Is it just me or is the witches Slumber Hex overpowered? It says it is as sleep but UNLIKE sleep which affect only up to 4HD creatures a witches slumber affects ANY HD. So if a high level creature is put to sleep because it fails one will save. Then the players can just Coup De gra it?
Any way a gm can deal with this?
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Yes, it's that powerful.
If you are building your own story, the arguement goes that you should just put in a lot of creatures that are immune to sleep, or give your important NPCs Iron Will.
I hate that argument, myself.
The best thing to do would be to reach an agreement with your players and express your concerns. If this is PFS and you have to take everything as written, oh well. You should know that enemies can take a standard action to wake their friends up, so depending on the sitch that is definitely something they should consider doing.
Sometimes the witch ending a fight early can be a big triumph for the players, sometimes it can be a bummer because it sucks the fun out. I have a witch in PFS, I pretty much try to save it for emergencies, but ultimately there are a lot of things out there that are overpowered. Sure, your witch may knock a powerful NPC to sleep in one failed will save, but a heavily optimized Barbarian with multiple attacks will just kill that same powerful NPC in one full attack...
It is powerful, yes.
But it isn't that problematic in my opinion, due to a couple of limitations:
1) The hex can only be used once in a day, whether or not the save works.
2) Rounds per level. Doesn't save you against a coup de grace, but it does limit it severely at lower levels.
3) An ally can wake the target using a standard action.
4) Damage wakes the target.
1 and 3/4 is important concerning the GM's ability to deal with it. Since you can wake the creature, you have an opportunity to avoid instant-CdG death.
It makes you loose a couple of action, but that isn't too strong for a hex, IMO.
Compared to a hold person/monster, you as a GM has several opportunities to avoid the slumber hex.
It is overpowered.
The problem is, there is already a class called wizard that is an int-based prepared caster with a MUCH better spell list, and an extra spell slot per level (specialist) and various school powers that are just as strong, except in a defensive sense (like Teleport Conjuror's ability to teleport as a swift Su ability, and thus escape any grapple).
Slumber is...basically the only good reason to play a witch over a wizard. The cackle-based stuff is very limited and too easy to disrupt (short-ranged + need a move action to keep it going = Let's Play Kiting 101), and...that's it for offensive based hexes, along with a spell list vastly lacking in good offensive spells.
I don't particularly like save-or-die abilities, but unfortunately the witch class is *built* out of them. The spell list is so limited, you basically have to play it that way if you want to contribute offensively.
Short of a complete overhaul of the class, my advice would be to just give up on the idea of using single boss encounters. Witches are largely single target -based, at least the first 10 levels, so using big groups of lesser foes will make those single target screwjob hexes/spells less meaningful. It also gives more allies to wake up the sleeping victim, though a smart witch will ready/delay until just before an ally already in melee range (so he can do the coup de grace) has a turn come up. I suppose you could counter her readying with enemies readying to wake up an ally, too.
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Is it just me or is the witches Slumber Hex overpowered? It says it is as sleep but UNLIKE sleep which affect only up to 4HD creatures a witches slumber affects ANY HD. So if a high level creature is put to sleep because it fails one will save. Then the players can just Coup De gra it?
Any way a gm can deal with this?
It is not that bad, well as long as your boss fights dont consist of single bosses anyway. The target only has to make one save. Once the save is made they are immune for 24 hours. They also have to be within 30 feet.
Evil Eye + cackle is much more annoying to me than slumber was. Even if you make the save you take the penalties, and every round you get a penalty to something else.
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Its quite powerful. My GM and I decided that it was too powerful so neither of us make it (reign of winter so lots of bad guy witches too).
Yeah, this makes my character less powerful than a wizard. So what? EVERYTHING is less powerful than a wizard :-). She still very much contributes to the success of the party and that is all that you need. And there are lots of hexes that are fun and effective without being overpowered.
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I just finished a Kingmaker campaign with a sleepywitch. At low levels it was quite effective (and overpowered compaired to what the others could do). But as they raised in level, fewer opponents could be slept. At the end of the game the witch had a KILLER save DC (30 INT - 20 Start, 4 level ups, and a +6 INT item)...so if it could be slept she took it down. But in the last two books I don't remember her sleeping even a single opponent. It was FAR more useful to Evil Eye or Misfortune, and let her allies thrash them. In some of the mid levels I did give key players Iron will/ Improved Iron Will where appropriate. As a GM, I honestly found the high DC saves more of a problem than specifically the Slumber Hex.
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Yea I run a ROW game and I am very sorry that allowed it. It really makes combats sort of suck, more annoying then anything. Basically save or get coup-du-grace. I will never allow it in its current form again in a game that I control. Since the player basically built his character around slumber it seems like a jerk move to get rid of it now. But now I am smarted
Another solution is to consider this when you're in higher levels:
When creatures get multiple attacks, they can choose to separate their attacks. For example, let's say you have a creature that has +6/+1 BAB against their 5th level party. The BBEG gets put to sleep by the Witch. Assuming a CDG wasn't already performed, one of the grunts can use one of their attacks to deal non-lethal damage to the sleeping BBEG (the +6 has a better chance, though if the BBEG's AC isn't too high for him being on the ground, the +1 could work), and wake him up.
So not only can you have mooks use unarmed strikes to deal non-lethal damage and wake up the BBEG, but it doesn't deal any (important) damage to the BBEG so he isn't even really hurt, and the mooks can still make their other attacks.
Even if bad guys aren't "proficient" in unarmed strikes, they can still deal non-lethal without penalty, it will still wake up the BBEG, and the unarmed strike will only provoke for the BBEG getting hit, which he can't take since he's sleeping (and he wouldn't take it anyway if getting hit by an unarmed strike will save his life).
Purely left up to die rolls in my opinion.
A friend of mine made a witch, and he picked up Slumber. He built high Int, focused around hexes and had I think an 18 DC or some crazy number at level 1.
Enemies were still passing the will save, and that was a complete waste of his standard action for the turn, and his attempt for the day.
I think that indeed, it is powerful, but at 1st level, if you're fighting something higher than 4 HD anyway, the DM might be throwing a challenging encounter your way anyhow and you need all the help you can get.
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I think that indeed, it is powerful, but at 1st level, if you're fighting something higher than 4 HD anyway, the DM might be throwing a challenging encounter your way anyhow and you need all the help you can get.
This is kind of my reaction, only more politely expressed. If the best argument you can come up with against the witch's slumber hex is that it allows a slim chance to neutralize what would otherwise be a TPK, that's the sign of a really poor GM.
Yes, there is a mathematical probability that a first level witch can successfully neutralize a pit fiend (I think it works out to be 1/400). But no first level character should be within hex range of a pit fiend in the first place, and only a jerk would put them in that situation.
Basically, I'm of the opinion that there are a lot of bad GMs out there who don't know how to design or run encounters, and are blaming the witch's abilities for (showing) their own incompetence.
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The witch is using a standard action to disable a single foe in close range whereas staple wizard spells can disable multiple enemies at once from medium or even long range. Even if the witch succeeds, it may not be worth the action.
If you're making encounters with a single strong enemy, you're doing it wrong. Even a high level character will get wrecked when he's out numbered.
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Not overpowered.
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This has been argued at least several times before.
The long and short of it is, yes, it's quite powerful, but there are a number of limitations that don't make it game-breaking, and a number of considerations that don't make it "over-powered", at least not compared to anything else you might have at your table (except for the known and broadly-accepted "weaker" classes).
Others has summed it up, but I'm copy-pasting/editing their replies.
1) The hex can only be used once per day against a single creature, whether or not the save works. (This can be extended to twice for very specific builds, though at the cost of a feat.)
2) The Range is 30 ft. A witch should never be getting within 30 ft "for free" - it should always pose some sort of serious danger to him to do so. If a boss doesn't have minions, there needs to be something that makes the casters (with their low HD) uninterested in being the ones interested in going close. This is especially weak when combined with...
3) The Duration is rounds per level. This doesn't save you against a coup de grace, but it does limit it severely at lower levels. You will need to be within that 30 ft. to be positioned to take advantage of it.
4) An ally can wake the target using a standard action, and any damage wakes the target. This helps "win" action economy in battles with more than one creature. Low-flying enemies (and they'd have to be low-flying for the witch to target them at all) will fall and take damage and wake, but (likely) won't die, making another similar "lose a round, allow us to beat you" moment without a coup de grace.
5) There are a large number of creatures that are automatically immune, and many more can get it easily. Whether living or not, ranging from iconic (dragons, elves) to otherwise. As sleep (and thus slumber) is mind-affecting, generating even more resistances or outright immunity. A first level spell makes you immune.
6) There are even more ways of getting around this by obscuring line of sight or line of effect. As mentioned, obscuring mist, or blindness, or invisibility will negate the ability to use the hex; entirely mundane cover, such as the ever-villainous wall or glass window. If you're interested in less mundane methods, a cube of force should work just as well.
7) The wizard (or sorcerer). A quick look at its spell list will reveal a much better ability, at large, to control the battlefield. Being a wizard, it requires no particular build or channeling of class resources. (If you're in a time-crunch campaign or if you run "ever more encounters today" style attacks this will be less true.) Starting at lower levels, grease, summon monsters, sleep, detect <anything>, charm, keep watch, cause fear, and so on are extremely potent already; wizard builds typically are presumed to have lots of scrolls on-hand as well to cover their prepared gaps (and, as they get Scribe Scroll for free, this presumptions makes sense). If you want to talk specific builds, a heaven oracle with color spray is extremely potent over the course of a creature's career. Half-elf sorcerers or oracles have the ability to get any spell (one level lower than their highest) they want at any time.
Basically, I'm of the opinion that there are a lot of bad GMs out there who don't know how to design or run encounters, and are blaming the witch's abilities for (showing) their own incompetence.
This is substantially more harsh than I see it, but there's a good point buried in it.
There are many GMs whose styles - for various reasons - of designing and/or running encounters are very vulnerable to specific strategies or effects. In some cases Slumber is the weakness. In other cases, other things are. I dare say this doesn't make someone a bad GM.
Instead, allow me to say that it's a powerful ability - a very powerful ability. There are a number of classes that have equally powerful or even more powerful abilities. A wizard's capability of conjuring/binding creatures and creating simulacra far outweighs the power of slumber as just one example. Necromancers of all classes outweigh their impact on the action economy as another. At lower levels, Color spray affects more targets at once, while Sleep potentially does and lasts longer - although these outclassed later, there are lots of things that replace them in terms of power.
All of this means it's not "over-powered" - at least not compared to the things already in-game, although it can certainly seem that way on-paper at first glance.
It may be "over-powered" for a particular GM, their setting, or similar, but if that's the case, then a GM is also likely going to have lots of problems with a large number of other abilities the players have access to, and should limit all such things accordingly.
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Prot vs _______ spell line does not make you immune to spells that do not provide control over a character. Therefore it has no effect on Slumber.
I don't have an opinion on the power level of the Hex, just bringing that up.
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Prot vs _______ spell line does not make you immune to spells that do not provide control over a character. Therefore it has no effect on Slumber.
I don't have an opinion on the power level of the Hex, just bringing that up.
Protection from X also only makes you immune to spells cast by creatures with the X alignment.
From the FAQ: "Protection From Evil: Does the "protection against possession and mental control" aspect work against non-evil controlling spells and effects?
"No. The spell says "This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects." So if a chaotic neutral enemy casts charm person on you, protection from evil doesn't have any effect because neither the spell nor the caster is evil."
So there are two reasons why protection from evil will not protect you from a true neutral witch's slumber hex.
This is substantially more harsh than I see it, but there's a good point buried in it.There are many GMs whose styles - for various reasons - of designing and/or running encounters are very vulnerable to specific strategies or effects. In some cases Slumber is the weakness. In other cases, other things are. I dare say this doesn't make someone a bad GM.
There are lots of GMs whose styles have strengths and weaknesses. I suspect that would describe most if not all of us.
However, I think a GM who considers a rule to be badly written because it exposes one of their personal vulnerabilities is a bad GM. If I hate samurai films, does that make the ninja class badly written? If I think that guns have no place in Tolkien's fantasy, does that mean that the gun rules are overpowered?
Basically, if you think there's a problem with a rule, check your gaming style first.
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I would also like to point out that the witch arguably has the weakest spell list out of the full casters. While she does get some goodies from the cleric list, she loses many staple spells that even a magus has. Most of her good spells target Will. Let's not forget the witch has the largest Achilles heel out of any spellcaster.
My point is that hexes should be strong. A witch sacrifices safety and spell selection for the hex class feature. This is their primary contribution to the party. Yes, slumber is strong. As Tacticslion explained in detail, it's not game breaking either. It's perfectly fine the way it is.
I would also like to point out that the witch arguably has the weakest spell list out of the full casters.
Yup, that's essentially what I was saying back last year that everyone ignored. Without the powerhouse hexes like Slumber and Ice Tomb, Witch is just straight-up worse than Wizard and is far too similar (people complain sorc and wizard are too similar, and they don't even use the same casting stat or "prepare" the same way!) for that to not be an instant death knell if it didn't have *something* really awesome to make up for it.
