And after forty pages, we've learned that lovers love, haters hate, and goalpost-movers move goalposts, until we're right back to where we started. All that's changed are the identities of the posters, most of them.
Round and round and round we go.
-Matt, posting like it's #1999...
Come on matt I know you paid better attention then that.
We've found different ways to play the rogue, messed with different ideas. Some opinions have shifted if not necessarily changed.
My hope more or less died when the playtest classes rolled out. But there's still a small glimmer that they'll get some actual worthy thins in that very same book. I'd personally love if they could get some of the investigator inspiration abilities.
I wouldn't say the goalposts have moved so much as the goalposts are merely different from person to person.
I will say, one harsh lesson I have learned from this thread, and others about the Rogue, is that providing a build gives the goalpost-movers goalposts to move.
It's frustrating to be asked to provide objective evidence, provide such evidence, and then watch the bar be raised to a height which is always higher than whatever is offered.
-Matt
I will say, one harsh lesson I have learned from this thread, and others about the Rogue, is that providing a build gives the goalpost-movers goalposts to move.
It's frustrating to be asked to provide objective evidence, provide such evidence, and then watch the bar be raised to a height which is always higher than whatever is offered.
-Matt
The problem is when you show evidence that actually do not prove your point.
EDIT: To be fair I have not been here for the whole 2000 post, so perhaps you indeed show how to make the rogeu works and I missed it.
To be fair I have not been here for the whole 2000 post, so perhaps you indeed show how to make the rogeu works and I missed it.
It's a pretty big thread. I don't have time to post all the links, but in the first six pages or so, I remember detailing the Rogue v Ninja question, how to increase attack bonus, how to leverage maneuvers, and I presented a build template I have had a lot of success with in PFS. I think you were in the thread where I took the DPR challenge.
In other words, I sure am tryin', and it's frustrating to see posts which make claims about about thread while ignoring what is in it. There are very many sweeping claims in this thread about the class, and very little discussion around the actual points made.
-Matt wishes there was some sort of upvote/downvote system to promote the most informative posts on the board.
Ok. Well, wis 8, no Iron will, that is pretty much not working for rogues.
And on the topic of stated positions, looks like someone didn't read the post he's attacking. If he had, he might have seen the bits about how the attributes are not set in stone and about how many feats are left to take whatever the player feels is needed.
-Matt
2nd reading. Still not seeing anything particularly good about the post. CErtainly nothing that made rogue on par with the rest.
Thanks for demonstrating the goalpost-moving I brought up last page. Something tells me that the Rogue's Will saves are insufficient simply because it doesn't have Good Will progression.
-Matt
The trip suggestion are also not that good I would say, and very unlikely to be succesful by pure rogue build.
I can't post a link to it with the phone, but in another thread, when I took the DPR challenge, my entry, which used the template in this thread, was tripping CR-appropriate monsters on I believe a 4.
-Matt
THat sounds great. I certainly would like to see it.
Here we go...
Raquel and her Craft-Wondrous-using sister Rachel
I apologize, as Raquel was not tripping on a 4. She was tripping on a 5. She was hitting CR-appropriate opponents on a 4 before factoring in Trip.
Feel free to sub out Dodge for Iron Will. Or give her 14 Wisdom instead of 14 Charisma.
-Matt
Ok, it seems you are editting it, I will take a look at it after dinner. So far (afther a reallyquick reading) she have good ac, low hit points, acceptable attack, good CMB, so so saves, good skills, good but not that good trip CMB (how are you calculating the average CMD of CR 10?)
Yeah. It had been awhile since I looked at it, and one of my own notes about Rachel's extra rogue talent threw me off there.
In the thread where this build was first posted, I posted about how I went to d20pfsrd, grabbed a bunch of Large-sized monsters of CR 10, and averaged their CMDs. I ended up with CMD 33.
-Matt
Here, the scout build from before with a one level dip in monk
For : 10 (+1 level)
Con :14 (+2magic)
Dex : 22 (+2racial, +2 magic, +1 level)
Int : 12
Wis :16 (+4 magic)
Cha: 11
HP: 10d8+20+10(75)
AC: 25(10+6dex+3wis+1natural-armor+3armor+1dodge+1deflection)
Special: 29 against AoO, Offensive defense: 30 after a sneak, snake style: once per round, AC= 1d20+18
Fort: +10 Ref: +15 Will: +11 (+2 against sleep, paralysis and stunning)
Initiative: +10
BAB:+6/+1
Feat:
1: (monk) Unarmed Strike
1: (feat bonus): Dragon Style
1: Dodge
3: Mobility
3: (NT)Snake Style
5: Improved Initiative
7: Spring attack
9: combat style master
Rogue talent: ninja trick, weapon training, offensive defense, hard to fool
Attack: rapier+2: +15/+10 (1d6+8), 18-20/x2
Special: Sneak attack +5d6
Equipment:
Rapier+2 agile, belt of physical might (con/for+2), headband of inspired wisdom +4, cloak of resistance +2, amulette of natural armor +1, bracer of armor +3, ring of protection +1
Racial modification: Acute Darkvision (90 feet), sacred tattoo
Skills: Sense motive: +18, Perception: +16, Acrobatics: +19, Stealth: +19, Escape Artist: +19, Disable Device: +18, Use Magic Device: +12, Diplomacy: +8, Bluff: +8, Swim: +7, Knowlede (local): +8, Intimidate: +9
With one level dip in master of many style, the build gain a lot. More AC (can be a Dex build instead of a Str build), more save (thanks to the monk), but lose a little damage (one handed…). Also, he can fuse Snake Style and Dragon style: can charge anywhere, with an AC of 29 against AoO and the next time a creature attack him he still get a sense motive check for AC (around 28 in average…). He will touch 55% of the time CR of his level without buff, whit an average of 26 dmg when it hit (35 when criting)
Great, there goes the handy link that someone provided for me. Can anyone tell me which post that was on again?
I swear, I think Chris follows me around and just deletes my posts.
Great, there goes the handy link that someone provided for me. Can anyone tell me which post that was on again?
I swear, I think Chris follows me around and just deletes my posts.
BEHOLD THE WORKSHOP!Great, there goes the handy link that someone provided for me. Can anyone tell me which post that was on again?
I swear, I think Chris follows me around and just deletes my posts.
Thank you. I see nobody did anything with a rogue/cave druid hybrid. That's something I've been tinkering with a bit, taking darkness domain for the bond and probably no more than 3 druid levels. Just trying to work out whether to go half-orc or human with Darkvision as a 2nd level spell.
I think the real outcome has been:
Want to make the Rogue work?
System Mastery, System Mastery, System Mastery, and a very kind DM.
Did I mention System Mastery?
The problem being, of course, that applying a similar level of system mastery to non-rogues produces characters who can shatter published content.
So I was playing around with build. It definitely doesn't compete for damage but I thought it was interesting enough to post. Instead of giving up the rogue trap features, it goes all out with traps: make traps, set traps in battle, bull-rush foes into said traps.
Picks up one ranger trap, takes the trapsmith archetype, and class rogue talents related to battlefield trap placement. Some creativity required in designing traps used in battle.
Has +22 bullrush, which comes from: 7 bab + 5 strength + 2 slotted ioun stone + 4 feats + 2 gloves of the skilled maneuver +2 relentless racial trait
Rorin
Male Dwarf rogue 10 Archetypes Trapsmith
NG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1, Senses darkvision (60 ft.); Perception +21
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DEFENSE
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AC 25, touch 15, flat-footed 25 (+6 armor, +2 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 insight, +1 luck, +1 natural, +3 shield)
hp 93 ((10d8)+40)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +8, +3 vs. poison, +5 spells, and spell-like abilities, +3 Reflex to avoid traps
Defensive Abilities defensive training (+4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants), evasion, negate crit or sneak attack (1/day), trap sense +3
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OFFENSE
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 adamantine battleaxe +13/+8 (1d8+6/x3)
Melee dagger +12/+7 (1d4+5/19-20)
Ranged dagger +8/+3 (1d4+5/19-20)
Ranged mwk. light crossbow +9/+4 (1d8/19-20)
Special Attacks +1 on attack rolls against goblinoid and orc humanoids, offensive defense (+5), ranger trap (freezing, 3/day), sneak attack +5d6
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STATISTICS
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Str 20, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 6
Base Atk +7; CMB +14 (+22 bullrush, +16 overrun); CMD 28 (30 vs bullrush)
Feats Armor Proficiency (light), Greater Bull Rush, Improved Bull Rush, Learn Ranger Trap, Power Attack, Steel Soul, Weapon Proficiency (dwarf, rogue)
Skills Climb +18, Craft (Traps) +21, Disable Device +26, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +14, Perception +21, Sense Motive +16, Stealth +14, Survival +13, UMD +14
Traits Glory of Old, Pragmatic Activator
Languages Common, Dwarven, Undercommon
SQ rogue talents (cunning trigger, quick disable, quick trapsmith, offensive defense +5, trap spotter), careful disarm, greed, relentless, trapfinding +5, trap master
Combat Gear oil of bless weapon, potion of blur, potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of jump, potion of protection from evil , potion of remove fear, wand of cure light wounds
Other Gear +1 amulet of natural armor , +2 buckler, boots of the cat, eyes of the eagle, headband of inspired wisdom +2, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, +1 adamantine battleaxe, gauntlets of the skilled maneuver (bull rush), ring of maniacal devices, ring of protection +1, belt of giant strength +2, mithral shirt +2, sleeves of many garmets, outfit (traveler's), cloak of resistance +2, wayfinder with slotted dusty rose prism ioun stone, mwk. thieves' tools, mwk. artisan tools (craft(traps)), pouch (belt), backpack, bedroll, rope (hemp/50 ft), soap (1 lb), waterskin, caltrops, chalk (10 pieces), flint and steel, grappling hook, iron pot, mess kit, small steel mirror, piton (10), dagger, mwk. light crossbow with 20 bolts, 10 alch. silver bolts, 10 cold iron bolts, torch (10), rations (5), 398.0 gp
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Careful Disarm (Ex) Whenever you attempt to disarm a trap using Disable Device, you do not spring the trap unless you fail by 10 or more. If you do set off a trap you were attempting to disarm, you adds double your trap sense bonus to avoid the trap. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Cunning Trigger (Ex) A rogue with this talent can use a swift action to set off any trap within 30 feet that she constructed.
Darkvision (Ex) Range 60 ft.; Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise-invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
Defensive Training (Ex) Dwarves get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against humanoid creatures of the giant subtype.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks.
Glory of Old In your veins flows the blood of dwarven heroes from Tar Taargadth. You receive a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and poison.
Greed (Ex) Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise skill checks made to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals and gemstones.
Hardy (Ex) Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.
Hatred (Ex) Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
Language Dwarves begin play speaking Common and Dwarven. Dwarves with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Offensive Defense (Ex) When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled against that creature for 1 round.
Poverty-Stricken Your childhood was tough, and your parents had to make every copper piece count. Hunger was your constant companion, and you often had to live off the land or sleep in the wild.
Quick Disable (Ex) It takes you half the normal amount of time to disable a trap using the Disable Device skill(minimum 1 round).
Quick Trapsmith (Ex) As a full-round action, a rogue with this talent can set a simple trap with a CR no greater than 1/2 her rogue level. To do this, she must purchase the components, spend the required time constructing the trap in advance, and have its components at hand. The type of trap that can be constructed in this way is subject to GM discretion.
Relentless (Ex) Dwarves are skilled at pushing their way through a battlefield, tossing aside lesser foes with ease. Dwarves with this racial trait receive a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver checks made to bull rush or overrun an opponent. This bonus only applies while both the dwarf and his opponent are standing on the ground.
Sneak Attack (Ex) If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. [5d6]
Slow and Steady (Ex) Dwarves never have their speed reduced by armor or encumbrance.
Stonecunning (Ex) Dwarves receive a +2 bonus on Perception skill checks to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors located in stone walls or floors. They receive a check to notice such features whenever they pass within 10 feet of them, regardless of whether or not they are actively looking.
Trapfinding (Ex) You add +5 to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks. You can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magical traps.
Freezing Trap (Su) The trap creates a burst of ice that damages and encases the triggering creature. The creature takes 1d3+0 points of cold damage and is entangled and stuck to the ground, similar to the effect of a tanglefoot bag. A successful Reflex save halves the damage and means the creature is not stuck to the floor by the ice. The ice is 5 inches thick, has hardness 0 and 15 hit points, and melts in 2d4 rounds.
Trap Master (Ex) At 8th level, whenever a trapsmith disarms a trap using Disable Device, she can bypass it even if her check did not exceed the DC by 10 or more. If it is a magic trap that allows specific creatures to pass it without danger, she can modify which creatures it allows to pass, adding her allies and restricting enemies if she desires. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Trap Sense (Ex) You gain a +3 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps, and a +3 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10 feet of a trap, you receive an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Weapon Familiarity (Ex) Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word "dwarven" in its name as a martial weapon.
As it is currently the Rogue requires a super high optimization level to even catch up to a half decent [insert class here].
What can be done to solve this? Better Rogue Talents. Possibly a strong archetype.
EDIT: +2 dusty rose prism + wayfinder for a 24.
I explain the breakdown in the document. You've got it, then add +3 for flanking with Gang Up and the Militia trait and +1 for self-provided haste.