Goblin Squad Member
|
Looking at this from a database perspective, each character would have to have a unique ID, or Primary Key.
Since the first name could be repeated it's not unique. Therefore there will likely be a character ID (likely a number) that will keep the characters unique. So we could instead of focusing on unique names for each player allow for a number of repeats, so no one can bank names to sell later, or use the name as a status symbol.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My only problem with all this is that "Brother" is an important part of my characters' name. He actually uses it in lieu of his "real" first name. If I have to give it up, so be it, but it just doesn't feel right.
I think Brother might have been an option for the Honorable title add-on. No idea if it'll still be offered though.
Edit:
From the 2nd Kickstarter
"$10 - Honorable Title
Prior to arriving in the River Kingdoms, your character served with distinction elsewhere and was recognized for that service. You'll be able to choose a formal title for your character of Sir, Dame, Master, Brother, Sister, Father
or Mother. You will be able to control when this title is displayed to others in-game. One Honorable Title is required per character. You may purchase this Add-On multiple times."
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Looking at this from a database perspective, each character would have to have a unique ID, or Primary Key.
Since the first name could be repeated it's not unique.I would expect the First Name to be the Primary Key.
They can't
If someone takes the first name John,then no one can take John Smith, John Baptist, ... etc.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My only problem with all this is that "Brother" is an important part of my characters' name. He actually uses it in lieu of his "real" first name. If I have to give it up, so be it, but it just doesn't feel right.I think Brother might have been an option for the Honorable title add-on. No idea if it'll still be offered though.
Yes I understand this, but that means he is required to do clergical/clerical things to acquire it. He got the title as a remnant of his past in the inquisition of the cult of erecura. He was excommunicated and now uses it as sort of a reminder. That and the torture they committed on him shredded his mind so he doesn't know better.
The point being it is an important part of the RP that will not be something likely to be gained whilst playing, rather is already established beforehand.
|
Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What's the current uniqueness requirement? Is "John Smith" a collision with "John Smith " or "John -Smith"?
We will find as many ways to break your naming system as possible, whatever it is.
Currently the two names are planned to go together and combined must be unqiue, so there may be many Johns and many Smiths, but only one John Smith. But there could be Jon Smith, Jon Smyth, etc.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Brother might have been an option for the Honorable title add-on. No idea if it'll still be offered though.Yes I understand this, but that means he is required to do clergical/clerical things to acquire it.
I don't think that's true.
Prior to arriving in the River Kingdoms, your character served with distinction elsewhere and was recognized for that service. You'll be able to choose a formal title for your character of Sir, Dame, Master, Brother, Sister, Father
or Mother. You will be able to control when this title is displayed to others in-game.
I don't see any reason to believe that selecting a Title that was earned "[p]rior to arriving in the River Kingdoms" would force your character to actively engage in any particular in-game behavior.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do make a distinction between Honorifics and First Name. As honorifics are a specific Kickstarter add-on, I think they should be on the exclusion list for names. I am comfortable with using my Kickstarter pledge to get get "Brother Harad Navar".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
They can'tSure they can.
If someone takes the first name John, then no one can take John Smith, John Baptist, ... etc.That's actually the way it works in virtually every other MMO I've ever played.
Your forgetting the last name field,
Once John is taken in the first name field, NO one can use John as a first name even if the last name is different.Most Database design would dictate a ID number for overlapping names
(look to companies and governments, your ID'd by a number, not a name)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Currently the two names are planned to go together and combined must be unqiue, so there may be many Johns and many Smiths, but only one John Smith. But there could be Jon Smith, Jon Smyth, etc.What's the current uniqueness requirement? Is "John Smith" a collision with "John Smith " or "John -Smith"?
We will find as many ways to break your naming system as possible, whatever it is.
Ugh... The idea of seeing "Nihimon <soandso>" really, really bugs me.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My only problem with all this is that "Brother" is an important part of my characters' name. He actually uses it in lieu of his "real" first name. If I have to give it up, so be it, but it just doesn't feel right.I think Brother might have been an option for the Honorable title add-on. No idea if it'll still be offered though.Yes I understand this, but that means he is required to do clergical/clerical things to acquire it. He got the title as a remnant of his past in the inquisition of the cult of erecura. He was excommunicated and now uses it as sort of a reminder. That and the torture they committed on him shredded his mind so he doesn't know better.
The point being it is an important part of the RP that will not be something likely to be gained whilst playing, rather is already established beforehand.
She meant that you can buy the title currently in the pledgetool if you were a kickstarter backer, and hopefully for you, also in the Goblinworks Store when it opens.
It is not tied to any class or role or achievement, just 10 bucks for the title. I bought one for each of my KS accounts.
Nightdrifter edited her post so that makes it more clear what she was saying.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Wouldn't Yo-yo Pababy-Pop be even cooler? C'mon guys back me up or we aren't friends no more!Yoyo Baby-Pop is a possibility then? That would be awesome. I could see naming my Paladin that.
;-)
Maybe they could allow just the hyphen then, is that the one you were after? I can understand people wanting that one in their first name. And maybe a ' for names like M'Hael. Which is actually more of a title but ok. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My only problem with all this is that "Brother" is an important part of my characters' name. He actually uses it in lieu of his "real" first name. If I have to give it up, so be it, but it just doesn't feel right.I think Brother might have been an option for the Honorable title add-on. No idea if it'll still be offered though.Yes I understand this, but that means he is required to do clergical/clerical things to acquire it. He got the title as a remnant of his past in the inquisition of the cult of erecura. He was excommunicated and now uses it as sort of a reminder. That and the torture they committed on him shredded his mind so he doesn't know better.
The point being it is an important part of the RP that will not be something likely to be gained whilst playing, rather is already established beforehand.
She meant that you can buy the title currently in the pledgetool if you were a kickstarter backer, and hopefully for you, also in the Goblinworks Store when it opens.
It is not tied to any class or role or achievement, just 10 bucks for the title. I bought one for each of my KS accounts.
Nightdrifter edited her post so that makes it more clear what she was saying.
I'm actually a guy. :p
As everyone knows MMORPG stands for Many Men Online Roleplaying Girls.
It may also have some other meaning: Massively Multiplayer ... something or other.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Your forgetting the last name field
No, I wasn't, but it's a moot point now (probably).
In Vanguard, my Sorcerer is named "Nihimon VhaneSylvan" (because they don't allow apostrophes). There cannot be another character named "Nihimon", with or without any other last name. I believe LOTRO works the same way.
Most Database design would dictate a ID number for overlapping names
Not to argue, but just as a point of interest, I'm personally finding a lot of value in the advice to use Natural Keys.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Currently the two names are planned to go together and combined must be unqiue, so there may be many Johns and many Smiths, but only one John Smith. But there could be Jon Smith, Jon Smyth, etc.What's the current uniqueness requirement? Is "John Smith" a collision with "John Smith " or "John -Smith"?
We will find as many ways to break your naming system as possible, whatever it is.
Ugh... The idea of seeing "Nihimon <soandso>" really, really bugs me.
I understand your sadness, but cannot create a general solution that has abet positive effect. There are too few first names for all of them to be unique.
Malicious use of similar names would be covered under some other policy...
And I could support a system where a number of players claimed an original last name, and they got the ability to approve or disapprove people using it. I think the cost of such a feature would be right around correct if it was implemented from the start; adding it to the existing character naming system might be too costly.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Maybe they could allow just the hyphen then, is that the one you were after? I can understand people wanting that one in their first name. And maybe a ' for names like M'Hael. Which is actually more of a title but ok. :)Wouldn't Yo-yo Pababy-Pop be even cooler? C'mon guys back me up or we aren't friends no more!Yoyo Baby-Pop is a possibility then? That would be awesome. I could see naming my Paladin that.
;-)
Yeah hyphens and apostrophes are pretty popular for first names. Half Orcs especially get the hyphen treatment and Elves get the apostrophes.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Ugh... The idea of seeing "Nihimon <soandso>" really, really bugs me.
And yes, I realize the conflict with my stated position in Non-Unique Names, Anonymity, and Disguises. I'm working to solve that cognitive dissonance now :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Your forgetting the last name fieldNo, I wasn't, but it's a moot point now (probably).
In Vanguard, my Sorcerer is named "Nihimon VhaneSylvan" (because they don't allow apostrophes). There cannot be another character named "Nihimon", with or without any other last name. I believe LOTRO works the same way.
Most Database design would dictate a ID number for overlapping namesNot to argue, but just as a point of interest, I'm personally finding a lot of value in the advice to use Natural Keys.
Hah, ok, will adress you correctly from now on then. :)
EDIT: off course this answer was supposed to quote Nightdrifter, not Nihimon. :)
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Your forgetting the last name fieldNo, I wasn't, but it's a moot point now (probably).
In Vanguard, my Sorcerer is named "Nihimon VhaneSylvan" (because they don't allow apostrophes). There cannot be another character named "Nihimon", with or without any other last name. I believe LOTRO works the same way.
Most Database design would dictate a ID number for overlapping namesNot to argue, but just as a point of interest, I'm personally finding a lot of value in the advice to use Natural Keys.
The natural key would mean that "Old McDonald" would collide with "Oldmc Donald", Old Mc Donald", "Old McDona'ld", "Old McDönald" and "Oldmcdonald". Only one character could have a name with that key, and any command that referenced any of those names would identify that character uniquely.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Your forgetting the last name fieldNo, I wasn't, but it's a moot point now (probably).
In Vanguard, my Sorcerer is named "Nihimon VhaneSylvan" (because they don't allow apostrophes). There cannot be another character named "Nihimon", with or without any other last name. I believe LOTRO works the same way.
Most Database design would dictate a ID number for overlapping namesNot to argue, but just as a point of interest, I'm personally finding a lot of value in the advice to use Natural Keys.
Looking over my database notes, there is another type of Unique ID.
The Composite Key, where two or more fields are set to be the Primary Key.
Only unique combos of these fields are added as the database grows.
Composite Keys are also used in an intermediate table where there is a Many to Many Relationship between to tables.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
They can'tSure they can.
If someone takes the first name John, then no one can take John Smith, John Baptist, ... etc.That's actually the way it works in virtually every other MMO I've ever played.
Star Trek gives every player a handle that is unique, and any character name is stored with the handle, so you can have thousands of Johns in the game- John@dumbhandle1234, John@stiflerrules69, etc... They also allow ships to share names, for better or worse. I believe Neverwinter does the same thing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Having a unique ID as a key would allow duplicate names but then becomes incredibly hard to use in-game:
id_12345 = "John Smith"
id_67890 = "John Smith"
/tell John Smith Hi dude! => ambiguous, which John Smith exactly?
/tell id_12345 Hi dude! => Would work but is really impractical
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Can you imagine how many Nihimons there are going to be if it's not a unique first name? People will be trying to get under your skin (or worse) with an endless stream of no-XP throwaway alts named "Nihimon Smith", "Nihimon Jones", "Nihimon Brown", "Nihimon Vane'Sylvan", "Nihimon Vhane'Slyvan"...and on...and on...and on...
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
With regard to names, I will say this:
When we begin Early Enrollment the naming conventions are going to be the equivalent of the Wild West.
You should assume that any name you choose is provisional, subject to change, and remains active only at our discretion.
The rampant abuse of the name system I expect will be massive, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to devote a lot of resources to a more reflective and discriminatory naming review process in Early Enrollment compared to the other tasks on the priority list.
So expect that whatever name you choose is likely to get changed at some point and then you won't be disappointed if and when that happens.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everquest has a HUGE amount of titles in their Store. They also sell titlepacks.
They sell both prefixes as suffixes. It is amazing how much variation you get when suffixes are allowed.
"the Rose"
"the Daisy"
"the Daphodil"
All part of the suffix flowerpack. :)
I am most fond of a very rare suffix title that I received as a random reward with a LoN boosterpack (Everquests Card Game), "Legend of Norrath"
So now I am "Master Artisan Ubbo Horsemaster, Legend of Norrath".
You can also earn titles in game through completing achievements, like having killed a 1000 Goblins or Spectres and such. The Master Artisan title you get for getting a max skill of 300 in all 7 main tradeskills. There are literally hundreds of titles in Everquest.
I hope PFO will also have suffix titles.
Suffixes like "Mayor" could be bestowed upon Settlement leaders, as an option. Stuff like that.
"the Merciful"
"the Wanderer"
"from Fleabottom"
So many options.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@RHMG Animator, I'm not sure what's causing the disconnect.
I recognized two possibilities.
1. Primary Key is (FIRST_NAME)
2. Unique Key is (FIRST_NAME, LAST_NAME), FIRST_NAME not nullI was merely expressing my expectation (at the time) that the former case would prevail.
I don't think you've worked on databases (currently a student working on them) and you did not make it as clear as above.
(I tend to read code better then sentences.)Data bases have a few types of Keys, the rest are fields;
Primary Key (Unique, NOT NULL),
Composite Key (made of two or more Primary Keys),
and Foreign Key (for connecting tables)
your Second option in database terms is invalid and can not be made.
A more appropriate version would be made using a composite Key
(PK)First_Name
(PK)Second_Name
(Flds) ... Char_Data...
But if Second name is blank, enter a space. This makes Second_Name filled with a space character and avoids the isNull error.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Neither having more than one primary key nor populating a field with a space to prevent it from being null are proper database hygiene.
Especially since the database structure only need match naming policy and structure if an advantage is gained.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I don't think you've worked on databases (currently a student working on them)...
I don't know what to tell you, then. I've worked professionally on serious databases (Ingres and Oracle) for over 20 years.
your Second option in database terms is invalid and can not be made.
That's not true. Here's the output that includes both of the options I described, of course you would probably only use one or the other.
Connected to Oracle Database 11g Enterprise Edition Release 11.1.0.7.0
create table characters (
2 first_name varchar2(15) not null,
3 second_name varchar2(15),
4 constraint characters_pk primary key
5 (first_name),
6 constraint characters_u01 unique
7 (first_name, second_name)
8 );
Table created
Executed in 0.125 seconds
A more appropriate version would be made using a composite Key
(PK)First_Name
(PK)Second_Name
(Flds) ... Char_Data...But if Second name is blank, enter a space. This makes Second_Name filled with a space character and avoids the isNull error.
I'm well aware that Primary Keys cannot contain nullable columns, which is why I described my second option as a Unique Key instead of a Primary Key.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I guess, I've not reached your level yet, As I am a student.
I did not know of the Unique Key, I only know of the Primary Key, Composite Key, and Foreign Key at this point.
I don't recall mention of Unique Key, though know of Unique fields.
Neither having more than one primary key nor populating a field with a space to prevent it from being null are proper database hygiene.Yeah, I wasn't sure what was up with the two columns listed with PK, but had the same reaction.
I know it's not the best (though hacked approach), given what I currently know about database design.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I did not know of the Unique Key...
No worries. As I said, it's really just a matter of personal interest to me. I remember some of the people I gamed with years ago advising me to avoid Surrogate Keys and to only use Natural Keys. As I've tried to do more and more complex things, I've realized the value in that advice.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Once John is taken in the first name field, NO one can use John as a first name even if the last name is different.
Well that is certainly not true. Conjoining values in two fields is a common method to generate a unique value. No problem.
Most Database design would dictate a ID number for overlapping names (look to companies and governments, your ID'd by a number, not a name)
Certainly there will be a unique number as well, and it will most likely be a field also found in your account.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think we need to know of the specifics of their database coding to discuss what we want in names. :P
The guidelines given by Lee above are fine by me. I know some people want to go all out with funky names, but frankly if it isn't in our A-Z English alphabet I don't think it should be allowed, unless it's really easy to send a report/whisper/whatever without typing someone's name.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Titles like "Brother" are things people should be prepared to purchase, not incorporate as a part of their names. They're a valuable asset we can sell that has no in-game mechanical benefit.
Good on the purchase. Might not be a horrible idea to incorporate a system where a long term quest line could be pursued in order to get a title through actual in-game deeds (emphasis on the "long term" goal here). Gives players an option to buy or not (sure, you want the $, got it) and might be a good way to keep those with little extra cash active pursuing a long term goal.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I don't think we need to know of the specifics of their database coding to discuss what we want in names. :P
The guidelines given by Lee above are fine by me. I know some people want to go all out with funky names, but frankly if it isn't in our A-Z English alphabet I don't think it should be allowed, unless it's really easy to send a report/whisper/whatever without typing someone's name.
I hate you :p
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
/beatdeadhorse
While I understand the desire for some players to be able to get the character names that they want accomplishing in-game deeds, I believe that character names is an excellent opportunity for GoblinWorks to generate extra income, free of any accusations of 'Pay-to-Win'. I hope that they are able to allow any name in any format, for a price, as long as it is within the regulations of taste.
I'm a fan of the @handle method that links a character to a player account because it makes befriending/ignoring characters based on the human player rather than the character played. I understand that this is extreme, but sometimes 'hops meet yeast' and other times 'oil meets water'.
I'm sure there are many arguments for and against the database structure that Lee proposed. I'm for it for the selfish reason in that I like the idea of Nihimon being the server 'Highlander', going around murdering all of the poor souls who made the tragic mistake of naming their character 'Nihimon'.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Titles like "Brother" are things people should be prepared to purchase, not incorporate as a part of their names. They're a valuable asset we can sell that has no in-game mechanical benefit.
Which is perfectly fine and acceptable on all levels. I was just concerned about the option even being available to me or not :)
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I don't think we need to know of the specifics of their database coding to discuss what we want in names. :P
The guidelines given by Lee above are fine by me. I know some people want to go all out with funky names, but frankly if it isn't in our A-Z English alphabet I don't think it should be allowed, unless it's really easy to send a report/whisper/whatever without typing someone's name.
Which is why I suggested that if accented characters are allowed, that they collide with the closest unaccented US-EN unaccented character(s) in all cases.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm a fan of the @handle method that links a character to a player account because it makes befriending/ignoring characters based on the human player rather than the character played.
I'm not saying we won't eventually do something like this, but here's the problem.
There are a certain class of players who do not want, ever, their characters to be identified with a Real Human Being.
Some are people who are being stalked and fear the consequences of their stalker being able to triangulate on them.
Some are people who are lying about who they are for the purposes of human factors engineering - they're trying to get themselves into a position of information or power against a rival group.
Some are people who in general don't want to deal with the social or employment repercussions of being "outed" as someone who plays elfgames on the interwebz.
When these kinds of systems are implemented, you basically force these people to jump through hoops to disguise their real identities and they are always at risk of screwing up and doxxing themselves accidentally. It can be a real b&!~# to clean up afterwards (and sometimes can't ever be fixed).
So it's not a magic bullet.