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You really have to differentiate between experiences, subjectiv impression and awesome home party gaming on one hand and the mechanics on the other hand. Sure, there are circumstances when it might be fun to play soccer high heels, but that should never be included in the rules of the game or be preached as the right way to do it.
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There are sides?
This is the internet. There are always sides.
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Take a look at this thread. There are some very nice rogue builds in there, special mentions to the nonlethal-damage-monster and the always-hit-touch-ac builds.
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How to have fun with a Rogue:
Step #1: Make sure you are playing with people who actually understand that it's in their best interest to help you flank and do other rogue-ish things. Are your allies cooperative with a good sense of not only their own skills, but also of what everyone else in the party can do? If yes, good.
If on the other hand they're so set on maximizing their own personal DPS that they're unaware you exist aside from those moments where they blame you for things change your class choice, or would rather just dismiss you as useless because you decided to play a rogue than try to help you, this is when you should probably change your class choice (and maybe start looking for better people to play with).
If you can pass step #1 (cooperative allies), the rogue is already fun for almost everyone. It will never be the most optimized thing on the planet, but it is useful, enjoyable, and plays a significant role both in and out of combat.
How to have fun with a rogue?
Play World of Warcraft.
Or play 4E. Or Dungeon World, or GURPS, or Fate Core, or Hero, or Mutants and Masterminds, or True 20, or any of the many other games that give good support for playing a stealth-and-skill based character. But don't bother in Pathfinder.
I'm saying this as someone who's quitting playing a Ninja after more than a year, it's most likely that you'll abandon your rogue after you reach something like fifth level, as the frustrations of trying to play that class build up. I've repeatedly seen people in the local group start playing rogues, and then realize the problems with the class and give up in frustration. I thought I could do better, but then I have to admit they're right.
Also frankly, I'd rather people didn't play a rogue, because if I'm playing in a PFS scenario I want characters that can enable success, not be a load on the party. So if you want skills and face ability, play a bard; if you want combat and stealth play a ranger. But don't waste a slot that can be given to a more effective character.
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STR-10 INT:14
DEX:15 WIS:12 gnome, 15/14/12/12/12/12 20pt array
CON+14 CHA+14 (min/max: drop one 12>7 to convert two other 12>14)
"Where's my DPR???", the crowd moans.
-- Who cares; that's not why you're playing a rogue in the first place.
*sigh* OK.
20th: over a dozen MAXED skills. Racial spells at CL20. (These let you control situations to your favor.)
Comparison of CRB class capstone abilities:
(*SoS: all the save-or-suck capstones have the same DC of 10 + 1/2 CL + stat)
Barbarian: Mighty Rage : ~ att+1/dmg+3 ...utilitarian but dull
Bard: Deadly Performance : SoS* one aware target, one full-round
Cleric: "You get NOTHING! Good DAY, Sir!"
Druid: Wild Shape (at will) : ...if you need it more than 8/day...
Fighter: Weapon Mastery : crits are better & auto-confirm
Monk: Perfect Self : DR10/Chaotic
Ranger: Master Hunter : SoS* each FE category once/day as standard action
Rogue: Master Strike : SoS* every sneaked target once/day, automatically, with 3 outcome options
Sorcerer: Bloodline Power (20th capstone; too many to list)
Wizard: Bonus Feat : ...aren't you so happy you could just squirt?
For sheer, unmitigated naughtiness, no capstone has as much dirty rotten scoundrel flavor as the rogue's. Every single sneak you make qualifies and triggers your capstone automatically (so long as it's upon a new target you haven't sneaked yet that day).
So, how naughty are you?
Epic: you go Arcane-Trickster, eventually reaching its 10th-level capstone, Surprise Spells. Attend the king's coronation (where the dignitaries are packed in like sardines), and trigger a widened fireball with yourself as the epicenter. ***BOOM***! 400 people now have to make (in addition to the reflex saves) fortitude saves for Master Strike's SoS due to Surprise Spells. 20 of them roll 1s.... and you can declare those people (and anyone else who failed) slain. This is not a magic or supernatural "death effect"; it's an extraordinary ability. If their stat-block doesn't contain "immortal" or "immune to sneak-attack", they're dead. A week later, you attend the funerals and do it again.
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In my game the Rouge tends to be hands-down the very biggest damage dealer, given that he can safely enough slink into melee.
Though I play with a whole bunch of houserules that modify many classes and feats, the core set remains pretty much the same.
This rouge uses the following tricks to be usefull in combat:
-Sit tight and watch: Theres a massive horde of undead in a warehouse, the buffed and Enlarged Cavalier takes it on with a hammer in his hands and a healer on his shoulder (Small + Reduce person = Tiny, HAH), The mage found a spot to cast AoE from, but the rouge spotted an assassin lurkin in the room. How was he useful? He let the tanky tank wade through the zombies, the blasty blast mage blast zombies, and all the while he kept an eye on their backs, saving them all from the real danger of the battle.
-Descent of death: An enemy overlord atop his gargatuan elemental mount one-shots everything that gets close, a bunch of npc´s help buffer shield any player smart enough not to charge. Suddenly the mage successfully casts Icy prison, the Rouge swiftly descends upon the side-boss, using a hero point to close the distance and cou-de-gras the frozen boss with a godly brilliant energy sword, the fortitude save had been successful if not for the bucketful of sneak attack dice.
-From thin air: The rouge´s bread & butter, via a custom designed Ring of invisibility Lesser, any foe without proper detection magic is vulnerable to his sneak attacks. One attack in the surprise round coupled with a swift follow up with a full two-weapon attack (The rouge´s bonus to initiative is +11, so he usually goes first after the surprise round) means that before anyone else gets to act, he´s rolled in excess of 30 dice of damage, not including weapon damage or critical hits.
-Stick of survival: When the going gets rough, and the tank is hogging all the best healing spells, the rouge just slips out for a quick breather and hits himself in the face with a stick. I meant to say a magic wand of cure light wounds. The rouge has UMD as a class skill, get familiar with this complex skill and become your own invisibility/cure light wounds/Cats grace/useful spell of doom dispenser.
-Ser Randal Thorne, Dragonslayer!: I give all my players one collective teamwork feat, to promote teamwork. Precise strike was an obvious choice. The rouge working along with his trusty, beefy, Cavalier can flank and bring down almost any foe. After learning the worth of teamwork feats both players have been inclined to try out new ones, Sting of the butterfly comes to mind.
This last one is not so much a trick this player has pulled, but a general rule:
-From the shadows: A very basic playstyle that you need to learn if youre a rouge. Everytime you move in combat dont tell your DM "I go over here" or "I stay behind this" this is important. ALWAYS when you play a Rouge, improve upon every move by declaring it in a dramatic manner "I slink through the shadows", "I keep a low profile among the furniture", "I tread through the shrubbery without making any sounds", "I try not to enter his peripheral vision as i creep down the wall". If you word your movement thusly your DM is FAR more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt, gaining you the right to make stealth tests.
The ultimate big question for every rouge to ask:
What kind of DM do I have and how does my group function?
In RAW and theory its very hard to interpret the power of a rouge correctly. A rouge who can sneak up on a target is far deadlier than one who cant, but will the DM give you the required tools and environ to do so?
Make sure you and your DM see stealth in a similar way, ask questions like "Does an inattentive guard count as actively observing his surroundings?", "If i dash from cover to cover in front of an unprepared and unaware person, do i get a stealth check or am I seen automatically?". Stealth is a grey-zone skill where RAW, RAI and Player/DM interpretations can vary immensely. There are DM´s who make the stealth skill unplayable (often inadvertedly) and there are DM´s who especially endeavor to make battlefields stealth friendly.
After you make sure a rouge is viable in a game with that particular DM, turn to your teammates. Would the team tank be honoured to flank for you? Or is it a chore to him? Also note that flanking becomes twice as effective/easy if your team has 2 or more frontliners because then you have twice as many people to flank with.
Finally, what kind of game is the group playing? Does the DM want the players to collectively play a squad of Lawful good do-gooders? Is it a dark gothic town setting? Is it a Pathfinder module? Personally I feel Pathfinder modules and storylines hold up decently for every character type to play in, depending on the DM, but for PFS I do not think you will ever find a stable basis for your Rouge to base himself on.
In this way rouges are probably the most intensive class to play, but rouges who do well will even out compared to more optimised classes, or outclass them altogether.
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The ranger or inquisitor or bard uses exactly the same stealth rules as the rogue does. Except the bard and inquisitor have spells to help them.
The stone-deaf mentality some people have regards a rogue's UMD never ceases to amaze me.
I can only gather they've never seen, or been able to conceptualize, a rogue actually built like a rogue (let alone one employing a synergistic race chassis) instead of as a fighter with pumped STR and dumped CHA and INT.
For sheer, unmitigated naughtiness, no capstone has as much dirty rotten scoundrel flavor as the rogue's. Every single sneak you make qualifies and triggers your capstone automatically (so long as it's upon a new target you haven't sneaked yet that day).
So, how naughty are you?
Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue's master strike for 24 hours.
That reads like one sneak attack to me, not an entire round of sneak attacks, and since the Dc is a Fort save, and based off of what is normally a secondary or tertiary stat, making it won't be that difficult.
Also comparing other class's capstone does not make the rogue better, and rogue is still not any more dangerous to your wizard than any other class.
Something with hide in plain sight is a bigger threat since see invis won't pick it up, and the stealth check will likely surpass your perception check...<---I am talking about things that are not primarily casters.
With that said I am glad you like the rogue, but don't pretend it is something it is not.
The ranger or inquisitor or bard uses exactly the same stealth rules as the rogue does. Except the bard and inquisitor have spells to help them.The stone-deaf mentality some people have regards a rogue's UMD never ceases to amaze me.
I can only gather they've never seen, or been able to conceptualize, a rogue actually built like a rogue (let alone one employing a synergistic race chassis) instead of as a fighter with pumped STR and dumped CHA and INT.
Once again[b] any class can use UMD. I even had a barbarian with it once. UMD is [b]not a rogue class feature. The bard actually has it as a class skill, and is likely to have a higher or just as high charisma as a rogue.
My barbarian also did not dump int or cha. I am not the only person that does not play cookie cutter characters. :)
PS: Nothing you said voided his statement that those other classes can do what the rogue does. You actually just jumped to the fighter, which was not even named.
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Brilliant! You've managed to ignore exactly *100%* of my post, including the one, small part you actually quoted! You win the prize!For sheer, unmitigated naughtiness, no capstone has as much dirty rotten scoundrel flavor as the rogue's. Every single sneak you make qualifies and triggers your capstone automatically (so long as it's upon a new target you haven't sneaked yet that day).Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue's master strike for 24 hours.That reads like one sneak attack to me, not an entire round of sneak attacks, and since the Dc is a Fort save, and based off of what is normally a secondary or tertiary stat, making it won't be that difficult.
Also comparing other class's capstone does not make the rogue better, and rogue is still not any more dangerous to your wizard than any other class.
Wrong. No other class is liable to have maximum ranks in a dozen class skills.
Fear rogues in combat? Pshaw. I fear rogues *out* of combat.
Once again any class can use UMD. I even had a barbarian with it once...
Once again, we've already had that discussion in the other thread.
A 10th-level CRB rogue can easily have a 0% chance to fail a DC30 UMD check to emulate alignment or class feature. Not 5%. *0%*. -- Your dabbler barbarian will never be that good. Ever. Not even at 20th level.
So, do you have any advice on making rogues fun as rogues, or are you just here to poop on the class (as is the common, low entertainment of many trolls on these forums who seriously need to find a new hobby)?
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Wizards and bards can both max ranks in over a dozen skills. They also have better out of combat utility.
I read what you said about the capstone. We just disagree about how the once is applied.
I am not trying to poop on your fun or the class. I have used rogues as a GM to paint the walls red, but you are spreading non-truths and I do have an issue with that. Saying only rogues can get a dozen skill is one of them.
So every time you say something that is not true I will correct you.
Feel free to speak about the rogue, just be accurate.
As for my advice, I will say decide what you want your rogue's job to be within the party. You don't need a combat rogue. You can do well with skills depending on how the current game is run.
TLDR:Make sure your rogue matches your current group playstyle well. As long as you remain useful everyone is happy.
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So, how to have fun with the Rogue
1) Pick up the Advanced Class Guide Playtest
2) Pick a new version of the Rogue
3) Do something better than other classes can
4) Feel useful
5) Have fun
6) Don't take messsageboard threads too seriously.
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Wizards and bards can both max ranks in over a dozen skills. They also have better out of combat utility.
The wizard would end up with a dozen which are mostly inoffensive knowledge skills; the others will be non-class skills whose attendant base stat a wizard isn't usually concerned with and often dumps; the bard will only max a dozen if he is willing to advance Perform in three or more categories for the purposes of Versatile Performance (and obviously doesn't play an archetype forfeiting VP), has INT:14 and a INT+4 headband -- very few players are going to do this early enough for it to be a done claim over more than a small fraction of the character's lifespan.
A rogue can easily have ten maxed skills at 1st level if he doesn't dump his INT, 11 if he's an elf, and he has Skill Mastery available at 10th -- which is how he'll auto-succeed that UMD:30 check even if harried in combat.
I read what you said about the capstone. We just disagree about how the once is applied.
No we didn't disagree; you just thought I didn't say something when I actually did.
Wizards and bards can both max ranks in over a dozen skills. They also have better out of combat utility.The wizard would end up with a dozen which are mostly inoffensive knowledge skills; the others will be non-class skills whose attendant base stat a wizard isn't usually concerned with and often dumps; the bard will only max a dozen if he is willing to advance Perform in three or more categories for the purposes of Versatile Performance (and obviously doesn't play an archetype forfeiting VP), has INT:14 and a INT+4 headband -- very few players are going to do this early enough for it to be a done claim over more than a small fraction of the character's lifespan.
A rogue can easily have ten maxed skills at 1st level if he doesn't dump his INT, 11 if he's an elf, and he has Skill Mastery available at 10th -- which is how he'll auto-succeed that UMD:30 check even if harried in combat.
I read what you said about the capstone. We just disagree about how the once is applied.No we didn't disagree; you just thought I didn't say something when I actually did.
A rogue only gets 2 more skill points per level than a bard. If the rogue can get 10 then so can the bard. You keep making assumptions about how someone mivht play as if that invalidates what a bard or otber skilled class can do. From my experience rogues don't pump get 12skills so neither of our experiences really matter. What matters is what can and can not be done. I will reply to the fest of your post later.
As for the barbarian commebt I.see you have now changed the.goalpostbut that post is also incorrect factually. A 20th level barbarian can get a 30. He only needs a +29.
20 ranks
circlet of persuasion +3
Skill focus +6
Traitto.make it a class skill +4(+1 trait bonus. +3class skill)
+2 cha mod which couldd be higher.
That is a +35. I am sure there are other ways to.make it higher.
As for evasion it is.ok but most classes that have.it.will make the save.anyway and even those that don't can't take an AoE and live. The AoE could come at a bad time but so can anything else that can kill.you.
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Here is a whip rogue i made and played a while back to level 19. I made it primarily because my friend was complaining about how weak the Rogue is and being a waste to the party. This character is a face character, does decent dpr when there are multiple enemies, does some minor debuffing, can sneak attack almost every round, and has ac comparable to tanks in plate.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Fighter - Lore Warden, Rogue - Thug
-Stats (20 pt)-
STR 28 (Base 15)(+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item)
DEX 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
CON 16 (Base 10)
INT 08 (Base 13)
WIS 10 (Base 10)
CHA 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
AC 41 (+ an addition 4 from combat expertise and an additional 5 from defending for a total of 50, also + 10 more from Offensive Defensive)
Touch 21
Flat - Footed 30
-Class / Feats-
R01 EWP Whip, Dodge
R02 Talent Weapon Training (Weapon Focus Whip)
R03 Whip Mastery
R04 Talent Offensive Defense
F05 Mobility, Spring Attack
F06 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
R07 Dazzling Display
R08 Talent Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
R09 Shatter Defenses
R10 Talent Combat Trick (Lunge)
R11 Skill Focus Intimidate
R12 A Talent Improved Evasion
R13 Persuasive
R14 A Talent Entanglement of Blades
R15 Improved Feint
R16 A Talent Feat (Greater Feint)
R17 Skill Focus Bluff
R18 A Talent Skill Mastery
R19 Deceitful
R20 A Talent (w/e u want)
Traits = Bully, Defensive Strategist
-Gear-
+5 Defending Holy Ghost Touch Whip
+5 Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Shield Cloak
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Natural Armor Necklace
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone)
Belt of Physical Might (Str/Dex)
Headband of Alluring Charisma
-Misc-
Character performs a full-round action intimidate to demoralize all enemy targets within a 30ft radius then proceeds to attack with Whirlwind Lunge Attacks that apply Offensive Defense upon all targets or Entanglement of Blades depending on situation. For single targets move action with a whip attack or full-round action intimidate with full attack next round. Intimidate at cap level is d20+48 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Persuasive +5 Cha +9 Str +1 trait) and bluff is d20+38 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Deceitful +5 Cha).
IMO this has been the best and most fun Rogue ive ever built.
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Because SF:UMD is totally what a barbarian is going to sink a feat into? *snicker* Meanwhile, the rogue doesn't even need it to hit 30 by 10th:
CHA 16 at 1st level (easy enough for any CHA race with a 14 pre-racial as their second- or third-best stat).
...at 1st, you're UMD'ing a happy stick OoC with UMD+7
...at 6th, with Circlet of Persuasion & CHA+2 headband, you're UMD+16
...at 10th, you select Skill Mastery, and UMD = 30.
Not an average of 30, always 30.
There is no longer any 5% failure chance to UMD from rolling a 1 (which renders a magical device unusable for 24hrs).
An INT:14 rogue can apply five skills to Skill Mastery; aside from UMD, other front-runners include Bluff, Disguise, Slight of Hand, and Stealth.
Evasion will save your ass in higher-tier PFS.And then you get hit with horrid wilting. :)
I played that scenario...but it was maximized horrid wilting.
Because SF:UMD is totally what a barbarian is going to sink a feat into? *snicker* Meanwhile, the rogue doesn't even need it to hit 30 by 10th:
Says the guy who thinks skill mastery:UMD at 10 saves the class.
There is no longer any 5% failure chance to UMD from rolling a 1 (which renders a magical device unusable for 24hrs).
Point of clarification:
Rolling a 1 on a UMD only renders it unusable IF it fails.Skills do not have autofail on a 1.
/cevah
I've read the guides. I've read build upon build. Advice sometimes contradictory in nature explaining things about stealth that are no longer relevant or maybe they are and I'm just confused...
Forget that. I wanna make a halfling rogue. Not a ninja. A rogue.
How do I do that and have fun? How do I do that and not feel disappointed at every encounter?
What is fun about rogues? What do you find fun about rogues?
You can be excellent at pretty much any skill or 9-12 of them depending on your build. Have a lot of fun rping, give your rogue real character, wants and a bit of seedy dodginess. Mix in some charm if you wish.
Make sure your build has some combat utility and be sure to laugh at all those saying the rogue is pathetic and useless as you have a great time.
I love rogues, I wish you well.
Here is a whip rogue i made and played a while back to level 19. I made it primarily because my friend was complaining about how weak the Rogue is and being a waste to the party. This character is a face character, does decent dpr when there are multiple enemies, does some minor debuffing, can sneak attack almost every round, and has ac comparable to tanks in plate.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Fighter - Lore Warden, Rogue - Thug-Stats (20 pt)-
STR 28 (Base 15)(+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item)
DEX 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
CON 16 (Base 10)
INT 08 (Base 13)
WIS 10 (Base 10)
CHA 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)AC 41 (+ an addition 4 from combat expertise and an additional 5 from defending for a total of 50, also + 10 more from Offensive Defensive)
Touch 21
Flat - Footed 30-Class / Feats-
R01 EWP Whip, Dodge
R02 Talent Weapon Training (Weapon Focus Whip)
R03 Whip Mastery
R04 Talent Offensive Defense
F05 Mobility, Spring Attack
F06 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
R07 Dazzling Display
R08 Talent Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
R09 Shatter Defenses
R10 Talent Combat Trick (Lunge)
R11 Skill Focus Intimidate
R12 A Talent Improved Evasion
R13 Persuasive
R14 A Talent Entanglement of Blades
R15 Improved Feint
R16 A Talent Feat (Greater Feint)
R17 Skill Focus Bluff
R18 A Talent Skill Mastery
R19 Deceitful
R20 A Talent (w/e u want)Traits = Bully, Defensive Strategist
-Gear-
+5 Defending Holy Ghost Touch Whip
+5 Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Shield Cloak
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Natural Armor Necklace
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone)
Belt of Physical Might (Str/Dex)
Headband of Alluring Charisma-Misc-
Character performs a full-round action intimidate to demoralize all enemy targets within a 30ft radius then proceeds to attack with Whirlwind Lunge Attacks that apply Offensive Defense upon all targets or Entanglement of Blades depending on situation. For single targets move action with a whip attack or full-round action intimidate with full attack next round. Intimidate at cap...
Very nice.
I also like high str rogues.
Because SF:UMD is totally what a barbarian is going to sink a feat into? *snicker* Meanwhile, the rogue doesn't even need it to hit 30 by 10th:
I was going to do it. Once you stop assuming everyone plays cookie cutter builds maybe your arguments will change. I am not saying a rogue is not better suited for UMD. I am only saying you are prrsenting false arguments by making it sound like only rogues can do certain things .
According to your last post I only had to get a minimum of 30 which I did.
There is no longer any 5% failure chance to UMD from rolling a 1 (which renders a magical device unusable for 24hrs).Point of clarification:
Rolling a 1 on a UMD only renders it unusable IF it fails.Skills do not have autofail on a 1.
/cevah
Thanks. I did not even know he made that comment.
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There is no longer any 5% failure chance to UMD from rolling a 1 (which renders a magical device unusable for 24hrs).Point of clarification:
Rolling a 1 on a UMD only renders it unusable IF it fails.Skills do not have autofail on a 1.
/cevah
You're likely to fail most skill checks on a 1; and if that turns off a critical piece of equipment for a day....
Example: a PFS party whose only healing comes from Dangerously Curious and a couple fresh "happy sticks". 550pts of healing should be enough, is their assumption. Their modus operandi is kill stuff fast and heal between encounters (a tried-and-true strategy that usually works for offense-heavy parties). Except this time the first few rolls are "1" and "1", and the GM is paying attention.
* * *
Not that you'd want to fail any skill check while in combat, for that matter, regardless of whether or not the geegaw turns off or blows up in your face.
Halfling rogues are the very best rogues (well, aside from goblin rogues).
-- If you see the halfling; he's probably not a rogue.
Den youse aint seen me yet! (Wich is jus da way I likes it)
Hobgoblin rogues are good value.
Lastly, for low level parties, troll rogues can be HI-LARIOUS.
The cave seems empty, and then a claw reaches out of the darkness and rips your arm off.
Rogues are so weak, so no one has any problems with this right?
Make sure your build has some combat utility and be sure to laugh at all those saying the rogue is pathetic and useless as you have a great timsneak attack .
Until you run into someone with a 50gp potion of Blur. Or that time there was an aberrant you couldn't sneak attack. And the time you all were stuck on a ledge fighting flying dogs, and there was no way to move to get a flank.
And then you run through a certain PFS scenario at fifth level and spend the first combat running in fear, the second combat nauseated, the third combat asleep, and the fourth combat in Darkness unable to sneak attack. And oh yeah, the only trap was detected and avoided by the cleric.
And hey, flanking? You've got a gunslinger and a ranged paladin for the damage dealers. You're stuck doing 1D6 with your short swords. Which is OK really, because while you're maneuvering into position, the paladin and gunslinger just killed everything. It occurs to you that if you had played a bard, you could have cast Haste or Slow, or performed, or done SOMETHING useful.
I love rogues, I wish you well.
I do too. Which is why I'm not going to play them again in Pathfinder.
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Try dropping a few levels of rogue on an advanced will-o-wisp.
Good times. :)
Make sure your build has some combat utility and be sure to laugh at all those saying the rogue is pathetic and useless as you have a great timsneak attack .Until you run into someone with a 50gp potion of Blur. Or that time there was an aberrant you couldn't sneak attack. And the time you all were stuck on a ledge fighting flying dogs, and there was no way to move to get a flank.
And then you run through a certain PFS scenario at fifth level and spend the first combat running in fear, the second combat nauseated, the third combat asleep, and the fourth combat in Darkness unable to sneak attack. And oh yeah, the only trap was detected and avoided by the cleric.
And hey, flanking? You've got a gunslinger and a ranged paladin for the damage dealers. You're stuck doing 1D6 with your short swords. Which is OK really, because while you're maneuvering into position, the paladin and gunslinger just killed everything. It occurs to you that if you had played a bard, you could have cast Haste or Slow, or performed, or done SOMETHING useful.
I love rogues, I wish you well.I do too. Which is why I'm not going to play them again in Pathfinder.
Do you want some special reward for complaining? Every class and build can be countered.
You can't beat flying dogs with a rogue? Jeez man, check your equipment, fall back on your plans to handle such foes. Did you bring anything that could help you take them? What is your bow like? Or did you only bring a short sword? Are you angry there are some thing they can't easily take? Do you want it to visit easy street all the time?
If you can't kill anything with a rogue, you don't know what you are doing. If you think they are stuck only doing 1d6 you are possibly first level or forget that sneak goes up every second level, as you level. You may want to check the class again. I've got a big reveal, it doesn't stay 1d6 for long.
A single short sword? Why aren't you using a scimitar for a start? Have you considered giving your rogue a heftier weapon? I quite like two handed b*stard sword rogues for more damage, it fits with them being b*stards (and that sword is very nasty up close as Talhoffer reveals). Some prefer falchions, which are a whole lot better than a short sword. Short sword is a very weak option.
So yeah, some people don't have much problem with them in combat, their pathetic natures are really overblown. They can also be quite good to challenge parties (as the spellcaster gank examples across multiple dms show). From the shadows they attack!
Try dropping a few levels of rogue on an advanced will-o-wisp.
Good times. :)
I like you. You've got a strange face but I like you.
How to have fun with a rogue?
Play World of Warcraft.
Or play 4E. Or Dungeon World, or GURPS, or Fate Core, or Hero, or Mutants and Masterminds, or True 20, or any of the many other games that give good support for playing a stealth-and-skill based character. But don't bother in Pathfinder.
I'm saying this as someone who's quitting playing a Ninja after more than a year, it's most likely that you'll abandon your rogue after you reach something like fifth level, as the frustrations of trying to play that class build up. I've repeatedly seen people in the local group start playing rogues, and then realize the problems with the class and give up in frustration. I thought I could do better, but then I have to admit they're right.
Also frankly, I'd rather people didn't play a rogue, because if I'm playing in a PFS scenario I want characters that can enable success, not be a load on the party. So if you want skills and face ability, play a bard; if you want combat and stealth play a ranger. But don't waste a slot that can be given to a more effective character.
You couldn't make a ninja work, or have fun with them?
Hahahahahaha, wow, what did you want to do? Be an invisible barbarian? Did you want to smash with ease, soak like a giant hp sponge? You know you can play an inivisible barbarian if you want yeah? If you want a very tricky eastern themed rogue with a set of nice ki powers, relying on the setups to shiv, then try the ninja again.
I played a ninja for a year. Some of the best games I've ever had. Yes, we also fought abberations. Really risky and close to the wire combats, when I didn't just gank them hard from the get-go and solve it early.