For my part, which is not as extensive as yours in terms of experience, it sounds like he is burnt out or just feels like the hobby he used to enjoy has gone stagnant.
My suggestion, have a talk with him about why he has been so pessimistic lately. It could be personal issues devolving into other areas of his life, such as his gaming. If the root of the issue is lacking complexity, then perhaps, for the sake of your other players, it is time to ask him to bow out until such time as he can bring a much less abrasive attitude to the table.
He sounds like Debbie Downer.
I think you explained it best yourself.
"with all of us getting older, we find it harder and harder to prep for games with custom worlds. So we're giving Pathfinder a try, and using Golarion for the first time."
I think that is a perfect explanation DR. If he already knows it, tell him again. Alone or in front of the group it does not matter.
Best of luck
-MD
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Hate to say it, but you have to be blunt with him, get straight to the point. I know we hate to hurt feelings nowadays, but it needs to be said, "You're bringing our game down. Get into it or get out.."
Okay, maybe TOO blunt.
Actually, try to be more diplomatic, do tell him he's bringing the game down, that if he doesn't enjoy it anymore, that maybe there's another pursuit he'd like to try. Try some other types of games. I don't know. I know it's tough when you've known him for so long.
Hate to say it, but you have to be blunt with him, get straight to the point. I know we hate to hurt feelings nowadays, but it needs to be said, "You're bringing our game down. Get into it or get out.."
Okay, maybe TOO blunt.
Actually, try to be more diplomatic, do tell him he's bringing the game down, that if he doesn't enjoy it anymore, that maybe there's another pursuit he'd like to try. Try some other types of games. I don't know. I know it's tough when you've known him for so long.
Actually, I do not feel that you were being too blunt. As a matter of fact, in the event that said player blows up over trying to resolve the issue - your approach is warranted.
Actually, I do not feel that you were being too blunt. As a matter of fact, in the event that said player blows up over trying to resolve the issue - your approach is warranted.Hate to say it, but you have to be blunt with him, get straight to the point. I know we hate to hurt feelings nowadays, but it needs to be said, "You're bringing our game down. Get into it or get out.."
Okay, maybe TOO blunt.
Actually, try to be more diplomatic, do tell him he's bringing the game down, that if he doesn't enjoy it anymore, that maybe there's another pursuit he'd like to try. Try some other types of games. I don't know. I know it's tough when you've known him for so long.
I'll never understand this approach to resolving interpersonal issues, it fixes nothing. This is a guy whose company they enjoy outside of the game, there is no reason to burn bridges simply because of a game. There is no indication that they never want to speak with this person again.
Should you make it clear that this is the direction that the gaming group is going in? Yes. Should you make it clear that his constant criticism of the Golarion setting is unappreciated? Yes. However there are other ways to handle it. 3pps provide adventure paths as well, invite him to research some of their products to bring to the table.
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Use diplomacy, shift his attitude for you by one step. Keep in mind that you can't use it on him if his Int is less than 3.
Intimidate might get you a quick result by forcing him to act friendly toward you but after your intimidate ends he will treat you as unfriendly and report you to the authorities.
Actually, I do not feel that you were being too blunt. As a matter of fact, in the event that said player blows up over trying to resolve the issue - your approach is warranted.Hate to say it, but you have to be blunt with him, get straight to the point. I know we hate to hurt feelings nowadays, but it needs to be said, "You're bringing our game down. Get into it or get out.."
Okay, maybe TOO blunt.
Actually, try to be more diplomatic, do tell him he's bringing the game down, that if he doesn't enjoy it anymore, that maybe there's another pursuit he'd like to try. Try some other types of games. I don't know. I know it's tough when you've known him for so long.
I'll never understand this approach to resolving interpersonal issues, it fixes nothing. This is a guy whose company they enjoy outside of the game, there is no reason to burn bridges simply because of a game. There is no indication that they never want to speak with this person again.
Should you make it clear that this is the direction that the gaming group is going in? Yes. Should you make it clear that his constant criticism of the Golarion setting is unappreciated? Yes. However there are other ways to handle it. 3pps provide adventure paths as well, invite him to research some of their products to bring to the table.
I understand what you are saying, but the reality is that his pessimism is not just during the game - it is outside the game as well. Furthermore, I never advocated that the OP drop his friend like a bad habit - if I did, then I clearly sent the wrong message here.
What I am advocating is a little tough friendship in terms of the gaming environment itself. Likewise, I only advocated this action in the event that the OP's friend gets aggressively argumentative as to his perceived actions.
I will re-iterate here that I believe the OP's friend is either suffering from gaming burnout, or feels that the use of the Golarion landscape is too 'boring' for his tastes. It may be time for him to take a step back and re-evaluate if he even still enjoys gaming to begin with.
Thanks for all of the suggestions guys. It is a tough situation, since I have known him for so long.
I understand what you are saying, but the reality is that his pessimism is not just during the game - it is outside the game as well. Furthermore, I never advocated that the OP drop his friend like a bad habit - if I did, then I clearly sent the wrong message here.
What I am advocating is a little tough friendship in terms of the gaming environment itself. Likewise, I only advocated this action in the event that the OP's friend gets aggressively argumentative as to his perceived actions.
I will re-iterate here that I believe the OP's friend is either suffering from gaming burnout, or feels that the use of the Golarion landscape is too 'boring' for his tastes. It may be time for him to take a step back and re-evaluate if he even still enjoys gaming to begin with.
I didn't read it the way others did and I understood what you were trying to get at. As for your first comment though, I think that is exactly where this is all stemming from. Some outside influence that has been bothering him, and it has finally found its way to the table.
As for being blunt with him, because I know him so well, I know that he will take it as a personal assault on him, and will not be pleased. I really don't want to hurt the friendship, so taking it to that extreme may not be the best solution.
Maybe reiterating why we are testing Golarion in the first place is really all that is needed. Nobody has made any final decisions on this yet. We have 6 people in the group including myself, 3 of the others are GM's as well (including the player in question). We've each always run things with our own creations. There was never cohesion between games because the worlds are always too different, and that is something that we wanted to explore with everybody using the same world. The other players are liking the new direction, and the other two GM's agreed that this is probably the...
Daring, thanks for addressing my response. I would just like to point out that you know this guy better than any of us can possibly hope to, and that realistically whatever course of action you take will be the most objective.
I would like to stress to you that his mood will inevitably affect the other players. Address this in a way that you feel is best, be blunt if you feel it is necessary. As a player myself, I would not want to try out a new system/world and have one player always nay-saying or just being negative for the 4 to whatever amount of hours we had time to play. After a while I might end up informing you that I do not want to keep playing if I have to deal with continuous negative chatter from my left or right.
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What I've learned is that sometimes I've had to boot players from my games to save our friendship because they were becoming unbearable as players. This way, we kept hanging out outside the games.
No matter how god a friend a person is, I've always considered that honesty is the best weapon.
But take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm almost always brutally honest, never softening the blow. I've lost some friends over that. But those that stayed are true friends.
Maybe he just enjoys a different kind of game. Maybe he's into zombie or post apocalypse or space opera or contemporary or warhammer or cthulhu. Just remind him that golarion just happens to be what you're running 'at the moment.'
Who says the next campaign will be there too. Hasn't it always been more about the adventure and companionship and ability to respond to unusual scenarios than the 'history of the setting'...
When the setting is so overpowering to the overall 'feel' of a campaign I don't disagree with him that it can be no fun. But not every game you ever run has to be on Golarion. You said youself you're trying out Golarion for the first time... Maybe it'll suck and you'll change your mind and go back to running homebrews.
He should at least stick around long enough to see if it sucks or not and if the group as a whole even likes how it turns out. Maybe they'll play a bit and find out nobody at the table much likes it either and they should all go back to homebrews... It's worth at least giving it a shot, and maybe at the end of the day the whole table will feel the same way he does. Wait for the results instead of quitting before the test.
So we're giving Pathfinder a try, and using Golarion for the first time. The first thing he starts complaining about is the fact that there was an ancient civilization that has been utterly destroyed. It is "too cheesy and typical of every fantasy setting." It continues from there, and I'm sure people can see where this is going.
It might be worth pointing out that Golarion is a 'kitchen sink' setting, i.e. whatever style of campaign players want, it tries to have somewhere that accommodates them. For example pyramids and pharaohs and mummies in Osirion, jungle exploration in the Mwangi expanse, vampires in Ustalov and so on. And that necessarily means exploring the ruins of ancient destroyed civilisations, because a lot of people want to play that style of game.
Maybe relocate to a different region? Are you playing Paizo modules or an adventure path, or homebrew set in Golarion, which could be set anywhere?
Oh Lord, have a talk with the player
Perhaps if he thinks that Thassilon is lame he can look for a time dragon from Bestiary 4 (available now!!!) to go back and eradicate them. Such is the versatility of the setting.
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I'd explain to him that this world, the one we actually live on, is FULL of ancient, lost civilizations.
In fact, a massive amount of Golarion parallels something in our real world.
That said, I'd suggest picking up the Inner Sea World Guide if you have the funds. It's almost exclusively flavor, and I think he may learn to like it if he knew more about it. Thassilon is just a MINOR part of a much bigger, and much older, Golarion.
I've often found that when someone's issue with something doesn't make sense, it isn't what they really have a problem with. It sounds like he actively looking for reasons to not enjoy the game, which might mean something else is afoot.
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My response to his feeling the world is cliche... him about the Mayans, The people of Troy, the ancient egyptians... the romans, I think you are starting to get the point. As for him being a pessimist, I can understand that, I went through a simular rough patch a few years back. Offer him your support, but ask him to maybe take a break a few games since everyone else wants to try Golarion. And im not suggesting he not show up to your game days, but perhaps just not have a charector, put him in charge of monster developement, or world economic background news building. Give him a peice of creativity without getting him too involved if he feels left out?
...this player and I have been friends for 16 years, and it wasn't until recently that things have started to go down hill.
When exactly did it start, what happened in his life? I can't count the number times and ways, not even on all of a Hekatonkheires' hands, that the pressures, depressions, and stresses of external life manifested at the game table. And the holiday season tends to make things worse for people who are already barely treading water.
Addressing the root cause, which you as his friend will have to uncover (where empathy and diplomacy is often the best path to do so), is probably your best choice as 16-year-old friendships are too beautiful a thing to risk ruining by attacking surface symptoms. But, luckily, they also tend to be the most resilient to such things.
Oh Lord, have a talk with the player
*THWACK*
Hey this is fun!
Really I have nothing to add beyond - talk to the guy openly and honestly. Don't try to blame him for anything.
Generally... it's a simple choice. Play what the group wants to play, or suggest your own campaign. If he wants to play an entirely homebrewed game, with a believable world, engaging storyline, interesting NPCs, deft rules additions, and hand-crafted scenarios, then by all means LET HIM RUN IT. It's okay to complain in that way if you are prepared to offer an alternative. In a situation where nobody has the time to build that, you devote YOUR time to it, or shut up and play.
But it sounds like this guy has a depression. Fixing that should make things better.
People like this are fantastic sources of criticism. And they aren't always wrong.
But. . .
They rarely have solutions for anything that they complain about.
Ask him for a solution. See what happens.
If he's got something, then let him run the game.
If he doesn't have any solutions (and he probably won't), move on. You do this a few times, and he'll get the point.
Of course, this all comes with the caveate (sp?) of, "If his personality has changed suddenly, then he may be having some problems." If that's the case, you should have a talk with him. You know your friend best.
Still want to find out if the OP's issue ever got resolved...
WANT TO SEE DRAMA!