typically a smart ranger player will talk to his GM about what would be smart selections for his campaign in the way an AP player's guide will often do this for the prospective ranger player. And these bonuses are on all the time and require no action to activate.
More than that they don't get suddenly crushed under the weight of an effect that can fatigue or exhaust. There is much debate and text about building a barbarian that can't be fatigued purely because of the crushing nature of losing your main boosting ability.
Now an archer barbarian can work, and work well. But he'd be hard pressed to honestly compete with a switch hitting or archery ranger overall not just in combat ability.
Nice work on the guide, but there is a huge, glaring omission in the Multiclassing section - the ARG's Scarred Witch Doctor. Ok, so it's an orc racial archetype, but with the Human Racial Heritage schtick I'm seeing a lot of human SWD/Barbs.
* The Constitution synergies are unfreakingbelievable: Con is the spellcasting stat AND Hex stat so hex and spell DCs go through the roof, high HPs and BAB.
* The Fetish Mask gives a +2 bonus to your Intimidate.
* Scarshield gives 1/2 witch lvl bonus to AC.
Sigh.
[EDIT - so a better option perhaps for Multiclass Witches wanting to be martial than Barbarians who might want to hex etc, but still...]
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Nice work on the guide, but there is a huge, glaring omission in the Multiclassing section - the ARG's Scarred Witch Doctor. Ok, so it's an orc racial archetype, but with the Human Racial Heritage schtick I'm seeing a lot of human SWD/Barbs.
* The Constitution synergies are unfreakingbelievable: Con is the spellcasting stat AND Hex stat so hex and spell DCs go through the roof, high HPs and BAB.
* The Fetish Mask gives a +2 bonus to your Intimidate.
* Scarshield gives 1/2 witch lvl bonus to AC.
Sigh.
[EDIT - so a better option perhaps for Multiclass Witches wanting to be martial than Barbarians who might want to hex etc, but still...]
Hm...that is a good point...I'm torn between wanting to include it...I will, but it's not like you can rage while casting which is a bit of a damper. It's nice for a split focus, but I wish you could do both at once.
But you can hex while raging... ;)
Until the bloodrager comes out, this will have to do!
Barbarian archer *does* get much better if 3E material is allowed, as then you can take Whirling Frenzy instead of rage.
It's the reason "Barbarian Archer" was something to rightfully fear in 3E. :)
In no particular order:
I'm assuming Asian themed weapons were intentionally left off. If not the no-dachi is a great weapon.
I would also include the Elven Curve Blade for consideration under exotic weapons.
Something to consider is how some people interpret guarded life/greater guarded life. This could easily be blue if it works like many people on these boards thinks it does. There's quite a few threads on making an unkillable barbarian utilizing guarded life/greater guarded life.
If the Half-Orc is blue as a race, then the Half Elf is also arguably blue. They don't really fit the image of a barbarian quite like the half orc, but I think they can be built just as good.
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Never heard of it, can't find any mention of it.
Sorry, there is no Genie Hunter. That was just a reference to an anime I like, Soul Eater.
In no particular order:
I'm assuming Asian themed weapons were intentionally left off. If not the no-dachi is a great weapon.
I would also include the Elven Curve Blade for consideration under exotic weapons.
Something to consider is how some people interpret guarded life/greater guarded life. This could easily be blue if it works like many people on these boards thinks it does. There's quite a few threads on making an unkillable barbarian utilizing guarded life/greater guarded life.
If the Half-Orc is blue as a race, then the Half Elf is also arguably blue. They don't really fit the image of a barbarian quite like the half orc, but I think they can be built just as good.
I'll admit I forgot asian themed weapons, added to Nodachi.
As for the ECB, it just doesn't do anything exotic enough to validate it to me.
The best use I'm seeing for Guarded Life/Greater is with Deathless Frenzy, which is actually a really cool combo for an unkillable Barbarian. I haven't seen the discussions on it though, so I'm just going off of how I'm reading it though. If you could show or tell me the other interpretation, I'd be glad to look it over.
I kind of feel like I could make the half-elf blue, but they were further from it than half-orcs were. I'll decide that later, since now I'm kind of on the fence about it still.
Here's a thread with a couple of threads on the "Unkillable barbarian"
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbdu&page=2?The-Barbarian-Tank-revisited
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4x8?MiniGuide-The-Tank-Barbarian#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pri5?Help-me-flesh-out-my-UnKillable-Barbarian #37
Anyway, how Guarded Life/Greater Guarded Life works is up for interpretation.
This was very well phrased by Wiggz:
"As I understand it, it can be quite tricky and open to interpretation... the biggest question is whether or not you get to double-dip due to two different types of incoming damage.
An Invulnerable Rager gains double his normal DR vs. non-lethal damage... so let's look at it like this: let's say you're a 20th level Barb, have DR 10/-, Greater Guarded Life, have 10 hit points remaining and take 25 points of damage.
First, your DR reduces that 25 by 10. The other 15 get through. 10 of that damage would reduce you to 0 which would theoretically trigger Guarded Life. Now, does Guarded Life affect the entire incoming attack or just the damage that takes you below zero? Let's say the latter - well, since you effectively have DR 20/- vs. those 5 points of incoming now non-lethal damage, you remain at zero.
Then, you take another attack for 25 points of damage. First your DR 10/- applies, reducing it to 15... then, since any damage at all would take you below zero all the rest gets converted to non-lethal and you have DR 20/- vs. non-lethal, so you don't take any damage at all.
At least, that's my interpretation of how it works. I've seen enough disagreements to acknowledge that its pretty confusing at least and would love a Dev to weigh in."
Anyway, I'm sure you can see how Guarded Life/Greater Guarded Life can be seen as very good rage powers. Alternately they could be complete crap...it's definitely up for interpretation.
As for Half Elves, since they can add +2 to any attribute and take the Human favored class bonus, they are blue...perhaps marginally less blue than a Half Orc, but no less blue than a Human. A half elf barbarian offends my sensibilities, and I probably would never play one, but statistically, they are every bit as good as Half Orcs and Humans.
I do hope you complete the Barbarian Guide, since every other barbarian guide has not been completed.
Have we had any info on whether or not DR applies twice for guarded life? It's too easy to interpret that on the first it that drops you to 0 it only applies once. But after that it can really keep you alive.
IE
Level 10 invul barb. Have greater guarded life. Say 100 hp total.
5 health left. Get hit for 15.
DR prevents 5. Go to 0 health. Gain 10 non lethal damage. Am unconscious.
Get hit again for 15 damage. DR prevents 10. Gain 5 non lethal. Am at 15 non lethal.
I can continue like this till have 100 non lethal. Then all is lethal.
Seems decent still.
No? Am I doing that wrong?
CONVERTED is kind of a problematic word.
IMO, DR should only act once in an attack resolution. The non-lethal damage conversion should not be affected by DR.
After reading the threads, it seems like the above description is the most conservative viewpoint on Guarded Life. Even with the most conservative viewpoint, Guarded Life seems pretty good to me.
Yes, you are right...
Anyway, I see two points that need to clarified with Guarded Life/Greater Guarded Life. First, as has been pointed out, is whether or not to apply an Invulnerable Rager's DR twice or not - once vs. lethal damage, then again vs. the non-lethal damage. The other question that needs to be resolved is when exactly Guarded Life kicks in? Does it kick in only on damage below 0? Or an any amount of damage that would reduce you below 0?
I think its worth pointing these nuances out in the guide, and until there is a FAQ, GMs and players can determine how this will work at their table.
Has JJ weighed in on this?
1. Half-orcs should be "violet", as they quality for the Ferocious Tenacity feat.
2. Speaking of feats missing from the guide....see above.
I would agree that half-orcs are probably marginally better than humans and half-elves. Not sure if that makes them violet.
I like Ferocious Tenacity, but its an immediate action to use, which means its only usable once per round. Still, it's a very good (imo - green) feat.
I think you're underrating the Dragon Totem line as a whole. Together they net you flight, +6 DR, and two times your total DR resist to one energy type. If you want to be a tank Barbarian, Invulnerable Rager and Dragon Totem are beautiful together.
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First of all, I'm not exactly sure how to rule on Guarded Life, but I can agree it's good, I did rate it Green after all, which is a good choice. I suppose Greater could be green too, but the confusion is making it a bit hard to decide around.
Disagree with your assessment of Catfolk and with the right feats they can use combat styles with their natural weapons, although I do accept they are better as fighters or rogues.
I don't see them doing anything good, their bonuses are in the wrong places, and they don't get anything helpful. So many other races get claws that do what they can do better, so unless you can find me some evidence that they're not pug ugly Barbarians, the rating stays.
1. Half-orcs should be "violet", as they quality for the Ferocious Tenacity feat.
2. Speaking of feats missing from the guide....see above.
Half-orcs are VERY close to being purple, I'll admit. They have a lot of good stuff, including free Endurance and such. I'll be thinking more about that later. But as for Ferocious Tenacity though...
There's a lot of stuff that keeps a Barbarian alive better, Guarded Life being one of them. Requiring an (immediate) action is really what killed it for me, as Barbarians have uses for their swift and immediate actions, as well as costing Rage rounds. If you could use it to stop yourself from falling into unconscious, it'd be another story. But keeping yourself from dying is going to generally cost 5+ rounds of Rage, and that's a very steep price to pay, especially in the early levels. Unless you're using Destroyer's Blessing/Merciful weapon tricks to get "infinite" rage, that's not a cost I'd be willing to pay. It's green, but no higher.
I think you're underrating the Dragon Totem line as a whole. Together they net you flight, +6 DR, and two times your total DR resist to one energy type. If you want to be a tank Barbarian, Invulnerable Rager and Dragon Totem are beautiful together.
Okay, at first I didn't know what you were talking about with the +6 DR line, which is as follows:
...this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one.
Before ruling on this as a guide, I want to get a clarification. Although if this is true, you do bring up a VERY good point. While I assumed it to be a mistake, intending to say "Energy Resistance", you could be correct on that, and if so, it would make Dragon Totem a lot more attractive to Barbarians. I'm going to put up a thread about this now.
Also the sections are now linked, and I'll be getting back to magical items soon, as I simply need to finish deciding what my next guide will be, and design my inquisitor.
The DR 6 from dragon totem seems pretty straight forward. Pretty boss.
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The DR 6 from dragon totem seems pretty straight forward. Pretty boss.
It's pretty nice, but the totem has two rather meh prereqs in Animal Fury and Intimidating Gaze. Neither of those even sync together, and D. Totem could have been great without them. In my home games, I'm gonna wave those prereqs since I think they're dumb.
D. Totem is 5 Rage Powers for +6 DR, which while a nice trade, is still hefty with Beast Totem chilling there without any prereqs giving pounce and Superstition/W. Hunter/S. Sunder on the other side of it requiring the same powers at the same levels.
Well, yeah beast totem is the balls. But Dragon, bossier than I originally had noticed. With stalwart stuff you're running like DR 26/- and resist (blank) 52? cray.
I agree with you that prerequisites are ridiculous and shouldn't exist, but also take into account it's 5 powers not just for DR but also energy resistance and self-flight. The delay in the Superstition line is annoying and losing Pounce hurts, but it still has a lot to offer depending on build.
I mostly wanted to bring up that it's a viable Totem choice, as opposed to the usual mentality of "go Beast or suck."
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I agree with you that prerequisites are ridiculous and shouldn't exist, but also take into account it's 5 powers not just for DR but also energy resistance and self-flight. The delay in the Superstition line is annoying and losing Pounce hurts, but it still has a lot to offer depending on build.
I mostly wanted to bring up that it's a viable Totem choice, as opposed to the usual mentality of "go Beast or suck."
Bringing up the 26 DR from the other post means that you're going Stalwart/Improved, which is another feat sink (slightly mitigated by a trait, Half-orc racial, or dip in Unbreakable Fighter), and those are feats that sadly aren't going to be able to be burned on Extra Rage Power, which would really be the best way of catching up on the Super/Witch/Sunder line.
26 DR/- is straight sexy insane though, and totally reason enough to go D. Totem. I did mention D. Totem as a contender for Totem slot in the Totem section now, as I did miss the DR boost before.
Thankfully the (melee) Barbarian doesn't have a lot of feats to take, mostly Power Attack and Combat Reflexes (to most take advantage of CAGM), so without going the Stalwart/Improved route, you could use those feats to pick up the Super/Witch/Sunder line. But you're delaying that 26 DR/- to a pretty late point in your advancement.
I'll admit that a lot more Barbarian options are making themselves known, and I'm glad that my guide is showing all the different things you can do. Sections are now linked, and magic items are (slowly) coming along as soon as I can get some food in me.
Yah. 26 dr. Could easily finish at like DR 29 by no?
Regarding Guarded Life and Greater Guarded Life...
I have been playing a half-orc barbarian from 1st to 11th level. I've always been fearful of ending my rage and plunging from positive numbers to the deep negatives and dead. At about 5th level or so this starts becoming a strong possibility. So these rage powers seemed very attractive to me. From about 6th - 9th level these two powers saved my ass many, many times. Also, if you're into resource management, then healing non-lethal damage at the same as lethal is a good thing. It saves a couple of wand charges each time. After a certain level though, a barbarian has sufficient hit points that he stops going unconscious every combat, so these rage powers get used less frequently. Also, I eventually discovered the Raging Vitality feat and that has saved me too. Because of the gain and loss of constitution from rage (which I hate), these powers seem obvious choices to me.
Also sorry I've been so lax on this guide, I've been doing pokemon stuff. I'll be finishing it off soon, and maybe doing another after that.
Thank you for the guide. It was a great help to understand the many options outside of the core rule book. I used it to create a basic Warrior 1, Barbarian 7 for a home game. Let me know if the details would help you as a sample build.
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Also sorry I've been so lax on this guide, I've been doing pokemon stuff. I'll be finishing it off soon, and maybe doing another after that.Thank you for the guide. It was a great help to understand the many options outside of the core rule book. I used it to create a basic Warrior 1, Barbarian 7 for a home game. Let me know if the details would help you as a sample build.
You're welcome, and I might ask about that later. Right now I think I'm going to plunge back into it, as I believe I was requested to make "the first COMPLETE" Barbarian guide, and I really tanked hard. I guess I don't love these guys as much as my Alchemist, but they are my fave non magical class. Getting on magical items now, folks.
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Magic item section is nearly done, just adding some more unslotted items after taking advantage of a certain someone's Magic Item guide.
I hate doing Magic Items myself, as they feel so subjective, but once I've got those done, I might do some path stuff for Champion (yay) and Guardian (boo), and then 4 sample progressions and I'm done!
And after this, the Synthesis guide!